Silent generators

philnles


Joined: 11/08/2008
Posts: 413

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 16:04

Can anyone please help - we are considering running our 2 bedroomed house (small) from a silent generator and know nothing about them. Is is possible to run a small house all of the time and any ideas on costs of running and buying.



Many thanks



Phil and Lesley

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 16:39

Any experts out there?



I would be interested for a 4 bedroom villa!



wyn

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 19:16

I have been trying to research similar.



So far all my info is UK based, so I don't know the situation in NC regarding import, taxes etc.



Small(ish) silent generators are available from such as Honda which are very reliable, but probably not very cost effective with prices around £3k to £6k for outputs from 6KW to 10KW, so you may be best off still cooking on gas.

They are not designed for 24/7 running, mostly for a max of 10hrs/day on U/L or diesel.



For full independance 24/7 you will be looking at a 'Micro Generating Plant'.

In the UK these will be £20-£40k+, but one unit will provide Electricity and hot water for 10-20 (closely) detatched properties. They will run from U/L, Diesel or Gas. (Are LPG tanks and tanker delivery available in NC?)



They are most efficient as 'first fit' during construction, but can be 'retro-fitted' to existing properties, but with obvious additional costs for the cabling and plumbing to all properties.



Currently in the UK these can show a 40% saving for electricity and hot water costs.



If the costs for an installation in NC were, say, £60k fitted to supply 15 properties, that would mean roughly £4k per house, plus running costs.

Maintenance would be minimal. After capital repayment, running costs might be around £1 to 2k/property/year.



The units are about the size of a Mini and very quiet.





More research needed!





Elko around?

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 19:23

This seems a pretty sound idea finacially, but you would probably have to get some kind of government authorisation as it could be classified as the selling of electricity which I would have thought illegal hear in the TRNC.

Michael

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 20:18

ROBnJO,



If there is any interest from your posting from Greatstone Park Esentepe. put me down.



Sounds to be like a bloody good idea, as things currently stand.



Very well done. Really good posting.



wyn



(I can be contacted on wynyardman@btinternet.com.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 21:38

check out the generator prices on ebay. they are a lot cheaper.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 22:21

Small generators of say 3-6kva are really just standby sets for mains failure and are not suitable for constant use as they "glaze up" and need a lot of maintenance and with the price of petrol would be not really cost effective, diesel is cheaper to run on but sets cost a chunk more to buy.

You also have to remember that they dont last forever and only have a life of so many hours running so if you buy a good set say a Honda EM65i (6.5kva super silent) the cost of it in the UK is about £2k but used constantly every day I would estimate it would probably last 3/4 years then be ready for the bin and using about 2 gal petrol a day you can work out the cost per year ?

Generally speaking people use these type of sets for emergency rather than a cost saving item .

If you buy into a generating plant to share amongst an estate the cost would frighten you silly then the cost of fuel to run it and the cost of maintainance would in my opinion be uneconomical.



Wind power turbines are by far the cheapest but sadly little wind in NC ?



Try this link http://www.honda.co.uk/power/generators/ I have a vested interest in this site but it has some good info and tips.



Hope this helps,

ttoli


Joined: 24/03/2007
Posts: 1172

Message Posted:
26/08/2008 23:09

When I first moved over and had no mains electric, I went against advice and bought a cheap Chinese Kipor(broke down countless times- Not designed for continuos use), so upgraded to a Briggs and Stratton, chalk and cheese.

ripoffrock


Joined: 05/08/2008
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 00:48

Does anybody have and use Invertor type generators?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 00:50

Small generators are meant for emergency use only and not for continuous use. Even much bigger generating units suitable for estates, you will have serious maintenance and spare parts problems. If the generator is located in the same country as the manufacturer servicing may be good but not for TRNC. If you have a serious breakdown it may take weeks and even months to get it working again, so as far as I am concerned it is not a feasible preposition. The cost is another factor and maintenance may cost as much as the fuel, so I don't think it would be economical anyway.

ismet

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 11:54

Hi Turtle,



Thanks for your posting. Very interesting,



We are at Esentepe (means Windy Hill) What would be the prospect for wind turbine



generation over there?



wyn

cands


Joined: 11/07/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 12:23

We have Briggs & Stratton...fantastic

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 12:55

Information on invertor systems (which basically charge batteries ) from Ron Davis at ron@rondavismarine.co.uk

jackeen


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 222

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 13:08

Good morning Wyn, I have just 'googled' wind turbine in northern cyprus you might like to check out some of the sites rec.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 13:46

wyn



wind turbines have one of the lowest cost/return factors of any 'alternative' supply, do not have a long life expectancy and require storage (battery) facilities to be used as stand alone sources, resulting in increased costs and renewal/maintenance.

