Cyprus Debate at British House of Commons 16 Nov

Noldoyen


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 07:12

The full transcript of the Adjournement Debate about Cyprus, secured by Jim Sheridan MP, 11-12.30 on 16th November 2010, is available at:



http://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2010-11-16a.212.0



The issues of the comments by Jack Straw and of the forthcoming talks by President Christofias and Mr Eroglu with UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon in New York inevitably featured quite prominently.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 11:03

Hi Korena,

Welcome to the forum,and thanks for posting this link,

Paul.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 11:13

I read through this debate last night and once again the participants didn't seem to know anything about the history of events leading up to the Turkish intervention in 1974. It was all one sided, favouring the poor old Greek Cypriots. When oh! when is somebody going to tell all these interfering do gooders the truth?





The butlers wife

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 11:59

They know the truth, but it either dose not fit their agenda or will hit their pockets. Hypocrites - surely not.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 13:15

I did find part of this debate interesting and this could be the reason why they are so keen to expel the Turkish military from the island. Apart from the island being one of only four windows to space in the world, ideal for listening stations, once again oil & gas become the most important of commodities and Limmasol is to become the oil station of the world. We can see why if this is all true the Greek Cypriots are desperate to get the north back with no interference from Turkey.





The butlers wife

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 13:26

An interesting debate. I have often said that on the subject of compensation for the non-Cypriots that bought displaced GC land or property, the British Government would wash their hands of such claims. They would use the excuse "you were warned and must take responsibility for buying stolen property"



I was therefore not at all surprised to see the following.



" Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, when an agreement is reached, those people who decided to invest in or purchase property in northern Cyprus should not be recompensed by either the Greek Cypriot people or the British Government?



"Members here today will insist, land and property must be returned to its rightful owners without compensation being paid to those people who decided, through greed and avarice to invest their moneys in the northern part of Cyprus"



Best hope Turkey has the money to pay compensation to the Brits that have bought GC land and property, when GC's refuse to use IPC or accept their findings.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 14:05

I supose you should all take lessons on greed and avarice from Westminster MP's. What an ignorant prat.

mamachina


Joined: 22/11/2008
Posts: 730

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 14:10

Where were the few people who stick up for the north during this debate? Education, education, education - thats whats needed!!!

Sundance


Joined: 15/07/2010
Posts: 213

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 14:15

The truth I don,t think they could handle thr truth, Turkey should wash their hands from the EU, just look at the problems Ireland and Greece are having, there is no such thing as a free lunch, if they give you EU money in one hand they will take it away in the orther,



Just my opinion



Sundance

Middle Easter


Joined: 13/06/2007
Posts: 146

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 14:21

I have read the complete online MP to MP transcript & frankly there is no clear understanding of the issues that led up to '74 & therefore the actions of Turkey. The fact that the GC's were killing each other & the TC's were particularly targeted was simply been washed away.....



The Annan Plan is another 'issue' that was generally ignored.....'my hon friend, this & that'..........all I can say is 'my hon. friends, forgive me for being do rude but the Cyprus situation is REAL & not another 'point of order' so grow up'



........now I know why I left the UK!

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 16:35

Totally agree, well said Middle Easter.







The butlers wife

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:10

Here 'we' go again with the 'misinfo'



Middle Easter / The butlers wife



How many TCs were killed by GCs during the run up to the TR invasion / peace movement ?

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:15

Mark I did not give any mis information and we are sick of hearing your biased arguments. If you do not like hearing the truth go post on the souths forums, I am sure they will agree with you there.





The butlers wife

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:24

Numbers are not the issue mmmmmm want to try percentages?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:36

re msg 13



The point is that I'm not the one making statements biased on misinformed data...



Please, TRY answering the specific question - no one ever can.. those that *do* know, would have to agree that the 'excuse' for 'intervention' / invading certainly wasn't GCs killing TCs.. the atrocities at places like ( say) Tochni [ and make no mistake they WERE atrocities] happened AFTER the Turks broke the cease-fire talks in Switzerland... having invaded..



If I'm 'biased' 'coz I'm better informed than you, then I'm 'sorry'



re msg 14



OK, what was the percentage of TCs killed by GCs in the days during the Greek military junta inspired coup, and before the invasion / peace movement..



