George Bush claims UK lives were saved by 'Waterboarding'

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 15:31

British lives were saved by the use of information obtained from terrorist suspects by 'waterboarding'' according to former US President Bush.

In his memoirs he said the simulated drowning technique helped break plots on Heathrow Airport and Canary Wharf.



Number 10 declined to comment on the claims but said it considered waterboarding to be torture.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 15:33

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11715577



Is torture acceptable?

LaptaMike


Joined: 07/10/2009
Posts: 1679

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 15:43

staying out of this one Bill, I will be hated even more if I give my opinion on water boarding etc. All I will say to people is watch the film "Unthinkable". Samuel H Jackson was a tad over the top in that.

tsmlion


Joined: 17/08/2009
Posts: 39

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 15:53

Waterboarding is not torture.



Plus, if getting someones head wet prevents mass murder at Heathrow I will turn the tap on myself.



You have to fight fire with..........................er................water.

LaptaMike


Joined: 07/10/2009
Posts: 1679

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 16:04

sorry got to say it , beat terrorism with terror. No point locking them in a warm comfortable cell with 3 meals a day and sky tv. Hook hand has it lucky.

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 16:11

I'm just wondering if he said this about the same time he said he saw the first plane fly into the first twin tower live on TV?

They might just have been waterboarding the wrong person you know.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 16:26

Usual crap from the apologists of torture. First of all there is no evidence that this actually is true and there is plenty of evidence to prove widespread torture of innocent civilians by US and UK forces. It is also a proven fact that most people will say anything to stop being tortured. The evidence gathered is useless.



Torture of anybody is wrong. Period.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 16:34

May be 'torture' - that's what it was - 'worked' but..and it is a big BUT... how many recruits come about because we sunk to their level.. detention without trial :(



Without a doubt 'we' tortured in N.Ireland .. did it bring about peace any quicker ?

ballymurphy


Joined: 20/09/2009
Posts: 166

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 16:37

Got to agree with YFred, how do we know George is telling the truth, after all he & Tony did lie about WOMD.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 17:47

So Bush thinks that he and Blair were in the business of protecting lifes and he cites waterboarding to illustrate this. I have always been in the business of protecting their reputations and when their critcics have said that they were not fit to live with pigs I have always argued "oh yes they are".

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 17:57

Human beings should be treated as such



Those who behave like rabid animals should be treated as such

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 18:12

This is how the torture mentality begins. First degrade people to below human level and then its open season. Jews, Vietnamese, Argentinians to name just a few.

Karakum that is crap and you know it. Do you know how many innocent people are tortured everyday. There is only one place that can determine a person's guilt and that is in front of a decent judge with decent representation, and certainly not in a torture chamber.

Let them carry on like that and see this thing blow up in their face.

Have we learned nothing from history. Did torture solve the Northern Irish Problem. Like hell it did. Have you considered the value of talking especially after we stop exploiting these people?

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 20:44

I expect the women, and men, who were tortured as witch suspects long ago, would say anything to stop the agony.

How can torture find the truth? Water-boarding is torture, undoubtably, as it is near drowning.

In any case, many fanatics are prepared to die for what they believe is their cause.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 20:56

This is the same Geoge Bush who has said he saw in Tony Blair echos of Winston Churchill?? This was on TV 2 hours ago and I still haven't stopped laughing, the poor deluded fool. Just as well they are now both out of office and cannot do any more mischief.





The butlers wife

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 21:36

i dont like Tony Blair i certainly dont like George Bush i also hate Bin Laden and and his followers , theres good and bad in all cultures , id bring back hanging for all proven Terrorist .

BillyB


Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 21:43

Sounds like some of you should be on "adult social evenings" thread.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 21:44

Proven being the operative word, and who can say with certainty that someone is guilty, George Bush and Tony Bliar only think they're God.

LaptaMike


Joined: 07/10/2009
Posts: 1679

Message Posted:
09/11/2010 21:59

off topic



Whether you liked them or hated them they were democraticaly voted in. (Before anyone starts it, lets ignore the Florida palava). I Wasn't keen on George W. Bush (intelligence of a tadpole) or Tony Blair, puppy dog to Bush. But they made the correct decision regarding Iraq and Afghanistan in my opinion, even if it was based on dubious intelligence.



