Rauf Denktash - Cyprus Today

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 11:23

Article published in last Wednesday`s Cyprus Today.



DREAMING OF MARAŞ

Rauf R. DENKTAŞ





Eighty-three year old millionere Andreas Lordos’s “dream of returning to Maraş” and his “record claim to the Immovable property commission” have made headline news during the past few weeks and as usual this news has only been viewed from the Greek Cypriot side’s “dream-box”.



Mr. Lordos claims that “almost 90 percent of Maraş” belonged to himself and his family or was developed by himself and his family. “I will never sell my properties” he says.



The Maraş story has to be told clearly and openly together with the story of 103 villages from which nearly 30,000 Turkish Cypriots were forced to flee in fear of their lives between 1963 and 1974.



These people also had their dreams into nightmares when Makarios, “the man of God” destroyed the guaranteed partnership state to hand the island over to Greece.



continued...

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 11:25

Mr. Lordos was enjoying his luxury in Maraş from 1963 to 1974 while 30,000 Turkish Cypriots were forced to live in tents or caves living on Red Crescent aid for months and not knowing what the next day would bring.



Mr. Lordos and those like him fled from Maras, which is also known as Varosha, when Turkey landed on Cyprus’s northern shores in a bid to prevent the colonisation of Cyprus by Greece and the resultant extermination of the Turkish Cypriots.



Does Mr. Lordos, think the problem of the 103 villages evacuated by Turkish Cypriots should not be solved, while his problem, which arose eleven years later, should be is solved sooner?



According to the 1946 census, arable land owned by Turkish Cypriots, amounted to 38.5 percents; 51 percent of the “500-1000 donums of big farmland”: belonged to Turkish Cypriots. But they were forced to live, for eleven years, in three percent of the area of Cyprus.



Does Mr. Lordos believe his case can and should be solved in isolati

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 11:26

….ion from these realities? Will he be fair enough to concede that these property question should be solved globally on the basis of the realities of Cyprus, namely, on the basis that both Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot owners should receive equal treatment in settling the property questions?



Surely being the richest man in Cyprus, surely, does not entitle Mr. Lordos to special dreams and special treatment!



But, there is more to be told on the Maraş issue:



Mr. Lordos will remember the repeated calls made by Turkey and by myself to the residents of Maraş, to come back to their properties and the immediate rejection of these offers by Mr. Kiprianou.



We put our offer into various UN documents, again to be rejected by Greek Cypriot leaders who urged the Security Council to take measures so the Turkish Cypriot side or Turkey would not touch even a stone in the area.



The result has been the gradual deterioration of the buildings as the years.

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 11:28

Who, then, allowed Maraş to be ruined? The Security Council did, by listening to the pleas of what they regarded as the legitimate government of Cyprus.



Now Mr. Lordos says he hates all the politicians - and no one can blame him for that - but his hatred should have started in 1963 when Turkish Cypriots were being slaughtered and forced to live in three percent of the area of Cyprus!



Now, Greek Cypriot leaders have come to their senses and want a peace-mill settlement of the problem while retaining the stolen title of “the government of Cyprus”, forgetting that the problem has to be settled as a whole.



So, demanding Maraş, then the Karpaz area, then Güzelyurt, while the essence of the conflict (the status quo) continues to the merriment of the Greek Cypriot leadership cannot be accepted. Is Mr. Lordos unaware that 85 per cent of the area on which he and his family has built hotels is Vakıf Land, unlawfully converted into private ownership?



This aspect

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 11:30

This aspect of Maraş has to be thoroughly investigated and the relevant Vakıf must be compensated for unlawful use of its land. Loizodou’s case is a useful precedent.



If, therefore, Lordos’s buildings are really on Vakıf Land, then Mr. Lordos must to compensate the Vakıf in question for the use of the land over the years, and will have to agree to continue to give rent for the future because Vakıf land cannot be sold or eliminated in anyway except by exchange of property of equal value. Vakıf means dedication of the land in the name of God and this land becomes inalienable.



The fact that, in unknown years past, someone managed to grab Vakıf land and obtained a title deed in his name does not deprive the owner of the land of his right to the property. And there is no time limit for obtaining such a title deed in the case of illegally acquired Vakıf property. This has been firmly established in the Courts of Cyprus both during the British

Mandy


Joined: 25/10/2009
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 11:31

rule and three years of the Republic.



UN Secretary - General Ban Ki-Moon is urging the leaders to settle the property question.



