HBPG and Construction Union's plan to solve property crisis in TRNC

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 11:41

North Cyprus Free Press are conducting a poll to find out what readers feel about the HBPG and Construction Union's plan to solve property crisis in TRNC. Vote at http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/09/15/hbpg-and-construction-unions-plan-to-solve-property-crisis-in-trnc/

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 12:48

18 pollsters so far, and none have voted for the HBPG/Union plan as it stands.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 13:30

It would also be interesting to see what proposal can be put forward for those who have a fully finished property, full possession and all services but no kocan.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 13:51

Groucho I think the HBPG/Cons plan applies to that as well. You form a committee, perhaps of just yourself, you then pay the builder more money and then wait for your kocan

26 votes so far and none back the HBPG/Cons plan.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 14:25

Hi Groucho,



We are in the same position as yourself and would love to know if there is anything we can do, or if HBPG will tackle this problem.





The butlers wife

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 14:40

Surely the answer is to make contracts enforceable by incorporating specific performance.



Remove the instruction that no PTP for Brits on Pre 74 Turkish Title Land..



Make registration outrank ANY incumberances,(as we were promised) inc mortgages and memoranda.



Imprisonment for builders who demand more money than people contracted for .Make Blackmail a crime!



wynyardman

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 15:01

or how about NO KOCAN, NO MONEY!? 38 votes so far and no one has voted for the HBPG/Cons plan so why on earth are HBPG supporting a plan that gives the construction industry more money but the buyers NOTHING in law and less left of their savings? This makes the Property Complaints Office look like a stroke of genius.

pollymarples


Joined: 08/08/2010
Posts: 1778

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 15:03

Very sensible wynyardman - you get my vote.



Still when did sensible mean diddly squat here.



To say mortgages are okay, what planet are they on? Builders are serial none payers and we all know

with the sort of interest rate imposed how quickly a mortgage grows here. Still got to say, paying extra for the

work to be finished does wonders for the banks security. They're having a laugh.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 20:29

54 votes at http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/09/15/hbpg-and-construction-unions-plan-to-solve-property-crisis-in-trnc/ and still not a single vote for the HBPG/Cons plan. Come and have your say.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 20:37

can someone explain why on earth we should form a commitee and pay whatever or else the builder wont hand the deeds over . complete blackmail and cant see why this is being suggested by them.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 20:59

If builders see these proposals surely it will act as an incentive to throw their hands in the air, and say I have no money. You form a committee and finish it.



Builders must be shown that contracts are legally binding documents and will be enforced with the full force of the law.



In my case my Contract was legally binding as long as I owed money on it, but once the terms had been met, it wasnt worth the paper that it was written on.If this attitude is allowed to prevail no wonder builders try it on.



My builder demanded an extra £10K and I did not have the budget or inclination to pay. He witheld my contract until there were memoranda on my villa. and the additional costs were outwith my means. It will additionally cost another £5K to finish off the villa.



I have been advised to go to Court and ask the Court to to designate me as the beneficial owner of the villa.

If granted ,I am advised memoranda would be ineffective, and I would be protected from the builders bank

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 21:06

bankrupcy. (he has now filed for Bankrupcy.)



I will of course keep members abreast of any Court Proceedings.



One final point is that if Comittees are formed as suggested they should be legally constituted and accountable

otherwise they are open to abuse.



There is only one way, and that is to make the builders legally accountable as outlined in Msg 6 above.



Anything less and the government should forced to pay Compensation.



Just my personal opinions,



wynyardman

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 21:23

wynyardman



totally agree its just a sign that they can do whatever they want they can anyway as we know but its just giving in letting them demand what they want. In my case place finished and all done and lived in for 3 years he just wont sign kocan over to some of us as hes says he want more money and cant give a reason just because he can ! so he thinks



why on earth do we sign a contract then.



Im sorry I really dont think in some case this should even be considered acceptable.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 21:29

or as Pauline Read commented on NCFP, why don't the builders put a mortgage on their own homes and finish the project according to the contract?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 21:35

honestie,



It makes my blood boil, when they throw the Contract, that they encouraged you to sign, back across the desk at you, and tell you NOW that it is not worth the paper it is written on!



If the Government (who get thousands in taxes) cannot put in a robust legislation supported by an effective legal system, to support the Property sector, they should be forced by TURKEY (the motherland) to pay compensation. The "T" in TRNC is Turkey, and it is them that is looking for International recognition for their

fledgeling state, until it is taken fully under the wing.



Anything less is unacceptable.



wynyardman

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
15/09/2010 21:39

honestie,



It should be considered totally unacceptable, any contract should be legally binding, if it's not why sign it in the first place? There is no point to contracts in the TRNC they are not legally binding, and the so called Lawyer has no duty of care to their client!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 06:46

64 votes in so far and apart for 1 person supporting the HBPG/Con and 3 people supporting it as long as the extra costs are placed in a new contract, the remaining 60 voters overwhelmingly reject the plan announced at the HBPG meeting yesterday.

People are amazed that there was no mention yesterday of purchasers being given title deeds at the start of the process or that the only reason that building on these sites had stopped was because the builders are refusing to hand over title deeds and allow more competent companies to finish the job. Perhaps even more amazing is that HBPG has been sucked into another ill conceived scheme leading already suffering home buyers up the garden path as was the case in 2006 with the Property Complaints Office. According to Cyprus Today (11/9/2010) Marian Stokes says she will not support those who do not support this plan but I believe it will be the other way round unless she negotiates for NO KOCAN, NO MONEY!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 07:27

When a builder applies for planning permission, a bond should be lodged with the Gov't. large enough to pay for the removal of the shell once the scheme (scam) goes tits-up...



Then the countryside wouldn't be littered with half-built properties.



At the outset the land deeds should be lodged with the land office along with a copy of the contracts as each one is signed for registration. This way the ownership of the land can not be held hostage over the buyer's head in lieu of a kocan.



Any land on which a failed scheme is situated should become legal property of either the Gov't or the buyer (if they have paid in full as per contract) and the builder's/kocan holder's rights become null and void once a period of 6 months past the contract end date has passed and no further construction work ensues. And I don't mean fitting the odd bit of wiring - I do mean construction as verifiable by building inspectors.





Then the buyers wouldn't become a hostage to fortune.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 07:37

can someone put me down in the "more chance of flying to the moon with me old uncle Percy's skateboard" camp, please......

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 07:39

Selling a property to more than one buyer should be a criminal offence...



Mortgaging a property you have already received payment for should be a criminal offence. You are conning the bank if you pretend you retain a value interest in a property when you've sold it already.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 07:59

negnick, that's the "I disagree, I wouldn't spend another penny on property in the TRNC" option at http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/09/15/hbpg-and-construction-unions-plan-to-solve-property-crisis-in-trnc/

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 08:45

Banks lending builders money at exorbitant rates of interest i.e. more than double base rate should be made illegal... and any property they use as collateral for such a loan should be forfeit.

Molly


Joined: 30/08/2008
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 14:45

Malsancak - the EXISTING problems cannot be solved by waving a magic wand. We all know what should be done!!!!!!!!



1. The HBPG suggestion is aimed at existing owners.



2. The lawyers collectively are doing nothing to get the exisiting property laws amended.



3. The government is doing nothing to help resolve these problems.



I sincerely hope that the construction/contractors association will give constructive help to those who seek their assistance.



At her own expense Marian incurs significant costs to travel to meetings, accompanying purchasers, using her mobile extensively for no personal gain.



It is all too easy to deride someone elses efforts to find solutions - they are certainly not easy to come by in the TRNC.



If purchasers choose to do nothing, it's their choice. The fact is others have got off their backsides and have managed to overcome the numerous obstacles - no one is saying that it's easy.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 14:54

Molly, like Marian, I give up my own time and money to run a service for the community and so your comment about effort and money, in my view, does not determine whether what we do is right. To allow builders to not honour their contracts and to give purchasers the deeds they are entitled to is, in my opinion, criminal. The fact that they are refusing to do so should warn purchasers that this plan, devised by their professional organisation, is NOT in the interests of the purchasers who have so far had nothing for their money, it's in the interests of the builders.

Why is Marian not insisting that the first step to helping the PURCHASERS is to give them their title deeds?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 15:22

80 votes so far and only 1 supports the HBPG/Con plan, 76 of those who voted would not spend another penny without title deeds first

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 15:24

Msg 24 Malsancak,



Because the builders would not go along with it.



Agreeing to pay more than you have contracted for JUST ENCOURAGES THE PRACTICE.



In cases where builders blackmail more money than the contract states, it is criminal and jail would be a good starting place.



You could discuss how they finish the buildings, WHEN THEY COME OUT.



Imho of course,



wynyardman

crofter


Joined: 16/12/2008
Posts: 1035

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 16:01

We will stand to be corrected BUT is it not a fact that Title Deeds cannot and will not be issued until the property is paid for 100%, all the taxes have been paid by all parties, all properties on the site have been parcelised and only then is the developer/builders name taken off the Kocan and the owners name is the only one remaining.



Even though a person has paid all their money for their property it does STILL belong to the developer/builder until his name is taken off the Kocan.



If builders/developers have run out of money and they are willing to work with and co-operate with the buyers this does seem to be the most logical way forward. The 'owners' control the pot of money and organise for contractors to do the work and when the work is completed they pay for it from the pot.