Who actually knows, there may be a bunker somewhere with wmd in Iraq that have simply not been found yet.

Lennythelion


Joined: 07/09/2008
Posts: 53

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 10:43

http://jblog.jackcjohnson.com/Videos/muslim-videos/172.aspx

adkdundee


Joined: 01/08/2010
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 10:46

Msg 8 and 12



"Without a doubt we totured in NI"



Based on what evidence?



"Did torture solve the NI problem"



Whats are these comments based on?



If you were in the know I doubt very much if you would be posting on a public forum. It's very easy for you armchair experts to throw out bland phrases without having any clue at all.



I think you would soon change your minds if your family or loved ones lives were at stake. Would you resort to any means to save them?? I know I would without any shred of remorse.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:02

msg15 Hanging



msg msg4 Torture



msg 11 Rabid Animals (descriptive)



It seems "Mankind" has certainly over many hundreds of years become fully civilised............??????????????

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:25

Measy,

Unfortunately hanging these people only serves to satisfy the lust for murder of people like yourself and the rest of the great unwashed Sun, Daily Mail and Hurriyet readers. Turkey was doing exactly that for decades against PKK and instead of solving the problem, the PKK numbers actually grew in numbers from 4 to 30000.

Surely it is more civilized to listen to the grievance of these people and take on board their objections. The US has to stop supporting the Saudi dictatorship and pull all its forces out of the country and finally stop supporting Israel and there is your problem solved.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:28

re 20 adkdundee



>>If you were in the know I doubt very much if you would be posting on a public forum.<<



I am from N.Ireland - I lived there during the troubles.. I am STILL in favour of N.Ireland remaining part of the UK.. for as long as the majority of folk there so desire it.. I was married to a R.Catholic and this took me into environments where I saw BOTH sides of the story..





I believed in UK justice... and came to be 'in the know' when I ( quite by accident) met campaigners for the release of the "Birmingham Six" - whom I had previously regarded as simply having Nationalist sympathies



We've had the "Guildford Four", "Bloody Sunday" - convictions based on coercion and torture... Former RUC members have gone on record:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/video/2010/oct/11/northern-ireland-police-torture



Wouldn't YOU like to know more about what happened to these papers ?



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4117611.stm

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:29

( cont)



So.. did coercion / torture by the UK security forces end the troubles?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:29

( cont)



So.. did coercion / torture by the UK security forces end the troubles?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:36

LaptaMike, you are totally wrong. They knew there was no WOMD because they new exactly what sold him and how much. They took some unintelligence from MIF ignored all the caveats and created a report that suited them.

Open your eyes, the reason for attacking Iraq was to lower the price of oil, which did not work. Taliban was armed and trained by America. Just because less than 20 people attack a country is no reason to attack back with such devastating force killing tens of thousands civilians. There is a difference between the 9/11 attackers and America. 9/11 attackers were very civilized because they attacked a very specific target killing people who worked in the world trade center which is responsible for all the poverty in the world today. America just attacked anyone and everyone in Afghanistan carpet bombing it. You tell me who is civilized.

adkdundee


Joined: 01/08/2010
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 11:56

mmmmmm,



That's a very reasonable answer to my question. Thank you for that.



I also spent a long time (eight years) in NI at various times between 1975-1995 as a member of the British Army in various roles. I don't have any politcal bias in NI or anwhere else for that matter.



How many times have you watched documentaries or heard arguments with 2 completely different versions of events?

Their is gererally 2 sides to every story and a counter argument for every argument. It's human nature to support the side closer to your own beliefs.



"Death on the Rock" is a perfect example of this. 2 completely different reports for the same incident.



Anyway, thanks again for the reasoned response and for the record I believe that the end justifies the means.



Did it stop the troubles in NI? No. I agree.



Do I think it was justified if the information led to saving one life? Yes 100%

Do I think it was justified if it meant the killing or imprisonment of a terrorist? Yes 100%

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 14:46

Hi adkdundee



Thanks for your understanding and reasoned response..



I thought as you do, once .. That is why it is hard to fight terrorism.. do you sink to their level?



