trnc possible new federal state

Jo Valentine


Joined: 10/02/2008
Posts: 508

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 18:32

TRNC STARTS TO DRAFT DETAILS OF POSSIBLE NEW FEDERAL STATE



In anticipation of bilateral negotiations on the future of Cyprus, the government of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC) has started to prepare draft details of a possible new federation state. The model will be based on the Zurich and London Agreements. Under the model, a Greek Cypriot would be president for three years, with a Turkish Cypriot vice president, to be followed by a Turkish Cypriot serving as president for one year. The Greek Cypriot administration, however, reportedly favors a system under which the president is always a Greek Cypriot and the vice president is always a Turkish Cypriot. /Cumhuriyet/



TurkishPress.com Tuesday August 5th 2008.



Comments, anyone ?



Regards

Jo Valentine

Highleygray


Joined: 05/05/2008
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 19:42

I would have thought that sounds far too much like the original 1960 agreement, with all its failings

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 20:21

Highleygray,

Would that be the London and Zurich agreement in 1960 when Cyprus where declared to be an independent state,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 20:52

msg 2,



I think the crucial issue is the future constitution, not the presidential figureheads.

windmill


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
05/08/2008 22:17

pike and Susanne are the same person

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 02:55

windmill is me.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 09:02

Perhaps they are clones.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 09:29

If they do not come up with a new constitution the ‘Republic of Cyprus’ will still be an illegal state.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 09:32

I'm confused - is Windmill Pike?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 09:34

I'm Spartacus!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 20:41

Hail Caesar!

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 21:47

I,m Marcus Brutus watch your back

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 23:19

And i thought the original topic was a very interesting talking point,

Paul.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
06/08/2008 23:54

Just to get back on track Paul....



http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews+articleid_2467444&title=In_Cyprus_Warm_Words.html

sunstroker


Joined: 04/09/2007
Posts: 20

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 00:34

Wasn't the right answer to message 11 - no I'm spartacus

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 02:01

bradus msg11,



This article you highlight was discussed elsewhere. The writer needs to do his homework if he thinks the Green Line went up in 1964. However, he makes some interesting points:



"...the fate of more than 100,000 backward, aggressively nationalistic and devoutly Islamic Turkish settlers. They were shipped in from the mainland and given citizenship to tilt the demographic balance in Turkey's favour, and to keep the more secular and democratically-minded Turkish Cypriots in their place. (There are already more Turks than Turkish Cypriots living in the North, and, boy, do the Turkish Cypriots hate it.)

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 18:26

Trouble sleeping Eric? (07/08/2008 00:01)

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
07/08/2008 18:36

I'm rarely in my bed by midnight but I'm always up at the crack of dawn.



Is 00.01 past Ovaltine time for some?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 10:01

It is for me during the week, when I'm up at 5am!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 18:39

messg 17 private pike,



erm....

thought the turkish settlers arrived on cyprus

after many native north cypriots had been forced

to seek work overseas, in london, melbourne etc

by the isolations engineered by the south,

resulting in an acute labour shortage and as a result,

gave turkey yet another reason to defend the trnc



quiz time



make a well-known phrase or saying fom these words:



in yourself foot to the shoot



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 19:45

andre



you white collar boys are razor sharp ......l.....o......l.









regards

musin

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 20:49

andre,



Are you talking about the native Turkish Cypriots forced to emigrate because of the isolation and economic hardship brought upon them by the Turkish puppet Denktas - who was forced to step down - and his unlamented regime? The regime that brought the settlers in and eroded their own distinct Cypriot culture after Denktas declared the only native Cypriot was the donkey?



I think your white collar needs a bit of Persil.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 21:52

Pikey my wife is also called dawn.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 22:11

eric

are you now blaming the turkish cypriot goverment not the turkish goverment.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 22:45

hi private pike,



didn't know that interesting anecdote about donkeys

and you must be far better informed about denktas than me

all I could is observe that under his leadership

somehow north cyprus survived



and...

you say his regime was "unlamented"

unlamented by whom?