The developers/builders are dragging their feet because they are unable to complete the properties because they do not have any money.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 16:40

crofter, if what I'm about to say seems to insult your intelligence then I apologise. What I am suggesting is that whatever the state of the property, finished or otherwise, there is nothing to stop the builder signing over that property to someone who has paid the value of the property as it stands. For example, let's say that if a finished property is contracted for £100,000 with services and as it stands you have a carcass on a plot with no services and you've paid in excess of, say, £60,000 then financially the purchaser would be justified in claiming the title for that property if the builder has money for the next stage and says they cannot afford to complete it. Trouble is, the builder isn't going to give you the deeds until they've sucked every penny out of you. Wake up! Unless you get your kocan, you COULD BE ripped off until you're penniless. You can risk it if you like, but not not me, I stopped being that naive a long time ago.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 16:49

crofter wrote, "The developers/builders are dragging their feet because they are unable to complete the properties because they do not have any money. "

I know, they've spent your stage payment and done nothing for it. You then give them more but the HBPG/Con is so brilliant it all goes on building your property and none of it finances the lifestyle which caused them to recklessly spend your money in the first place and so what do they do? They take a mortgage out on your property without telling you! Dumb!

crofter


Joined: 16/12/2008
Posts: 1035

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 16:50

WE do not have any worries as we have our full Kocan.



It is others who are not so lucky we are thinking of.



The suggestion we made above worked for another member of our family. None of the 'owners' of the villas had electricity. The builder said he did not have the funds to go through the process of getting it to site.



The owners clubbed together using the money they still owed to the builder. They employed a contractor [Sinsan] who are the Kibtek contractor, had plans drawn up for the site electricity, plans passed, Kibtek paid from the pot of money that the owners had owed to the builder and Kibtek installed the meter and they got their electricity. The builder was ok about this arrangement and they owners were more than happy.



This is just one example of everyone pulling together and getting things done.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 17:15

Crofter, this is difficult to get people to understand but of course the property owner is happy for you to do anything to improve THEIR property and is happy to spend YOUR money on THEIR property. There's a little phrase called "a show of faith," I can see that HBPG/Con are happy to suggest that purchasers show faith by paying a stage payment that is not due, in other words asking them to risk money, but nowhere is there a show of faith from the Construction Union members. In fact the ultimate insult from that union was that in no way did they seriously apologise for their members breaking contracts, they just came straight to the point and asked for more money. No apology, no attempt to get the more wealthy builders to form a committee to help out the customers, no sign that they give a damn about auctioned properties and pensioners about to be evicted. I couldn't work with them but you obviously could crofter.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 17:46

Molly, Msg 23 your item 3



The government will never pass laws that allows proceedings to be taken out against their own people and will never give favour towards foreigners. This will only change, I hope, if Turkey takes total control of the country and has the willpower to stop the racism that is being enacted by the present government.







Long Live the TRNC (But not in its present state)

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 18:58

crofter



it doesnt help me or others in my position when you have paid everything and more and have lived in it of 3 years but the builder just refuses to transfer. why because he can and he knows were taking him to court but doesnt care now if I pay an extra amount he may transfer.



blackmail yes and costing money for court yes. He should be charged with fraud and no doubt if it was the other way round i would be.



Yhis is one very importnat lae that needs to be addressed to as well as unfinished places but doesnt seem to have been.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 19:10

crofter Msg 30.



Interesting. Did this particular builder make sure that ALL his customers that had paid 100% of their cotractrual obligations, received their kochan?



Can it be right to allow them to walk away from their contractrual obligations?



Who is responsible for completing all buildings on the site?



Who accepts LEGAL responsibility for the 5 year Warranty on the site?



Who has LEGAL respondsibility for ensuring that All of The Builders contractrual obligations are met.?



Whoever takes on this situation,. without legal responsibility,and without liability insurance. is brave indeed



I do not feel HPBG and The Builders Union will accept legal responsibility. I think that they will leave ALL



responsibility to an "ad hock" so called committee, who will be legal responsible, at the end of the day!



Foolhardy imho, but thats all.



wynyardman



wynyardman

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 19:32

If the building union are genuine, why don't they expel all the dodgy builders and take away their licence? If this happened, people might have more faith in venturing more money.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 19:33

Trood,



You cant argue with that!



wyn

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 19:41

The root of the problem is lack of trust:-



A lot of the Brit' customers came here with their expectations too high and made extreme demands of the builders, thinking that the law protected them, they ended up alienating them



-and-



seems to me that everyone involved in the building industry has abused the trust of their customers at some point or another



Like the article said - the Government don't want to get involved - maybe this is last chance saloon!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 19:51

Washerman,



Tosh! They get a signed contract, buy the Merc or other luxury vehicle, down the Casino, usually with someone elses woman, and they have spent YOUR money when it is time to pay their bills.



The law should provide for imprisonment for people who act with such financial imprudence.



Making excuses, taking over their responsibilities, and paying their bills just encourages the problem!



Shameful, and if its not illegal under the law.,IT SHOULD BE!



wynyardman

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 19:54

Wynyardman - You have just prooved my point. High expectations. This is not the UK or, Europe even

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:00

Why is the HBPG taking a reactive rather than proactive approach?



All they appear to be doing is getting properties completed, at additional costs to the buyer and then leaving the buyer still at risk of memorandums or non-transfer of title deeds. There must be an increased risk of memorandums being placed on these properties if the builder is unable to complete due to financial reasons? The end result could be a completed property that has cost you much more than the contract price but that the builder still owns!



In my opinion this does nothing to protect TRNC property buyers. However, what it does appear to do, is encourage the unscrupulous builder to keep asking for more money or threatening to stop building.



A backward step. If the HBPG truly want to support buyers and prevent scams then I suggest they stop looking at short-term solutions and concentrate on law changes that will restore confidence in the construction industry and protect buyers.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:07

The Govt. has too much on its plate at the moment with other things. What makes everyone think that they want or, need to sort out the building sector?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:09

Bradus,



"Finished at extra cost " (if you have spare funds, in our case no one asked!!!)



Thank God. At last the voice of common sense!







Washerman,



All I wanted was a villa" AS QUOTED" 18 month build (or penalties) 4 years later 100% paid. no



electric, no mains water, no swimming pool mechanicals. NO KOCHAN.(penalties forgiven)



High expectations my A---se!



Get a life! it is theft in any Civilised Society.



wynyardman

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:17

Wynyardman, if I were you, I would be saying the same thing.



Unfortunately, it isn't theft, it's a binding contract under the laws of the TRNC.



In your case, it went wrong and in mine too, but not to the same extent as yours did.



Not enough people were cautious enough. We expected UK standards and laws.



Why would the Govt. be interested in our plight?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:25

Washerman.



My builder had the opportunity to issue my kochan before he filed for bankrupcy. He did not do so. He demanded monies extra to the contract. That makes it theft!



Time will let us see what remedies TRNC allows.



wynyardman

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:28

Washerman stated:



"The Govt. has too much on its plate at the moment with other things. What makes everyone think that they want or, need to sort out the building sector?



Perhaps because the TRNC's building industry is on its knees! There is little investment and this is affecting TC jobs.

Perhaps to restore confidence in the property market?

Perhaps because they are ashamed that laws do not protect buyers and their reputation is being seriously damaged, not to mention their obvious inability to manage the TRNC effectively.

Perhaps because they can see the emotional stress this is causing to honest buyers?

Perhaps to encourage investment and improve the quality of life for the TC's that would benefit from this?



I could highlight even more reasons but it is probably more effective to discover why they refuse to introduce change and what the long-term effects will be on the TRNC if they do not?

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:32

Wynyardman..........I have written on every forum going right back to Steve's (7 years ago) and people used to moan about the Greek Cypriots and the possibility that they may take the land back (one day)



I remember posting funny ditty's about the local builders and their new cars and warning people that it wasn't the Greek Cypriots that they needed to worry about.



I used to get coated then, too.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:36

Bradus, the Govt. have bigger fish to fry. The Brit' buyers boom is over. IMHO Marian Stoke's plan is good - last chance saloon!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:38

Re. thread title:



'Throwing good money after bad' immediately springs to mind!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:38

Washerman,



"Wynyardman - You have just proved my point. High expectations. This is not the UK or, Europe even"



I hardly think that asking for you property to be completed and the title deeds handed over on exchange of all monies agreed is asking for high expectations....................except if you are buying in the TRNC.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:41

Bradus,



I get the feeling that this is their last chance to let their banks and fellow TCs take the last dregs from the Brits coffers, prior to Turkey taking over, and imposing Internationally acceptable ways of behavoir.



Registration of properties without any protection (on payment of Stamp Duty)

Memorandums

Garnashee Orders

No PTP for Pre 74 Turkish title Land.

Mortgages on properties that had already been paid for.



How else can you read the signs?



wynyardman

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:41

Well the Brit's can stamp their feet and bang their drums as much as they like. Who's listening?

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:44

Everyone entered into a business deal - I will supply, I will buy!



Everyone expected UK standards and laws



Some fell on stony ground!

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:51

Wyn. Im always concerned when i read these post and the many problems and issues that you and others have. I will be probably be shot down in flames by certain people but ive always thought going forward that the TRNC should become part of Turkey completly even if it means that Turkey does not become part of the EU etc, and would that not deal with these problems more productivly.



Measey.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:54

WASHERMAN,



How can a plan that asks for more money to be paid without assurances that the builder will hand over the deeds be a good idea?