The danger is that for everyone you remove from the 'chessboard' how many 'new recruits' will the method you used - if using 'the ends justify the means approach' - will 'enlist' to the 'cause'.



The perfect example is the taking out of the 3 IRA members who might have done harm in Gibraltar.. the UK was censured for that by the ECHR.

adkdundee


Joined: 01/08/2010
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 15:18

Fair enough mmmmmm,



I agree with the problem of potential recruitment and martyrdom. I do feel however that in a hostile/war/conflict situation you have to look at each case on it's own merit. Who makes the call on that is probably another topic for discussion.



I would take the censure from anyone rather than have innocents killed or maimed by the bad guy's from any terrorist org.



I do however see your point and am not of the thinking that indiscriminate brutality is acceptable.



ADK

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 16:01

George Bush claimed lots of things !



By those of you in UK and US saying torture is okay, have you not made it open season on our own soldiers should they fall into the hands of the enemy or to ourselves should we be arrested for some offence ,mistakingly or not,in some south american country.

This atitude that its allright for some to torture,(us) ,but not others, smacks of the aftermath of WW2 where Axis torturers were put on trial but Allied torturers were not.We have moved on from there, with the trials of people in the Hague, showing that anybody can be put on trial ,winners or losers. George Bush has possibly therefore left himself open to arrest outside US.



Message 4,

You and the US are the only ones that think that water boarding is not torture.

As for information gleaned to prevent terrorism.What if I think YOU were a terrorist or criminal, 5 minutes of your feet being burned,you would admit you were . What if I liked torturing you?

DeaconB


Joined: 13/07/2010
Posts: 120

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 16:49

These blokes were lucky when, I was in the army we couldn’t afford to send people Water Boarding, we only had swimming or drowning to choose from.

These yanks must have all the gear, just like Disney.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 18:20

msge 26



"9/11 attackers were very civilized because they attacked a very specific target killing people who worked in the world trade center which is responsible for all the poverty in the world today."



I thought you were making some reasoned comments on this thread until I read this piece. Did you actually mean to say this or did you just get caught in the moment?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 18:26

Compare the innocent people killed in Iraq and Afghanistan which is over a half a million (From the Lancet) since the western invasion to few thousand in 9/11 and you may understand what my message means, in the mean time close your eyes and ears and just brail the crap that comes out of the western media. You will be fine and will sleep a lot better too.

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 18:30

I think you need a one way ticket to Afghanistan YFred, and you can work out your issues.....................one way or another.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 18:47

While I am at it, compare the way those volunteers gave up their lives for their cause and the b****rds who use play station technology and bomb families to kingdom come. I think you'll find you are in need of more psyco treatment than me my friend.

As to Taliban, I let the towel heads fight their own battles, I am more concerned with Cyprus problem particularly being shot at by my GC cousins eoka volunteers in the south. As well as what we are about to face in a few months time which is partition.

basheer



Joined: 22/12/2008
Posts: 949

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 23:25

how would you go about interogating a suspect who would gladly die for his cause to reveal dates and location to save the innocents who want to live their life to the full

then I joked with a friend and suggested tea and sugar during the interview,served cold would signify torture! In the end terror will win as there is no reasonable method to obtain information.

what method is reasonable to obtain information with no time to spare in some cases.

what method would your enemy use to obtain information from captured UN forces?

are the west soft targets because they know if caught they would live a life of luxury and fed and maybe given voting rights after 5 yrs!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 23:34

I'm with the torture is acceptable brigade in respect of terrorists.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/11/2010 23:56

By saying you accept to torture thouands of civilians just in case one is a terrorists actualy puts you well and truly in the terrorist camp. Isn't that ironic?

Eye for an eye leaves everybody blind.

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 01:57

I would suggest that the morons who advocate the use of waterboarding have no idea what is involved.

But it seems that most of the contributors to this forum don't have much idea - full stop !!

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 02:54

For every person tortured, you immediately create a hundred more terrorists/extremists hell bent on revenge. Innocent people will say anything to stop being tortured, will say whatever the bully boys want to hear, and extremists will allow themselves to be tortured to death, rather than say a word.



Blair and Bush should be at the International Court of the Hague awaiting trial for war crimes - both admitted to being mendacious fools, who to this date, take no responsibility for their heinous actions, both saying God told them to do what they did.........

