The Limnitis Crossing.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 12:57

Yesterday 58 bus loads of turkish Cypriots crossed the Limnitis crossing to pay homage at the Kokkina enclave.Is it true that the Greek Cypriots are not allowed to cross over the same border.And if so why,

Regards,

Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 16:00

Yes Newlad, it is true that the greek cypriots are not allowed to cross.It all dates back to August 1960 when a bitter battle took place.And to this day the turkish Cypriots still hold on to the village of Kokkina.Although plans are in the offing to allow greek cypriots to cross over.This would significantly reduce the distance to Nicosia.Hope this helps,

Best regards.

jock1



Joined: 06/01/2008
Posts: 3786

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 16:55

Your MAD I TELL YOU MAAAAAD...

dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
09/08/2008 18:23

When I read of events like those at Erenkoy (Kokkina) it makes me wonder how on earth Turkish Cypriots can ever think of trusting Greek Cypriots again.

The Turkish Cypriot population was forced to cram into enclaves that covered just 3% of the island!

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 14:38

Hi All,

I can only find the greek cyp version of events in which they say that Turk cypriot forces used napalm on Greek cypriots.This is actually on a b.b.c. site called on this day,

Regards,

Paul.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 19:44

The village now called Erenkoy was defended by villagers, students and a group of volounteers from Turkey. In addition to a large number of women and children who were unable to escape before the unprovoked attack.



Against them was a contingent of Greek Army and GC Army armed with heavy artillery. They had over run the local UN camps prior to the attack.



The village held on until the Turkish airforce came and attacked the armies at which point they all ran away.



A Turkish pilot Cenkis Topol was shot down and captured by the GC. He was tortured and beaten to death before his body was dumped and later retrieved. There is now a very good memorial and a hospital named after him.



In respect of this event on August 8th 1964 full honours are given to the day here with a visit to the enclave. In past years the visit was done by sea but dispensation was given for land entry.



The enclave remains in the hands of the Turkish military in honour of all those brave civilians who fought there. I do not think it will ever return to Greek Cypriot hands.



That is the best interpretaion I can give especially in a small space.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
10/08/2008 21:39

Cyprusishome,

Thanks for that.The version of events that you give is totally different to the ones that the b.b.c. say happened though.Have a look on "guns fall silent in cyprus".Where suggestions are made that napalm was used by the Turkish army,

Best Regards,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 02:36

Newlad,



You are quite correct that Turkey attacked Cyprus with napalm over this incident. It also intrigues me that in each passing year the number of veterans of Kokkina/Erenkoy not only seems to increase, but the individuals themselves appear to look younger.

wearytravellers



Joined: 27/04/2007
Posts: 250

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 09:01

Have a look at some of the videos on Youtube about the Cyprus split, VERY interesting and informative.........some videos pure propaganda though.

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 09:09

Its a sad fact of History that Napalm was an accepted weapon at the time. Probably still is for some people. Once the necessity for intervention arose then it was probably an effective weapon.



In my view deplorable but I was not making the decicions at the time.



Sad for those who lost lives on both sides, sadder for the civilians if you can rank feeliings.



Paul

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:39

Pikey,

Do you have concete evidence that Napalm was actually used in this attack,as i can only find the greek side of the story so would like to keep an open mind until convinced otherwise,

Regards,

Paul.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 23:22

the only image I have is of of the Turkish airman that was brutalised by people that were not TC or Turkish. The photograph of his body bears testiment to this.



I have yet to see bodies of GC similarly damaged and alleged to be attributed to Tc or Turkish military.



If you have not visited the cemetary in the middle of Old Nicosia then do so, I challenge you not to shed a tear.

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 23:25

Turkey did not attack Cyprus.



As Cyprus has TWO EQUAL owners GCs and TCs, an attack of Turkey against the GC and Greek terrorists cannot be considered an attack on Cyprus,



except by GCs, that think that they are the only owners of Cyprus.