Think of a number between 0 and 1.. ..closer to the former... and you'd be close..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:46

Turkey had planned the invasion / peace movement long ago, had asked the Brits for permission to land on the SBA ( refused) and agreed with the US state dept how much territory they would be permitted to take.



During the first days of the landings there was utter chaos.. 'blue on blues' by both 'sides' and GC forces were allowing TR troops to pass as they were ordered not to attack - as it was ASSumed that they would retreat - when the UN met.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:49

So please.. can we stop kidding ourselves they the UK politicians are the ones who are 'misinformed' ..



The UK wants a settlement on terms that won't please most GCs and I support those terms.. so talk of 'bias' and 'no clear understanding' of things as they were in '74 by those discussing Cyprus in Parliament is somewhat .. 'ignorant '....

Noldoyen


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:54

msg 14 , do you want figures, I feel that would not be a constructive agruement for your elected side of opinion ...

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 17:57

I don't think it matters at all what this bunch have to say - who the hell is listening to anything they say?

The UN? The Greeks? The Turks? Any Cypriots at all? Don't think so!



As for anyone mentioning that Britain is guarantor power,what a laugh, they have clearly forgotten how that was totally ignored 10 minutes after they signed it!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 18:04

Hi Breezy, actually the GCs are listening, as Jack Straw got 'up their nostrils' and they would agree with you re the inaction by the UK - as guarantor power- but you'd have to ask Mr Callagahan why he agreed to get the Royal Navy to cease the blockade .. as 'suggested' by Mr Kissinger...as there'd have BEEN no landings, otherwise..



Right now, the UK is asking both sides to compromise... and it sees the 'long game' - it can have closer relations with TR within the EU 'club' AND a Cyprus settlement.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 18:20

The precedent for the naval blockade to cease was set when the US earlier told the Brits to get themselves out of Suez and they did !

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 19:15

mmmmmmmm

1963, 1964, 1967 shows quite good examles. So what you are saying is we should have wait until we get attacked and killed and then something should be done. In 74 intention was obvious, people who killed hundresds and hundreds of their own people, obviously wouldn't show any sympathy to turkish Cypriots. All the plans about what would happened after they go through with opposed GC had been discovered. Perhaps you would like to tell us the name of The Plan. Unfortunately today, the same intention has not changed for some many.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 23:26

At least one GC officer has confessed that his orders, when the Turkey’s intervention started, were not to attack Turkish soldiers but TC villages.

And as Sampson said - 'If it wasn't for the Turkish intervention, we would have wiped out all the TC's'



Patientia est a donum superum

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
18/11/2010 23:32

But now its 2010,why do we have to continually go over old ground.Not saying that two wrongs make a right,but how many innocent people have the British murdered over the years,

Paul.

fukace


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 09:10

well said , new lad ,

frankedad


Joined: 21/11/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 09:37

it is so the time to have a clear and accurate factual report of what really happend here, just the truth with no biase..



how can we have politicians discussing our future when all they have is a mass of biased misinformation in front of them..we all need to know the truth .. gc's , tc's , brits , us , eu.....



where do we go to get the real truth. i live here , i am slightly biased , i think turkey had no choice but to invade , but i want the facts/truth..



i also beleive that the british government has all the full facts of the situation as it all occured but has kept it hidden .. why ? ? ?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 09:57

why do we have to continually go over old ground.

Because out of sheer ignorance an MP in the mother of parliments can stand up and speak such twadle. Of course the TRNC can always give up the struggle and allow the GC's lies to become totally excepted.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 11:38

re 22 insider:



I can't answer your hypothetical question - I can offer historical FACTS for discussion.. I know you are refrring to Akritas plan and would remind you that some of those who have signed up to it were now dead or killing each other..



So, now it seems to be suggested that Samson was just 'regrouping' before starting to massacre TCs ?!



If that was the case why was 'restraint' still being largely exercised even when TR had invased.. remind me of the dates of the massacres - how many days/ weeks after TR invaded...?



re 23 Troodo: >>If it wasn't for the Turkish intervention, we would have wiped out all the TC's' <<



When Sampson had power - had the chance, did they do such a thing..?



re 24 Paul: you are coreect, of course... my part in the side debate was to 'correct' those who STILL think those who feel psssionately enough to discuss the CY prob in Parliament aren't fully aware of events or 'biased'

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 11:51

mm Are you suggesting that Sampson did not make this statement?