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 11:42

msge 33



9/11 happened before the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Can you just remind me why the suicide bombers targeted America?



Iraq invaded Kuwait.

Eventually, the Americans went in, did the job and left. They also did not go in to Iraq and take over the country (at that time). According to the journalist Jason Tomaric , the Americans did not ask for lower oil costs for doing the work. The US pays the same for the oil in Kuwait as any other country.



Is the issue because American troops are on Middle East soil or because they have gone too far in pushing their values and economic policies on others? Americans are also on South Korean and Japanese soil. The US navy also protects Taiwain. These countries are mostly happy (apart from perhaps Japan) and grateful that US troops are there.



Should the US pull out of countries and let others look after themselves? If so, which other countries would step up and do the dirty work the Americans do? and pay for it?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 12:10

Very Easy really.

America Created Taliban and Al-qaida to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Once the Russians were kicked out, the three other cause worth fighting for was removing US from Saudi lands and stop the support the US gives to Israel and avenging Iran Air Flight 655 shot down by Americans in the Gulf. You didn't think they would be forgotten did you? Particularly after sailors that shot down the civilian plane were decorated as war heroes. Next time it may be with a nuclear bomb on board.

Why 9/11 you say? it's when America arranged a coup in Chili in 1973. You may think these facts are not connected but unfortunately they are.

The world bank, the world trade center and IMF are very powerful instruments which the west use to maintain 3rd world poverty and keep them in their place. World Trade center is where oil price is controlled despite the Oil cartel pretending to be in control. Is that enough or shall I continue old chap, what?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 12:28

msge 42



Thank you for sharing that. I know that the US did some unsavoury things to ensure that Communism did not spread around the world. Professor Nial Ferguson is convinced the 3rd world war happened. He estimates that 20 million people died through Russia (communism) and America (capatalism) fighting their battles, not directly fighting, but doing so through other countries. It is almost certain that Cyprus was caught up in this.



From your analyses, my immediate reaction is that America is very much involved in a war. If people like you and the Iranians are still unhappy about the plane being shot down and want revenge then, wow. The spark has been ignited and looks likely to burn for a very long time. Where will it end, perhaps Armageddon?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 14:25

Although America paid compensation to the families, it was one tenth of the award they extracted from Libya for not shooting down the PanAm Flight. Is the American an lives on average ten time the life of an Iranian? Or is it because they are Muslims? Why has America not apologist for their stupidity?

You are not reading my posts right if you think I am in agreement of what is going on. I have no more time for the towel heads as you do, but facts are facts and must be said no matter how difficult they are.

What America is doing in Saudi and Palestine today is equally vile. We as society are responsible for what our elected governments do and when we are called to account, just saying it was not me gov is not really an adequate response or defence.

If America ever stops oppressing others for their economic interests, then they can complain about such actions, in the mean time as the old saying is "they must take it like a man" and stop moaning like a bi***.

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 14:52

Msg - misognynist AND xenophobic - hmmmmmmmmm

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 15:39

msge 44



"or is it because they are muslims?"

Did the US not intervene in the Balkans. They waited too long in Bosnia, however that was because European politicians were too busy talking. The US then intervened quickly and radically to save Muslims in Kosovo, but were criticised for being too heavy handed and invading a sovereign state. Sometimes it seems like the Americans just can't win.



Pleased to hear that you will not be joining the Taleban any day soon. I think life in Cyprus would be more pleasant than the rocky mountains of Afghanistan.



What is your issue with Saudi? The US protect the oil routes for the whole of the world, and yes it is in there own interests to do so. Oil is definitely not the long term answer and of course it can’t be. We need to wean ourselves of it, however, it presently keeps the economy turning over which keeps Chinese, Japanese, Americans, Australians, Europeans and Americans warm at night. We would starve without oil. Many Arabs have also g

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 15:40

got rich in the process. When the oil runs out I am sure the US will gladly leave Saudi Arabia.