I thought he was something of a national hero



without wishing to be personal

I think that like that little donkey working away,

your vision might be

"just a little bit" blinkered



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
08/08/2008 23:01

andre



rauf denktas is a national hero.









musin

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 02:13

pike

andre is talking about the tc's forced to emigrate because of the isolation and hardship brought upon them by greece and south cyprus not denktas or are we all mistaken that he applied all the embargos on the north!!!! and because turkey interviened to help the tc's they thought they cant touch turkey so they would do the next best thing by making the tc's suffer great idea!!!!!

and him being a puppet to turkey is a joke, when the anan plan was being drawn up turkey was at the forefront in trying to persuade denktas in saying yes when all along he was saying no and belive you me he was his own man

and one of the reasons he stepped down was because of this reason and that his party suffered heavy loses in the elections in 2003 because the north cypriot people belived they would also get e.u citizenship when cyprus joined the e.u in 2004 and this would end the darkness they we all sufering how wrong were they!!!!

so like what musin said denktas is well respected and a hero in what he done for north cyprus especially in the early years when everything was against north cyprus poltically and morally and still is!!!!

ukturk



long live k.k.t.c and its people aswell as the people who are guests

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 09:32

RE EricSeanspoulos : (...) the Turkish puppet Denktas (...)



1 : Mr. Rauf Denktaş was an elected President - by the TC population. 2 : You managed to live in TRNC for about ten years during his Presidency. 3 : As a foreigner (like me) you should at least show respect for this man, who was not afraid to risk his life for this part of the island. Shame on you - again.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 11:38

He's a very nice man, he presented me with a darts trophy about six weeks ago. I told him I was very proud to shake his hand. He is owed a great deal by all who live in the North. He bravely stood up against the tyranny of the South, when others might have caved in. His experience of dealing first hand with the so-called political leaders of the South is greater than anyone's, and his views should be respected

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 12:54

newlad: "Pikey my wife is also called dawn."



Someone got the joke then. But I thought you were widowed...?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 12:57

MUSIN: "eric are you now blaming the turkish cypriot goverment not the turkish goverment?"



I helped you out with some punctuation. Anyway, are you seriously saying the TC government can make any meaningful decisions without the permission of their controllers and paymasters, Turkey?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 13:01

MUSIN: "rauf denktas is a national hero."



Perhaps he still is among Turkish settlers and the lower educated. To progressive, intelligent TCs - and indeed the TRNC leadership - he is a bad memory best forgotten. You represent the dinosaur generation.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 13:08

andre: "hi private pike,

didn't know that interesting anecdote about donkeys

and you must be far better informed about denktas than me"



Stick around kid and I'll lift the scales form your eyes.



"all I could is observe that under his leadership

somehow north cyprus survived"



Which proves you really do have much to learn. North Cyprus became impoverished and isolated under Denktas' "leadership". He is viewed by almost all serious analysts of the Cyprus problem as the biggest obstacle to settlement for far too long. His removal was not before time.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 13:12

ukturk,



I'm surprised anyone who considers themselves Turkish Cypriot can call a man who did so much to damage their cause a "hero". I respect him for his legendary ability to eat 38 shaftali at one sitting without barfing, but nothing else.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 13:24

Dutch Crusader: "Shame on you - again."



Well, shame on you for not having the journalistic credentials to comment with any seriousness on the Cyprus conflict.



Suffice to say the BBC piece below, written when Denktas was on his way out, sums up the views of most of us in the job then and now:



Rauf Denktash, whose intransigence and refusal to compromise have been blamed for scuppering countless initiatives to solve the Cyprus problem, is finally standing down after more than half a century in politics.



Mr Denktash has long been a familiar hate figure amongst Greek Cypriots, but more recently he has been criticised by his own Turkish Cypriot community for his inflexibility and what many see as a failure to modernise or adapt to changing circumstances.



Journalists encountering Mr Denktash for the first time frequently complained that they had to listen to a lecture on the island's political history before business could begin.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4449869.stm

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 14:23

RE EricSeanspoulos : (...) Well, shame on you for not having the journalistic credentials to comment with any seriousness on the Cyprus conflict. (..)



And this from YOU, a journalist hiding behind his computer and a handful of nicknames, because you "fear for the safety of my family". Shooting poisonous arrows at anything TRNC. Pathetic.



PS. I accept your invitation to discuss the "CyProb" in public, face to face, names to faces, in TRNC, whenever you want. Your chance to show what you say I don't know.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 17:11

pike

people who are northern cypriots dont consider they are northern cypriot !!!

you really should not be surprised that denktas is considerd to be a important person in northern cypriot history from when he co formed the reistance to counter the eoka terrosrists to modern day where he developed north cyprus the best he could under the circumstances

and in your quote which was reported by tabitha morgan who is well known to be pro greek writes for hrt aswell posts a lot of threads on south cypriot forums that the south hates him well they would because he was the leader of the north the same could be said about papadoplous who was a active and heavly connected member of the eoka

your quote that every reporter shares the same view of denktas let me guess you have spoken to every single reporter on this aswell as every tc



by all means post your views to your hearts content but dont ever think that your views a outsider is shared by the majority of us turkish cypriots, for every 2 people who agree with you i will show you 20 who dont and if you dont belive me for starters we could start a new thread on people who agree with your views on this forum

one thing i do take my hat of to you is the way you manage to drag people in to a debate which goes completly off the subject at hand

ukturk

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 18:15

pvte pike,



I admire your tenacity

and can make a reasonable guess at your point of view

and "where you are coming from":

nationalist south cyprus, if not physically, then sympathetically!



