HOW DID THE CYPRUS PROBLEM START ? & wHO STARTED IT ? wHEN?

silcuty21


Joined: 24/05/2010
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 12:55

Hi All



i would like to know who started the cyprus problem and why



please note dont want to know about the past 40 years and the ongong crap of today all i want to know is who and why and when



im really intrested on your points



sylv

nurseawful



Joined: 06/02/2009
Posts: 5934

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 12:59

Buy a book called the 'Genocide Files' by Harry Scott Gibbons and you can read all about it.



Chris

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 13:03

this is definitely a good book to start with!!!!!!!!!

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 13:05

This is quite a good starting point - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus_dispute

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 13:16

Cooper. I would not call that misleading account as a good place to start.

ianwfs


Joined: 08/01/2008
Posts: 563

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 13:47

The idea of Cyprus being Greek probably goes back hundred of years, on the grounds taht it was part of the Greek speaking Byzantine Empire. Certainly the Orthodox church was established here long before the Ottomans arrived (although the Orthodox church was all over the middle-east.)

Possibly the idea of Enosis as we understand it goes back to the Greek war of independence in the 1820s, and that would be a good place to start your research. In 1878, Britain's arrival in Cyprus was welcomed as the Greek Cypriots assumed that a merger with Greece was imminent.

There was a further boost after world war I, when the Ottoman Empire was carved up as punishment for being on the wrong side. The allies agreed that the boundaries of Greece would be pushed northwards, almost to Istanbul. They would also have a a great wedge of land covering Izmir and most of south west Turkey, and an area of northern Turkey.

>>>>

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 13:55

All right Troodo i do apologise, maybe its a good place to finish then.

ianwfs


Joined: 08/01/2008
Posts: 563

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 13:57

<<<
He did win, however, and the territorial claims of the allies had to be revised. That included a population exchange between Greek speaking Turks in Turkey, and Turkish speaking Greeks in Greece being moved to their "homelands".

Italy took ownership of many islands, but as punishment for being on the wrong side in WW2, they were ceded to Greece.

The various aborted territorial claims by Greek speakers over the last 100 years has heightened the feeling that if it once spoke Greek, it should be returned to Greece.

The whole history of the area is interesting, and I've over simplified it, but do some research and you'll be hooked.

ianwfs


Joined: 08/01/2008
Posts: 563

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 14:11

A wedge of my reply was deleted, but the gist of it was that the allies agreed to carve up what we know as modern Turkey. Greece would have the south west, around Izmir, and also a chunk of the northern coast. Italy would have most of southern Turkey, Armenia Eastern and Southern Turkey (although a conflicting claim by the Kurds was never resolved). France and the UK would have spheres of influence in the southeast which would have extended the border of Syria and Iraq.

That was the state of play till a certain Mustafa Kemal came along. He very nearly lost what was seen as a civil war. He had already been sentenced to death in his absence, and had he lost, he would have been executed and nobody would have heard of him. Modern Turkey would have been been a small country round Ankara, and Greece would have been twice its current size.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 14:12

The GC's wanted Enosis and had no place for TC's so they decided to get rid of them. It took them until 1963 to implement their plans and then the killing really got underway. There are plenty of documents, and speeches made by GC's, to prove at least attempted genocide. At least one GC officer has confessed that his orders, when the Turkey’s intervention started, were not to attack Turkish soldiers but TC villages. The sad thing is that the Greeks did not want the GC's in the first place - they called them the whores of the med.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 14:19

The Cyprus Problem started 3 months after the republic was formed in 1960. The ink on the agreement was not dry yet when the elected President and his henchmen Papadobullos, Samson, Clerides, Yorgadjis and some others got together and cooked up a plan called Akritas.

The idea was to get the TCs to riot so that they could eliminate them. The rioting started in 1963, Very simple. The rest is history but apparently there is only 2 pages of information about Cyprus History in the Greek Cypriot history books covering the years 1960 to 1974.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 14:57

The Greek mainland goverment wanted control of Cyprus.

