More bad news for the Orams

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:28

They lost their appeal.



http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/orams-appeal-rejected/20100716

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:31

Suzie. It was always going to go this way unfortunately.



On another note, are the Orams still in Cyprus?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:39

Its all gone very quite on the Orams front. Nobody seems to know if it was simply rumours about the TRNC paying their legal bills and giving them a "free" property in the TRNC or based on fact.



I'm waiting for the book to be published!!!

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:39

Suzie,

I didnt realise they had another appeal,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:41

I heard that trnc had promised to pay but have ran out of money,

Paul.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:46

I didn't know there was another appeal Paul until I came across the article.Didn't like the final statement from the GC lawyer. Why did it make me think, oh dear, whats next?

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 21:55

It wont happen again, its a thing of the past. What Greek is going to risk being lumped with massive legal costs if at first he takes his case to the IPC and then decides he's not happy with whats been offered so takes his case to the ECHR. Not even Stavros is that daft ) or his he !!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:11

The damage done to the property market in the TRNC by the Orams case is massive. The ECHR case simply hasn't had the same publicity and in any event who would bother reading about it? The publicity on the internet alone as to the non existent legal protection for anyone contemplating buying has increased that damage and will continue to do so. The worldwide financial downturn makes any countries property market a risky investment and research will be the name of the game for anyone with money to invest. That research is hardly going to encourage people to beat a path to the TRNC. That's if they can get to the TRNC.

I know I've asked the question before but just what are those allegedly running the TRNC doing about it?

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:22

Hector..msg 8...."I know I've asked the question before but just what are those allegedly running the TRNC doing about it?"



Absolutely nothing.....and why should they , whilever Turkey continues to fund the nepotistic gravy train?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:27

Cronos.

I think the money has ran out from Turkey,

Paul.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:38

Paul...as perverse as this sounds that may be just the news that is needed to promote much needed change.



With no continual bail out,they'll have to get their house in order and fast !

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:44

I have heard that trnc are being pushed by turkey to go for bi zonal by communal,and Turkey are stemming the endless supply of cash

Paul.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
16/07/2010 23:47

You can't believe everything you hear at the Magic bar ! ;-)

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 08:53

The Oram's memoirs should make good reading when/if it ever comes out, especially any stuff about Mrs Blair and bounced cheques Et Al. A book might give the Orams a new start financially. If they use this forum I hope they will consider publishing a book,

Geoff

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 09:26

the latest Oram's news is about an appeal launched several years ago to challenge the original 2006 Nicosia court judgement on the basis that the summons was in Greek etc. It has taken that long for the ECHR to issue a judgement. Cyprus has signed up to the Human Rights treaty and the ECHR has said that all property claims should go through the IPC, or wait until a settlement, and so Cyprus courts should take this into consideration when judging in similar cases. It's not clear whether they will, or what the implications would be if they didn't, although fines have been mentioned.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 10:23

So they go to the IPC and don't like what they get offered.

What then stops them going to the ECJ?

Do they after the Orams case even need to go to the ECJ as the legal case has already set a president?

Both goverments need to sort out this mess in a fair way for all conserned.



Can anyone confirm if or not the Orams bill did get paid?

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 18:10

Blade



I am sure that one of the government ministers 'promised' that their legal fees would be paid and that they would be provided with another property.



Would a TRNC politician lie ????



Paul

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 18:17

The purpose of the case being taken to the ECJ was solely to determine if the rulings given in the GC courts could be applied in fellow EU states.The ruling by the ECJ was this, although Cyprus does not exercise effective control in northern Cyprus, cases decided in its courts are applicable through European Union law, any future lawsuits would still need to pass firstly through the IPC and then the ECHR.

advocate67


Joined: 05/07/2010
Posts: 20

Message Posted:
17/07/2010 19:20

Isn't the Vice President of the ECHR Greek?!!!

Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 09:17

Orams house still has not been demolished and the land returned to an olive grove as requested so what does that say ???

