EU needs Turkey - Gul

EssexOB


Joined: 29/06/2007
Posts: 80

Message Posted:
08/11/2010 21:54

See



http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE6A746720101108

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
08/11/2010 22:06

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/9160990.stm



Cheers Essex,theres more,

Paul.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
08/11/2010 22:06

No they dont



In fact some in EU never want Turkey

millzer


Joined: 12/04/2007
Posts: 978

Message Posted:
08/11/2010 22:07

BBC News 'Hardtalk' interview with President Gul on TV tonight.



You can watch the full interview on Monday 8th November on BBC World News at 1550 and 2030 GMT and in the UK on the BBC News Channel at 2330 BST. It will also be available on BBC World News on Tuesday 9th November at 0430 and 0930 GMT.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
08/11/2010 22:08

France and Germany wouldnt touch Turkey with a bargepole,

Paul.

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
08/11/2010 23:27

cant for the life of me see why turkey wants in to the EU ,they are doing fantastic as they are and are going to be an echonomic super power in the not to distant futre, china isnt in the EU and every world leader is going begging them for more trade , our prime minister is has we speak on his way begging bowl and all !

Wireless


Joined: 10/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 00:46

Great article in the times today where the ex labour foreign secretary jack straw says EU needs turkey more than Turkey needs the EU.



He go's on to say that unless the GC's agree a one state power sharing solution then the possibility of a 2 state solution should be explored.



very encouraging

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 00:52

What a pity old Jack did not say that when he WAS foreign secretary when it may have carried some weight.Typical of a useless hasbeen.I seem to recall old Jack saying the UK will never recognise the TRNC.Clearly he is the same as most politicians - two faced

gooligan


Joined: 30/01/2007
Posts: 1591

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 06:49

Hardtalk is on at the moment on BBC news,no mention of Cyprus yet.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 07:27

"Great article in the times today where the ex labour foreign secretary jack straw says EU needs turkey more than Turkey needs the EU. "



Well that should set alarm bells ringing in Ankara.... The EU needs some of Turkey's economic strength and that will only serve to weaken Turkey.... Turkey needs EU manufacturing regulations like it needs another hole in its head.



The only benefit to come out of EU membership will be human rights for its people... and they could have those without the cost of membership. The changes are already happening.



What they don't need is the EU showing them how to be profligate with other people's money.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 07:29

If you look up The EU in the Devil's Dictionary is says 'European Union - a good idea badly implemented! See also UN, NATO, Commonwealth'



Well it doesn't but it should...

LOvegod


Joined: 22/03/2009
Posts: 161

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 09:53

Turkeys economy roaring ahead (thanks mostly to NOT being EU regulated) Europes birthrate falling hence our political elite bringing in as many immigrants as possible in the hope that their taxes will support Europes ailing ponzi scheme pensions. Merkel recently went on TV telling the german people that they must get used to seeing more mosques being built around the country. With the tories signing a new defence deal with France and more rigourous enforcement of the Lisbon treaty,all our European masters need is Turkey in and subdued by the EU providing increased consumption to help boost EU GDP and a stong military front line for their expansionist policies. Heil Barroso

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 10:51

One of the reasons TR's economy IS surging ahead is that it has lower labour costs than most EU nations and deals that allow it to trade with the EU - without punitive tariffs



The relationship is symbiotic - not a one-way street

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 13:01

message 13



Quite right,

Turkey exports more to the EU than it imports by a long way,so as far as trade is concerned Turkey needs the EU more than the other.what exactly the benifits on either side of Turkey joining,apart from immigration ,I cant see much. Turkey will also lose the benifits of a cheap labour market on joining.



Turkey will not get into the EU, the people of Europe do not want it ,the EU is already too big. There will be enough trouble with the people over cutbacks without adding problems with Turkeys application.

For those that mock the EU and say Turkey would better off on its own ,I say that you are preaching to the converted, as 70% of the EU population agree

I am not Turkish so am looking at it from a EU citizens point of view.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 14:09

re 14



As someone who WANTS TR in the EU... for the benefit it should bring - viz a vis a lasting peace in the Eastern Med ( I strongly believe that for all it's faults the EU prevents wars between old enemies and promotes understanding) I worry that France, Germany, Netherlands, Austria are so 'anti'... remembering how 'anti' France was at the UK entry to the EEC, and many Austrians being anti Hungarians / Slovenians, etc.,



Stating that the EU is a 'Christian club' is plain b*ll*x !