They arranged a coupe.

Both the Greek goverment and the British goverment knew about it happening from what i have read. Who were at the time two of the three guarentor powers here.

Hence the start of the Cyprus problem. Both the GC's and TC's had terrorist movements if thats what you would like to call them.?

The book people have recommended above, I have asked my TC friends to read it and they tell me it has a lot of untruths in it. My personal view is that it is written from a very one sided view point.

The history of Cyprus is complex and the more you read and research the more you will learn, but do it from an unbiased point of view.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 15:03

I have read a few articles and have spoken to a few well-educated (and non-hot-headed) TCs and this is how I would sum up the last 500 years of Cyprus:



Back in the 15th century, before the Ottomans came to power, Latin-speaking Venetians were governing Cyprus. Roughly half the population was Greek, but they were mainly farmers outside the major towns. The Ottomans displaced the Venetians, but on the whole, left the Greeks alone. But seeing as the Ottomans took over the previously-Venetian-owned land, there were many Greek labourers now working for their Ottoman landlords. According to an elderly TC friend of mine, the Greeks (at least at that time) were far more hard-working and as time passed they became more successful and many more Greeks became land-owners.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 15:03

(Continued from above)



The British arrived in the 1870s to use the island as a base in their campaign against Russia and then realising the strategic importance of the island decided to stay. As ianwfs wrote in message 6, immediately following the First World War, when Turkey sided with the Germans, Britain decided to support the Greeks in any land disputes here … and so even more Turkish land passed to the Greeks … furthermore many Turks moved back to the mainland. In the 30s and 40s though, the Brits tried to be fairer in arbitrations between Turks and Greeks … but unfortunately by that time the damage had already been done: By the late 40s the GCs realised they were the dominant ethnic group on the island … and that they didn't want either the Brits or Turks around. So in the 50s EOKA set about getting rids of the Brits and … then the Turks.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:19

all i want to know is who and why and when.



Silkcuty.

Who - The GC's.

Why - Greed and racism.

When - As yfred says right at the off in 1960. But they really got down to getting rid of the TC's in 63 when they removed them from parliament by force and changed the constitution by removal of the thirteen articles that allowed the TC's to share government.

Right or wrong, they should have then changed the constitution and submitted it to Zurich for approval. Fearing it would not be accepted they did nothing. This makes the Roc an illegal state, by international law, and is why Turkey refuses to recognise it - as should every law-abiding nation. But it would seem there is one law for the GC's and no law for the TC's.

Did you know there are more sanctions against the TRNC then Iran?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:27

I have not often read so many inaccurate "historical facts" as in this thread (paraphrasing Winston Churchill, 1921).

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:31

The Cyprus problem started the day man inhabited the island... and it's got worse ever since!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:34

Which facts are inaccurate, Hans. Not mine I hope, do please enlighten us.

cyprusman3



Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:38

The facts are that turkey didn't invade Cyprus initially in 1974 they came as a rescue team to save the Turkish Cypriots from being wiped out because Greece invaded the Island to overthrow the Greek Cypriot government then to destroy the Turkish Cypriots.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:51

And as Sampson said - 'If it wasn't for the Turkish intervention, we would have wiped out all the TC's' - or something like that.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 16:57

Crumpy,



You might want to download from this site and read this work... I hope it will serve to enlighten you as to the nature of the inhabitants.



http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/3656

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 17:07

Re ; msg 16



Hans,



When one says "I have not often read so many inaccurate "historical facts" as in this thread" - one has to explain why - otherwise you just give the impression of a very negative individual. Unlike you, Ianwfs and myself have tried (and maybe failed) to be constructive and summarise the last 500 yrs of Cyprus in a couple of postings! We all know that you are a very knowledgable chappy Hans ... and maybe you can tell us as to what you think is "inaccurate". I would appreciate it - I want to learn what you think - but please don't just tell us we're wrong!

