System after re-unification.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 16:31

when N.Cyprus comes within greek cypriot control,what will be the situation regarding property compensation?.Going by what I read into South Cyprus system regarding deeds ,which I presume will come into effect. it appears to be the deed holder who is legally liable to pay.SEE PARA 4.

It seems you can in the south, also have no deeds ,but legally the consequences appear to be different.

Will the new govt demand then that our deeds must be given to us right away?



I presume the following will apply in the north once re-unification takes place.







Title Deeds & Cyprus land registry system



1)Title Deeds as issued by the Land RegistryCyprus maintains an effective land registry system in which all immovable property (a term that relates to land and buildings, trees and plantations, rivers, wells, and all rights relating to land and buildings) is registered.



2)the legal ownership of immovable property is denoted by its Title Deeds, your Contract of Sale must provide for the transfer of ownership and registration of the property in your name and the contract deposited for 'Specific Performance' at your local branch of the Land Registry - the District Lands' Office.

Why bother with Title Deeds?







Advantages of not having Title Deeds



*



3) On the plus side, you do not pay Property Transfer Fees to complete the purchase and have ownership of the property transferred to your name.



Disadvantages of not having Title Deeds



*



4) You do not own your property and are therefore unable to enjoy the full benefits of property ownership, including the right to sell or transfer it to anyone you wish without reference to its registered owner.

*



5) Should you wish to sell, you need to cancel or transfer your contract of sale at the Land Registry enabling its registered owner to enter into a new sale agreement with your buyer. I know some buyers who have been charged more than € 34,000 by the registered owner, a disreputable property developer, for this 'privilege'. But a recent Court ruling may help to put an end to this despicable practice.

*



6) Under certain circumstances the legal owner of the property can still raise a mortgage on the land on which your property is built without your permission, even though you may have paid him for it in full.

*



7) Without Title Deeds you are unable to raise money against your property and unable to access any of the capital you have tied up in it through equity release loans and other schemes.

*



8) As the Cyprus financial institutions currently refuse to grant mortgages on resale properties without Title Deeds, anyone wishing to buy your home must be a cash buyer.









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PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 16:46

girne29,



Firstly, N Cyprus is unlikely to come under GC control as the terms of reunification allow for a bizonal, bicommunal federation. In other words the GCs will administer themselves in day to day issues and the TCs will similarly administer their own domestic affairs. There's no guarantee harmonisation of the land registry system will take place, but if you are occupying a GC property at the very least you should prepare yourself for paying some kind of compensation.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 17:39

Totally agree. Some kind of compensation will have to be paid.

MaggieAndBernie



Joined: 26/07/2008
Posts: 2012

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 18:47

Girne 29

when N.Cyprus comes within greek cypriot control,what will be the situation regarding property compensation?.



Shouldn't the 'when' in your posting be replaced with a great big 'IF' !!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 19:28

MSG 4 see MSG 2

MaggieAndBernie



Joined: 26/07/2008
Posts: 2012

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 19:30

Think I've just been 'piked' again (wink)

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 19:36

I may be out of the loop here, but, if there is any compensation agreement achieved, who exactly will be liable to pay such compensation in either North or South?



Those who, post 1974, took possesion or were given the land?

Any interim 'owners' of the land?

Any developer/builder who parcelled and sold on the land?

Current owners who bought in good faith?

GC or NC Governments?

Greek or Turkish Governments?

EU or some other body?

Will N or S claimants be required to show documented pre 74 ownership?





'Compensation' is a very sweeping statement, but what everyone needs to know is compensation by who?



As I have bought in NC in good faith, with approval of the TRNC Government, surely there would be a case for me demanding restitution from the TRNC if I am subsequently forced to pay any compensation to a GC, and vice versa for a GC 'owner' of 'Turkish' property in the South.



If I am forced to pay, could I counterclaim against those I bought off etc.





I can't see all these problems being sorted out over a few amicable meetings between Talat and Christophias anytime soon. Bigger players will have to make decisions.



rob

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 19:58

girne 29



what unification never mind re -unification "greek cypriot contol "

no sorry i am lost.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 20:18

Msg 6: "Think I've just been 'piked' again (wink)"



You loved it.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 20:40

ROBnJO Msg 7: "Current owners who bought in good faith?"