We may be heading for an argument here, but religion and communism have promised to take people out of poverty but it is only capitalism that can deliver the goods. Yes, it can and has been brutal, but we need to find a way for it to be expressed in a softer, kinder and more benevolent way to help more people. The rich have become greedy and we need to find ways to make it work better. Slowly things might be changing. Americans give far more to charity than the British. Things are changing, some of the rich have found a bigger purpose. Look at Bill Gates and Ted Turner. They are using their wealth, which they created through the capitalistic system to good effect.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 16:43

I have no issue with US in Saudi but the Saudi population seems to have. They have no democracy see? BTW it is not the Arabs that did well out of Saudi oil, approx 2000 Saudi princes and a few oil corporations are the ones who did well, forgive the pun.

Interesting concept getting capitalism to be compassionate? it does not work. Greed is good. No matter what Bill gates or any other rich person does, third world cannot prosper unless there is proper fair trade and none of this pretend stuff. If you can understand TC lingo, have you tried carrying water with "kalbur"? Bill gates is as effective as that.

The irony of all this is that US people give most to charity and US government creates the most poverty in the world. Go figure that.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 17:12

msge 48



"If you can understand TC lingo, have you tried carrying water with "kalbur"? Bill gates is as effective as that".



I think I understand what you are saying. We say 'there is no point giving Peter a fish for a day, you have to teach him to fish for a lifetime'. This is so true and the West have taken along time to get this even though it was outlined in our holy book. We know it now, however, we have to create the right conditions for wealth to be created. Gates is saving babies from Malaria, which frees up the mothers time to be more productive. She also has more certainty over her childs future so she is less likely to have more.



Anyway, you have told me lots about how the world isn't working. What would be your plan for lifting the whole worlds population out of poverty and engaging the whole world so everyone feels included and not left out?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 17:47

Set up being what it is it cannot be done. Whilst the West sits by and allows its' corporations to rob the third world of their resources be it material or manpower, you are using the old kalbur in what ever you do. Whilst the West props up dictators in the third world and oppress the 3rd world populations, it cannot be done. The whole of UN has become the plaything of the 5 Permenant security council members. The world order has become canceros and cannot be repaird. In Yilmaz Guney's words, "There is only one way forward, revolution".



http://www.tradeafricablog.com/2010/01/high-duties-keep-food-imports-from-poor.html



You will find plenty of unfair trade barriers to stop the third world from prospering. The above is just one and there is plenty more. One report I saw recently Processed coffee was 6000%.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 18:14

msge 50



I wrote on another post the other day, that the EU spends something like 40% of it's agricultural budget on supporting French farmers, preventing Africans from selling in to the EU market. To sweeten the pill the EU gives 6% of it's aid to Africa, which of course is not doing the job for exactly the reasons you have mentioned - it's the kalbur.



The world has always been cancerous. It has never been sweet and pure. There has always been the oppressed and oppressors, and there has always been revolutions or repurposing. There are interesting times just ahead.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:14

So at least let us stop pretending that US is all good and proper and Taliban are evil, cause it just aint so. Infact US does more damage in one year than Taliban can do in a million years.



Few years ago I looked into bring a car to TRNC. I checked out the Duty and found that it was identicle to RoC duties. When I got a quote to deliver to port, Limassol came out at £500 and Magusa came out at £2000 with a reputable UK carrier. My cousins in the south of the border are adoment that there is no suffocation of Turkish Cypriots.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 05:43

msge 52



"My cousins in the south of the border are adoment that there is no suffocation of Turkish Cypriots." - well they are living in cuckoo land



So I think we have come to an agreement, that there is good and bad in all societies and if push came to shove, and we both were given the choice between living in the US or in Afghanistan with the TalIban You would choose the Taleban with their principles and I the US with theirs. I know, neither would be my first choice either, but hey least we are clear where we stand.



"Infact US does more damage in one year than Taliban can do in a million years".



In this day and age, any society can do more damage than any civilisation that has ever gone before it and that also includes the Taliban. All one needs, is access to a certain technology which we all know about.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 11:33

You can live anywhere you like especially in US LA where the gangs are very compassionate, but I will continue to spend my time between UK and TRNC with conscience, aware who the real baddies are on this god forsaken earth of ours.

Regards.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 11:58

Dear ilovecyprus,



Douglas Murray is called the only neoconservative in the UK.



I think I have just found another one.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 12:36

Msge 55



Nice to know I have a buddy

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 03:36

Yfred - you've got it !!!