They are only suitable for providing direct usable power over limited periods and returning excess to a 'national grid' system for credit.

Currently this rules them out in NC.







rob

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 13:57

Small generators such as Honda or Briggs & Stratton are ideal as back up emergency power, but are not designed for continuous use. They are also comparatively expensive to run and as mentioned have a fairly short lifespan.

philnles


Joined: 11/08/2008
Posts: 413

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 14:26

Thanks for all who replied. Looks like we'll have to think again!

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 14:49

Rob,



I am fascinated by your postings on micro generation plants, given the costs and unreliability

of electricity supplies in the TRNC. We have one of 19 detached 4 bed villas in a cul-de-sac.,

in Esentepe. (at this point in time I do not know if my neighbours would be interested) Clearly you have considerable knowledge of this type of product, and I would be very interested in exploring the possibilities.I am sure some property developers would express an interest in offering this type of facility on their developments.



Do you know of any Company that would be prepared to do a feasibility study sufficient to

provide an overall cost , and estimated running costs? Would that type of plant be suitable

for detached villas as opposed to apartments? From information I am gleaning from this

board I feel that we can anticipate electricity costs of £3500 to £4000 per annum per villa.



Would maintainance be an issue in TRNC?



What would the alternative be in terms of costs for say a 12KVA (fully silenced) generator to supply a single villa.



I hope you dont mind me asking, but presumably you have both the knowledge and interest

to persue any options which may be available.



I have posted this on the board, which is a public forum because I believe many would be interested to learn if there are viable options to our energy requirements.



wyn

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 14:51

Wyn

Robnjo in msg 15 seems to have summed wind turbines up well.

The bottom line is mains power is as good as it gets really, yes its getting more expensive but no other good alternative.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 15:00

The problem with a big 12kva set is that for long periods the gennie would be delivering at best 2-3 kva when you are just watching TV or just a few lights on or maybe a fridge.

When these big sets are running on less than 1/2 load the cylinders and pistons get glazed and start to coke up and fail so they like to be worked quite hard and most of the time they are just ticking over.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 15:00

Ismet



Thanks for your input!



As always you are one of the most informed, respected and measured of posters on any NC BB I have found.



Perhaps we should nickname you Gandalf!



Err,... but,....



Spare parts,.. maintenance in NC?



Many drive Mercs, Toyotas, Fords etc,.. or have Bosch, Samsung white goods, air cons, Honda or B & S gennies etc and have no problem with servicing, spares.



Some of these new generation CHP (combined heat & power) systems are widely available and installed throughout the EU (including ROC) and are extremely reliable.



For example the Baxi German built CHP uses a Deutz 3ltr 3 cylinder Diesel running at 1500prm, almost tickover, but provides power & heat for up to 30 residential units. That Diesel will outlive me! They have already installed over 10,000 of these units in the EU.

I forgot to mention earlier that these units, via their heating supply, could also be used to, via indirect function, provide air con!



Has anyone wondered why some larger Hotels in NC seem to keep the lights on and the food cooking during power breaks?



They are already using this technology.



Any positive talks that remove trade embargo's on NC will open a whole new world for incoming technology,.... maybe even decent broadband!



rob

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 15:08

Turtle,



When this was discussed previously did you read the links that Rob provided on micro

generating plants? Really interesting reading, but I am not certain if they are suitable for

detatched villas, and whether they would be allowed in the TRNC.



Fascinating subject though!



wyn

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 15:14

If you have a BIG gennie, any surplus mains you don't use should go into a BIG battery bank. When the gennie is switched off, the batteries would discharge through a BIG inverter. In the winter, the gennie cooling water could be used to make hot water. If you use inverter a/c units you could do a bit of cooling as well. Top that up with some PV panels and you have an alternative to KibTek. However, this is will never be competitive with KibTek, only really for those not/never going to be on the mains.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 16:23

Vaughan



Most of these CHP units installed in the EU have shown proven reductions of between 20 and 50% against directly avaliable 'mains' supplies with no cost /return requirement to be connected to any local or national grid system.





Never EVER consider any alternative power supply that requires BIG batteries for storage!