I cannot believe the barbarity of the Greek propaganda machine against people that have the same dances, music and food.



The true fact about the Erenkoy Resitance is that Greek Occupation forces numbering up to 15 Thousand, plus Tens of Thousands of Greek Cypriot terrorists, fully equipped with artilerries, Gun Boats and Tanks, were attacking against a few hundred, poorly equipped and trained University Student Turkish Cypriots.



Had Turkey not made a peace intervention in 1964, to Stop the GC and Greek Barbarians from exterminating our whole University Educated Youth, we would have been sent back to middle ages.



The Greek Propaganda machine has no shame in defending its terrorist actions even in a case like this where a simple question would suffice to blow their arguments:



What were the 12,000 Greek Occupation Soldiers from Greece, doing unlawfully in Cyprus, attacking Turkish Cypriot Owners of the Island as uninvited barbaric foreigners?



-----



Newlad, Unfortunately, our side lacks the capability of informing even the foreigners living in North Cyprus about the Turkish Cypriot history.



We are so righteous in the Cyprus problem that most TCs think, even if we do not struggle in getting our side of the story known, The people of the world would yet see that we are the unjustly treated party.



That of course is wrong.



There are tens of books in Turkish as the memoirs of Turkish Cypriot Freedom Fighters, that left their Universities and came to Erenkoy to protect their motherland against Greek invadors and their Greek Cypriot collaborationists.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 23:52

hi guys

a question for you all ,how and who started the events and why,ask yourselves

this and come too your own assumptions.







regards

musin

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
13/08/2008 23:06

Hi All,

Are there plans to open the crossing for both tukish and greek cypriots to use,

Paul.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 07:33

Strange question, of course it would be open to all to use. I would hazard a guess that the majority who use it will be GC anyway.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 09:33

"You are quite correct that Turkey attacked Cyprus with napalm over this incident. It also intrigues me that in each passing year the number of veterans of Kokkina/Erenkoy not only seems to increase, but the individuals themselves appear to look younger. "



Quite the cynic aren't we Eric? Have you not heard of the Boots 'wonder cream?'

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 09:55

Author: Gibbons, Harry Scott

Title: The Genocide Files

Bookseller Book No.: DDDD0796

Price: £ 18.00



This book is now out of print but if you can get hold of a copy then do as it covers the whole history of the original cyprus conflict not simply the relatively recent 1974 intervention.



Harry Scott Gibbons is a scottish journalist who lived on the Island to cover the middle east and he got caught up in it all.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 11:28

Susanne,

What about gcs when they need to travel to nicosia.wouldnt the opening considerably cut down on the travelling time,

Regards,

Paul.

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 13:32

There are a lot of GC who come across at Bostanci cos that is their "home area". If this one is opened for many it is closer and more readily availble for those form Polis etc.



I certainly cannot see many TC's from that area going south.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
14/08/2008 23:02

Wireless,

Thanks for the info on Harry Scott Gibbons,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/08/2008 16:31

Paul,



Don't touch the book with a bargepole. No international publisher would for good reason.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
15/08/2008 16:36

Pikey,

Please expand,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
15/08/2008 16:41

Paul,



1. The writer only supplies references from one side.

2. It was only published thanks to a Turkish hand-out via Denktas.

3. The writer substitues fact for opinion.



You're unlikely to ever find a better example of blatant propaganda. It's laughably bad, but some people are easily impressed.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
15/08/2008 19:45

Pikey,

You havent made that last statement with your gc cap on have you matey,

Regards,

Paul.

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
16/08/2008 10:24

You have clearly never read the book, the events in the book are documented and referenced on all sides.



Yes there is opinion however as someone who was born on the Island and lived through the history documented in the book it is also in my memory.



The streets, events, towns are all factual and to my own memory correct.



If it was simply propaganda then the greeks would not have fought tooth and nail to ban it which they did. That fact itself tells you it must contain substance.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/08/2008 13:39

Wireless: "...the events in the book are documented and referenced on all sides..."