but your boldness in setting out such a wealth

of one-sided and monotonously hostile material

of which there has been a lot prepared it is perfectly true

can only ever exist as a dissenting voice

in a bulletin board primarily occupied by strong supporters of

and diverse stakeholders in the trnc



it is unlikely that you will achieve your minimum objective

(I am making a shrewd guess)

of spreading alarm and denting confidence in trnc property

this is partly because the economic and political situation

in the north is ropey enough without further sectarian jibes,

and partly because for all your erudition you have never

stated the real reason for all your time and effort:

ie could you be an altruist, a charitable individual

who simply yearns to inform those of us less than aware,

purely from the goodness of your heart?

or perhaps you think the so-called republic of cyprus

should peacefully take back control of north cyprus,

by a method that currently eludes my modest understanding

whatever the current negociators may or not agree?



it is even less likely you could acheive your maximum objective

which I again have to imagine, since you dare not make it explicit,

to change the views of those subscribing or just casually surfing "44"

because people on this board are stubborn or determined

call it bloody-minded if you will...

and as our most outspoken and persistent hostile voice

for all the textual detail you exhume,

your personal motives and individual profile are as closeted,

as your critisicms of the trnc, turkey and the ottomans are blunt



I may be a bit naive

but among the greek cypriot community there looks to be

a very gradual coming-to-terms with reality on the ground

for example a recent opinion poll in the south revealed

that half of gc's would accept cash compensation

rather than ever think they would be able to or even want to

really want to live in a land now sadly foreign to them

although any guarded optimism must be qualified

by the gc's continuing mantra that turkish cypriots

are "welcome" to go home to their lost villiages in the south

you would know they would not currently welcome at all

I've seen my tc taxi driver sworn at by security guards at larnaca:

now what would that suggest?



there was once a bloke on the wireless called "lord haw-haw"

who saw it as his role to rubbish the allies and decent people

and I feel, and I say this with all due respect,

you may well be the modern incarnation of this radio broadcaster

although the actual job vacancy itself,

terminated in 1945 amongst the ruins and rubble of berlin

somewhat "overwhelmed and superseded by events",

as it were



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 18:46

eric

hi mate msg 32 i want to thank you for the punctuation lesson i have taken it on board and will try to do a lot better in the future .

one good deed deserves another ,so i would like to do something for you ,

stop being an a..e, debate if you have too even though its one way ,im sure you are frustrated ,as you cannot debate with such bias in the north ,but taking

out your frustration on the board members does not help ,prehaps you should

move too the south where they will listen to what you say and hang on your every word.

my good deed for you ,some advise," animosity breeds more animosity becareful how you fornicate.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 19:01

andre



i repeat "sharp" on the button ,oh and the puctuation was too.







kind regards

musin

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 01:17

When I first came to N.Cyprus in 1999 I had a taxi driver

who spoke very good English. When I asked him if he was

Turkish Cypriot he replied that he was 'Cypriot' I have never

forgot him.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 11:00

ukturk,



Denktas is an important figure in N Cyp politics, I agree. However history had and will continue to show he was an agitator for intercommunal violence and separatism who damaged the TC cause through decades of isolation and insincerity at negotiations.



"...was reported by tabitha morgan who is well known to be pro greek..."



Among hardline Turkish nationalists who don't hear what they want to hear, maybe. Has the BBC acted against any complaints of bias? No? They must be pro-Greek as well, eh?



"...your quote that every reporter shares the same view of denktas let me guess you have spoken to every single reporter on this aswell as every tc..."



Yet again you haven't read my post properly and are misquoting. Where did I ever say this? At least I am consistent and (I hope) accurate in what I say in my postings.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 11:07

andre: "...and "where you are coming from": nationalist south cyprus, if not physically, then sympathetically..."



So your intelligent observation is that because I don't buy your selective version of history then I must be some kind of agent for the GCs? Do I detect the old TRNC paranoia again? What a strange world you must inhanit if you don't think there are people out there capable of independent thought and analysis.



"I've seen my tc taxi driver sworn at by security guards at larnaca: now what would that suggest?"



It could suggest any number of things, as a fourth form schoolboy would tell you. But it's clearly one for airing on Panorama.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 11:10

phlray: "...I have never forgot him."