For low voltage systems such as 12v lighting powered by solar panels, LI (Lithium Ion) batteries are an option, but seem to being overtaken by LIS (Lithium Sulphur) batteries, which will be the next generation of batteries for all Electric vehicles.



Anything that relies on large old fashioned Lead Acid batteries is now dead in the water!



Unless you've got an old Morris Minor!



rob

dunns


Joined: 06/05/2008
Posts: 29

Message Posted:
27/08/2008 21:41

Philnles

I am doing a lot of research for a frind of mine to run his new build 6 bedroom villa on solar panels. Due to the nature of the TRNCs sunny days it could possibly be the way to go providing the government dont start slapping masive taxes on the products when they are imported.

Technoligy is getting better by the day and the latest solar panels are getting smaller and more effiecient Lithium Sulphur batteries are maintainance free and most importantly prices are coming down.

He has been quoted £8500 to get electricity to his villa and there are then the ongoing running costs to consider from what i hear the average monthly bills are running at 400ytl (£183) for a 3 bed villa

If i get my figures in the right place he should break even in about 4 years and not get any nasty shocks when Kibtec decide to increase the prices by another 20%

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 10:37

Hi Rob,



Commercial CHP units in the UK are viable but they need to be sized so that ALL the waste heat generated is used and not dumped to atmosphere. They are also most suitable where loads are stable and continuous and a hospital is a good example. The occupancy of a hospital is usually very steady and it is the same day and night, weekdays and weekends.

In winter waste heat from a CHP is used for LTHW and DHWS and in summer this waste heat is processed through an absorbtion chiller to provide chilled water for air conditioning. Surplus electricity generated is sold to the grid and it is my understanding that all of the above circumstances apply for optimum cost effectiveness. Small CHP units use diesel type engines running on town gas and larger ones use small gas turbines similar to those used to power helicopters.



Quite how a CHP would perform in a domestic scenario compared to the above, I do not know, but I would be really interested in reading up a case study.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 15:33

Vaughan



Early days yet!



bit of reading with links at:



http://www.microchp.nl/internal_combustion_engines.htm







p.s. My next project is all electric vehicles, which I feel would be admirably suited to Cyprus, I can't believe how many of them are already humming around London! ;-)



I obviously need a stimulating business to occupy me when I move to NC!



rob

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 16:09

Hello wyn & dunns,

the prices you are quoting are these in Stirling?



3,500 to 4,000 a year seems to be well ott. even the alleged average 183 per month adds up to 2160 per annum which seems to be quiet a gap and over priced. The villa would have to be lit up like blackpool tower to cost those kinda prices!



Could anyone out there that is paying for electricity give the amounts they are paying so we can compare please? Is the price the same all over NC for the unit of electricity used.



Lights out.



If this is the case then it's candles for us!

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 16:42

Hi ROBnJo,



Interesting link.

Take a look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_combined_heat_and_power

unless you already have.



Until CHP becomes practical here, I still think with the right batteries the generate-store-release method has merit.

philnles


Joined: 11/08/2008
Posts: 413

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 20:41

Hi Dunns,

Thanks for your reply - most informative although i must confess it is all a bit too much for me. Do you know of any web sites we can view for a bit more information please.



Thanks



PhilnLes

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
28/08/2008 20:52

Keep it up Guys. Very interesting. We should get there eventually.



wyn

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
29/08/2008 00:41

Tiggy,



I have taken my figures from some postings on this board. Where people are renting there seems to be little regard for the bills, when guests use the aircon. One poster has a bill for over £700 for one month!



Additionally prices seem to vary around the island.



Based on what I have heard I am budgeting £3000 pa. on our 4 bed villa, with modest use of the aircon.



wyn

philnles


Joined: 11/08/2008
Posts: 413

Message Posted:
08/09/2008 22:17

Hi, sorry to bring this up again but in light of the Cyprus Star article, last Friday, on the Ocean View sight in Karsiyaka where each plot is being asked to pay in excess of 5000 GBP by their developer, which happens to be our developer on a different site, and bearing in mind our property should have been ready for us in April 2008, we feel we could be asked for 5000+ too.



Would a silent generator be a better option in our case.

Thanks

Phil and Lesley

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
08/09/2008 22:48

5 Grand seem a bit of a scam Phil....but does'nt suprise me ?

But if it was me £5k would buy alot of gennies for a few years so may be an option for you.