Partition but how soon will it be

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 20:00

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/turkey/turkey-weary-wait-europes-gates/20101111





The meeting in New York should hurry things up,

Paul.

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 20:05

Do the TC's want permanent partition of the island, could we stop thinking about ourselves for a while and think about what they want.



Do they want reunification?

Do they want annexation to Turkey?

Do they want to stay separate but keep their status as Eu citizens?



Has there ever been a poll to ask them?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 20:12

suehowlittle/msg 2: 'Do they want to stay separate but keep their status as Eu citizens?'





If they do, they had better start dealing out some equality in 'human rights' and deal with all this lawlessness that has prevailed for so long - otherwise they they don't deserve EU status, or, indeed, the huge grants bestowed by Bruxelles, which, ironically, doesn't recognise TRNC formally.

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 20:19

That told me didn't it! Why so vitriolic?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 21:48

Sue,

They voted yes in 2004,and where kicked hard in the nether regions.So i think you could safely safey that the Turk Cypriots would probably want two states.Perhaps a local could tell us their views on the matter,

Paul.

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:14

What the TRNC need is a Trojan horse to defeat the Greeks at the negiotations.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:15

at the risk of being insulted and patronised

by the one or two bedfellows of gc nationalism on this north cyprus forum:



for good or ill the island was partitioned into two administrations long ago

yes of course the two states do not recognise each other and the legality of one

is only accepted in an obliquely de facto manner by some countries



most probably the trnc will find the isolations wither over the longer term,

since the nations will see very little advantage in their permanence



already politicians in the south are acting a tad nevous about some pretty

innocuous statements by mr bildt foreign minister of sweden and jack straw



I cannot see why nearly everyone hangs on every word uttered by the eu

...most british are convinced membership was an expensive mistake for the uk,

and turkey has been placed in an almost impossible situation



the trnc must clean up its act,

but our friends in the south are completely irrelevant to the reforms urgently needed

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:16

Hi Paul, a poll was done recently on the south cyprus forum, i do no know how many members are actualy Gcs and how many are expats, even how many actually live there. The result was overwhelming YES to partition.

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:23

paul what they want and what they will get is the question . i think its all been sorted a de-fault plan must exist . for twelve months the main players like ankara and the trnc govt have been warning that the end of 2010 is end game time , well nov 18 in new york bekons and i think we will start to see the start of the divorce.



Q. . how many on here rekon the GCs would accept the annan plan of 2004 if they could turn the clock back ?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:30

Turkey, which has one of the world's fastest growing economies, says it is committed to joining the EU, but has suggested it might go its own way, even joining one day the ranks of emerging BRIC countries -- Brazil, Russia, India and China.



Is this a threat to the EU?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:31

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100062729/jack-horatio-straw-and-the-eus-failure-on-turkey/



Andre,

Hardly" innouous " from Straw,just wish that he would have had the bollocks to say it when he wasnt in the shadows,

Paul.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 22:57

paul,



I must confess that "innocuous" was tongue in cheek

perhaps I was interested to see what popped out of the woodwork

...present company excepted



seriously though I do feel people here are mis-using the word "partition"

when what they really mean is "recognition"...a far less innocuos term



finally, no1 d, assume when you mention a threat to the eu this is "bad"

...perhaps we should have orwellian-style "we love big brother" eu rallies

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:00

andy f. in answer to your question i beleive or im told a great many regret voting NO x

andy-f


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 1256

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:11

thanx lilli. been said by many times on here 2004 was the best they where ever going to get

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:15

lilli,



you may be right,

but I understand little of the greek cypriot way of thinking except for this:

many seem to believe that one day they will retrieve the north of cyprus

how this could happen is something I have tried to imagine without success



if you factor in my line three above it explains a very great deal of the inexplicable

...indeed from that point of view, the 2004 compromise offer was irrelevant



in fifty years' time they may perhaps decide they were barking up the wrong tree

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:20

They already have EU status and has been put on ice by the our loving cousins the lovely Greek Cypriots. All have EU pasports, are you not aware of this? If Partition in fact does happen than the EU entry should be automatic. We already have the entry fee in the bank. 259 Million?