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 12:05

mmmmmm

Didn't realise the GCs would take too much notice of labour's "elder statesman."

Never had much time for him - until now !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 19:21

Dear Troodo,



re msg 29 - I'm absolutely not disagreeing he said that..



Now can you tell me how many TCs were killed when he was in 'control' ?

measey


Joined: 07/02/2009
Posts: 1037

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 19:43

Msg 12. have to agree with the Butler on this one dont understand your comments at all.



Measey.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 20:29

Measey and Butler,



How many TC's or TC villages were under threat post 64? What was the death toll for TC's 1964 up to 1974?



Perhaps what MMMM is suggesting is that, had Turkey invaded at the start of the troubles in 1962 and 1963, there may well have been justification because TC's and TC villages were indeed under attack. However by 1965 this was no evidence that such atrocities continued to happen.



So it is incorrect to suggest that TC's lives were under threat and that this was the reason for Turkey to invade. Turkey did not invade to save lives, there had been no threat for many years, it invaded as a result of the coup and as a land grab exercise. It was after the Turkish invasion that further atrocities occurred.

twaddle


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
19/11/2010 22:30

Bearing in mind the desires of Sampson and the fact that the TCs were in effect imprisoned in enclaves, should the Turkish Army not have intervened, it would have been like shooting fish in a barrell!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
20/11/2010 10:24

1974. Fifteen pupils from the primary school at Murataga village disappeared following Greek Cypriot attacks in August 1974.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/11/2010 10:46

Bradus re msg 33



Thanks, You have made my point better...





re 35 Troodo



August was AFTER the Turkey invaded..



Can't you see? GCs were killing each other in the first part of July... when it became clear that TR was clearing out GCs irrespective of their beliefs, even those who were sworn enemies and tried to kill each other became united against a new threat.



Please don't think for a MINUTE I'm excusing / condoning any death.. far from it.. I'm suggesting the arrival of the Turks MAY have actually made things FAR worse.



Again.. look at the death tolls before and after..



Why DID Turkey call off those peace talks... it was at that point any sympathy for their actions largely disappeared..



Were some GCs and Greeks monumentally STUPID ?.. YES.. They were 'played' - the arrival of the Turkey was an inevitable consequence - and it was planned a long time before the coup that was it's trigger..

fukace


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 02:28

when did uk politicians ever talk sense

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 03:09

Reg. msg 28.



For my question 'So what you are saying is we should have wait until we get attacked and killed and then something should be done.' your answer is yes.



I was not referring to AKRITAS plan. That was in 60's.

I was referring to IPHESTOS 1974



Greek Cypriot National Guard documents captured in the weeks following the coup d’état, revealed indeed a hair-rising plan to wipe out the entire Turkish population of the island. The plan includes all the details as to

which villages were to be wiped out with their inhabitants, the units assigned to specific areas and tasks, and the very spots to bury the Turkish corpses.

Those involved, or to be involved, in the extermination are detailed in the document with the File number 216/5/296, dated 7 March 1974. It was issued by the National Guard’s 3rd High Military Tactical Command in

Nicosia and signed by its commander Michael Georgitses.

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 03:14

continue.... Under the headline

“Mission”, the directive explained that part of the mission was to prepare the Greek Cypriot population psychologically and to organize them and the police for their wider participation in the cleansing of the Turkish Cypriot enclaves and pockets, using every means available (weapons etc.). It also described how Turkish bodies would be buried in the vicinity of Turkish Cypriot graveyards.The language and style are typically stilted military, but the meaning is brutally clear: “ Attack at night, silently, without using lights, as quickly as possible, for the cleansing of Lefka (Lefke), enclave and the pockets of Aya ‹rini (now Akdeniz), Kazivera (Gaziveren), Elia (Do¤anc›) and Angolemi (Taflp›nar)”. Other files dealt with other specific areas to be attacked and the units assigned to them.