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 09:46

Does it mean he will still have to buy his olives from the supermarket like the rest of us )

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 11:28

It was a lemon grove, he seems to think that time should have stood still! If it had stayed the same since 1974, it would have become scrub land and the home would have fallen in, as have many on the north side have....

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 11:36

"any future lawsuits would still need to pass firstly through the IPC and then the ECH"

No, after the IPC, if their judgement is rejected, they wait for a settlement

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 11:42

Malsancak....I'm not contradicting what you say,but can you clarify a point?



By "settlement".....do you mean a final solution,in whatever form that may take and whenever it may happen,to the "Cyprus Problem " ?

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 12:02

Paul, message 17.



I think we are thinking along them same lines here.

I will keep asking until I get the answer!

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 12:09

ReMsg 23 No, after the IPC, if their judgement is rejected, they wait for a settlement



No, you are allowed to apply to the ECHR after but only if you have exhausted all local remedies first, or wait for a settlement - However, if applicants wished to lodge an application before the ECHR, its admissibility would be decided in line with the principles laid out in today’s ruling – essentially, all local remedies including the IPC in North Cyprus, must have been exhausted first.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 13:13

Cooper, you are correct. If you do not get satisfaction from the IPC you can use the ECRH. However if the ECHR feel that you were made a fair and just offer, which you refused, then you will pick up all the court costs.



As ever, the problem will not be about compensation, it will be about the return of land for those GC's like Mr A whose sole intent was to make a point, based on what he saw as an ethical argument and a principle and to gain international publicity and provide a legal path for others to follow to get satisfaction.



The ECHR have always emphasised that the property belongs to the displaced person from 1974. Their stance will not change. Although they have reiterated that decisions will be made to safeguard even more people from becoming homeless, so evicting new owners will be avoided where possible, it still puts people who have second homes at risk, as it is doubtful that they will be considered homeless.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 13:23

Let me sum up the position as best I can:

1. As far as ECHR is concerned, GCs may apply to IPC or wait for a settlement, the choice is theirs, sort of Hobson's choice. If they are not happy with the decision of IPC, they have to exhaust the local remedies i.e. they have to go to the High Administrative Court within 75 days. Only after that they can go to ECHR.



2. The decision of ECHR will not stop any GC to go to the courts of ROC in a similar fashion to Apostolides. However, when the plaintiff tries to enforce the judgement in another country like UK, the case will inevitably come before EJC and they may come up with a totally different results to Oram's decision because they may take into account the thinking of ECHR. so any individual may try it but I bet the GC government will not be very keen on it.

ismet

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 13:57

Fiendishpaul.

'I am sure that one of the government ministers 'promised' that their legal fees would be paid and that they would be provided with another property.







Would a TRNC politician lie ???? '





Yes but can the TRNC politician speak on behalf of the Istanbul taxpayer,who in this age of austerity might object to being asked to subsidise British property owners in Cyprus in their court cases or GC compensation claims.

The TRNC had better start to get its house in order instead of presuming the Turkish handouts will last for ever.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 14:49

Ismet wrote "As far as ECHR is concerned, GCs may apply to IPC or wait for a settlement" and then "after that they can go to ECHR."

Who will then tell them to wait for a settlement? A settlement meaning a solution to the "Cyprus Problem."

As I understood it Cyprus, as a signator of the 1998 Human Rights Act, has to take the ECHR's judgement into account in its local courts. This means that using local courts should end up with the same decision. The problem for a GC would be that if a local court NOW was to make an Orams type decision and that was then taken to the UK courts there is a high probability of such a move failing with the resultant high costs to the GC. They are not prevented from doing this but the ECHR now says that the rights of the occupant and owner have to both be taken into account and they seem to have judged that the IPC is the best place for this!

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 16:41

Here is a link so we can all keep tabs on how many are applying to the IPC - http://www.northcyprusipc.org/

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 17:06

Good link cooper.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/07/2010 17:30

Good link Cooper,



I wonder what was meant by agreed restitution upon a settlement? Is there any way of knowing if the GC has been compensated for the land/property you now own?