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:25

Hi Andre I love reading your posts, like you i will never understand why they did that at the last minute, i have friends both sides and being irish i learned a long time ago not to discuss polotics or religion. Most i speak to south side are quite happy to go along with what they have of course. TC friends i speak to who are able to travel freely for work, health etc are also happy with that, what i think the fear most is that turkey will take us as a state and that they shot themselves in the foot.You explain it in a way most of us could never do and I learn a lot from you xxx

jimchris09


Joined: 13/02/2009
Posts: 547

Message Posted:
11/11/2010 23:31

If most TC's voted in the present TRNC govt, then surely it's an indication that they want a seperate state, isn't it?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 00:22

re msg 7 , andre_514



>>at the risk of being insulted and patronised by the one or two bedfellows of gc nationalism on this north cyprus forum<<



Who are these 'rude' people ?!... Normally, anyone 'supporting' the alleged stereotypical 'GC mantra' is given short shrift.. so I expect these 'one or two' are folk the DO (msg 15) "understand little of the Greek Cypriot way of thinking" .. a HECK of a lot better than your good self..



Lilli.. sadly there are still many GCs who believe that Annan ( in it's final format) was a 'Satanic plan' :(... the irony is that any settlement will a 'watered down' version.



Most GCs will still say they have 'no problem' with the TCs but with Turks.. As we read here, and what I've been saying for years - is now many TCs are saying "be careful what you wish for", re the 'help' they had from Turkey ..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 00:23

(cont)



What REALLY matters ( sorry Cypriots ) is what Turkey wants ...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 00:28

thanks lilli your comments are most gracious



if I can ever succeed in putting over my one point of view it is this:

it's pretty confusing to pan for facts from the dross of history,

unless you first define the point of view of the panhandler:

in the intricate and tangled cyprus "dispute" it would be almost meaningless



for example,when nato was bombing serbia in the cause of freedom,

your average serb was trying to shoot down the planes an equally honourable activity

you could only find right and wrong if you first decided where you stand on the overall issues



an apparently glib recourse would be to un resolutions, eu edicts and so on

however even these are largely manufactured in the image of the international big hitters



...a sombre case in point is the west's original support for the muderous pol pot regime



andre

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 00:44

mark message 19:



I freely admit I understand very little of the greek cypriot way of thinking



...but as regards the cyrus "problem" it seems clear their actions

can be explained by the mystical belief they will one day recapture the north:

significantly, you did not appear to disagree with that concept



after all, you say you campaigned among them for a "yes" vote in 2004

so you can only have invested the time if you hoped they would act rationally



...so why on earth would they now vote in favour of a far less attractive deal,

were such a thing ever to be tabled? It's not rocket science is it?

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 07:50

Msg #2

'Do they want to stay separate but keep their status as Eu citizens?'



They are Cypriots, from the island the EU/UN recognise as only one island.



They cannot cease to be 'Cypriots', under UDHR no person can be without nationality, hence the reason Abu Hamsa couldn't be stripped on UK passport. And their nationality cannot be forcibly changed.

They will remain EU citizens as Cypriots.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 09:45

The EU/UN recognises on the GC government as mentor of the whole island - how totally impractical can they be! If this is their attitude, it is irresponsible, at least, and insulting, at worst. Furthermore, it demonstrates their abdication of responsibility by their failure to pressure TRNC to comply with EU/UN norms in terms of ethical law and 'human rights'. Of course, that applies to RoC, as well. That they ignore and hypocritically allow the 'equality gap' between Cypriots and 'foreign' EU citizens to continue to fester, which is increasingly, and all too evidently, fomenting such an unpleasantly racist attitude amongst the inhabitants of all Cyprus is testimony to their utter lack of committment to their 'constituent' citizens.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 09:48

Msg 24 Cont'd:



Unfortunately, annexation with Turkey seems the only practical solution; however, there will be much 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' when this stark reality comes to fruition, which it must, because without the cash injection from the 'Motherland', the TRNC economy would fold in a few months.



'Whomsoever pays the piper can call the tune!'