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 17:26

msge 15



" I strongly believe that for all it's faults the EU prevents wars between old enemies and promotes understanding"



Could you go in to a little more detail as to why you believe the above

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 17:52

Dear ILC



1/ How many times had France and Germany warred in the last 100 years before the EEC?



2/ Did the UK / Ireland have a dispute over territory ?



3/ Did Germany and the Czech republic / Poland have disputes over territory ?



4/ Do / did Slovenia and member to be Croatia have a territorial dispute



5/ Could UK Builders go to Germany in the 70's to find work?



6/ Could Polish workers do the same in the UK 30 years later?



7/ Look at the range of products we have available to eat now in EU supermarkets



8/ Is it easy to set up biz and move your family to another EU nation ?



9/ Are your EU driving licences / qualifications recognised?



10/ Can you bring non- EU family members with you with the minimum of fuss?



11/ Can a 'northie' cross from North to South and shop @ Lidl



12 / Can a TC shop and work in the south and live in the 'north' - or the 'south'?





Need I go on ?



What is the cost of one life saved ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:40

Msge 17





IMO the EU is not the cause of European peace, it may simply be an effect that is overrated in it’s ability to facilitate harmony. It’s trying to take the glory for something it has not created.



Peace in Europe has come from Europeans becoming more tolerant. Tolerance isn’t limited to Europeans. The world has become more magnanimous, hence there has been a steady decrease in wars over the last 20 years or so. So as well as Europeans, think Chinese, Japanese, Australians, Canadians, Brazilians and Argentineans etc who are not members of the EU and have lived in relative peace over the last 25 years. So there is something else going on, it’s not about the EU.



To take up your point about France and Germany not warring, you may want to look at the Marshall plan. In any case, France and England were constantly warring. Our last major war took place in 1815. This is over 100 years before the EU was established. Again there has to be something else going on.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:41

cont msge 18



Many Europeans have moved from an ideological limbic driven mindset (although it still exists in many forms and in large numbers) to an attitude where we seek to fulfill our potential and material success is the goal . It’s a more scientific expression, probably facilitated by a rejection of religion and a more scientific and rational education. It may very well be that in Europe, the cold war with the exposure to nuclear weapons, which made the prospect of war unpalatable, created a space for the richness and fuller expression of this scientific mindset to take place. Technology opened the space so that women could be free from the constraints of household work and to enter the workplace. (feminisation of the workplace and political systems has probably helped to facilitate more peaceful relations).

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:42

cont msge 19



The expression of ones potential has made it possible for Europeans to move from protectionist to open trade systems. As a consequence, Europeans enjoy a much higher standard of living and are too busy striving for career success and enjoying the comfort of their riches to want to war. Materialism has taken us to where we are now, and the EU could have only been erected from these very strong foundations. So the EU is the effect cause not the cause. Yes the EU has helped European trade but this would have happened anyway and you don’t need a large system to facilitate this. So it’s the economy stupid and trading has facilitated trust between nations. Entrepreneurs and scientists not politicians have enriched our world. But it’s still not the full story.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:43

cont msge 20



The scientific mindset still has the potential for destruction, (as it is mostly left brain and devoid of the connecting power of the right brain) however it has made way for a growing number of egalitarians who have encouraged peaceful agreements, rather than the use of force. Again this has been an emergent process, which has facilitated a more expansive use of our brain potential. This has enabled more transparency and openness (which the EU does not show in any shape or form) which means that people are being held accountable for their actions (apart from Eurocrats) and it is our global media systems, based on technology which have enabled transparency to facilitate peace. There is no escape from any wrongdoing. Of course, a large military force which you are prepared to use has also helped to work alongside this. (Note the EU does not have a military. There is NATO)

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:43

cont 21





The Egalitarian mindset is now facilitating something which I call ‘cooperative competition’ which again is moving us in to new ways of trading together. It has the potential to raise our standard of living further. This is the mind leading the structural change. It’s an emergent process probably facilitated by mirror neurons which enable us to feel sympathy with others. Again technology and the media have helped to being us close to harrowing pictures and to feel the pain of others. Technology is binding us together as a global unit.



