Are we right to support Georgia? And face the consequences!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
19/08/2008 20:44

Hi All,



It seems to me that we might just have it wrong, hanging our cap on the Georgia hatstand,



Were the Georgians genuinely ethnic cleansing South Essetis? Are the Russians right?



Are we not pushing Russia too far, in respect of putting missiles on their borders?



Do we really need Georgia and Ukrain in Nato with all that that entails?



Is the real gameplan the mineral wealth around the Caspian Basin?



Zibnew Brezinsky wrote 25 years ago" The Grand Chessboard." As advisor to American Presidents, were his words disregarded?



Why have The Americans built the largest Embassy in the world in Bhagbad on the banks of the Tigris. Upkeep to be £1,000,000,000 per annum?( Why try to keep it secret?)



Could Zacharia Sitchen be right all along? Annukai?



All of a sudden PTPs and Kocans fade into insignificance!



I open the debate! (no black pudding, or Donkey remarks!)



There is too much flippancy and STUPID humour on this site. Lets face reality!!



wyn

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/08/2008 20:51

Wynn,

Wasnt it The Georgians that cast the firet stone (so to speak)



Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
19/08/2008 21:04

Hi Paul,



I am really sorry all the distress that was caused to you. David...How could you?



I think you miss the point! There is too much flippancy on this site!



Personally I was attracted to the lass that liked black pudding and the idea of lusty women!



but.....if people prefer serious debate...mate!.......bring it on!





wynge

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/08/2008 21:50

Wynn (just to annoy)

Back on topic please my black country friend.Dont want you having to suffer a david moment.As i see it the georgians fired the first shot killing around 2,00 innocent people.Although it took the b.b.c. almost six days to admit this.No one has actually mentioned the oil that exists in the area though have they.Black oil texas tea,

Regards,

Paul.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
19/08/2008 22:26

hi wyn

its ironic that you can go around bullying someone much smaller than youself and then comes along their big cousin gives them a good slap and tells them

if they do it again they will get slapped even harder who ever they bring ,someone has already posted that its not unlike the turkey / cyprus

situation.

how many wars can america fight ,i suggest no more ,so why flex your muscles

and ask everyone else to take over ,the russians have already said they will nuke poland ,why becouse of america . we are living in dangerous times wyn.

musin

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
19/08/2008 23:25

I agree with musin:



the times are indeed dangerous

and there is a mega-row brewing about crimea and ukraine



america is being very provocative over missile defence

in poland and czech rep. but the kremlin chooses to big this up



if iran or north korea did try to slip one through

the new abm system might zap it but I wouldn't place any bets

besides this system has not been demonstrated to work yet

russia has scores of topol-md ballistic missiles on tracked launchers

currently being upgraded with steerable multiple warheads

and sophisticated decoy systems to penetrate anything



it is the two superpowers upping the stakes

and europe is split between old europe. ie france and germany

who feel exposed and do not want to antagonise russia

and the hawks in america trailed by britain

with the new europe states in the east desparate for protection



of course there are many parallels with the cyprus dispute

russia has done a "turkey"

except that russia created the separitist problem

and turkey didn't



the greek cypriots did!



andre

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 02:13

Maybe they could call in that wonderful and effective impartial umpire the UN.



Did you see on the BBC yesterday South Korea has basically admitted killing at least 100,000 suspected socialist and communist sympathisers in cold blood when the North was advancing and is seeing up some sort of body to investigate the extent of these killings . American and UN soldiers witnessed and some cases photographed mass executions and did nothing covering it up later up till now. The South seem to admit it actually murdered more civillians than the North did in the war in a major reversal.



Given Korea was seen to be the UN at its most effective you would hate to see them at its least effective.





Aussie

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 08:27

Aussie,



No I did not see that report, but are you surprised? The UN is not what we are lead to believe

and it is reknowned for turning the other way when it suits their purposes.



Good PR though!



wyn

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 10:01

Right on Andre.