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 03:20

continue... One of them, under the heading “Instructions for Coordination”, directed that “The 2nd and 3rd Bureaux (Intelligence and Operations) of Tactical Group Command should prepare themselves for the

implementation of this plan in order to carry out activities such as wearing U.N. Peace Force uniforms and vehicles, cutting off water supplies, electricity and telephone lines...''

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 11:11

No wonder you keep saying we should not dwell on the past mm. Trust a GC, never!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 11:42

Insider... re3-40



I don't doubt for a second the validity of the 'plan' - but do question it's relevance .. for example did the Akritas plan come into effect...?



*I* could write a peace plan for Cyprus and I doubt it would be re quoted years later as 'evidence' of British mentality re a Cyprus solution..



We are discussing facts - what actually happened.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 13:02

mm.

What actually happened was that Turkey intervened and stopped the GC plans for genocide. Least we forget.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 14:06

You mean like the one's from '63 .. Troodo.. you know how many were killed in the short time Samson the puppet had 'power'..

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 15:04

reg. 42. mmmmm



'for example did the Akritas plan come into effect...? '

Akritas plan had taken start and partually came into to effect but had faild due to the unexpected resistance.

No need to repeat over and over again about what had happened in the effect of the plan then and after.



If the world had discussed enough about what had happened on the island betwee 60 - 74 and had taken the sesitive actions against the criminals, then may be we wouldn't be discussing 74 now.

All nations had sit back and just watched quietly for 11 years while people were murdered, disappeared, without a real freedom of movement, and with heavy economical and social pressures. Even those days the economical support came from Turkey as 30 cyp per family for the people who were not able to go to their jobs and businesses.

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 15:16

The folloving video is just examles to give some idea about economical difficulties, freedom of movement and disappearences.

Shame on the British Parlamant who mostly insists that Cyprus problem had started in 74.

Shame on the British Parlamant who mostly looks blind.

Shame on the British Parlamant who mostly ignores the past and only talks for their personal benefits.



The Lost Bus of Cyprus:

part-1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnF5dvr94Pc

part-2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-gjWkJ_eeo

part-3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gDuDNl64bQ

part-4 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewv6iSOcCY8

part-5 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj8ElBzRJMc

part-6 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khCi9FE4ZpY



each part is about 8-10 minutes.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 18:00

re msg 46 Insider:



Kindly wake up and smell the coffee.. don't you think ppl on here haven't realised that there was a lot wrong before 74..?



I'll give you a 'clue' the UN were present from '63 ...



Shame on you for assuming that MPs are as biased / uneducated re the CY prob...

LazyLobon


Joined: 21/11/2010
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
21/11/2010 23:24

UN came in March 64 I think but Brit army patrolling aid to civil power from Xmas until then. A change of hats for thyem ;)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 00:36

I can see a lot od non-facts in this thread addressed as facts. Pre-1963, Pre-1974 and pro-1974 have been my favourite pass time over the past 4 decades! Anyone wants to know facts, I will give them facts from unbiased sources. This is really too big a subject to deal with, but just to correct couple of things that came to my attention, especially mmmmm's WRONG facts!

To start with, Ecevit actually asked UK government to act together as guarantor powers, and use the bases for a "symbolic landing" qaccompanied with a threat "the British-Turkish joint forces would interfere if the fighting did not stop". UK said "No!". It was a case of fearing EOKA attack their bases and/or thousands of British families residing in the area - a fear of EOKA, that stayed from the pre-republic days.

Nicos Sampson, and his EOKA-B men did attack and kill the Turks before the invasion! You need reminding? What better proof than a GC priest statement; - COMTINUES ON NEXT POST...

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 00:39

The Greek newspaper TA NEA published an interview on 28th February 1976 with Father Papatsestos, the Greek Orthodox priest in charge of the Nicosia cemetery. He recounted the events of 17th July 1974 when Greek officers required him to bury truckloads of Greek Cypriots in mass graves, together with one young Greek Cypriot whom they buried alive, and ten dead Turkish Cypriots. This one priest counted at least 127 bodies brought to him, and there must have been many similar incidents throughout the island.