Sorry to bring this up again, but could you remind me of your accreditation for being a teacher of English, as you describe yourself?

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 13:01

pvt pike:



(my) "selective version of history"...but of course!!!

who was it who once said:

"ideology is disguised self-interest" ?



in other words what you believe,

is closely bound up with what you want for you and yours



why go around pretending that any form of history isn't selective?

at school in britain in the 1950's the history was all about india

yes, it was meant to be "objective" and "fair to all sides"



as regards the taxi driver incident,

I did worry afterwards that it might sound patronising,

but then again he is probably better off than me



like one of jesus' parables, the swearing incident

may or may not have actually happened

or may have occured in a different form entirely



but is highly significant

and will strike a deep emotional chord with anyone

who has any knowledge of cyprus

or felt they have experienced any form of discrimination

for one of a thousand reasons



as far as the greek cypriot victims of the cyprus civil war go

they must have been badly traumatised in 1974:

taught from birth they should promote their culture and people

to dominate all others on the island,

and then at short notice be oblidged to unscew their treasured ikons

from the ikonostases and hop into a un truck for an uncertain fate



hence the tradition of "denial"

the gramaphone record of contradicting reality on the ground,

a warm glow to be sure but no hope of living together at peace



phylray mentions in an anecdote that the guy said he was "cypriot"

this is a form of self-defined identity that can be built on...

provided there is security and opportunity for all communities

on the island, and an end to blockades and propagandising



andre

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 13:10

andre,



Much of what you say is perfectly true as regards selective history. I'm not quite sure about what you are specifically saying in the N Cyp context. Give me an example.



"...and then at short notice be oblidged to unscew their treasured ikons

from the ikonostases and hop into a un truck for an uncertain fate."



Maybe you've forgotten the much documented and well publicised reports of desecration and looting of Church icons after the Turkish invasion, much of which later turned up on the international market. You need a reality check if you think GCs had time to do things like uncsrew icons. Survival was uppermost in most people's minds.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 13:46

private pike,



both my unsubstantiated remark of unknowable veracity,

as well as your "publicised reports" of looted items sold on,

serve to illustrate very much the same point:

the greek cypriot militants and leadership disturbed a sleeping tiger

and while suffering from the "results" of their own actions

ie the 1974 turkish peace operation and de facto partition of the island

are now in the position of having choose whether to

acknowledge politically and in negociation the consequences

of their domineering performance in the 60's and early 70's...



while nobody could underestimate their suffering even though

a case could be made for them "having shot themselves in the foot"

the desolation they face over the loss of their churches

or to quote emperor hirohito of japan to "endure the unendurable"

if their leading actors really want a peace deal this time around,

it's an essential part of the process



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 16:17

andre

i read your posts with great concentration,its just so nice to read on the subject matter from someone who writes straight down the middle an unbiased opinion, neither turkish nor greek ,a breathe of fresh air mate

well done .





kind regards

musin

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 01:14

pike



your quote "Suffice to say the BBC piece below, written when Denktas was on his way out, sums up the views of most of us in the job then and now"



and i asked you how do you know this is the view of most of you unbiased reporters out there let me guess you have spoken to them all??



"he was an agitator for intercommunal violence and separatism who damaged the TC cause through decades of isolation and insincerity at negotiations"



in what history books does it show he was a agitator and where is the proof? yes he was a founder member of the resinstance to counter the eoka and if this movement did do anything wrong (cant say cos i was not there) was denktas there commiting these acts?

he did not damage the tc thru isolation these human rights acts were placed on the tc by the south and greece and again negotiations is not a one way street both leaders played their part not just denktas do you honestly think he wanted his people to be left in the dark what benifts did he gain from this



yet again you have not read my post properly who said the bbc was pro greek and im just stating a fact that tabitha is pro greek that she posts on a lot of south cypriot forums aswell as doing pieces for the hrt

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 02:28

andre: "private pike,



both my unsubstantiated remark of unknowable veracity,

as well as your "publicised reports" of looted items sold on,

serve to illustrate very much the same point:

the greek cypriot militants and leadership disturbed a sleeping tiger

and while suffering from the "results" of their own actions

ie the 1974 turkish peace operation and de facto partition of the island are now in the position of having choose whether to

acknowledge politically and in negociation the consequences

of their domineering performance in the 60's and early 70's."



If by this you mean the coupists scored the biggest-ever own goal for Greek Cyprus on July 15, 1974, then I agree totally. Unfortunately those who overthrew the government in 1974 were not representative of all GCs. However, the majority population which found itself divided was united five days later when Turkey invaded and split the island. Cypriot irony.