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 17:10

Re : msg 21



Thank you for that suggestion Groucho - I will indeed do that

silcuty21


Joined: 24/05/2010
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 18:34

thanks folks



but we know the 50s onwards



what happened before 1900 to 1940s please lets not talk about 50s onwards we know the story all

versions around 400 and thats just turksh sid e



really appricaite

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 18:50

I tend to think that much of the root of the problem lies in this decision which must have seemed like a good idea at the time:



http://countrystudies.us/cyprus/7.htm



"Rather than suppressing the empire's many religious communities, the Turks allowed them a degree of automony as long as they complied with the demands of the sultan. The vast size and the ethnic variety of the empire made such a policy imperative. The system of governing through millets reestablished the authority of the Church of Cyprus and made its head the Greek Cypriot leader, or ethnarch. It became the responsibility of the ethnarch to administer the territories where his flock lived and to collect taxes. The religious convictions and functions of the ethnarch were of no concern to the empire as long as its needs were met. "



....and so they let the orthadox church into politics and administration. A deadly combination.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 19:02

Re ; msg 24



Actually I would like to know why the British came (and were allowed to come) to the island in the 19th century.



Groucho has advised me to read Samuel Baker's "Cyprus, as I saw it in 1879" but unfortunately I have other things to do at the moment ... like preparing a Year 11 Geometry test I promise though I'll read it in the half-term break.



I guess though Groucho, it was my reference to Russia that you (and possibly Hans) thought was inaccurate. However, my thoughts on the matter are that during the Crimean War (against Russia) in the 1850s the British were based in Turkey and other parts of the Ottoman Empire ... including here ... and with Cyprus' strategic importance, the British thought they should stay. And of course, because the British were allies of the Ottomans, there were no objections from them.



Does anyone else (in a paragraph or two) feel able to give an explanation as to why the British came (and were allowed to come) in the 19th century ?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 19:11

Ok Silcuty21.

It all started when Turks upset the West by clamouring at the gates of Venice, in 16 something or other. Would you believe that is one of the reasons Austria says no to Turkey entering the EU - pathetic really.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 19:27

RE msg 22, Crumpy: I'll write my answer tomorrow morning in this thread - sorry, no time now.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 20:21

Crumpy



Among other things we wanted a base this end of the Suez Canal to protect the approaches. We had Aden at the other end.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 22:03

That fits John ... the Suez Canal was opened in 1869 ... and with Turkey being pally with Britain because of our support in the Crimean War a decade earlier, Britain took the opportunity to set up shop here.

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
18/09/2010 23:05

Read:

1 - TRAPPED BEHIND THE GREEN LINE - 'The story behind the documentary Voices of Blood' by a GREEK CYPRIOT Tony Angastiniotis - ISBN 975-98959-9-4.

Being a Greek Cypriot and an ex-nationalist himself, Tony tries to bring to light some hidden truths that saved his soul from extreme nationalism. As Tony has repeated often: 'Reconciliation is a painful process and there can be no shortcuts on the road to peace for any side.

2 - THE DEATH OF A FRIENDSHIP - A Cyprus Memoir by Chief Matron Turkan Aziz MBE - ISBN 0-9514464-3-6.

This is the life story of one of the most respected personalities to emerge from the recent brutal history of Cyprus. From a gentle upbringing in a country with pronounced religious and racial view, she worked her way up to the top of her choosen profession, nursing, to become the Chief Matron on Cyprus. Then the reign of the terrorist gunmen began and her world, along with her friendships died. Described as a shocking and absorbing tale.

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 01:46

crumpy , are you the only person who has read a book/books on this island , it amases me that people live somewhere and "now" noffink about the history ..............

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 09:13

Apc.

A whole race of people in south Cyprus seem to no nothing about the history of their country between 1963 and 1974.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 09:28

It was reported in the south that the Greek Cypriot Headteachers Association recently voiced concerns and threatened revolt against planned changes to Cypriot history books; changes aimed at providing students with a more informed and balanced view of the period 1960 to 1974... Their objection? - It made their teaching in the past out to be totally without balance and oft blatant lies and pro EOKA propaganda.