On 19th July 1974, before the Turkish army landed, Archbishop Makarios told the UN Security Council "I do not yet know the details of the Cyprus crisis caused by the Greek military regime. I am afraid that the number of losses is great... I considered the danger from Turkiye lesser than the danger from Greek army officers."

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 00:58

There are a lot more historical FACTS which you may not be aware of, but questions like "When Sampson had power - had the chance, did they do such a thing..?" about why Sampson did not clear out the Turks, shows complete ignorance of facts on your part!

To start with, Sampson had not gained full power over the island yet, he was too busy clearing the coup resisting GCs first and any TCs that may have crossed their path. HE WAS IN POWER FOR ONLY 8 DAYS! But his intentions to rid the island of Turkish Cypriots and unite with Greece in line with EOKA-B ideology was clear to everyone, including Turkey! Here are some other facts for you;

In an article on 28th February 1976 in the Greek Cypriot press Father Papatsestos said: It is a rather hard thing to say, but it is true that the Turkish intervention saved us from a merciless internecine war... CONTINUES BELOW!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 01:15

The Sampson regime had prepared a list of all Makarios supporters, and they would have slaughtered them all."

On 23rd July 1974 The Times reported: " a production Director from Dublin said he had seen bodies being buried in a mass grave near Paphos after last Monday's coup. People were told by Makarios to lay down their guns and were shot out of hand by the National Guard, he said."

On 6th November 1974 TA NEA reported the erasure of dates from the graves of Greek Cypriots killed in these five days in order to blame their deaths on the subsequent Turkish military action.

As for "the GCs formerly killing each other, uniting against a common threat...", you are wronggg again! No one united with anyone! The maimland Greek army attacked the (500 odd) Turkish contingent in Gonyeli with ten times as many soldiers plus tanks & heavy artillery, whilst the EOKA supporting National guard bit reiforced by unwilling GC conscripts manned the machine guns at the invasion beach! CONTİNUES!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 01:28

Turkish military, after being let down by the British government, dropped thousands of leaflets on the island before hours before the paratroopers landed, saying "we are here to save all the people of Cyprus from the Greek Cunta forces. Do not resist or fight us. You will not be harmed" etc etc. In fact I believe some copies of the leaflets have survived to this day - I shall see if I can find one online!

The GCs never stood aside to allow a Turkish invasion. In fact the biggest loss by the Turks was during the amphibious landings, when they did not expect any resistance (I believe more than 1000 soldiers died!). Once they kept coming and the Greeks realised they have no chance, the first to desert were the mainland Greek soldiers and EOKA men. Left behind were the unfortunate GC conscripts who got slaughtered. They gave it their best shot and remember, att the time, National guard, conscripts, mainland forces and EOKA-B fighters neared 100,000 men! CONTINUES!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 01:39

You talk of UN; WTF!

Where did the UN clowns ever stop anyone from killing the others. I lived through the horrors of 1963 to 1967. The UN were called "tourists". They could never stop Greek National guard from attacking defenceless Turkish villages and killing women, men, young, old alike! We all know how ineffective they were in Bosnia until NATO intervened. As a result we now have nice documentaries about mass graves of thousands of innocent people being discovered - note! Serbians = Greek Orthodox Church! What did UN do to porotect the 3 Turkish villages whose occupants were buried alive during July 1974? What were they doing to protect the Turkish quarter in Famagusta (inside the walled city) when it was bombarded by mortars and under heavy gunfire? Never mind absolutely nothing, but if you can get access to old movie clips of the war, you will see that at the time, the white UN tanks were actually positioned around the walled city, turrets aimed towards the Turkish Quarter!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 01:45

I am glad Turkey did not leave it up to UN or any peace talks before they intervened! There would have been thousands of more Greeks dead and no TCs to save! Perhaps this quote might bring another fact to your attention:

On 23rd July 1974 the Washington Post reported "In a Greek raid on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces arrived." (also Times, Guardian, 23rd July 1974).

On 24th July 1974 France Soir reported: "The Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes in the villages around Famagusta. Defenceless Turkish villagers who have no weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their homes and go and live in tents in the forests. The Greeks' actions are a shame to humanity."

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 01:50

The German newspaper Die Zeit wrote on 30 August 1974: “the massacre of Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta is the proof of how justified the Turks were to undertaken their (August) intervention.”