Who are we looking after here? Builders interests or the buyers? Seems to me the builder gets the best deal but the buyer just keeps their fingers crossed and hopes the developer will deliver.



For too long the TRNC property market has relied on Trust and the Brits have been VERY TRUSTING but now people want firm assurances that they are not throwing good money after bad. For this reason the HBPG's plan is unacceptable. You would be mad to get involved in "round 2" with no guarantees.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 20:57

Very few expected UK or European standards. What they did expect was for contracts to be legally binding and to get what they had agreed within those contracts.



What you are actually saying Washerman is that the TRNC is corrupt, you have no legal redress and you may or may not get your property?



I totally agree.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:00

measey,



Any buggers guess mate! but fight on we will!



wyn

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:11

Wyn,

I agree with your reasoning in message 50.



The worrying thing is how many might fall for this "no protection plan"

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:14

Yes wynyardman, measey, bradus, washerman, tenakoutou, honestie, troodo,Quarmby, malsancak,groucho, pollymarples



4th October London,



4th October Lefkosia,



POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:15

Wyn. I admire you and others for your commitment to the course, just feel that without Turkey the TRNC is always going to lack judgement.



Measey.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:30

measey,



Msg59,



I personally dont think it will be long now, but the question is, will the TRNC put their house in order first?



imho of course,



wynyardman

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:45

I was actually at Tuesday's meeting and from what I understood of what I heard, the Kocan was to be placed in trust until all the building work and the infrastructure had been completed. No money was to be paid directly to the builder but could be paid to whoever finished the build from a bank account controlled by the buyers.



Whilst we all know what is wrong with the system and we all know how it should be changed, how do we actually force any change when we have no democratic rights? The past Government were not interested, this Government is not interested and all we are left with is litigation which, costs us more money and there is no guarantee that we will receive any compensation even if we win our case.



It would be nice to think that everyone who had a problem with purchasing property could join together and find some sort of solution but in the absence of anything else this might just be a step in the right direction.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 21:59

Harvey, you have democratic rights in the UK, Not one TRNC Government that I remember have awarded any democratic rights to an "immigrant"



It IS nice to think that everyone with a problem with purchasing property can join together if only for one day on the 4th October no-one can guarantee a solution, but either side of the mediterranean together maybe we can make a difference! as for compensation, anyone within the TRNC or it's Government doesn't know the meaning of the word! even if you win your case!

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 22:02

As I said before it may be a way forward in some circumstances but what is suggested for the ones who have theirs finished and paid all yet the builder just refuses to transfer kocan because they can .

I am still not sure as I was unable to attend the meeting what has been suggested to address this and how can it be addressed unless we pay more money which is in any way you look at it blackmail and criminal .



Just wish one builder could be taken to court for a criminal offence and jailed and had to transfer kocans.



no harm in dreaming rathere than be in a nightmare!

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 22:13

Harvey,



You have put a different slant on this.



I would like to know more about the deeds being put in Trust. How safe is this and who holds them?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 22:42

Bradus,



What would happen on a scheme where someone on the site, could genuinely not pay what they owed?



What would happen to a scheme where a builder sought more money, than was actualy contractrually owed?



Surely the rules would have to be equal for all. How about snagging and builders 5 year warranties?



wyn

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 22:44

If you look on the HBPG web site then it is all explained on there. Unfortunately, most people are only too keen to critisise without fully understanding the proposals when, we should all be trying to work together.



Soner did not say he could solve all buyers problems but he did say his union could discipline those members found to be at fault. He is the only person prepared to help in any way and as such I think we ought to first give him the benefit of the doubt and then see what happens.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 22:57

Harvey,



As an Aga Victim I have given all of them the benefit of the doubt for the last 7 years, so now I am very keen to criticize, the HBPG have come out with various proposals and we have all followed their lead, unfortunately it has not got the majority of us anywhere!



As for discipline!!! whoever Soner is? how sad he is the only person prepared to help? so far down the line!



And unfortunately I am not prepared to give anyone the benefit of the doubt anymore!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 23:01

Harvey,



I am speaking from personal experience, and with the best will in the world, it did not work



The builder demanded £10K more than was contracted. He has filed for Bankrupcy so I hardly think he will be bothered about The Constructors Union opinions.



Honestie also speaks from bitter experience.



It is blackmail and they should be jailed.



There is a possible solution if the Courts will grant Beneficial Ownership, status but as I understand this is still to be tested in Court., but only if you have met 100% of your contractrual obligations. My advocate is making application.



wynyard

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 23:13

TRNCvictim



I am sorry my post should have been addressed to Bradus in answer to her question.



I agree that it is a sad reflection of this country that no one else is prepared to help any of us. I have already said that 'Soner did not say he could solve all buyers problems' but in my opinion there might be some sites where these plans could work.

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 23:24

Wynyard



I agree that we are all being blackmailed for more money but the only other option is litigation which, again costs us more money (probably more than the £10k extra you are being asked to pay) and there is no guarantee we will win anything in court because as you say, he is already filing for bankruptcy. Unfortunately, there does not seem to be any way forward for any of us but when a guy stands up at a public meeting and says he wants to help, I do not think we should all shout him down before we have heard what he has to say.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 23:42

The making of any new laws will be no more enforced than the ones that already exist as there is no will for this from government, lawyers, courts, or builder's unions. The only will which exists , in the absence of new buyers in numbers, is to continue to seize by any means and sell the existing housing stock regardless that it may have been paid for in full and occupied by families. Memories must be short as some few years ago when the builders marched on the government buildings to protest that they could not afford the rises in taxes to be paid by builders they were appeased by a government who told them to make the customers pay regardless of what was in contracts. This was the Green light for unions to advise their members to withold Kocans without fear of action against them by Government, police, lawyer, or courts the latter remaing willing to take more money from customers if they cannot see it still will not bring a just remedy. Total SCAM !

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 23:45

You have a valid point Harvey and everyone should look at all available avenues and it would be good to see the builders and developers working in partnership. However the law needs changing to prevent these situations from happening in the first place. Prevention is better than cure, as they say. If it was a legal requirement to hand over title deeds then people would feel more in control, even when problems have occurred.



It would be good to hear of the successes i.e finished properties in which the title deeds were handed over and no additional costs incurred or failures where buyers paid even more and still did not receive their deeds.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
16/09/2010 23:46

Harvey,



I was advised that an application for Beneficial Ownership should succeed.



The fee quoted was £2500.



As I understand it, it is based on trust law, and should avoid memorandums (past and present) and also

avoid Bankrupcy proccedings, so that my paid for villa does not become an asset of the Company, and available to the builders creditors.



We should soon find out. This indeed would be THE way forward.



It still would not solve the injustice of refused PTP for Brits on Pre 74 Turkish Title Land but neither would The HPBG proposed initiative.



No one is being negative over any initiatives that may work, but they do need to be fair and equitable.



wynyardman

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 08:28

Harvey, I agree with you. To me, the rest of the suggestions are pie in the sky, but I can understand that everyone needs something to pin their hopes on.



Getting the Govt. to listen is a total non-starter so, any suggestion that involves that, is a waste of time.



Your cries are like this post, falling on deaf ears

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 08:51

I'd like to comment of a few points which seem to be taken as fact here, e.g. that the HBPG/Cons plan involves putting deeds in trust and that this information is on the HBPG website. Nowhere has this currently been written down and in fact in the Greatstones example, which apparently shows how this works, as I understand it the two people who couldn't pay extra were not given deeds and lost their properties when the company finally went bust. This still seems to be a variant of the builder's forget the contract, we've got you by the short and curlies, pay more or like the two people in the Greatstones example,lose everything.

OK, it's a wonderful idea putting your property in trust, Talat Kursat and other lawyers have been doing it for years, but for someone with their PTP, WHY NOT PUT THE DEEDS IN THEIR NAME? This looks like an attempt to subvert the NO KOCAN, NO MONEY! demand. I'm sure that a lot of people who are blackmailed will pay the ransom and HBPG/Cons will be the go betwee

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 09:22

I'm not sure if John and Julie Cooper are one of the two people at Greatstones who did not get their deeds but the story was in Cyprus Today and in NCFP

"...we paid 100% of our contractrual obligations in May 09 (to help the builders cash flow problems). We asked for our kochan and he demanded £7000 more without any justification. We eventually settled in March 09 £3000 cash now, plus up to £4000 on a pound for pound settlement with all site residents to complete the site at our expense. A TOTAL OF £7000 PLUS WE agreed to pay the cost of our own pool a further £2000 plus. We gave our advocate £7000 in cash ist week March 10, and we were promised that there could be NO MORE problems and our kochan would be issued without delay. On the basis of this assurrance we transfered funds to cover the KDV and transfer tax. Our advocate applied to the Land Registry to effect a transfer of the kochan. He was told that this was not possible as a Memorandum had been attached to our deeds for £80,000

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 09:24

John Cooper villa purchaser at Greatstones, the HBPG/Cons success story, can be found at:

http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/04/25/mr-president-what-are-you-going-to-do-about-this/

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 09:30

oops sorry Wynyardman, I forgot that was you!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 09:49

malsancak,



We are indeed one of the two people on Greatstone Constructions site that do not have their kochans.



Legal action is currently being persued to gain Beneficial Owner status through the courts, which if gained

could show the way forward to resolve 90% property issues in The TRNC.( where 100% of the contractrual payments have been made, and the builder refuses to hand over the kochan)



We eagerly await the decision of The Courts.



wynyardman

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 09:59

So, John, how sure is Munir Akil that Beneficial Ownership status will be successful and what is the time frame? HBPG?Cons seems to imply that it won't. This might make another interesting article for NCFP?