That is wrong. The references are only Turkish. Hardly balanced is it?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
16/08/2008 13:49

Paul: "Pikey, You havent made that last statement with your gc cap on have you matey."



I don't wear caps for either side. You aked for advice and I gave it. Rea msg 25 again. What I've stated is fact which you could easily find out for yourself. The book is utterly one-sided. If for example you were buying a house, would you believe everything in the seller's estate agent-funded brochure? Or would you commission independent advice and do your own research to get the real picture? You don't have to answer that last question. The number of gullible expat fools in the TRNC is enormous. Those who take this book seriously are equally gullible and foolish.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
17/08/2008 22:54

Pikey,

I fully take on board your comments.I will read the book and make up my own mind,

Regards,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/08/2008 01:53

No probs

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
24/08/2008 14:55

Pikey,

My mind stays open on the cyprus issue,as i believe that atrocities were commited by both sides.As are in all wars,so in my opinion the Cyprus problem is no different.One piece that does stick in the throat though is the Akritas plan,which was percieved as a plan to exterminate all Turkish Cypriots.



This was something that was hatched in 1963 and involved the stripping of weapons from the Turkish police.eoka terrorists formed an alliance with the greek cypriot police and systematically attacked and killed innocent Turkish Cypriot people.



Im sure that there will have been instances were similar things will have happened involving turk cyps attacking greeks in a similar way but dont you think that its time to say enough is enough.These atrocities happened over forty years ago.By all means remember them in prayer and dont sweep it under the carpet.But i do feel that now is the time to move on,starting within the schools.Educate the kids in the correct manner and not through propaganda whether it be greek or turkish,

Enjoy your day,

Paul.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
24/08/2008 14:59

nicely put ,Paul

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
24/08/2008 15:08

"You are quite correct that Turkey attacked Cyprus with napalm over this incident. It also intrigues me that in each passing year the number of veterans of Kokkina/Erenkoy not only seems to increase, but the individuals themselves appear to look younger. "



Ermmm - probably the relatives and offspring of the inhabitants; numbers tend to swell with each generation as per Malthus.



Given that our clan ("diliyoro" - currently highest concentration of whom are at Yeni Erenkoy) is growing perhaps that would explain the increase in persons commemorating the resistance there. After all, we're interested in where our forbears defended themselves on our ancestral lands.

bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
24/08/2008 15:59

Well said Newlad.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
25/08/2008 12:49

Msg 34,



Fair enough, but I thought the whole point of meaningful commemoration was having veterans only there and not turning it into a family outing.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
25/08/2008 13:11

Pikey,

I see remembering the dead as a very moving moment especially if you have lost your own loved ones in a particular conflict.In Britain on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month we still (and believe we always should)remember our dead.Wether you are 8 or 80 i strongly believe that people who were killed in action should be remembered.But after the rememberence you then move on and try and put the conflicts to the back of your mind,

Regards,

Paul.

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
25/08/2008 13:22

Msg 36,



Bit of an odd comment from you Pikey. You normally show some thought and sensitivity on these matters.



Why shouldn't the offspring and relatives, indeed anyone who just cares, attend the ceremony? What makes it any less meaningful by having non-veterans there? People are commemorating an heroic resistance to a brutal onslaught



How many would attend poppyday if that kind of limitation was enforced?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/08/2008 14:43

you write very well Lambousa Gordon.



good point Paul

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
30/08/2008 21:10

Some excellent contributions to the debate. Very thought provoking.



Rememberance services are about one thing......Lest we forget.



Would that not be a good basis to move forward to The September 3rd. negotiations?



wyn

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
31/08/2008 08:59

I think the TC’s got the knock when they asked again for a small piece of land to relieve certain pressures on the TC’s in Pile – hope I spelt that right.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
31/08/2008 13:51

Newlad: "But after the rememberence you then move on and try and put the conflicts to the back of your mind."