Obviously Mr. Ban does not know why Christofias wanted to take up the talks with President Derviş Eroğlu, from the property issue. He did so, because he knew it would be impossible to agree on the question and expected to put the blame on the Turkish Cypriot side and continue the never-ending “we are ready to continue the talks but…..” game!



Mr. Ban has not yet realized that the policy of the Greek Cypriot leaders is to retain the title of “the government of Cyprus” and continue with the status quo until the Turkish Cypriot side collapses and Turkey is forced by the EU and others to capitulate to unjust and unjustified pressure.



So, pleasant dreams to all involved who refuse to diagnose the Cyprus problem and continue to treat the culprit, in the case, as the victim.

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 14:30

Is that the same Rauf that got 1.5 million quid (I think that was the amount) for the EVKAF land. ...????

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 17:33

msg 7;



so,what you saying now cousin.............WE are EVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





bolli mamma,bolli gagga...................

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 17:45

Don't pay too much attention to our cousins from the south of the border Yorgo. Efkaf lands belong to us and not even Efkaf could sell them never mind RD. Our GC cousins love to push the idea that RD sold the lands that did not belong to him and that was fine and dandy but if TCs sell land in the north that did not belong to them it is not allowed. We are used to the double standards being peddled by our cousins in the south of the border. They know what to do with it, I do believe I told them enough times that even the lowest of the low should be able to remember by now.



May I take this opportunity to wish my lovely cousins in the south of the border a "bolla gala hristosmera" and next time not to let their prophet be nailed on a cross. That was damn right inconsiderate and careless.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 17:48

RE msg 9, YFred: (...) next time not to let their prophet be nailed on a cross. (...)

▶ Another lie they keep alive.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 17:55

What? was Jesus not nailed on the cross?

I man I know that Jesus was not an actual person in history but Romans did nail people on the cross didn't they? I've seen it in Spartacus.

the butler


Joined: 22/06/2007
Posts: 1958

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 19:45

Hi Hans,



We are going off thread but would be interested in your thoughts as to what did happen to Jesus? That Jesus was a holy man is not in question but what do you think happened to him? You could be contraversial and start another thread on this subject.





The butlers wife

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 20:39

Mrs Butler, I know the truth behind that. Jesus has not arrived yet. He will arrive, drive the turks out of Cyprus and save my lovely cousins taht live south of the border.



Even Freakapu believes that and he is a TC or at least so he says.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 22:35

Turkish Cypriots were being slaughtered and forced to live in three percent of the area of Cyprus!



my dear rauf knows that very well because he was the one with TMT THAT FORCED THE TCS IN THAT SO CALLED 3% for the so call taksim

and dont try to deny it.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 22:57

Tracer!

That is utter rubbish! Totally unfounded and a very stupid claim! I can produce loads of evidence to contrary from independent sources. But believing to be "innocent until proven guilty" - I would like to first ask you to prove your claim. Do you have any written evidence (preferably from inmdependent sources) or otherwise to support the rubbish you bothered to throw at us a s a post?



If you have not - then "galinihtasas" and good writtens...



YFred - stop calling them our cousins please! No uncircumcised, racist educated, politically illitrate, "muslim hating" Greek Orthodox is a cousin of mine! I even refuse to accept them as part of the general Cyprus culture, until they agree to TCs as being equals and start teaching true history of Cyprus at their schools!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 23:01

please leave jesus out of it. some of us irish still hold our faith x

Dixie Normus


Joined: 22/02/2008
Posts: 820

Message Posted:
09/12/2010 23:12

Lilli, with the debit you irish have I'd hold on to anything you can.



D.N

littlejohn


Joined: 09/03/2009
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 01:51

Denktash knows how the people in the south operate better than any of you lot. He had to deal with the likes of his "holiness" Makarious - the Ian Paisley of Cyprus !!!

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 14:54

msg 15

"Turkish Cypriots were being slaughtered"

Yes from 63-74 only 503 person are missing and you call that slaughtered

and from the gcs we found with dna 187 with a hole at the back of their head from 9 and 45mm guns what are you calling that!

and this is from UN documents.

you can also talk to old TCs they no the real truth.



"I even refuse to accept them as part of the general Cyprus culture"



this is a matter of basic history when you came to cyprus we was already here for centuries. just read some books .