I'm not sure if this is true, but did the HBPG/Cons rescue plan entail paying another £10,000 on top of the £10,000 extra already paid. If not, what was the deal? Whatever it was, it must have been more than the £2500 charged for Beneficial Ownership status. Intriguing.

Mal

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 11:24

93 people have voted for the HBPG/Cons plan and only one agrees with it. See http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/09/15/hbpg-and-construction-unions-plan-to-solve-property-crisis-in-trnc/

There is now an article explaining Beneficial Ownership status at http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/09/17/beneficial-ownership-and-constructive-trusts-could-stop-trnc-property-auctions/

This is an important precedence which if accepted by the TRNC legal system, as it has been in the UK, says that once you've paid for your property, even in part, then any mortgage following that payment cannot treat the property as being fully owned by the title deed holder. This would mean there would be no need to pay extra once you've paid in full according to the contract and that you should have full benefit of the property and the deeds should be transferred to you. The bank would then have given a mortgage without realising that the builder's assets did not include legal ownership of the property.

loulou



Joined: 14/05/2008
Posts: 785

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 15:36

hbpg is a of crap wrot e to them 3years ago approx re electric with our builder still wating for a reply

toothless orgi

mamachina


Joined: 22/11/2008
Posts: 730

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 16:04

Mal - Beneficial ownership - as Wyn seems to think this is the answer and you say "if the courts ...." Who is more likely to be right? You questioning whether it can ever be done, or Wyn who thinks he's on to a done deal?

Our site had not paid full contract price, as we kept some back for the kocan - that money is now going to pay off the memo on the villas - the land owner is now trying a little blackmail - not the builder!! (though a relative) We now find that the water pipes laid underground and to the villas, are not the right size - according to the Belediye - though presumably ok at all his other sites!! Why do not the local councils keep an eye on building, see it stage by stage, and then when they are ready to be taken over at least they would know everything had been done correctly. They + bulders Fed should wrap it up, sort it & then perhaps we'd get somewhere. One day...one day we may get our kocan!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 16:20

Beneficial Ownership status is a fact - in the UK. Whether Wynyardman's legal representative can persuade the TRNC legal system that it should apply here is another thing but if they reject the principle then they stay in the Middle Ages as far as law is concerned.

Don't get me started on the lack of building inspectors here! I think I know the landowner, and his tractor, in your case but again get your legal representative to look into beneficial ownership status and see what they say,failig that perhaps Wyn's lawyer will take on a class action to cut individual costs?

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 16:29

I might be wrong, but i doubt that any big legal decisions will be taken between now and the end of the year.



As far as Kocans, disagreements, contracts, mortgages, litigation are concerned, things are set to get a lot more complicated IMHO.



I still think that the HBPG suggestion has got to be seriously considered.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 16:55

Washerman, I've seriously considered them.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 19:34

malsancak,



I am a businessman. I abide by contracts that I sign, and I provide (budget) to meet any obligations that I have entered. I will not give in to blackmail, it is Criminal behavoir.



I follow due process. If my Advocate advises that I apply for the status of Beneficial Ownership. then that is what I shall do. Why pay a dog, and bark yourself?,



Whilst having every respect for Marion of the HPBG I do not think that giving in to blackmail, is the way forward.



Imho but of course.



Time will tell, and I do of course realise that I am relying on the judiciary of The TRNC. But of course that was where the contract was signed,



I shall of course publish the outcome of the `Court case on Cyprus 44. I hope that these actions act as

guidance and inspiration for those so blighted.



wynyardman

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 19:38

Malsancak,



Msg 80.



Please do not jump to conclusions!



wyn

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
17/09/2010 20:51

Wyn, which part of msg 80 was a conclusion?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 10:30

The poll on NCFP has so far attracted 103 votes. 2% of those who voted agreed with the HBPG/Cons Plan, 3% agreed but only if the extra they were expected to pay was written down in a new contract. The rest disagreed with the plan and either expected title deeds to be issued in their name before paying any more or else refused to pay extra. This appears to show that appeasement does not appeal to NCFP readers in much the same way as the 13 Russians at Topaz Bay Villas refused to give in to blackmail and called the situation a scam. Why HBPG's co-founder Marian Stokes, cannot see this I don't know. If the builder/landowners cannot do the job, give us what we've paid for and go away (or words to that effect) seems to be the dominating attitude!

BrightonJim


Joined: 27/07/2010
Posts: 145

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 11:05

Marian Stokes's plan is trying to deal with the reality of the situation. It is not a question of appeasement but of trying to salvage something out of the wreckage. It is rather sad that only 5% of those who registered their preference accepted reality.

magicart


Joined: 05/10/2008
Posts: 985

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 11:47

Marian's plan will only work for those who owe money to the builder or to those who can afford to finish off their property.

Many purchasers are not in a financial position to do this, so what do they do?

These rogue builders/developers need to be accountable for their actions.Sadly under the current legal system this appears not be the case.I'm sure a lot of builders will welcome her views with open arms as this will give them yet another opportunity to renege on the agreement ,knowing that if necessary some purchasers will fund the completion of their property themselves-Frankly I think its a very dangerous suggestion and the only way forward is for the courts to hand out heavy penalties to those found to be in breach.We have to change the mind set of these crooks.Offering financial help will never achieve this- it will just give them yet another way out

at the expense of others.They are crooks.My builder reneged on our agreement and then went out and purchased a £60k Porche.



A

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 11:50

BrightonJim, I think it's called the "way they do things in Cyprus." There is nothing wrong with the basis of Marian's plan. Get together, form a committee, release the shared money in stages. What is at fault is the foundation of this plan. Perhaps more information will be published, not just talked about, which will show how getting title deeds are assured. I've looked again at the HBPG website and still it has not been updated to explain how the plan will overcome the fact that, even in the Greatstones case it appears, the deeds were not secured until extra money was forthcoming.

BJ, you know that deeds are being used to break a contract and to blackmail purchasers to create an unexpected debt. This means that those who don't/can't pay up lose because those who do pay up PERPETUATE THE SITUATION which, in the Greatstones example, caused two people to not receive kocans. Yes, you're right, apart from mass and continual protest against this scam, Marian's plan is the best on offer.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 12:02

BJ, my problem with the plan is that it seems that the builder is happy to let the deeds be held in a trust but not in the purchasers names. What does that tell you about the builder's belief in the ability of the trust to stop them using it to raise money? I still say, get rid of the failed builder and get one with sound finances. If they were decent then they would agree to this, and be embarrassed at having let their customers down. Of course not, greed stops them acting in such an honourable way.

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 21:58

Hi all,

I thought I should add to this thread just to clarify a couple of things. I was at the meeting and stood up to explain what had happened in our situation on the Esentepe 1 Greatstone Site. Marian got involved in our site, and gave us a prototype to work with. This has been a success. She doesn’t do the work for you; she simply guides you in the right direction, but is always there if you need her.

Firstly we had to get everyones email address so we were all in contact. Then we could find out the exact financial situation of our site, and begin working towards a solution.

We found out that our builder had received 98% of the funds for our site!! and was still pushing for more, we were previously unaware of this because we were not all in contact with each other. The two percent left outstanding we discovered was enough to get 'almost' all of the work completed on our site, so we had to act quickly and together .......

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 21:59

We opened a bank account with three signatories. We had a meeting with our builder, some of the residents, and Marian to agree a way forward.

The builder gave us a list of outstanding payments each villa still had, this was matched with what the owners had already told us. The plan was that as each owner paid their ‘agreed’ final payment into our bank account. The builders’ part of the arrangement was in return, he would transfer title with each individual owner as soon as the funds had arrived in our ‘pot’. It worked and he kept his part of the bargain. We had the funds under our control to finish our site, and the villa owners had their title deeds. This gave us control over our site getting finished.

Once all the funds were received we could work directly with the electricity company, road company, Belediyesi for our water etc, paying them directly from our pot.

It worked for everybody but the two who ‘chose’ not to work with the plan. One of the owners said he did not have....

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 22:00

funds to pay his final payment, although he has since found the funding, but it is now too late……



John Cooper (wynyardman) the second villa owner could not ‘agree’ his final payment with the builder. Nobody else on our site had this problem in agreeing finances, and since JC had been in dispute over finances with the builder on and off since he ‘first’ signed his contract, (you will all no doubt remember the ‘my pool is included in my contract’ scenario) nobody on our site was really surprised that he was arguing again over finances.

Following his final fallout with the builder on site, John came down and told me how much he owed, he told me how the ‘my pool is in my contract’ situation arose, much to my amazement. Because up until that day I believed he must have had the wrong contract! He is good at ‘sounding very honourable and truthful, and I for one had believed all of it. He is the master of playing on words, but I know the truth now........

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 22:01

, and if anybody is really that interested I will tell you the story he told me that day…..



Marians plan was a success on our site; it should have been a success for all of the 19 residents instead of only 17. It works if enough of you work together. If the same plan is applied to the Construction Union, I believe it will be good, especially for sites that have nobody living here to oversee and arrange everything on their behalf.

I am confused over whether titles deeds will be issued as soon as all the funds are received using the Construction Union. This was the main reason it worked on our site. You have your title; therefore you feel safe to spend further money on your site.