On 12th March 1977 Makarios had declared "In the name of ENOSIS that Cyprus has been destroyed."

On Independence Day 1985 the Greek Cypriot Daily Simerini lamented as follows: "We believed that we are the centre of the Earth. We thought that we, small and insignificant as we are, would be capable of exercising policy on an intercontinental plane. But also above all we underestimated the Turks. The unstable and fickle policy of our leaders has brought us to the brink of total disaster."

Soon after the invasion, I remember Callaghan (lab) saying on TV "Today Cyprus is a prisoner of Turkey; Tomorrow, Turkey will be the prisoner of Cyprus". Please read the next post to see what Labour said more than a decade later!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 01:58

"Turkiye intervened to protect the lives and property of the Turkish Cypriots, and to its credit it has done just that. In the 12 years since, there have been no killings and no massacres" Lord Willis (Lab.) House of Lords 17th December 1986 (Hansard, col. 223).



Irrespective of my feelings for the current status of TRNC, and the suffocation of our community by uncontrolled number of peasants from many Eastern Anatolian regions (mostly Kurds and half-Arabs), as a TC who knows the ACTUAL FACTS, I can never agree with any form of criticism against Turkey or her political stance concerning Cyprus problem, neither can I agree with anyone who may claim the whole problem started with the invasion by Turkish forces.

Thousands of GCs and almost all TCs living here today owe our existence to Turkish army!

LazyLobon


Joined: 21/11/2010
Posts: 14

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 02:53

Masallah, what did they ever do for us? ;)

insider


Joined: 16/11/2009
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 06:08

reg. msg 47

mmmmm you said

'Shame on you for assuming that MPs are as biased / uneducated re the CY prob... '



Thats fine, I can live with that and I am all the way behind my shame.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 09:37

Who is "us"?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 10:17

re msg 49-57, bigoz



Firstly, like me reassure you that a lot of my facts are from TC sources...



Counters: your reasoning re the the British refusing the TR permission to land on the SBA - is pure nonsense.



I have listened to a GC from Limas(s)ol tell me how they were ORDERED not to fire apon passing TR soldiers - on day 1 of the invasion / peace movement - why would he lie to me ? I have know the guy for eight years and did biz with him. It wasn't because they were 'scared'



Ismet can tell you of a AKEL supporting anti Coupist he knows who had lost his home in '63 - expelled by TCs- he was injured fighting EOKA B, and hospitalised, and lost his home AGAIN when TR invaded / came to bring 'peace' .. he is a good example of someone who ended up hating Turks more than EOKA B. Sadly, there is no reasoning with this guy... but he will tell you how TR united sworn enemies who would have killed each other.. why would he 'lie'?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 10:33

Cont



He is wheel-chair bound as a result of EOKA B ( that should give Ismet a clue whom I refer to)



However, agree that I have oft been told by GCs who lost their homes, that the first to run where the EOKA B supporters - the so called 'heroes' - but then these people managed to stay in contact with TCs and found their photos and many small possessions intact when they went back in 2003 - although their house was gone and a new one with an Antaylan family was built in the same spot.



The UN... indeed it is hard to defend when you are constrained by orders and out-numbered.. especially when you face guns smuggled in by the 'mother' nations.



I can understand the Priest's words / feelings - but how many died to bring TR's 'peace' and we really don't know what would have happened as Makarious wasn't killed and the Greek Junta fell at the first sign of TR mobilisation..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 10:41

(cont)



I note you don't try to counter my assertion that most sides were 'played' and that TR was and is quite happy to stay - for her own reasons - not that of 'protecting' TCs who have continued to leave after 'salvation' and are now outnumbered by mainland Turks.



Our truths are probably all correct which only goes to show what a mess Cyprus was...



However, the thread was about UK MPs and became about their ability to speak about Cyprus.. I'm quite sure all perspectives have a Cypriot advisor or two... but you shouldn't forget that the UK is a member of the EU and wants TR in the EU..



whether you like it - or not - the UK is still a player - and you'll find many more GCs who resent that as THEY think the UK let THEM down !

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 12:30

msge 63



"However, the thread was about UK MPs and became about their ability to speak about Cyprus.. I'm quite sure all perspectives have a Cypriot advisor or two..."