Now you know why "A whole race of people in south Cyprus seem to no nothing about the history of their country between 1963 and 1974."

cyprusman3



Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 297

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 09:59

like i said they wanted to eliminate the Turkish Cypriots !! who gives a toss about the history regarding Ottoman period? Or about the English taking India and other countries well after the Ottoman period? its now in the real Now that concerns us the modern history the up do date facts that is the reason for the situation of the Island now !! The reason is that the Greeks were doing a Hitler on the Turkish Cypriots so no matter how you try to evade the issue this is the reality !!! You cant change the truth and live in your preferred illusion as your just sand in the wind like anyone else.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 10:59

But Cyprusman ... as Silcuty21 wrote in message 24 ... we have read on numerous occasions of the events that happened from the late 50s onwards leading up to the Turkish intervention in 1974.



I want to know what changed the attitudes and mentalities of the Greeks: In the 19th century most of them were farmers and labourers working for Ottoman landlords ... and it would seem that at that time the two communities lived relatively peacefully with each other. By the 1950s the Greeks owned most of the land here ... and at least EOKA felt the time was right to (violently) get rid of the British and Turkish.



The time frame for this change of attitude amongst the Greeks and transferal of land to them coincided with the British involvement here ... and so yes, the British influence here is very significant to the "Cyprus Problem"

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:25

re msg 2



or you could ask an educated TC who will tell you this book is a subjective piece of 'history' ...



There are FAR better, educational, objective and factually accurate books to read....



silcuty21: buy your self a copy of Mark Dubin's "Rough Guide to Cyprus" - it will be a useful guide and often references many quotes from a range of authors that are referenced and you can then choose to read - it gives a good grounding in CY history.



The situation today is the result of a mess created by third party nations with varying aims as to what they wanted from Cyprus - some even fuelled the ethnic tensions of the residents of the island ... to ensure continued access to the 'aircraft carrier in the eastern med'



" divide and rule " is a clue for you...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:25

Ian,



They were poorly misled by the Greek mainland and their own church leaders and politicians into believing both the demonising propaganda about the 'Filthy Turks' (their words not mine) plans to take over their birthright and the illusion that it was their right to have it all.



They were told that they could have it all if they were prepared to fight for it... plans were drawn up for the total annihilation of the TCs and it all kicked off.



They didn't get their way and they've been bleating about it ever since.. very successfully to.. The US and UK could take some lessons from them in PR... WMD comes nowhere near.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:32

RE msg 33, troodo: (...) A whole race of people in south Cyprus seem to no nothing about the history of their country between 1963 and 1974. (...)

=> Allow me an important edit of your post: A whole race of people in Cyprus seem to know nothing about the history of their country between 1963 and 1974 and before.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:36

Re ; messages 37 and 38



"The situation today is the result of a mess created by third party nations with varying aims as to what they wanted from Cyprus - some even fuelled the ethnic tensions of the residents of the island ... to ensure continued access to the 'aircraft carrier in the eastern med" - Thanks Mmmmm



"They (the GCs) were poorly misled by the Greek mainland and their own church leaders and politicians into believing both the demonising propaganda about the 'Filthy Turks' (their words not mine) plans to take over their birthright and the illusion that it was their right to have it all." - Thanks Groucho



I, for one, feel I am learning something on this forum

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:41

Crumpy..



we 'forgot' TCs were 'led' to believe 'Taksim' ( division ) was the only solution - TCs are now outnumbers by mainland Turks , and continued to leave the island after being 'saved' ...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:49

Mark, you have problem with mainland Turks.... get over it. Population movement has been a feature of European and Middle Eastern history since records began.



You appear to betray a need to demonise the mainland Turk as though they are some sub-species that ought not be tolerated in Cyprus.