It has cost on average an extra £3000 per villa over the original contract price, some more and some less to finish each of our villas. We could have chosen not to pay the final payments or the extra money to finish our villas........

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 22:02

Had we chosen that route we would very probably be looking at a derelict site now, with more than half the villas under the nightmare of a memorandum. We don’t feel as though we have given in to the builder, we just feel glad to be safely in our villas, and swimming in our pools this summer…….



Some people are saying on this forum that it is blackmail, or an easy escape for the builder. This could be true, but until the laws change here to prevent this happening. It is at least another option that could be available for those in a similar situation to us, should they ‘choose’ to utilise it. Hopefully one day the laws will change and the Construction Union ‘option’ won’t be needed. But we can only work with what we have available now.



I wish you all well in sorting out your individual property issues, however you choose to try to tackle them.



Denise

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 07:52

CyprusB wrote, "I am confused over whether titles deeds will be issued as soon as all the funds are received using the Construction Union."

That's the ONLY weakness as far as I can see and in your example you appear to have got round it. Yes it is blackmail but I for one would agree that if the the only other option is losing £100k then £3k is a small price to pay. I will change my mind about the HBPG plan if the means of blackmail is removed as soon as the ransom is paid, i.e. deeds are issued, otherwise this is just a variant of what most people have had to do anyway.

For all current purchasers, could HBPG put a notice on their homepage telling people that they will be leaving themselves open to possible blackmail in the future if they don't get title deeds at the same time as paying more than just a deposit, which should be placed in an escrow account. If HBPG do not make this clear after 5 years in existence then, IMHO, they are guilty of sustaining the problem.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 08:17

Malsancak, it goes without saying that the Kocan should be transferred and, if everyone hasn't got their PTP, maybe, another option is for the purchasers to pool their resources and start a limited company and get the Kocan transferred into the company's name (each purchaser holds an equal amount of shares in the company) Then as each of the purchasers get their PTP, their Kocans can be transferred into their own name.



I know that there are complications to this suggestion, but it is something to consider and gets control of the Kocan.



I wonder if the two people that dropped out with hindsight, wish that they had joined in. I know that I would.



Like I said earlier, Marion Stoke's plan may be last chance saloon for some people and has to be seriously considered. This is not pie in the sky. The Greatstone's success story shows that it can work.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 08:33

Hindsight is 20:20 vision.

giving into blackmail should work but unfortunately it doesn't always, partly because of the morals of blackmailers. You really don't want me to quote all the times when it didn't work but if readers want to comment on cases when they paid extra and still didn't get title deeds, this might add some balance to the Greatstones success story.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 09:34

Malcolm - I gave in to my builder who asked for more money for extras (blackmail as you put it), but I got into my house and in TRNC, possession is 9/10ths of the law. Eventually, I got a Kocan too, but not before the builder asked me to pay the KDV (it was in the contract that he should pay it) - in the end, I didn't pay the KDV



Marian Stoke's plan isn't the Holy Grail especially for the people with Mortgages and Memorandums on the Kocan, but the alternative - to hold the final payment then, wait, issue proceedings etc. is a risky business



All the buyers getting together is a good idea, surely - if nothing else, it sticks a bit of pressure on the builder and if the common consensus is not to go with the HBPG plan, but to sue, at least the costs can be shared

pg2464


Joined: 18/07/2010
Posts: 42

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 10:08

I am new to the TRNC, yet, have experienced the same problems as many, with the exception that my wife is a Turkish/Cypriot, and we have no problems with our deeds. Our problem is with the builders who take your payments yet, do not finish your work. I have worked as a Police Detective in the United States and have filed criminal charges against builders for the same things that many have experienced, why aren't the Police remotely interested in criminal prosecution of these builders. I have offered my services to prosecute these builders, yet, the police seems dis-interested. We should form a group of people who can effectively pressure the local police to at least contact these builders and question them regarding their activities. In addition a theft is a theft take something from a shop and you are taken away, but steal thousands and thousands during a business transaction and it is classified as a civil case. Again a Theft is a Theft....

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 10:15

pg2464, there is home buyers pressure group at http://www.homebuyerspressuregroup.net, they've been trying to do what you say but with little success. It seems that if a business doesn't give you something they take £100,000 for there is nothing you can do but if you allegedly take something from a business, e.g. a pot of paint, and don't pay for it then you'll be arrested immediately and placed in prison and then have to go to court 48 times. That's apparently what counts as fair here.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 10:26

Anyone coming here and expecting UK/European standards of justice has their expectations set way too high.



The system here doesn't work in the same way. Not what you know, but who you know.



Pick a fight with the wrong person and you will end up in trouble. Stamp your feet and shout and in the end you will lose out!



How many times do some have to witness it before the penny drops!

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 10:52

Thank you Dee for explaining your story. I had already heard it at Tuesday's meeting.



Unfortunately, there are far too many only too ready to knock all the hard work the HBPG do. In the absence of anything else, and it has already been stated that this plan will not help everyone, it is all that is being made available to us other than litigation.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:08

Harvey, you're right but perhaps it is time for a organisation to be formed that is willing to put PRESSURE on the government. I can still remember HBPG's criticism of ABAG's determination to do just that. Perhaps if HBPG were to just get on with what they do then they wouldn't open themselves up for counter criticism.

Washerman, sorry but the old that's the way it is and shall remain for evermore doesn't even wash for TCs living here. My experience is that people who stand up for themselves tend to become less of a target over time. I wonder if the Russians will show the way forward, if an extra £10,000 is demanded I've got a feeling that perhaps they'll spend that money taking out a different kind of contract. I was hearing about my Russian neighbour's conversation with a builder which made me feel that that's not far from the truth.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:23

the criticism of ABAG's protest by HBPG can be found here http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/Press/CT150907_aga.html

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:29

malsancak



I, and many others would gladly join an organisation that was able to put pressure on the Government but how do you set about doing that? Do you think that after all this time ( six and seven years in a lot of cases)the Government really care what is happening in the construction industry? What exactly has been achieved? The Goverment know about all the scams and problems, especially all the unpaid builders taxes but are not prepared to do anythin about it. In my case my builder has taken £2.5 million and no one has a house but no one in Government, either this one or the last is interested.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:08

I take no pleasure from the fact that on the first, original Cyprus BB of Steve's, I used to get criticised for saying that everyone must be careful as this could end up to be one of the biggest property scams in history.



I am sorry to hear about your problems Harvey and sympathise. Are you in touch with the other buyers?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:11

Harvey, of course I know that the government knows about all the scams. The only difference between me and you is that I don't believe that they HBPG has put on enough pressure to stop those scams continuing.

When you read in Cyprus Today, but strangely not in Cyprus Star, of how everything is going to be OK now, I'm reminded of other news items a few years ago with titles such as, "Aga Buyers happy now!" and "HBPG encouraged" (with PCO) and I'm reminded of the saying 'fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.' That's why my ONLY criticism of the HBPG/Plan is that it appears that purchasers are denied title deeds in exchange for the money.

A separate movement would be one which demonstrates against the two governments for allowing these scams to CONTINUE. HBPG can deal with the PAST problems but someone has the deal with NOW!

NO KOCAN, NO MONEY!

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:17

Washerman



Thank you for your concern. Yes I am now in touch with all the buyers from my site but it took 3 years to find them. I am also in touch with some of the buyers from other sites. There are 6 sites and only one where buyers have their houses and that is because his mother owns the land there and he owns several houses. The £2.5 million is only the money we know about and this from 3 sites, he has had a lot more.



Unfortunately, in the euphoria of 2004 and the subsequent building boom very few people were aware of the problems and believed the lies told by estate agents and lawyers. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I refuse to give up.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:19

Malcolm - the problem is bringing like-minded people together and HBPG have managed to do that.



We don't know what pressure (if any) is being brought to bear HBPG or, its organisers by the authorities or, what information is available to them that makes them recommend this option for buyers.



If we did, we may all have a different opinion.



People have to seriously consider their proposals

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:23

Malcolm



I agree with No Kocan, No Money and this will help all future problems but what of the 11,000 previous problems. Who is going to sort those and how do we put pressure on the Government?

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:26

Sorry, that should have read buyers.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:35

Another unknown quantity is what rules the Politicians have to adhere to

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:38

dare I say, PROTESTS such as ABAG are organising on 4th October? As far as I understand it the TRNC government has washed its hands of responsibility and is not accountable to the world community. Turkey however is accountable for allowing injustices on an island they police. Not the least because the Turkish military are being accused of delaying the PTP process and this means that title deeds cannot be issued at the time of purchase.

Turkey in the news will have the biggest impact, I believe.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:40

Malcolm, but isn't that why the candlelight vigil is being held at the Turkish Embassy?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:51

Washerman, HBPG have brought some people together and have been quoted in Cyprus Today as saying that unless the plan is accepted they will not help people who come to them. There are 11,000 victims out there according to Harvey and most can't or won't help themselves and so have few options. I have a simple response to being victimised and that is to put pressure on those who try to do it to me. Name and Shame, the scammers thrive when they're allowed to remain in the dark.

Your claim about HBPG doing things they are no publicising reminds me of their famous database compiled in 2005, pity they didn't allow it to remain online so people now in trouble could have known which builders, lawyers and estate agents were involved in litigation, at least. I think people have been told to blame themselves too often instead of blaming the builders, estate agents and lawyers who are still involved in the same scams without anyone knowing what they did in the past.