That would be one for the courts or property commission to decide, perhaps. Can you have "good faith" when you buy something knowing it isn't yours? Can you really see any country or international body bailing out expats who ignored the warnings? I think current occupiers will have to cough up or be evicted when it's time to face the music. Very few votes in expats. Cypriots must and will have priority.



"Will N or S claimants be required to show documented pre 74 ownership?"



The only legal and recognised property authority on the island is the Republic of Cyprus Land Registry. All legal cases so far have used the records held as of July 1974 as the legal claim of ownership. I'd hazard a wild guess and say your documentation may well be considered pretty worthless after reunification.



"...surely there would be a case for me demanding restitution from the TRNC..."



The TRNC won't exist after reunification and even if it did, do you really think they would even take so much as a phone call from you?



"I can't see all these problems being sorted out over a few amicable meetings between Talat and Christophias anytime soon."



It's pretty certain the two Cypriot leaders will have bigger issues on their minds than a few expats who bought refugee property. What rights and guarantees will they give you, do you think?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 21:15

Musin M

you ask



''what unification never mind re -unification "greek cypriot contol "



You will have to ask Mr Talat



Quote from Talat ''RE-UNIFICATION will be benificial economically,politically,and militarily''



Reunification means the union of the peoples, to form a single state as Cyprus once was. Where the bizonal part fits in I dont know maybe some form of devolution,however even tho we have that in the UK ,London controls the purse strings. There will only be one Cyprus ,which means under one legal system,as it has also been agreed between both leaders to have a single citizenship and sovereignty for all Cypriots.

As regards my original question, again from Talat : “Property issue will be solved in terms of either compensations, or exchange or restitution. There are three options. And an agreement will have provisions regarding this issue.”



So ,under the new legal framework, if you dont have title then you are not the owner ,who pays the compensation?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 21:18

the trnc won,t exist







cuckoo land





musin

cyprusishome


Joined: 31/03/2007
Posts: 2381

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 21:53

We bought under the assumption that an agreement may be reached where compo may need to be paid. There fore if it happens and the law of the land at that time says so we will have to pay.



Anybody who bought under an illusion of all things are bright and rosy then they deserve anything that comes there way.



As for what I think, the only solution is a seperate state scenario of TRNC and RoC. How that will work on the world stage, as long as GC's have veto at UN and EU, fat chance.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:16

girne29



talks begin september 3rd .



turks and greeks have never been unified even before 74 we all lived in separate villages ,whatever happens in the future the north will stay the north

and the south will stay the south as for properties and land issues it will come down too compensation both for turks and greeks the question is how much,

this is how i see the outcome,when and how i have no idea,however there will

be some changes in the next couple of years,this i am quitely confident about

musin

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:26

Hi All,

I suppose at this moment in time we can only assume what will happen.Who knows,the toys may be thrown out of the pram again tomorrow and talks called off.Nothing ceases to amaze me with the Cyprus problem.If i was a betting man (and i am)i would go the way of compensation.And as i am buying my property on exchange land,i would expect to pay some sort of compensation.In fact this was explained to me at the time of purchase,Enjoy your evening,

Paul.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:35

paul



can you really see another way out.







musin

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:41

Musin,

I suppose not but there will still be alot of cloak and dagger stuff to come dont you think,

Paul.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:51

paul



without a shadow of doubt ,but hey you what lets get it over and done with

then we all know where we stand,and we wont have any reason to slag each

other off.



musin

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 22:58

Iwill drink to that matey,

Paul.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
11/08/2008 23:46

pp



"That would be one for the courts or property commission to decide,"



Which Courts or property Commissions exactly?



"Can you have "good faith" when you buy something knowing it isn't yours?"



I was assured my title would be good by the Agents, Vendors, Advocates, and my title has been accepted by the TRNC and their legal system. I was never 'warned' by anyone that I was buying 'stolen property' There would be an element of address agains anyone involved. I had considered buying in Souther Cyprus a number of years ago. Similarly, I was never warned at the time that I may have been considering buying 'stolen' property.

I see no difference between property transactions in either NC or SC , especially since 1974.



"current occupiers will have to cough up "



I believe that a majority of foreign owners in SC would be in a similar position.