Well if Turkey ever gets into the EU they will have every right to flood the south too...

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 11:54

Hi Mmmmm,



You wrote that many TCs are continuing "to leave the island after being 'saved' "



Actually I know many Istanbul-or-foreign-educated TCs who have come back home ... including my fiance

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 12:51

Re ; msg 31



Hi HildySmith ... I'm seriously thinking of getting "Death of a Friendship" - thanks for the suggestion

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 13:12

So many posts exploring the problems of history, religion, politics, race etc and all to complex for me. My simple solution for happy times in TRNC is to believe that it is none of these factors but a matter of Geology. Unfortunately, at this time, the South is above sea level so do not go there if you do not like it. Sandman 3 seems to have found a way of dealing with it

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 13:16

I think we are confusing the Greek mainland people from Greece and the Greek Cypriot people from Cyprus.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 13:24

RE msg 46, blade: I prefer to use Greek speaking Cypriots (instead of Greek Cypriots) and Cypriot Turks instead of Turkish Cypriots. I find it arguable that the presence on Cyprus since 1570/71 (only 440 years) made the descendants of Ottoman Turks "Cypriots". Correct me if I'm wrong.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 21:13

Turkey is 40 kilomerters from Cyprus, for anyone to belive that there were no Turks here before 1570 is as darf as saying there were no Brits in Normandy before 1066. I have heard some GC's saying there were no Turks here until the British brought them here as cheap labour.



Yes you are right of coures Hans, in msg 39.



Crumpy. The best place to look for what happened here are the newspaper achives of the time, they back up most of what you will read in the book that the Gc's say are Turkish properganda.

For instance - “… Greek cruelties in Cyprus: Greeks have started an attack on the areas where the Turks are living. The Turks are trying to escape from the Greek attacks, 25,000 Turks have already been forced to leave their homes ….”

Daily Express 28 December 1963

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 21:54

Brits in Normandy before 1066. Crickey!



The Normans were Vikings and William was a relative of Harold of England. The whole thing was a total mishmash.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 21:54

RE msg 48, Troodo: (...) Turkey is 40 kilomerters from Cyprus, for anyone to belive that there were no Turks here before 1570 is as darf as saying there were no Brits in Normandy before 1066. (...)

=> 40 kilometres?! I would go on swimming after 40 kms, if I were you...

=> Until about 1180 Cyprus belonged to Byzantium, until 1191 Cyprus was ruled by the Byzantine renegade Isac Comnenus - all of them were very hostile towards the (Selcuk) Turks. If there was an occasional Turk on the Island it was a slave from a raid on the main land. From 1191 (Richard's conquest of Cyprus) nothing can be found in the early manuscripts (Willebrand of Oldenburg, 1211 in Cyprus) about Turks on the island.

I have heard some GC's saying there were no Turks here until the British brought them here as cheap labour. (...)

=> 1570/71, the conquest of Cyprus by the Ottoman Turks, saw ca 200.000 Turks arrive - a couple of thousand stayed after the victory. Just historical facts.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 21:56

My understanding is that a study of DNA by Minnesota University revealed that there is no discernable connection between the Greeks and the "Greek" Cypriots.



The connection is the common language. Rather like Jamaicans and English speak English.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 22:58

As an example - during the dark ages, around 600 AD, when the yellow death swept Britain, many Brits fled to Normandy. Incidently, after this was the time when the Saxons took a firm hold on Briton, sending home messages to there people that Briton was almost deserted and was up for grabs.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 22:59

silcuty,



you ask who started the cyprus problem but do not say what you mean by "cyprus problem"

...to most greek cypriots this is the loss of "their" northern territories when turkish troops landed



to turkish cypriots it was the intimidation of greek cypriots, which after the free north was founded,

has turned into an economic and social blockade of the new state of turkish cyprus

the international community mostly supported the gc view but nowadays have largely lost interest



there is still a question for turkey whose marathon 51-year-old application to join europe is still blocked:

now by france, greece and south cyprus, but immigration issues are more likely the underlying reason



it is argued by some that a reunification of the island would solve the "cyprus problem" (eh?!)