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 13:25

Malcolm



I will join the protest. I will do whatever it takes to get the Government to do something. I have been at the last 3 protests to stop the auctions but how are you going to get the other 11,000 people to do something when, the unjust and highly publicised auctions only attracted at most, 200 peolple?



Re post 109: I can not speak for whatever is posted on the HBPG website but perhaps the HBPG did not want to be seen to be advocating damaging the TRNC economy. We all make mistakes, you even used do advertise the well known Girne estate agent and lawyer associated with the AGA scam on your home buyers pressure group website. As I said before, hindsight is a wonderful thing and we should not all be falling out and criticising any new initiative but working together to try to find a solution.

Harvey


Joined: 01/10/2007
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 13:33

I certainly agree with you on the fact that 'people have been told to blame themselves too ofter instead of blaming the builders, estate agents and lawyers who are still involved in the same scams without anyone knowing what they did in the past.' I have named my builder, estate agent and lawyer as I have proof of the scam but all too often posts are pulled on here because of the advertisers.



One of the problems at the moment is that the lawyers who got us into this mess and no longer have any income from so called 'conveyencing' are now advocating litigation in order that they can make yet more money because of the time that these cases take to go through the Courts.

pg2464


Joined: 18/07/2010
Posts: 42

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 13:36

Washerman.....



No one coming to the TRNC expects UK/US standards but we as people expect and demand honesty in our everyday dealings.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 14:38

I am not a spokesperson for HBPG in fact, I have nothing at all to do with them and I do not need to defend them, but Malcolm, imagine for a minute that you published something on your web site and you were advised by lawyers to remove it or, else face serious consequences (and I am not saying that this is what happened in the case that you have mentioned) - would you remove it?



Why do people expect honesty? If you jumped into shark infested waters, would you not expect to get bitten?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 15:33

Washerman, in the case of the star rating I was advised by a lawyer working with the HBPG that I could keep the pages up and not face litigation, Marian Stokes, and then some other members of the committee demanded the pages were taken down. As for jumping into shark infested waters as a method of getting rid of sharks, not recommended. There are better ways of getting rid of sharks!

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 22:23

The HBPG has towed the line for a very long time! tried to be all things to all men! without upsetting the Government



They have achieved? but still nothing in the TRNC is black and white so many grey areas! certainly for new victims



We can't continue to cow tow to whatever TRNC Government of the day decides is suitable for them, somewhere along the line, we have to stand up and be counted and fight for our rights!



pq2464 says and I quote "we dont expect US/UK standards" well I'm afraid I do expect US/UK standards the EU ploughs an awful lot of money into the TRNC which is my money, and I expect the TRNC Government to at least recognize that as a EU citizen I am entitled to compensation for their failings, and boy have they failed so many



Why do people expect honesty washerman? because without it you are nothing! it's called respect for the law! sharks are everywhere,in every country, but most civilized Governments acknowledge the sharks! theTRNC have let them have a feast!

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 06:55

Why do the EU plough money into the TRNC, when they know that the system is failing? Because the Govt.s of Europe have warned us all not to buy here! Do you think that they are concerned about the situation after issuing their warnings to us?



The Gov.t here is going to put expat interests before that of its own citizens? I don't think so. Like I have already said, expectations way too high!



If you are looking for honesty in the TRNC, you better bring your hiking boots!

pollymarples


Joined: 08/08/2010
Posts: 1778

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 07:07

Why not expect British Standards - who was born with knowledge or skills - they are too damn idle to learn

and not prepared to work long enough to gain experience and hone their expertise. Why should they

when we excuse their every misdeed and never challenge the ' This is Cyprus' mantra which some

of the British even repeat. Whilst you put up with it, it will continue. Wake up and smell the coffee.

challenge itn with every last breath in your body. You wouldn't take it in U.K, why do you take it here?

If you don't, then you will have only one person to blame - YOU.

pollymarples


Joined: 08/08/2010
Posts: 1778

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 07:08

Why not expect British Standards - who was born with knowledge or skills - they are too damn idle to learn

and not prepared to work long enough to gain experience and hone their expertise. Why should they

when we excuse their every misdeed and never challenge the ' This is Cyprus' mantra which some

of the British even repeat. Whilst you put up with it, it will continue. Wake up and smell the coffee.

challenge it with every last breath in your body. You wouldn't take it in U.K, why do you take it here?

If you don't, then you will have only one person to blame - YOU.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 08:32

This thread is about HBPG plan to solve the property crisis although, I'm not sure that they may describe their plan as such.



Purchasers expected the house-buying system in TRNC to protect the interests of the purchaser and as it turns out, it didn't.



They expected to be offered the same type of safeguards here as are available in the UK and the rest of Europe.



What they didn't expect was to be left to rely on worthless contracts, the dubious methods of some of the legal fraternity and laws that didn't protect their interests. A lot expected higher standards of build quality etc. etc.



This just isn't the UK or, Europe. I am not criticizing anyone, just saying that people's expectations were too high. Me included!



Whether you accept the situation as it is now is a matter of personal preference. Some may decide to accept their lot and opt for a hassle free life. Other choose to fight on for the greater good, like I say personal preference

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:17

Washerman, you are talking as if 100% of property transaction were a scam. This is not true and even though I don't have the figures I would expect the vast majority of sales to have, as in my case, resulted in contented buyers who have their tile deeds. This means that the scams are being run by a particular type of person, a criminal minded fraudster. I believe the TRNC government has the same ability in running an economy as they have of running CTA and are hampered by different parties whenever they try to stop these frauds, or to run a successful airline.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:43

I think that most readers will realise that not everyone has been scammed and really, it shouldn't be necessary for me to qualify what I have said (to that degree)



What we refer to as scams, didn't necessarily start off as deliberate scams at all, they were just business contracts where the supplier got into trouble for one reason or, another and took the necessary measures to keep things going.



When things went wrong, there were no system/laws to protect the customers or, to stop the vendors from getting in too deep.



More of us should have realised that this was always a posiibility - our expectations were too high

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:47

w, most of us should have realised? I suppose in the same way that anyone recently buying a house in the UK should have realised that they would end up with negative equity. I can't remember many discussions about this when the market was booming in the TRNC and the definition of booming is that this is when most people bought.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:54

They should have certainly considered it as a possibility and not took on too high a mortgage.



You mustn't have used the first BB in TRNC - Steve's board and there were others. There have been plenty of horror stories in the public domain for as long as I can remember.



People's expectations were too high - that's all I have said.



I am not trying to justify the wrongdoings or, condoning anyone's actions.



Anyway, why are you bashing me? It's not fair!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 10:19

oh, I agree that the people who used the internet most definitely should have known about these issues but, like with smoking cigarettes, that doesn't necessarily mean they expect the worse will happen to them. It's not like warning to not eat poison which there is a 100% chance of killing you. For example, Washerman, I'm sure you know that, according to Cyprus Today, brucellosis infected meat has possibly made it into the shops but have you stopped eating meat? I'm also sure you know how dangerous the roads are here and also take all the precautions associated with non-chlorinated mains water, you have an annual medical checkup, you never drink in excess and keep your weight under control etc...

The trouble is that only when the tragedies strike that people start blaming themselves for ignoring the signs.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 10:48

There was no warnings either on the Internet or by the British & Commonwealth Office, or by the HBPG in 2003/4!



We all went like lambs to the slaughter!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 13:07

with 115 votes in only 6% accept the HBPG/Con and the rest expect title deeds before spending another penny. 37% would not spend another penny more that their contracted payment. The appeasement strategy, whilst perhaps a lifeline to those with little hope of their builder fulfilling the contract, creates a worrying precedent which might persuade even more builders to ask for more than the contract states.

If you would like to vote then go to http://www.northcyprusfreepress.com/2010/09/15/hbpg-and-construction-unions-plan-to-solve-property-crisis-in-trnc/

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 19:59

Written on behalf of Wynyardman who's computer is down at present............

Firstly, I would like to say how distasteful I find our personal affairs, mostly given in confidence, have been published on an open forum..........

If this is not a Prima Facie case where the HBPG proposals need to be questioned, I do not know what is.........

As stated previously, any residents association should be formalised with a legal document outlining who is responsible for what. In our case Mrs. D. Arundel stated "if we paid over £7,000 there was a window of opportunity to gain our Kochan". This money was duly paid. It was a STRICT CONDITION that if the Kochan could be obtained, our funds would be returned. At the time of writing, these funds have not be returned to our account, despite several polite requests from our advocate. I pointed out to Mrs. Arundel that by giving personal undertakings, she left herself legally vunerable to legal action, if the funds............... cont/.........

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 20:07

where not returned to our account. This is still the position at the time of writing. For the avoidance of doubt, I would like to outline the situation from our perspective............

There was a dispute on the contract. It did state the swimming pool was included in the price (we did not press our advantage), if Mrs Arundel wishes to clarify the position, Marian has a copy of the contract and offered us full support. This was two years ago.

In July 2008, the writer flew out to the TRNC to resolve any differences with the Builder. After a week's negotiations (very amicable), an agreement was reached. This was termed amendment to contract dated 15th July 2008 and put right many of the anomalies within the contract. It was signed by both parties and subsequently confirmed in writing by the Builder. Yet again Marian was involved and copies are available from her if required. There was no objection from any party.

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 20:15

By September 2008 100% of the contract was paid (forgiving penalties due under the contract).

In May 2009 a payment of £6,000 was offered to the residents pot but was declined by Tasir Hilkat. In March 2010 £7,000 was offered to the residents pot and was accepted by the Builder but subsequently declined by Mrs. Arundel.