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 17:47

Seems I opened a bag of worms here, Pandora's box is more like it.



Wish I had a crystal ball, never know whether to try to sell up and move to France or just spend another 6 years wishing and hoping for "something" to happen here.



Its the not knowing which makes everyone anxious I think

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 18:07

OK this is how I see it.

CTs and GCs have never 'lived' together, there were two separate religions, they both had their own coffee shops and there was very few 'inter marriages'. All of the CTs that I know just want to get on with their lives and want nothing more to do with GCs. The older GCs are now rather diminished in quantity and the 'younger' generation that have had bestowed on them 'refugee' status (never having suffered the problems of the conflict) have been educated to hate CTs and Turks.

Re-unification? I do not think so. 'Settlement'? maybe/maybe not and I would put my money on annexation to Turkey. And I would also put my money on Turkey sticking two fingers up at the EU.

AJ

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 18:27

AJ;



CTs and GCs !!!!!!!



How comes they are GCs and we are CTs?..........and not TCs........

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 18:34

suehowlittle/msg 3: 'That told me didn't it! Why so vitriolic?'



Nothing vitriolic intended towards YOU!



However, you try to be a victim of the lawlessness, as so many expats have, and remain not a little aggrieved.



Property disputes aside, there can be no settlement in terms of the political unification of the island for the very reason that, if Turkey pulls out and funding ceases, the EU and RoC will be reluctant to further burden themselves in order to replace the enormous amount of gratis payments necessary for the TRNC to continue wallowing in its Utopian lifestyle.



The 'status quo' can only be perpetuated through the benevolence of the 'Motherland'; and this, itself, begs the question: 'For how much longer?'

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 18:56

Sal

I call CTs exactly that out of respect and I have been chastised by my neighbours for calling them TCs as for GCs I have no respect for them so I can call them anything I want but being a polite person it will remain GC and as you are probably aware they will be the first to tell that they wanted to join the Greek motherland. So for me Cypriot Turks are Cypriot first and Turkish second and the Greek Cypriots are Greek first and Cypriot second..

You still owe me a beer.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 18:58

Tenakoutou;



When one makes the bed,one must also lye in it.



as far as "'For how much longer?'" is concerned..........Turkey came here to Cyprus in 1974 to bring 'peace' to the island,in fact not only to us but also to GCs as well...........and been here ever since (36 years...).

Perhaps,the main question should be,'how much longer we are going to be accupied' in the eyes of the rest of the world at least.



and............

as for the issues in TRNC (property,etc).....



YOU often remind US of living in 'banana republic' as much as you chose to live here!



I too live here in TRNC also and I too am also aware of these issues in TRNC,however,I was born here.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 19:02

AJ;

I am only pulling your leg...........hold on to it tighter.



You know where I'll be tonight if you fancy a beer,pop in on your way back.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 19:28

re 22 andre_514



What isn't 'rocket science' is that GCS are increasingly aware that President Liealotopoulos ' settlement based on EU norms ain't gonna happen ..



Annan WAS the best deal they could expect.. some asking GCs to accept Annan in it's final version would hardly believe that >> they [GCs] will one day recapture the north: <<



This is why I reckon you aren't the 'realist' you'd have us believe - AND you don't *know* much about how the VAST majority of the ppl on this island 'tick'...



Turkey will have to pay out big time - in the event of a non-solution and 'annexation' would only make that worse.. A brokered deal with the UN would negate / lesson these payouts. Turkey simply can't afford to subsidise 'TRNC' AND payout huge property settlements.



The GCs are going to have to realise that that the ONLY way to be able to live in the 'north' is after a period of HR derogations - even if the whole island comes under the EU.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
12/11/2010 20:08

Why would your average Gc want to see re-unification on the Island.What would they have to gain.Hence there have been no concessions from Christofias.I also understand that he (Christofias) is receiving hate mail and knives through the post,warning him against pushing for re-unification.The whole thing is dead in the water,and has been for some time now.



The Turkish Cypriots were sold down the river in 2004.Six long years have now past.Six long years of broken promises.I personally believe that it will all come to a head before the end of the year.Whether it will become two states,or Turkey,Cyprus,and Northern Cyprus independent,similar to Monaco,i dont know.