but others forsee only continued disagreement between the communities on such a proposal

...and that if a plan to share power and property was signed it would disintegrate like in 1963



andre

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
19/09/2010 23:41

silcuty 21



Do you know what? I don't know who started it? but I wish to god someone would bloody well finish it! so many victims, so much instability! so much hatred! reading all the arguments, makes me so sad! Cyprus is a relatively small Island, for every one's sake stop the bigotry from all sides, and all nationalities that live in Cyprus live try living together peacefully, the past is past!



Who started the Cyprus Problem and When? is history, concentrate on the future!

yeniboy


Joined: 07/09/2010
Posts: 11

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 08:34

WOW! I am amazed at the ignorance shown above about the history of this Island.

Dear 'silcuty 21' go to

http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/history/index.html

which does go back to the dark ages, however start around the British Colony bit 1925 -1960 and read on.

Another way to understand the problem since 1960 would be to read the book 'Death of a Friendship' written by a real person, a Nurse. Forget the Genocide Files, although it covers the problem it is hard going.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 08:58

re 42 Groucho:



>>Mark, you have problem with mainland Turks.... get over it. Population movement has been a feature of European and Middle Eastern history since records began. >>



Ethnic cleansing is something else... I have no problem with mainland Turks - I often holiday there - I DO have a problem with ethnic cleansing .. by ANYONE..



>>You appear to betray a need to demonise the mainland Turk as though they are some sub-species that ought not be tolerated in Cyprus. <<



No.. you are totally wide of the mark.. and you KNOW it .. I'm quoting FACTS.. TCs continued to LEAVE - examples of returnees are exceptions - it is / wasn't the norm..



>>Well if Turkey ever gets into the EU they will have every right to flood the south too...<<



Fine with me - [ but you KNEW that, too ] - THAT would be legal. I hope you'd join with me in accepting that should mean GC could return to their homes...



Realistically, we both know that there will be some derogations to 'freedom of m

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:06

re 51



>>My understanding is that a study of DNA by Minnesota University revealed that there is no discernable connection between the Greeks and the "Greek" Cypriots. <<



It isn't mine ! Take a flight to Athens.. having lived amongst GCs - you'll see blue eyed, fair-haired Greeks. not too many GCs fit that description - I think you'd find GCs have am mixture of levant / and Italian as well as 'Greek'



>>The connection is the common language. Rather like Jamaicans and English speak English.<<



There is ( or should I now say WAS) a VERY strong cultural / religious connection - not blighted / diluted by hundreds of years of various occupation regimes... THAT is unusual.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:09

re 35 CYman3



>>The facts are that turkey didn't invade Cyprus initially in 1974 they came as a rescue team to save the Turkish Cypriots from being wiped out because Greece invaded the Island to overthrow the Greek Cypriot government then to destroy the Turkish Cypriots.<<



Hmm.. those 'facts' are supported by UN resolutions that asked for both Greek and TR soldiers to get the hell off the island ...



Both GR and TR mandated the UN to be peace-keepers...

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:23

MM. Not for the only time the UN was wrong.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:29

Gosh isn't WIKI wonderfull!!!!!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 09:32

I think you'd find GCs have am mixture of levant / and Italian as well as 'Greek' - and TURKISH.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 10:49

RE msg 54, TRNCvictim: (...) all nationalities that live in Cyprus live try living together peacefully, the past is past! (...)

=> Nice thought, but completely impractical not to say naive. If you don't know and understand the past, you can't shape the future. This is not sad, it's just true.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 10:56

DutchCrusader,



I am more than likely naive, I do know of it's past, but at some point the future must become more important!



We should never forget history, but continue trying to make the present and the future a better place to live for every nationality!



As John Lennon said "Give Peace a Chance"

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 12:16

msg 62.