Yeah right mate, most politicians are really going to know about Cyprus. When questioned about the UK debt many did not even know the size of it, so I feel confident many remain uneducated and ignorant about Cyprus.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 13:35

mmmmm I do understand where you coming from BUT all I can say at the moment facts need not be the truth all the time, unless reported by independent sources who actually witnessed the vents (eg: UK soldiers on the island, reporters of Europen newspapers and TV stations, UN soldiers etc). People can glorify or understate the events to suit oıwn beliefs, hence that your friend stated to you what he did is a fact, but not a reliable source for anyone seeking the truth! I have many friends who say many things (and they have no reason to lie) but I would never base my arguments on a hear say. I quote independent, and even Greek resources to support my arguments.

mmmmm! I warn you, I am not your averege ill informed poster. I am yet to be proven wrong in any GC or TC forum, so please refrain from making risky statements like "your reasoning re the the British refusing the TR permission to land on the SBA - is pure nonsense". Below is my response to your comment above;

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 13:39

British released documents for 1974 The 1974 British Foreign Office and Ministry of Defence documents released on the 1 January... (2005);

On the 11th of February the idea of Federation was officially demanded by the Turks. On the 13th the Turkish Foreign Minister told the British Ambassador in Ankara that the federal system was their objective in order to put the Turkish minority on an equal footing with the Greeks. On the 27th of February the Turkish constitutionalist working in Cyprus explained to the British High Commissioner that the bicommunal state remained the Turkish goal but they did not have faith in the 1960 Treaties and that Federation would not work without geographical separation.

On the 12 July the Cyprus High Commission in London delivered to the Foreign Office a memorandum about the impracticability of a federal solution which was a clearly Turkish solution and Turkish demand which Archbishop Makarios rejected as it would lead to partition. CONTİNUES!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 13:48

On the 17th of July Makarios who had been rescued by the British and transported via Malta to London met with Prime Minister Harold Wilson and Foreign Secretary James Callaghan and agreed with Prime Minister when the latter tried to put words in his mouth that the actions of Greece amounted to an invasion.



The same day Turkish Prime Minister Ecevit also met with Harold Wilson and James Callaghan and ASKED PERMISSION TO INVADE CYPRUS THROUGH BRITISH BASES. Although they refused to join Turkey in such an operation, purely on legal grounds..." and it goes on.

It is a historic FACT that Turkey did ask UK for a joint operation in Cyprus, and there is no denying of that, but the fine details of what Wilson and Callaghan discussed with Ecevit did not become evident until the release of related papers some 30 years after. You can read full etails for yourself if you buy the book "The British Journal of Politics & International Relations" by William Mallinson. CONTINUES BELOW

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 13:51

Volume 9, Issue 3, pages 494–508, August 2007

Itclearly states in there: "Despite the legal advice that if joint action were refused, ... quite the contrary: the foreign secretary (Callaghan) refused to offer use of the British Bases...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
22/11/2010 14:24

msge 61



"why would he lie to me"



cognitive dissonance

fukace


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
24/11/2010 14:21

I was under the impression that no t/c s were killed in the attempted coup.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
24/11/2010 14:42

BigoZ



>>mmmmm! I warn you, I am not your averege ill informed poster. I am yet to be proven wrong in any GC or TC forum<<



Well, now - there's a challenge you are not going to 'boast' about much longer... !



Now, I can even see where you are coming from, but you don't know this GC or his stance on the CY problem, and frankly, if you ask 20 people who see an accident unfold they will tell you 20 different accounts ... even editing a TV sequence can make something / someone 'culpable'



So, we are left with assimilating 'data' and making judgement calls.. THIS is when opinions differ..



I see no reason to doubt the accuracy of the GC who was told NOT to attack TR troops.. nor the reasoning.



Now, the British can be 'diplomatic' and refuse a joint exercise and TR landings via the SBA for 'legal reasons' .. but they didn't agree with the idea at all - that is why the UK mobilised the RN to blockade any TR invasion - until 'called' off by 'our cousins' .

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 22:22

in reply to fukace (?) believe that is correct ...but if they had "won" not sure if it would have stayed that way ,..