Time to move on now and forget about re-unification,as it is so yesterday.Only time will tell,but at least i have managed to get that of my chest.Hope you all have a great evening,

Paul.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 00:22

I wonder whether re-unification is the right word,

just as when we say "partition" we perhaps really mean "recognition"



many greek cypriot voters say they believe that the whole of the island's

governance should be decided by the majority

this is a perfectly reasonable and democratic idea, with the one proviso

that it proved totally unworkable in practice and ended in disaster



they would further argue that the end of the "turkish occupation"

would solve the cyprus "problem" rather than any need to update the 1960 constitution

...why require legal reunification, since they do not accept the island was partitioned?



for cypriot turks, re-unification is an attractive proposition, but with tough preconditions:

and these are most unlikely to be met in the very narrow time frame remaining



while more and more cypriots and even a percentage in the south, already acknowledge

that the two communities went their separate ways long ago

zerochlor


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 4024

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 00:27

After the stabbing of a innocent musician in larnaka im sure the island is best left as 2.



There are to many fanatics in the south who just cannot live together.



I say leave them over there with there euro.



Lets keep the TL and the beauty of the north.



i can buy crumpets in the supermarket,what more do i need

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 00:27

Andre They know that so why this pantomime, every one i speak to north or south are so happy the way they are. I feel now its sad its come down to some outside force making the decision

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 00:43

lilli,



did I say an outside force could decide anything?



any leverage the eu may had over membership would never have been enough to force turkey out



there is a widespread misconception on "44" that the eu is a semi-state, but it has no army of its own:

peacekeeping aside no member would risk a single bodybag returning because of the cyprus "problem"



just how happy they are in the south I am not qualified to say,

and have been accused recently with some justification of not understanding the gc mentality



but most ethnic turks I've met are purely concerned with things improving economically,

and seem very little interested in the "issues" we have all been discussing so earnestly

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 13:19

yorgozlu/msg31: 'When one makes the bed,one must also lye in it.'



And so I do; in fact there is much to enjoy in life in TRNC!



However, that does not excuse being 'legally' lied to, conned and cheated.



I doubt you'd like it if what happened to us happened to you.



However, all that is history now, but for your info., the only reason for us wanting to leave and return to New Zealand is so I can get my pension.



Apart from being denied access to so many places [beaut. beaches!], I don't know why you want the Turkish troops out. Having said that, it would only take a coupla thou. of them to give the GC's the message that they'd better not start their old tricks. The GC's know, full well, the hiding they got last time.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 13:21

Msg 39 Cont'd:



Just hearing those Turkish 'Tigersharks' today will have them splattering their 'Y' Fronts - they know two things which will prevent them starting: 1./ That the Turkish Airforce can be here within minutes. and 2./ Like Mr. Bulent Ecevit is [allegedly] reputed to have warned them: 'Last time we made you run - next time we'll make you swim!'

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 15:56

Tenakoutou,re 39;



"'When one makes the bed,one must also lye in it."



Above comment was used to state Turkey's situation in TRNC.



"I doubt you'd like it if what happened to us happened to you."



I wouldnt dare class myself outside of above..............

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 22:49

message 33 mark:



you're kicking against an open door, I claim little specialist knowledge



on the other hand statements like "turkey will have to pay out big time"

and "the gc's are going to have to realise..."

sound suspiciously like your dreams projected and our nightmares made real



none of us can predict exactly what will happen in the future

but nothing convinces me that your dire warnings are truly objective,

...instead I'd expect much the same mixture as before



I'd hope to be realistic but admit I may be pretty biased in my point of view

but would always be very cynical of those ranting in the "common good"

which in cyprus terms seems to be very much in the eye of the beholder!



please do not number me among the "annexationist" masses:

this move would cause an unecessary rumpus

after all, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?



russia, much admired by cristofias

says it will not annex liberated abkhasia, south ossetia, and transdeniestria

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/11/2010 23:16

re msg 42, Andre_514



I don't 'classify' you at all -as to your stance- I'll leave you to play that game !