Only too true Hans.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 12:37

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.



Those who allowed themselves to be fooled into thinking their leadership both religious and political had their best interests at heart have only themselves to blame for being so naive...



Mark,



Your reliance on the rule of law and the right to land is as admirable as it is also naive. History, time and time again demonstrates that those who risk what they have in an effort to gain what is rightfully someone else's stands to lose it when war breaks out... you pick a fight - you lose - then you've lost... history tells us you can't go back and ask if we can all go back to where before it all started because you've burned all your bridges.



There is no way on God's earth that these two communities can suddenly be asked to kiss and make up - it's just not realistic... and it would need to be realistic if the property dispute was ever to resolved in the manner you repeatedly suggest... restitution is no option. The End.

safestep


Joined: 18/09/2010
Posts: 41

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 13:07

Msg 54 If a dozen people on this forum can't agree on not just this topic but literally 100's of other topics which can get really nasty and personal what chance is there of agreement between the GC and TC

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 13:14

re 59 Troodo



>>MM. Not for the only time the UN was wrong.<<



I think you forget that the UN has votes... the votes come from members... some might be 'wrong' as they have vested interests, .. but what about the majority who didn't and *still* asked non Cypriot and non UN mandated troops to leave ? !



martinD41 re 60



*Who* is quoting Wiki ?!



re 65 Groucho:



>>There is no way on God's earth that these two communities can suddenly be asked to kiss and make up - it's just not realistic... and it would need to be realistic if the property dispute was ever to resolved in the manner you repeatedly suggest... restitution is no option. The End. <<



Dear Grouchi - I've always maintained that an Annan -like compromise was the only way forward.. that combined restitution with a variety of other solutions ..



It also made derogations to conventional HR rights for a generation 19 years...



To 'whom' are you 'preaching' ? ;)

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 14:15

The same people you are only with common sense...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 14:22

..and in English ? ;)

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 14:39

What point are you trying to score now?

silcuty21


Joined: 24/05/2010
Posts: 208

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 15:47

hi all



i think we are missing the point i asked when did it start and who started this and said i do not want to know from 1950's onwards sadly some have missed the point and i think that this is the cyprus problem

everybody argues about the 50's onwards but what started the 50's onwards



i think the british started the cyprus problem from WW1 onwards and because cyprus is in such a prime location with their allies have continued the problem



sylv

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 19:36

Re ; msg 71



I agree with you Silcuty21 - the British did come here because of Cyprus' strategic importance ... and morover the arrival and presence of the British certainly has had an effect on the situation here.



But many of the posters have indeed made these points - JohnW wrote in msg 29 that we arrived in the 19th century for "amongst other a base this end of the Suez Canal". And in msg 37, Mmmm wrote "The situation today is the result of a mess created by third party nations (Britain the main culprit?) with varying aims as to what they wanted from Cyprus - Some even fuelled the ethnic tensions of the residents of the island ... to ensure continued access to the 'aircraft carrier in the eastern Med' "



But yes, most of the discussion on this thread has indeed been on post-1950 events, but as you can appreciate, this is the period that TCs in particular quite rightly feel more emotional about.

Crumpy



Joined: 05/06/2010
Posts: 419

Message Posted:
20/09/2010 19:37

Re ; msg 54



TRNCVictim wrote " 'Who started the Cyprus Problem and When? ' is history - Concentrate on the future ! "



To many it may seem futile to discuss the past, but when as a rather cheeky 14-year I asked my History teacher as to the purpose of studying his subject, he replied that the best way of comprehending and possibly resolving the problems of the present and future is to discuss the problems and conflicts of the past.



Ironically, I opted not to study History, so that I could do two languages at 'O' level It was only while at university that I realised my old History teacher was right ... and I started to take a real interest in modern History.