Shortly thereafter memorandums for the Builders debts were issued against our site which made any deal beyond our means.

Even where the matter settled, we still have to fund the cost of electricity to our villa and mains water and completion to the pool which amounts to a further £5,000 +. Despite the fact it was the writer who requested that Marian be invited to assist the site, the solution proffered was to pay £10,000 more than we contracted for and put matters temporarily outwith our means.

In summary, the HBPG initiative most certainly did not work for us. An application the The Courts has been made to be nominated as beneficial owners.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 21:04

I assume that Cyprus8 is Mrs Arundel (of HBPG) and she, in message 97, is making accusations against John Cooper (Wyn) and he in return is accusing her of retaining £7000 meant to pay for the kocan that now cannot be issued as he is one of the two people the HBPG at Greatstones did not help. Bit confusing, so would anyone like to confirm this?

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 06:21

Malcolm.....my comment regarding warnings being given about the dangers of purchasing in the TRNC was an answer to TRNCvictim's assertion that it was wrong for Europe to be ploughing money into the TRNC with the system as it is.



I'm not mocking people for ignoring the warning (myself included) merely pointing out why Europe needs not consider the plight of purchasers when allocating money to the TRNC

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 08:00

Malcolm, regards infected meat making it into the shops. I ate meat for Sunday dinner and initially, I felt a bit ruff! ruff! but I'm alright Moooooooooooooooo! Moooooooooooo!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 08:10

w, I wonder if the TRNC will be allowed to apply the same standards if they are granted Direct Trade with the EU

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 08:24

Malcolm, it's an interesting question to consider, but Europe may allow direct trade and just issue a similar warning to that of the property warning - as far as they are concerned, their 'backs' are covered.

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 16:11

malsancak, for clarification I'm not part of the HBPG, I just took their advice and worked with it for the rest of our site, and attended the recent meeting. I wish I had the stamina to do that job, but sadly not.



Wheelbarra, I have done nothing but try to help you, both when our pot was started up, and recently when I was made aware of an opportunity for you to repay the memorandum, along with villa owners on other sites.

I tried to help you as you don't live here. As you know the morning we went in to try to repay the memorandum 'on your behalf', along with the other residents, it was discovered that a further injunction had gone over the propertys that very morning. We continued to work on your behalf to try to find who had put them on, and if we could negotiate getting them lifted from your villas, in order to continue with paying off your memorandum. When it became clear that this wasnt going to be successful your money was refunded to your lawyer in full on 11/08/2010.

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 16:20

I have the receipt for the money that was returned to your lawyer in full, and an email from your lawyer which includes confirmation that you were also copied in on.

The other villa owners were very grateful for our help, and perseverence in trying to get the memorandum lifted, and the efforts that went into it. Sadly you have chosen to advise 'me' to take legal action. Thank you so much......

You can be rest assured that as a direct result of this 'threat' not only 'you' but none of the other villa owners are going to get any help, as I cannot afford to put myself in the firing line of such threats. Sadly they were really nice people, but their memorandum can only be repaid at the time of yours.

Shame on you Mr Cooper.......

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 16:27

PS... Wheelbarra Wynyardman, I have never refused £7000 into our pot, and I have never been in a posittion to refuse it. I can only assume you want to continue fighting with everybody at every stage, but it isnt getting you anywhere, and I do not want to fight anyway, because I know the truth.....you told me. Please just try to be nice to people, its so much easier.



Denise

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 19:55

Message146,



Mrs Arundel has adopted the stance of spokesperson for the HBPG. She is just a resident,



We were put under extreme pressure to pay over £10000 that we did not owe, Cyprus B had been shown proof, £100% that our conrtractrual obligations had been met (including all extras). She continued to claim that we owed money, and our payments would cover other residents whitegoods. We had residents from the site writing and demanding that we payed what we owed. WE OWED NOTHING AND MRS ARUNDEL KNEW IT.



She refused to repay the conditional £7000 we payed and the cheque profferred was not accepted by the bank.





wynyardman



WHEN MRS ARUNDEL WILL IT BE RETURNED TO OUR ACCOUNT, AS PER YOUR VERY CLEAR UNDERTAKING?

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 20:05

MSG 147,



You may well have a receipt from my advocate, but the cheque was refused by the bank! When is the money to be in my account?



You gave every effort to support many on the site, who are no doubt very grateful. I'm alright Jack is a well known reaction from people that have got what they wanted. You cannot ride ruffshod over people who chose to act within the law, and follow due orocess.. I FOLLOWED MY ADVOCATES ADVICE!



Empty threats hold no fear for me. I WILL NOT GIVE IN TO BLACKMAIL, I WILL FOLLOW DUE PROCESS, I HAVE

FOLLOWED MY ADVOCATES ADVICE. I AM SORRY IF IT DID NOT ALLOW YOU TO FULFILL YOUR WISHES BUT I

REPECT THE LAWS OF THE TRNC, WHILST I HAVE CONTRACTRUAL OBLIGATIONS THERE



wynyardman

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 20:16

Msg148,



You refused £7000 that was offerred to the Residents Pot. I sat in Munir Akils Office with my son, when he spoke to the builder WHO ACCEPTED OUR OFFER, of £3K cash plus £ for £ up to £4K for extras other residents had paid. I gave my advocate £7K in cash to fund that offer.



I posted on the residents board that I was delighted that we had reached agreement, and disclosed the detail.



Two days later you posted that the builder had not accepted our offer. Musa of Munil Akil (your advocate) can confirm

the detail.



Mrs Cooper and I have only met 4 or 5 pe0ple off the site. You are resident and have had the opportunity to manipulate/



I have stated the truth somewhat reluctantly which can be verified as stated.



We value our relationships and all we seek is peace and happiness. We are retired and as pensioners have to be cautious with expenditure. We budget and provide for our committments. Guess buying in The TRNC demands more!



wynyardman

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 21:05

Buying in the TRNC definitely demands more! certainly in health and well being, it matters not a jot whether you are a pensioner a criminal! or an Investor! all you need is money! when you have none, you can go to hell, what your contract says is worthless, justice is worthless!



NO KOCAN NO MONEY Should be ingrained into the minds of Future Lambs to the Slaughter!



Without your DEEDS you have NOTHING

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 22:03

Wheelbara (assume it is still you John, as you say "Mrs Cooper and I")



Not sure how I have adopted myself as spokesperson for HBPG just because I went to a meeting, and have a positive view of their policies. But your views continue to help me in showing others how you continue to ‘twist’ and ‘translate’ the truth into your own language. Thank you.



I only joined this thread as a positive to the original post. I did this because ‘you were trying to ‘discredit’ the efforts that had gone into your personal plight, by not only myself, but also the time given by the other signatories on our account, and Marian from HBPG.



You had every opportunity as did the rest of the residents on the site to obtain your kochan. You chose at every avenue to refuse the advice given. This has resulted in you being stuck in a place where you don’t want to be, but need someone else to blame, such is human nature, but you need to stop now.......

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 22:04

. You need to accept that you are where you are through no fault of anyone else. You have been your own worst enemy, not the builder, not me, not the rest of the residents (whose opinions were only gained from your (usually rambling and inconsistent) emails, as they mostly all live in the UK and it is their only form of communication).



There are so many unfortunate people on this forum that are in a really bad situation regarding their property, ‘through no fault of their own’, and there is nothing they can do about it, with very few to turn to for help. I cannot stand by while you ‘act’ like the poor victim to others viewing this site that are relying on honesty and needing help to go forward.



At your lowest you were by your own admission arguing over 4k!. This argument on a 170k property, what was the point? Nobody on our site has ever understood your logic, neither has anyone who tried to help you....

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 22:05

. Please don’t’ insult the others on this forum, who have never had the countless ‘opportunities’ you have had to correct their situation. I am sure many of them would be delighted to have the Greatstone Park problem, instead of some of the ‘almost impossible situations they find themselves in.

We at Greatstone Park weren’t in the best position, with a builder that had run out of money. But we had to work with what we had. What we ‘did’ have was a site that was incidentally the ‘only’ site of Greatstones that was ‘owned’ by our builder. This negated the usual landowner/builder dispute, which some of the good friends I made along the way, are still very unfortunate enough to be caught up in. We were also fortunate enough to be on a site that hadn’t been ‘mortgaged’ or had loans taken out on by our builder. On top of that, it was very hard to find a way for me and the builder to work on a ‘new’ plan ‘together’ to move our site forward to secure every ones kochans and utilities.....

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
21/09/2010 22:06

.. But 17 of us worked with what we had, while you chose to continue to fight.

Again, I ask, please don’t insult the ‘real’ victims of this forum, by pretending to be one of them.



I wish everyone again the best of luck going forward with their property issues in the TRNC.



Denise

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 11:04

Written on behalf of Wynyardman.



Cyprus B Your messages 156,155.154,153,148,147,146,99,98,97,96,95.

I hope that you now feel better having disclosed our personal affairs, largely given in Confidence. Shameful.



It was the writer that went to see Marion and asked her to help us, but I passed it over to you as you were resident on site. You omit to advise that some 2 years ago I suggested that we should all put our final payments, and kochans into an Escrow account, which was largely what Marion suggested. Had my scheme been adopted ALL OF THIS, would have been unnescessary.



For clarification you were the spokesperson and liason wth HPBG and residents,



We were told by you that in order to be part of the residents "pot' we would have to pay £10K that we did not owe.