"until they agree to TCs as being equals"

If you want to see you as equal behave like one and not like a vulture

Rauf said that you own 38% of the land and you believe in him is wrong because the truth is the you own only 18% tcs and efkav. check the british land registry .



but the real truth is that you believe only what you like to hear.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 15:07

Tracer, I was there and saw the terror in the faces of the Turkish Cypriots coming into Lurucina. You can believe all you like but the real truth is that Eoka drove these people away. In 1963 people moved 3 miles from Bodamya to Lurucina. From Isozomeno the Turkish Cypriots were surrounded by Eoka and only allowed to escape after 50 armed Lurucadis went to their aid witnessed by one english soldier and recorded at the UN. Between 1963 and 1974, they could have walked back to their village if that wanted to any time and did not. Not even one. Sooner you accept the real truth and the role Eoka played in driving the Turkish Cypriots into the enclaves the better we'll get along my friend. The more you peddle the rubbish that you do you will find that even the pro-peace TCs will not trust you.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 15:12

Listen BigOz, I love my cousins in the south of the border to death and there is nothing anybody can do about it. They just like to delude themselves every now and then and believe that their new saviour will come and drive the Turks out of Cyprus and save them. They are particularly stupid but hey lets not mock the afflicted. They can't help it. Their favourite saviour is France. They are banking on the french to come and save them.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 21:24

So Yfred can you tell me how many tc not in the enclaves had any problems until 74 or even in 74 you can imagine that they were easy targets,so why we dident kill them all.

afer all we are your blood thirsty cousins ..





but its ok stay by your fairytale..



"Their favourite saviour is France"

what about yours saviours the al mighty turkey still saving you with the settlers and their army . ...............................still a minority until they disapear you from cyprus

you must stand up to them not us we are not the enemy my cousin.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 22:00

I think you will find that tracer aquired these truths of his directly from his GC teacher - pity him.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 22:07

DNA them all and see who are the real cousins. The GC's can pay for the exercise as they think they are totally right, lets see! Do they have the courage of their convictions?



Richard

alphabeau


Joined: 22/11/2010
Posts: 13

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 22:43

Interesting view:



"this is a matter of basic history when you came to cyprus we was already here for centuries. just read some books"



Objectively speaking, look at the north coast of Cyprus, from Kyrenia to the Karpaz, and tell me that it did not break away from what is now known as mainland Turkey, from Anamur to Mersin ?



That is also a matter of basic history.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 22:49

Tracer, there were 2000 refugees in Lurucina from 63 to 74 and not one went back. Whay not? what was stopping them? Yet when Turkey intervened, they couldn't run north fast enough. You may not have seen what eoka did to these people but they did.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 23:21

from 63 to 74 and not one went back. Whay not? what was stopping them?

TMT MAYBE?



and just for your information i was never be iwill never be a fun of eoka b they was chasing my father for his

believes.



as you have issues with Eoka come and join the club but i have also my issues with TMT but never with the common CTS we are all CYPRIOTS .

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 23:36

Yes we are Tracer - BUT unfortunately your side are the badly misinformed Cypriots!

I can really embarrass you and quote some independent sources to prove just how wrong you are on the issue of TCs suffering berween 1963 -74 (as I have done many times in GC forumss - YFred must know) - But Hey! What the heck! You will not change your brliefs and neither will your comrades (eoka or no eoka), so why should I waste my precious time?

I have not seen you quote one reliable source to back your claims - everything is a hearsay from what I see - so what is it we are arguing about?

I think it's best for us all if you stay on your side and we stay on ours - the rest is history...

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 23:56

Tracer, in Lurucina, the TC positions were all on the hill tops around the village. All the refugees had to leave the village to make a living. Either in the fields surrounding the village or in Nicosia. They had plenty of chance to go back if they wished to do so it was walking distance. Believe me I am no friend of TMT either, but where we were TMT was a defensive organization. Protecting the village from being attacked. They did not stop any TCs from going back if they wished to do so. You are hearing an eye witness account not hear say or any other stories.

I am glad you are no fan of eoka, because some of your people on another forum swear blindly that eoka was disbanded in 1960 and was reformed in the 70's.

Just for your information in Lurucina, there are 4 TCs missing from 1963, picked up by police and never seen again. Absolute disgrace that the police were allowed to join eoka. One was my 20 years old cousin and an other my neighbour with 4 young kids and none were T

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
10/12/2010 23:58

and none were TMT members, just workers going to work. Another was a nurse working in Nicosia Hospital.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 08:37

I know the stories Yfred kofiniou mathiatis ayios vasilis etc . I never said are not truth . but all those kilings etc are not made from the whole population of the Gcs .And you know very well who drove us in this situation very well .

and Raufs slogan tcs and gcs cannot live together i cannot believe it or accept it.

Now if you are surfing in the internet and listening what the narrow minded says and believe it i can help you.

what i know is the i can be a friend (and i am) to a tc also living next door or even in the same room even with you who loves me to death.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 09:01

Tracer - message 19



How many people need to go missing before you call it slaughter? One would be enough for me.