I think the Georgian President has taken lessons in propaganda from the GC’s. This idiot could have started world war three. The international community are trying to change history five minutes after the event. What chance do the TC’s have against this type of blatant hypocrisy?

Perhaps you are beginning to understand why I asked if any one could see a parallel to the situation here in the TRNC.



Troodo

Happy to live in the safe area.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 10:43

Once again we'll side with the yanks. I agree with Musin - these are dangerous times.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 12:01

Hi All,



It has just been announced on Sky News, that it is believed that South Ossetia is to be

declared an Independant State by Russia, protected and recognised by Russia.



The parallel with The TRNC is there. The Russians go in to protect their citizens from The

Georgians who they accuse of ethnic cleansing, They force out the Georgian military and

then set it up as an independant state which they undertake to protect militarily.



How will the West (America and EU react?) Will they recognise South Ossettia as an independant state or insist that it is part of Georgia a Soverreign State and insist that

Russia withdraw?



Will Russia recognise The TRNC in order to curry favour with Turkey and try to draw them away from Western influence.



This is certainly very troubling move by The Russians.



wyn

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 12:24

will trnc rreognise South Ossetia ??



Shoud they ??

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 13:25

If it brings more tourists over then I say recognise them ;)

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 13:27

I think for NATO the long term question is if they want to admit Georgia are they prepared to go to war with Russia which this incident proves can happen very easily.



If not they risk doing what France and Britain did between the wars signing alliances they didn't necessarily honour eg Chzechkoslovakia.



The issue of South Ossetia is compex as in many ex Soviet states large Russian speaking populations were left behind and there is often issues or conflicts with the majority population of these "new"states such as the Baltic states Georgia etc. I read South Ossetia was a seperate soviet state initially but Joseph Stalin (an ethnic Georgian) later forced its incorporation into the Soviet state of Georgia.



Like all these things the issue of whose territory it is depends on how far back you go and when you choose to stop the clock on this. Much of it seems set from the worst times of communist Soviet Union and in some cases the agreements they reached with Nazi Germany on borders etc before operation Barbarossa.



Aussie

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 14:25

Russia cannot recognize TRNC because of Chechnia. Its double standards everywhere.

ismet

aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 14:40

NATO, the US and the rest of the world have to take a stance against these Russia oppresors otherwise any state or county that wants to be a seperate state from its centuries year old motherland will ask russia for passports and military to shiled to protect them from their original and demorcratically voted for government.



The next thing to happen will be the county of Kent wanting indepence from the UK, France issueing passports to the Kent population, France controlling Kent with a so called French peace force, and then just as the London olympics starts they will invade south London and the UK governments will take the blame for retaliating.



A very big middle finger to Putin and his henchmen.

cruggs


Joined: 06/04/2008
Posts: 498

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 15:57

hi aslan, i think that what we want in kent is independence,from the meddling

eurocrats in brussels,and to get rid of this shambolic, scots goverment.

( home rule for albion)

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 20:13

Hang on a minute it wasnt it georgia that blitzkrieged 2,000 innocent people in the first place,

Paul.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 20:53

Hi Paul,



That is as I understand it but Georgia is a Soverign State, and Russia invaded it!



What is clear to me is there is a gameplan being played out in that area, between the Superpowers, and what is behind it all, and the logical consequences of the actions being taken.



I sought boardmembers opinions because I believe oil in The Caspian Basin is what is behind it all and a BP (partially owned pipeline) brings out through TURKEY 1,000,000 barrels per day!



Maybe Turkey will feel that they have a more useful role for 40,000 troops than cooling their heels in the TRNC.



wyn

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/08/2008 21:02

Cruggs: "...get rid of this shambolic, scots goverment..."



Are you talking about the Scottish Government - which operates about 450 miles away from you - or the Scots you need to run the UK Government?