Sounds like you're saying they should stop going to Kokkina evey year. I'm not saying I don't disagree with you.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
31/08/2008 13:53

Gordon: "How many would attend poppyday if that kind of limitation was enforced?"



That's my whole point. Poppy Day commemorates all our conflicts since the Great War.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/10/2008 20:57

Is this border still closed,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 01:02

You can swim it for a day trip if you want. I know someone who did. ;-)

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 20:39

Pikey,

Is that a yes then,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/10/2008 23:46

Paul,



Believe me you would have heard if this checkpoint had been opened. It hasn't. But it can be bypassed easily.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 20:43

Pikey,

Has it been closed since 74.Did your mate really swim around bet that was both knackering as well as a buzz,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/10/2008 22:57

Paul,



Yes, closed since 1974 and I think a couple of people killed by landmines in the area since then. OK, the swimmer was me. It's not a bad way to go if there isn't much swell. Just round the rock and a little further gets you onto the beach at Pyrgos which is a pleasant sort of resort town with a pebbly beach. I just waded ashore among the other bathers and went for a souvlaki kebab (I was mega starving) then a lie in the sun before heading back. I won't be flippant though and would add that only strong swimmers with a disregard for authority should try this.

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
03/08/2010 22:16

Wow all this correspondenc\e a year ago. Next Sunday is the day again. How many coaches this year, I wonder? Relatives, survivors, veterans, plus the curious will equal how many coaches?

I for one, am among the 'curious' and no matter what side of the 'conflict' one may have been on in the past, this is a place of history and one should be allowed to see the museum, and feel the spirit of the place. And then share with others in the hopes that full, understanding may be made of history . But don't think I will swim to Pyrgos for lunch! Been there already.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 00:16

msg47/48

wrong guys by 10 years its closed since 1964

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 18:38

Sorry Tracer if I was not clear. I know it is closed, and I don't know when Spikey Pikey swam over - I have no intention of so doing - I am going by bus on one of tghe 58 that went last year.



Sorry if I confused. I still feel that should someone want to go that they should be allowed to see this piece of history. The reason that these visits are made is BECAUSE it has been closed.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 19:30

not for you maz the comment was for msgs47 and 48 this road is been closed since 1964 not 1974 .



ps : if you want visit do so the way you like it (prefer the bus is easier)

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 20:20

Sorry I misunderstood Tracer! Definitely the bus is easier. Safe in the hands of the U.N. and dignitaries (of which I am not one). I want to live a bit longer, as well as being informed, educated and 'excited' of and by the country's past. And of course, being female, I am curious, like any other pussy cat (Cheshire or otherwise).

mrjolly


Joined: 04/08/2010
Posts: 4

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 20:22

Harry Scott Gibbons=dodgy



strong anti-communist/fascist leanings



polarised by John Pilger



good luck finding anything from a balanced [humanist?] perspective

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 20:42

maz

to be informed and not misinformed you must hear both sides and make your Conclusions.

(I want to live a bit longer) as a pussy cat?

joke: what curiosity does to the cat ?

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 21:50

I still have eight of my nine lives as a cat in tact. And I think I am pretty informed, having lived in the south for two years and done my research. But an opportunity to SEE a part of history is not to be missed.



Conclusions are very difficult to come by - even with the best research in the world, but on the other hand prejudice, bias and judgement are easy- and best avoided.



But agree with you ENTIRELY. I feel that EVERYONE should seek and search for the truth of any situation and judge everything you hear and read before deciding where truth lies, or in other words to take everything with a PACKET of salt.



Seeing Erenkoy has little to do with conclusions.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 22:01

Mrjolly



What is wrong with strong anti-communist leanings?



Have you met Harry Scott Gibbons?



If so



I'm sure he thinks highly of you.

expatlady


Joined: 11/07/2010
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 22:28

Another book that has been recommended is Pierre Oberling, "The Road to Bellapais: The Turkish Cypriot Exodus to Northern Cyprus".