Policies and structure do change mindset (and have done to great effect), although I believe, to attain true peace ones mindset has to be changed first in order to facilitate better policy and structures in the future. There will never be true peace unless humans transcend their egos.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:44

cont 22



In terms of policy the EU has offered nothing new. There are international laws so why have EU law (human rights law has done much more to create peace than any EU initiatives), there are international trading mechanisms and there are global apparatus to move wealth from the rich to the poor etc. Where the EU may be of benefit is in helping EU countries to secure better deals like energy deals etc, but these are defensive not progressive measures. The EU may have been developed, so that EU nations can be strong as a unit, rather being sickly as individual nations. Europe has knowledge and infrastructure but we are ageing fast and we know that the young bucks are gunning for us. The development of the EU may have been a group unconscious process to protect one another, but now we are convincing ourselves that the EU has a higher purpose. I would be more comfortable if the EU declared itself as a sickly tribe binding itself together to be strong. Of course, to be consistent

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:45

cont 23





the rest of my text I acknowledge that there are egalitarians within the EU and there are some who are driven to a higher purpose.



So I leave you with some thoughts and bear in mind humans can quite easily regress, and it may be that our reptilian biological programmes are too strong to be completely switched off. In fact, they may be held back by policy and structures, feeling frustrated at being held back they might explode in to action ready to release a torrent of guts and gore not even imaginable to us right now.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:46

cont 24





1) As the EU grows you may get an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, other countries in the world will form a large block to counter the EU. This could lead to a scary standoff as one group seeks to dominate the other.

2) When countries become too closely bound, without the allowing of individual freedom or expression, then there could be a pull to break away. This could be catastrophic. As empires, like the Ottoman were broken back down in to nation states we saw some serious bloodshed.

3) One of the strongest needs that humans have is the need for inclusion. The EU is excluding virtually all of it’s citizens from participation. This is extremely dangerous and will lead to discontent. Well, we see it now, it is playing out. We know in the UK that the voters feel disconnected from politicians. This is nothing compared to the disconnect most feel towards European politicians. Decisions are too far removed from the populace. There is no local buy in and this wi

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:47

cont 25





There is no local buy in and this will create problems.

4) Most people in Britain see themselves as British first and not European . To identify with Europe and to really buy in to the policies people will need to see themselves as European first. This is a big project to change mindset. People will resist this (unless you brainwash them as kids) and you could get kick back.



I have not spoken about cultural differences within the EU nor the different trading strategies and path dependencies each country has but these are worth bearing in mind.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:48

cont 26





We could also talk about structures as a whole. The new emerging structures don’t have any form of central control. Look at Linux and Apache. Nobody is employed by these companies, there is virtually no central control yet these companies are thriving. Centrally governed systems may have had their day (although polarities do rebalance) . Systems are going small, global, unstructured, unplanned and emergent which is how the universe works. The EU is big, planned, controlled and structured which is the opposite. Even centrally controlled companies are decentralizing, again this is the opposite of the EU.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 22:48

cont 27



I am open to a new idea that the universe and all systems within it, that is human and economic systems etc go through cycles of boom and bust, a kind of repurposing. This repurposing process enables better structures (and atoms, cells etc) to be built from the old decayed structures and this process goes onwards and upwards, but I am not yet convinced that the EU is part of this process. It’s too big for it to be ignored, so it may very well be, however I need more proof.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 23:06

ps searching for similarities (and talking) have facilitated peace.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 23:09

Wow, that was a lot of posts and I will revert tomorrow.. before I do, please be sure to checkout how many times Alsace Lorraine went between Germany and France prior to the EEC



You might also check out how the League of Nations failed to prevent a war..



Has the UN ensured freedom of movement across much of Europe - including members of the ex-soviet block ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 02:16

msge 30



I checked out Alsace Lorraine. From what I can make out, the last time it changed hands was in 1945. I don't think you can say with confidence, that their have not been any squabbles over this territory because of the EU. One could just as reasonably argue, that these two countries have matured.