In addition we were to pay again for our electricity connection, mains water.£2k plus to finish the swimming pool.



I advised you from day 1 that I would not give in to blackmail. Marions plan relied o

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 11:18

Cyprus B,



WE ARE AS MUCH VICTIMS AS ANY OTHER BUYERS WHO REFUSED TO GIVE INTO BLACKMAIL BY THE BUILDERS.



THE FACTS.



By September 08 100% of our contractrual obligations had been paid. (Penalties forgiven)



In May an additional £6K was offerred to the residents pot. The builder refused our Kochan...He wanted ABOUT £10K



In March 2010 £7K was offerred to the Residents Pot AND ACCEPTED BY THE BUILDER but was refused by You



Mrs Arundel, alledgedly on behalf of the Residents.



In July you said there was a window of opportunity to obtain our Kochan, but we would have to pay £7K immediatley



If however the Kochan could not be obtained our money would be refunded. Two days later you advised that the



initiative failed, but that you were holding on to our money. I know there have been several E mails from our



Advocates to you, but at this point in time our money has not been refunded!

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 11:31

Cyprus B.



We had one opportunity to get our kochan, That involved paying £10K in blackmail, and paying to finish the villa ourselves.



That was neither acceptable or possible at that time. (we subsequently applied to our Pension Fund Trustees to get



more cash released.Hence the £7K sent to you)



How you can say we are not victims in such circumstances beggars belief. Smacks of I am alright Jack! to me.



As you have chosen to publish my personal affairs, I wonder if you would be happy to publish how much YOU paid over



and above your contractrual obligations (after forgiving penalties.) in order to get your kochan. I'll tell you what, I wont



hold my breath waiting for an answer. I supported the Marion Stokes initiative and I supported the residents " pot"



as far as I was able, but it certainly did not work for me.It did however work for 17 and I am delighted for you.



Based on My Advocates advice we are now forced to follow an alternative strategy.



wyny

wheelbarra


Joined: 29/06/2008
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 11:42

Back to the thread,



I think the HPBG/ Construction Union proposals are flawed.



Any such agreement should be enshrined in law. Possibly with Limited Liability Protection.



If people from an ad hoc committee are put in a position where they give personal undertaking they leave themselves



vunerable to legal action and considerable legal costs. Where is the protection for them?



In our case Marion suggested we should give in to the blackmail and pay. Once the builders find out this they will have



another field day! !And as for the Construction Union finishing off the properties,, it is their members who caused the



problems in the first place. It still relies on good faith for the builders to hand over the kochans.



Bit like saying "trust me I am a salesman"



Just my opinion, thats all.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 19:38

Message155.



An interesting comment (or slip.)



You state that only Greatstone Park Esentepe is the only site owned by Greatstone??



Whatever happenned to Esentepe2 Lapta2 Incescu ,Malataya

MORE TO THE POINT, WHATEVER HAPPENNED TO THE GREATSTONE ASSETS ON THOSE SITES.?



£2 million plus?? If I am to be a creditor of Greatstone Constructions I will want answers. Let us just hope



that our application for Beneficial Ownership is successful.



As previously stated ...........



I abide by contracts , and the laws of the land in which I invest. I do not give in to Blackmail . I follow



due process.I employ advocates and follow their advice .







wynyardman

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
22/09/2010 20:13

wynyardman/Msg 161: 'I abide by contracts , and the laws of the land in which I invest. I do not give in to Blackmail . I follow due process.I employ advocates and follow their advice...'



That is precisely what has landed us ALL in the sh1t?



Why?



Because words like 'Contract', 'Deed of Assignment', ethical' and 'honourable' are meaningless in Cyprus - North & South!



We've proved it by sampling the TRNC 'legal' system and ended up, on what should have been a 'watertight' case in any civilised country, losing half our life savings.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 07:07

I can nearly hear the axe grinding in the background

BrightonJim


Joined: 27/07/2010
Posts: 145

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 10:51

Some people are victims of the TRNC property debacle and are entitled to 100% sympathy.

Others are to an extent architects of their own downfall and deserve less sympathy.

It appears that some of those who consider themselves vitims fall into the latter category.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 11:33

BrightonJim, how's that?

BrightonJim


Joined: 27/07/2010
Posts: 145

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 12:48

If they ignore good advice, they are to some extent architects of their own downfall but obviously the system is the fundamental cause.

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 13:39

buyers thought that their lawyers were the source of good advice. For example BrightonJim, who is giving good advice at the moment? HBPG? They advised using the Property Complaints Office. The Foreign Office? They did not advise of the problem of deeds being mortgaged after sale...

nlang


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 14:43

Wynyardman - you need to see a man in a white coat........

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 16:41

don't worry nlang, just live out here for a few weeks and you too may need the help of a man in a white coat...

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 17:32

I sell white coats, but whatever you do, don't tell mmmmmm

BrightonJim


Joined: 27/07/2010
Posts: 145

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 17:33

Malcancak

I don't know what advice HBPG gave but I do know that the Estate Agents law was widely thought to provide protection against mortgages and other encumbrances and few if anybody foresaw that it did not automatically cover memoranda.

I have heard that the HBPG has helped many people, in particular those on the Greatstone Park development who followed its advice.

I have no association with the HBPG whatsoever but I do feel the continuous criticism must be taking its toll on its resolve to continue to provide its services, to the detriment of many.

It is human nature to find someone else to blame but perhaps rather than take swipes at the HMPG some on this Forum should consider to what extent their own poor decisions caused their problems.

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 17:40

BrightonJim - well said!



One Tuesday, my wife went to HBPG and spoke to Marian and told her about our problem. Marian helped to put everything into perspective for us and we realised that we (in fact) were very lucky.



I do beilieve that Marian and HBPG has helped many people in many different ways. I say, keep up the good work!

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 17:58

perhaps it's worth saying again that whilst HBPG have worked hard to help people solve property problems, as have many lawyers, the current plan, IMHO, could have a weakness and that is leaving the title deeds vulnerable. As there is nothing specifically from HBPG to contradict this I will continue to advise NO KOCAN, NO MONEY! If you think that this is a criticism of everything that HBPG has done, is doing, and will do in the future then that's your problem. If you advise people to give extra money beyond the requirement of the contract without purchasers first receiving title deeds, or those deeds being guaranteed beyond doubt, then I'm sure you will also take on the responsibility if your advice fails. If this sounds harsh then that's because I have nothing but disgust for builders who blackmail people in this way. Perhaps this is the difference between us?

Washerman


Joined: 19/09/2008
Posts: 2301

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 18:00

Mal' - it's the system that allows this to happen, but the initiative must surely be applauded?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 18:06

It seems to me that whatever law is passed in the TRNC, the unscrupulous land owners/builders/developer/advocates/estate agents will all too easily find a way around it.



Best example is the law about registering contracts of sale to protect the buyers interests. Hooray buyers like me thought, protection at last! Then the creditors of the above i.e. banks having granted mortgages simply obtaining memorandums of the debt through a court order completely overriding buyers interests. Are TRNC politicians proud of that?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
23/09/2010 18:08

I do not applaud the initiative unless it secures the deeds first. I've read the HBPG website and the only reference to this plan is scanned copies of newspaper articles which as we well know aren't necessarily the truth. The plan is not NO KOCAN, NO MONEY! and I would have thought that after 5 years of being Robbed that's the only plan to endorse. I've got my kocan and I'm afraid I'm sticking to telling others NO KOCAN, NO MONEY, something my UK lawyers were absolutely insistent on. Go ask a UK lawyer and see what they think of Marian's plan.

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 17:06

Wynyardman, for clarification of my 155 message that you found difficult to understand. The 'land' on which Greatstone Park Esentepe 1 was built, was fortunately owned by our developer i.e. Greatstone Construction. So we did not have the problems that their other sites have where the 'land' the villas are being built on has a different landowner, i.e. Esentepe 2, Malatya Incensu. Hope this makes it clearer for you.

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 17:07

Hi again all,

I spoke to Marian recently and asked your question about the title deeds. The way it was explained was that as it is an ‘arbitration service’, the idea would be that the villa owners, the builder, the Construction Union etc all get together for a meeting to discuss events so far and then devise a plan to pave the way forward. Similar to what we have done on our site, but with a ‘recognised’ body i.e. the Construction Union involved making it more official.



When we did this with Marian, it was ‘she’ that was almost the arbitration service, taking on the same role, but unofficially.

Her thoughts now are that by using the service ‘hopefully’ the title deeds could be transferred first, as ours were. Nothing can be set in stone as everyone’s case will be different. Each depending on the demands and needs of the individual case and developer. For example it may be that one builder like ours, will agree to transfer as soon as the funds are registered.

Cyprus8


Joined: 07/10/2007
Posts: 189

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 17:08

It may also be the case that another developer isn’t prepared to do that. So I guess until you go and try you won’t know. Then when you have had your initial meeting you will be able to make a more informed choice because you will know exactly what is available in your particular situation. So I would imagine some of you will only continue if the title deeds are available immediately. Others may go ahead if the title deeds are guaranteed at a certain stage. Others if their builder or the landowner etc won’t cooperate, or indeed if the villa owners themselves choose not to cooperate then the arbitration won’t continue and a court case will be initiated by one or other.

Hope this helps.



Denise

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 21:04

All this totally unnecessary rigmarole when the government could right the wrongs so easily!



However, if they did, they wouldn't be in office long!