It was published by Colombia University Press (=peer reviewed), in 1982, and can still be bought through http://www.abebooks.com/

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
04/08/2010 23:03

May I also sudgest the following paperworks by Oberling.



NEGOTIATING FOR SURVIVAL ,

http://www.atcanews.org/archive/Negotiating%20For%20Survival.pdf



THE DOUBLE REPRESENTATION CONSPIRACY: HOW THE GREEK AND GREEK CYPRIOT GOVERNMENTS ARE PRECIPITATING A NEW CRISIS IN CYPRUS BY USING THE EUROPEAN UNION

http://www.tcn-cy.freeuk.com/oberling.htm



also the book The Cyprus tragedy by Pierre Oberling

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 00:49

Thanks. Interesting literature. Ihave glanced at it, but will read more fully later, but Oberling seems very interesting indeed. Thanks again.

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 01:27

thanks for that - and yes it is very interesting

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 09:11

msg 56

prejudice, bias and judgement



maz i want to believe that idont have all those virtues.

on the other hand nobody is perfect



you know..........who is with no sin let him cast the first stone

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 09:41

When you are reading any book by Pierre Oberling, please bear in mind he believes there was no Armenian Genocide !



His stance is VERY pro TR .. not objective..

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 12:16

oH DEAR TRACER. If the cap fits, wear it. I wasn't saying YOU were any of these things,l but was speaking objectively. Just about every writer has a bias,- even the best historians present history the way they want, and that is why I honestly believe tobe truly informed one has to read and listen WIDELY.



As for casting stones (didn't know you were a Bible scholar) - agree entirely. One is liable to break the windows of one's own house, or even of one'/s own soul!



And to mmmmmm - confirmation of what I said about historians - of course there was an Armenian Genocide, but as they say'The truth is out there' and I am off to search. Coming??????

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 12:36

Yeah m6, any one who thinks different then GC propaganda machine is directly considered as pro TR. Everything he wrote in his books and articles are very well referenced with different sources.

You should live that to people to decide pro or not, after all people have brains.



'bear in mind he believes there was no Armenian Genocide ! ', so does professors like Dankwart Rustow, Tibor Halasi-Kun, J.C. Hurewitz, Avigdor Levy, Stanford Shaw, Frank Tachau, Bernard Lewis, Heath Lowry, Justin McCarthy, Alan Fischer ve Roderick Davison and many more of them.



http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/69histors.htm



I would sudgest to anyone to just examine every part of this web page.



http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/index.htm



I don't want to start up a new debate here at all. Anyone interested can go to this side and read all the information available.Then its up to them to accept the information or not or to do more research.



I do sudgest this side because it is well documented.

MartinM


Joined: 03/10/2009
Posts: 166

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 12:37

What Armenian Genocide??????

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 12:41

msg 64



maz i never thought that all those you said was refering to me .



me a bible scholar ohhh no even the bible is presented as they like (historians etc)

ianwfs


Joined: 08/01/2008
Posts: 563

Message Posted:
05/08/2010 12:46

The Armenian "genocide" was not a single act, but the culmination of a series of actions (by both the Armenians and Ottomans) dating back to decades before the first world war.



Genocide is an emotive word, and, of course, open to different interpretation. It was, however described by one Mustapha Kemal as a "Shameful Act"



I'd quote my sources, but the books I need are in Cyprus, and I'm for the moment in Yorkshire.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 17:03

Has this particular crossing opened yet,

Paul.

john_good


Joined: 15/08/2010
Posts: 176

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 17:14

no and in cyprus today mid week edition it says it is delayed untill next year t/cs have run out of money for new road to it.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 17:23

John,

I thought it was a joint project Gc Tc,

Paul.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
18/08/2010 18:40

Paul It is a joint project each doing their own side the road was not good before but it was in the process of being ripped up to be re surfaced end of June early July on the North side .I was there then

perhaps its indicative how the talks are going >I believe the Presidents went to inspect both went down to inspect it in July and were happy with the works a bit like the talks then and look at them now