My dreams are something akin to Annan and TR and Cyprus in the EU.. simple..



>>russia, much admired by cristofias says it will not annex liberated abkhasia, south ossetia, and transdeniestria<<



Christofias went to a Soviet Uni - so did my wife.. what has that got to do with how they feel about Russian policy ?



At least Turkey hasn't hadn't out TR passports to TCs like Russia has to what are effectively Georgian citizens in Abhkazia and South Ossetia and Moldovian citizens in Transnistria



BTW I think they should be recognised - along with Kosovo - as they HAVE been independent kingdoms.

andrew4232



Joined: 04/07/2009
Posts: 1543

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 01:29

soon i hope then its over with

zerochlor


Joined: 03/04/2009
Posts: 4024

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 02:58

CLOSE THE DOOR

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 10:43

mark message 43:



about cristofias...



I saw an editorial from the south suggesting that he made a big mistake

placing his trust in russia to solve the cyprus "problem"

the writer argued that the eu has always done more to pressure turkey



the russians took greek cypriot chiding very unsportingly over invading georgia,

in this region of course you have several current examples of territory

invaded by a huge military force and set up as quasi-independent statelets:

but it's an arguable case that abkhasia, s.ossetia needed liberating

...though like europe's peace operation in kosovo it has a familiar ring



coming back to 'tof and the cyprus "problem", you would know more about this

but didn't he instruct akel to campaign against annan 2004 at the time?

he gave an interview on local tv earlier this year ruling out compromise



with negociating partners like these, no wonder cyprus 44 if full of stories

about lost kittens, good places to dine and sunloungers under threat

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 10:54

msg40 Those "Tigersharks" were Northrop NF-5 "Freedom Fighters"......Old fashioned with out of date Avionics by today's standards, made in USA..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 11:08

re 46



Andre_514



I'm sorry if I wasn't clearer in msg 43 - I believe we should recognise Abkhazia , S.Ossetia and the Russians should recognise Kosovo.. don't know enough about the Moldovian break-away Republic of Transdeniestria...



Christofias did recommend to AKEL party members in 2004 to vote No - to Annan - saying, "our no means YES" and I have always put this down to him wanting to keep the coalition with 'Liealtopoulos' in place, so he ( and his party) would be 'king' in the future.... putting himself/ his country ahead of his nation... I don't 'go' for his putting 'faith' in Russia.. he knows that they and the Chinese will not vote down the Resolutions declaring 'TRNC' legally invalid - unless there is an agreed settlement - that's a given.. a banker.



He also knows TR can't afford to payout huge compo and sustain the level of support of 'TRNC' - but he ( any GC leader) is now playing a dangerous game as TCs have 'sympathy' for the stalemate causing them 'grief'.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 12:37

message 48:



yes perhaps "we" should recognise these russian protectorates,

and more un members may come to recognise kosovan independence



but the point here, as normandy in 1944 for that matter, is the territories

were all liberated by overwhelming military force and not through negociation



for the caucasus you seem to accept the use military force to "protect civilians"

though you do not extend that approval to the cyprus 1974 turkish peace operation



as regards who is better at supporting greek cypriot fantasies of re-conquest,

medvedev says russia "voted in favour" of every un resolution supporting greek cyprus

but far more significantly, the eu holds turkey to ransom over membership... or tried to



cristofias' "our no means YES"...I'm afraid you have lost me there:

perhaps this is the old balkan custom of nodding when you mean no?

more likely it must be to do with obscure republic of "cyprus" political manoeverings



...of which you are our resident expert

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/11/2010 12:44

re 49 Andre_514



Normandy was/ is in France and was occupied by Nazi Germany... it was liberated.. yes? !



Please don't put words in my mouth - I didn't want / enjoy / think bloodshed was appropriate anywhere.. France and Britain declared war on Nazi Germany for attacking Poland..



>>you do not extend that approval to the cyprus 1974 turkish peace operation <<



Now you understand why.. there was a UN Mandate in place that both GR and TR had agreed to.



re Chrisofias' "our no means yes' - he 'lost' most sane folk...