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
24/09/2010 18:09

message 27



Thought it was Vienna

HildySmith


Joined: 02/07/2009
Posts: 1708

Message Posted:
24/09/2010 18:24

READ



1 - TRAPPED BEHIND THE GREEN LINE - 'Voices of Blood- The story behind the documentary Voices of Blood' by a GREEK CYPRIOT Tony Angastiniotis - ISBN 975-98959-9-4.

Being a Greek Cypriot and an ex-nationalist himself, Tony tries to bring to light some hidden truths that saved his soul from extreme nationalism. As Tony has repeated often: 'Reconciliation is a painful process and there can be no shortcuts on the road to peace for any side.

THIS tells you how the Greek Cypriots have been indoctrinated in their churches, schools, life etc and it is written by a Turkish Cypriot who gives is own view on this and follows through travelling to the North and visiting his old home - what he found in his house made my skin creep - READ IT!!!!!!!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/09/2010 18:55

re 70 Groucho- I can't 'score a point' - I was hoping you could 'translate' ... ! Please note the winky smiley- reread msg 68 and 'help me' !!!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
24/09/2010 20:56

Mark you asked



"To 'whom' are you 'preaching' ? ;)"



I said "The same people you are only with common sense..."



What do you need translating?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/09/2010 22:40

re 77 Groucho



I have had to reread it several times and ( sorry) finally I got it - inserting the punctuation that made it make sense... ;)



I believe you meant "The same people you are - only with common sense..."



IF that was the meaning would you like to explain how common sense should mean 'acceptance' of a wrong ?

khutch


Joined: 08/02/2010
Posts: 121

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 08:19

For those that wanted to know this island was ceded by the Ottoman empire in 1878 to the British government and the agreements were signed apparently in the arts museum in Kyrenia by Disraeli the then British PM.

Also there were according to Sir Ronald Storr riots in 1931 by the Greek cypriots against the british rule wanting enosis. http://www.britains-smallwars.com/cyprus/Davidcarter/31rebellion/31rebellion.html

I thoroughly believe the Turk- Greek hatred is so deeply historically rooted that it can never be eradicated only maybe to live together under an uneasy peace.The greek church will never forgive the Turks for the sack of Constantinople and because most wars are religion based the Orthodox Greek church will keep the hatred brewing for centuries ad infinitum. I guess historically you could go as far back to the wooden horse of Troy and as was stated then Beware of Greeks bearing gifts.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 08:25

Common sense implies a realistically achievable goal...



Realistically even though, in your terms, it means accepting that a 'wrong' must be endured and allowed to stand... large scale compensation and restitution in kind rather than full restitution will be the only workable way forward... The alternative, large scale movement and re-integration of Cypriot communities is not workable because the passage of time augers against the success of such a lofty goal.



Therefore those people now occupying property built on land not formerly the residence of a Greek Cypriot have little to fear from a solution based on common sense.



Common sense should tell you this... it may not though, I'm not holding my breath

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 08:27

Some TCs' have an idealised view of Cyprus from there youth in much the same way as I have about life as a child in the UK but times move on and I think we all have to accept that change for better or worse effects change to places whether we like it or not.



Would Cyprus have been different if the Turks had not intervened?... for sure. Would it have been better? I doubt it, but in life there is no control experiment... life can't exist in a bubble and turning the clocks back is not nor ever has been an option.



The changes to the TC culture would more than likely have occurred without the military and demographic changes over the last 36 years like all things - shit happens. You can't stop the clocks. If non of the inter-communal violence had occurred then things would be different but the Cypriot culture would still be eroded just as the culture of the UK has change just because change happens.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 08:28

'their youth' oops

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
25/09/2010 19:25

msge 80



good post

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
26/09/2010 16:14

I think if you spend any time in the south then you would see the communities integrating very well.

You only have to go into Nicosia and see people shopping or working to see that.

More and more TC's are getting Roc passports for travel, using the hospitals and even collecting benefits in the south.

They will re intergrate but in their own time. The hard things are with the economy here, the more they will travel south. With prices cheaper and wages higher its not rocket science.