"The only legal and recognised property authority on the island is the Republic of Cyprus Land Registry. All legal cases so far have used the records held as of July 1974 as the legal claim of ownership. I'd hazard a wild guess and say your documentation may well be considered pretty worthless after reunification."



Considered 'pretty worthless by whom exactly? Who do you expect to make the final decisions or arbitration within the framework of any reunification plan, the execution of which none of us can foretell.

Also remember that the current talks are aimed at a resolution of the current situation. There are no guarantees that the ROCLR will be accepted as a final authorty regarding property ownership, in which case your comments would fall apart.



"The TRNC won't exist after reunification,.."



Sure of that are you? You sound very definite. Possibly neither would the ROC in it's current form after any reunification.



"It's pretty certain the two Cypriot leaders will have bigger issues on their minds than a few expats who bought refugee property."



Which could also be disastrous for GC due to development and property purchase on a massive scale since 1974.



Development in Southern Cyprus has been mostly funded by foreign buyers and their investment. They also loved the inflow of investment into the business sphere. In any talks, GC will not be immune from the problems you foretell for NC.





"A few expats" is dramatically wide of the mark. It is expat or foreign investment that has helped Southern Cyprus developed since 1974. The proportional level of 'ex-pats' per head of population is far higher in the South than the North.





All your arguments may well backfire onto Southern Cyprus to a greater degree than you seem to wish to happen to North Cyprus.





rob

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 00:06

robnjo



there will always be a trnc make no mistake of that,property look up the orams

case ,even if they lost their case which they did not the turkish authorities

would of bought their property off of them so they lost no money.

buying in the south ,how do you know your not buying property built on turkish land .



musin

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 00:15

If you have bought on exchange land, then surely you expected the land to have been exchanged, or compensation paid.



If therefore an AGREEMENT is reached between both parties, and any compensation that is subsequently agreed, would be paid by the Government.



The TRNC have imposed taxes and duties on that land/property thereby granting Government authority to the purchase/sale, and as such that property is legitemised.



It will no doubt be argued that the TRNC is an illegal state, but surely The TRNC has been granted recognition, by virtue of the fact that it has entered these talks, under the guidance and support of the UN.



Logic to me, but my view. That is all.



wynyardman

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 01:02

Wyn, Like the Logic,

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 11:59

wynyardman.

Spot on.



I heard and believed compensation would have to be paid,but certainly never told by advocates or estate agents.Rather, was told that as was exchange land then was basically swapped.

Could I claim compensation in the south from the person who is sitting on the turkish land that my land was exchanged for. Or could I swap my land for the land in the south.I presume the rights for compensation to the TC for his land in south would transfer to me.



TRNC stated exchange land was legal, RoC stated it wasnt,but I purchased in TRNC so unless TRNC is completely removed as an entity then they have a resposnibilty to the people who live and purchased under that system.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 12:21

MUSIN: "turks and greeks have never been unified even before 74 we all lived in separate villages"



I appreciate you have lived in England most of your life, but even you should know that statement is a blatant untruth. Mixed villages have existed all over Cyprus. Who are you trying to fool?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 12:38

Has any esdeger/tmd property owners ever seen a TRNC legal document telling them that they personally have to pay compensation in the event of a compensation claim against their property? If so, what were the amounts specified?



Trying to establish if this is fact or fiction?

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 13:46

Have never seen anything to do with compensation from TRNC govt except to say it wont happen.



BUT as the north voted for Annan plan you have to presume they agreed with article 10





This what was originally intended in Annan plan



http://www.hri.org/docs/annan/Main_Articles/MainArticles.pdf



Go to Article 10. for property. part of which reads-

'Dispossessed owners who opt for compensation, as well as institutions, shall receive full and effective compensation for their property on the basis of value at the time of dispossession adjusted to reflect appreciation of property values in comparable locations. Compensation shall be paid in the form of guaranteed bonds and appreciation certificates;



Presume it would be Govt that would use bonds.



Again , the TC who sold me his exchange land, gets compensation for the land he lost in the south.but should it not be me who gets the compensation as I have bought his land with all that goes with it, ie compensation for land in south and penalty of paying the Greek on whose land I live on.

Otherwise the TC is getting paid twice over.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/08/2008 14:35

thanks girne 29, I haven't seen this specific document before