If you look at my text I have not refered to any institutions prior to 1945. If you read my text again you may be able to see why.



Your last statement is about large movements of people moving from one country to another. The question is have large movements of Eastern block citizens played a part in maintaining peace in Europe? I don't know about this. One could certainly argue that it has enriched nations in many ways, but one could also argue that it has raised tensions. France decided it could not tolerate certain eastern block citizens. Germany and France look as though they may not tolerate much more diversity in to it's system, hence partly their attitude to Turkey.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 09:40

phew, what a lpt of thought has gone into these postings!

brains are included in the concept of use it or lose it, I'm sure, well done



how fortunate then, that turkey's denial of eu and common market membership before that,

is so simple that even the most intellectually challenged can understand it:



most germans, french, dutch, austrians...much of the northern eu working class in fact

simply will not accept turkey as a member, notwithstanding alsace-lorraine or the "cyprob"



I think you guys know deep down that my easier analysis of turkey's rejection is right

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:47

rem msg 32 >>I think you guys know deep down that my easier analysis of turkey's rejection is right<<



Nope... and even I tire of repeating my 'upbeat' reasoning to you ;)



re msg 31

>>France decided it could not tolerate certain eastern block citizens.<<

Sure, it deported Romany's en masse - illegally - and they can come right back and sue the ass of France!



Response to influence of UN v EU: UN members HAVE gone to war against each other.. which EU members have?



That is not to criticise the the UN, but rather to point out that the process of accession to the EU is somewhat more taxing...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 13:20

msge 33



I don't think we are going to agree on this one. I can concede that the EU has created some benefits, but it's only part of the story. As I have outlined there is an evolutionary process involved here and there are other factors other than just political policy in creating peace.



Europe has always had the edge over other countries in the world so we are going to be more sophisticated. (for the time being)

Do we need a large beauracratic organisation to direct us? I favour a less political and smaller system, Committed to raising the standard of wealth of other nations.



It's not fair to compare UN nations to European nations. European nations have evolved more quickly than other countries. Europeans evolved from the fertile plan in the middle east and we were able to grow crops which were full of protein. We were the only continent to have domesticated animals (apart from llamas in South America). This gave Europeans the vital edge.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 13:21

Domesticated animals did the workload so we were able to become alchemists and invent steel and gunpowder etc.

Living with animals meant we became immune to most diseases (not malaria).



We conquered the world by infecting many of the nations we came in contact with (Indians, South Americans, South Africans) and we went on to dominate the worlds resources through our military interventions from this vital edge that was granted us by virtue of living in the right place in the world.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 13:25

correction msge 35



We conquered the world by infecting many of the nations we came in contact with (Indians, South Americans, South Africans), and we went on to dominate the worlds resources through our military interventions. We have been extremely lucky, being in the right place at the right time. The landscape has been very kind to Europeans.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 13:31

msge 33



Yes the working class will object, but the people do not matter to European politicians. The leaders will make their own decisions about what is right for Europeans.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 14:07

Dear ILC



all my responses have been in direct response to your disputing my contention - that for all the bad things - and there are many - that the EU is overall a good thing - as *I* believe it has saved lives.. something on which a price can't be put..



Naturally, the fact that no-one has ever been prepared to s5gn off it's accounts is a VERY big worry, and shows why it is correct to worry about total federalisation as no-one seems to be accountable.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 15:33

correction 35



surprised no one picked me up about gunpowder. Not surprised, as most people have probably gone to sleep reading this thread. Just to tidy it up, the Chinese started out with many of the same benefits as the Europeans.



msge 38



We can go round and round in circles here. Your first point was that Germany and France have not warred because of the EU. You just don't know this for sure. Germans as a nation were beaten, weary (like most other european nations) and guilty after the second world war. They lost half their country. They (with the support of the Americans mostly) made a commitment to making sure they did not fight again. Same thing happened to Japan. Western Europes focus became the Soviet block. I just dont think any of those western countries would have gone to war with each other regardless of the EU, but of course we just do not know.



It was a great idea to set up a European trading block. It is a great idea for European nations to

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 15:39

share their wealth with other nations, but you don't need a big political machine to make this happen. We obviously agree on accountability and some other EU issues.