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
21/08/2008 01:05

Nice one Pike

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/08/2008 02:36

erm...



what does wyn mean by support?



there has been a lot of "talk" from nato and the americans



while the russians are either genuinly irritated by these verbals



or at least are pretending to be...



oh well I suppose it will be possible to resupply and rebuild



when and if the main road from east to west georgia is re-opened



couple of other points:



the original georgian attack only resulted in a few dozen deaths



according to most independent journalsts...



sakashvili's idea in attacking south ossetia looks to us



to have been completely bonkers



and I'm sad to have to make this remark



but is reminiscent of samson's shambolic coup in 1974



though georgia has suffered mysterious assasinations



and numerous other provocations



although what he expected the west could do



to bail him out I cannot imagine



andre

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
21/08/2008 21:46

Andre,

Although i usually respect your opinions i have to disagree with you when you say,"the original georgian attack only resulted in a few dozen deaths".My information from the b.b.c.,who incidentally denied the georgian attack for the first few days puts the figure closer to two thousand and also includes u.n. members.



Wyn,

You are correct about the oil my friend,

Paul.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
21/08/2008 21:54

paul



the real figure is close to double that included in that are un members .



andre



they are no angels



musin

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
21/08/2008 23:08

Musin,

At last someone who agrees.Russia always seem to get a bad press there is a certain stigma that follows them.People have short memories.If it wasnt for the Russians in the second world war.But anyway thats another story,

Regards,

Paul.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
22/08/2008 11:52

War - heurgh. What is it good for?

aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
22/08/2008 13:13

All BBC lovers please find below the response from the BBC after a complaint by yours truly at the misinformation provide during the start and subsequent days of the Russian invasion of the Georgian region of South Ossetia.



They (the BBC) managed to screen the wrong map of the region, did not have the facts regarding how the conflict started, I agree that the news was out of the blue and the beeb had little time to get facts together, but nevertheless the information they provide is taken as fact by most readers and listeners.



Dear Mr Emine,



Thank you for your email and for your interest in our channel. We apologise for any errors on our maps, captions or any other text which appears on screen. We do always try and produce error free programmes, but the occasional human error in a live newsroom environment is perhaps unavoidable. Thankfully, we believe them to be very rare on BBC World News, and we trust you'll understand that these are genuine mistakes. Please be assured that your comments will, nevertheless, be passed on to the News team, for its attention. Thank you for taking the time to write to us. Kindest regards,BBC World News

Rogerdodger


Joined: 24/04/2008
Posts: 271

Message Posted:
22/08/2008 15:15

why not leave politics to the politicions, they can screw it up enough for all of us with out our help.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
22/08/2008 15:20

Pikey,

Absoluteley nothing message 26 (Edwin Starr.)

blackpoolrock


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 22:01

In a short word - no! Its nothing whatsoever to do with us and could lead to us being regarded as an enemy with one of the worl'ds two super-powers who are on the brink of a big increase in wealth, production and political influence.



We should declare independence from being chained to the USA all the time.

The EU should support the European agenda first, not the US dominated world one.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 22:06

Interesting view. I will think on! Its NATO that worries me, and that is dominated by the Americans!



wyn

andysue


Joined: 12/11/2007
Posts: 891

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 23:47

it seems to me NATO and the allied powers see this as the last oppertunity to do russia big harm and to weaken her so she may never pose a threat again. the hawks in NATO and US believe russia stands no chance if it results in a military conflict with the west , russian military still years behind NATO according to a artical i read today. but if it kicks off were does cyprus stand? it aint that far off is it? north and south cyprus both alligned with NATO/US so would cyprus be a target? these are very worrying times regards andrew

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
29/08/2008 00:50

What worries me is that Berwick upon Tweed could still be at war with Russia!



That Peace Treaty the town mayor signed in 1966 could be null and void, he didn't have the status to sign international peace treaties!



Who hires these people? Russian troops could be landing now, mind you, its Thursday afternoon, the place is probably shut.



http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/berwick/berwickupontweed/index.html



Lem