I stopped getting into these debates a long time ago as everyone has an entrenched position. I've not known one person who has jumped sides as a result of debating on this on any other forum so seems a waste of energy to me. In saying that, Markymark (6 mmmmmms to you) has mellowed considerably of recent times and is now a perfect gentleman. I don't think his basic views have altered though.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 10:54

msg 32

"How many people need to go missing before you call it slaughter? One would be enough for me".

how many soldiers had to be found with a hole on the back of their head to call it war crime. ?

im not trying to change nobodies opinion .



both sides done what they done its time to put it behind us this is my believe. the ordinary people is not to blaim.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 12:07

If any of you bothered to read Martin Packard's (a British officer) book "Getting it Wrong" you would realise that with his own eyes he witnessed incidents where both sides arguments are supported. EOKA did intimidate TCs and TMT did "encourage" its own to leave some villages for political reasons. On the other hand Packard also reported instances where the opposing communities stood together against intimidation from extremists.



Had Packard and his teams been allowed to continue their work in 1964 many Cypriots would have returned to their villages but the UN turned up. Packard was a peacemaker, the UN's mandate was merely peacekeeping. George Ball famously told Martin Packard that he was "getting it wrong" and went on to say "we (the US) want partition". That was in 1964, 10 years later Ball and the USA achieved its aim.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 12:36

Tracer, I don't think you fully appreciate the meaning of "loving somebody to death", to me it means to feel extremely strong affection for someone.

I agree that in some parts of Cyprus TMT did their best to stop people trading with GCs and encouraged the people to move to enclves, but the reason people suddenly took off and left all their livelihood behind was fear of being killed by eoka. Particularly when police were members of eoka. Not one person has ever been done for killing TCs. You may say nor did the TCs, but RoC was the legitamate legal internationally accepted government and had the duty to uphold the law. Not use the excuse for a few thousand TMT members to unleash the violence she did to the whole of the TC population. Who were the untouchables in the ROC, Makarios, Clerides, Yorgadjis , Sampson and a whole lot more people who were leading Eoka and at the same time controlling the gangs? These were murderers who were supposed to protects us. Some protection?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 12:48

Were you aware of the idea Papadobullos had of filling the fire engins with petrol and using them against the TC villages to burn them down. What was Papdobulloses role in government?



Or when It came to public spending for TCs benefit? Makarios decided that rather than building a two lane road to a TC village they should construct a one lane road and save half the money. Papadobullos comment was money wasted on the TCs.

With mentality like that how on earth did you expect the TCs to trust GC to change the constitution and remove any protection.

Lets face it, the only chance we had of living together and you guys frothed in the mouth and could not wait long in enough to drive us out of Cyprus. Now we have to live together but separate if you get my meaning.

What has stuck in my mind is not the indiscriminate shooting into village from the church on the hill, or being targeted by a sniper but as I was leaving Cyprus in 72, the word "Stanatheman" from mouth of you customs man.

damchi


Joined: 21/05/2010
Posts: 26

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 14:17

Is there somewhere a member of this Forum who, as a British soldier, was based in Cyprus from mid 1950's to 1960? Can someone not remember why Ledra Street was called 'Murder Mile', can someone not remember the number of British wives and children who were shot in the back, or the number of off-duty soldiers similarly shot in the back? Does no-one remember the name Marcos Drakos?

Memory loss is one thing, covering up facts is entirely a different matter.

apc2010


Joined: 28/07/2010
Posts: 1689

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 14:19

check out the website britain little wars all the facts on there

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
11/12/2010 17:28

Damchi, that was before the agrement. In 1960, we had peace, independence and a constitution. It took 3 months for the GC side to have a meeting to set out a plan to destroy the republic and join it with greece. It was called Akritas plan. The rest is history. Which is why we are where we are today.



http://www.conflictstudies.nl/access/wiki/site/conflictstudies/akritas%20plan.pdf

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 22:58

msg 36

Not use the excuse for a few thousand TMT members to unleash the violence she did to the whole of the TC population



Yfred in 63/64 TCS/TMT numbers was 10000 fully armed men and trained from the tr army you must know that .

also you must know what was the number of the armed forces of the ROC much much less with equipment from the 2nd ww2 and beyond.



"as I was leaving Cyprus in 72, the word "Stanatheman" from mouth of you customs man"



this was just one brainless person YFRED. we have a few of them here (both sides)

and those few are trying hard to fully destroy this island.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
14/12/2010 02:16

tracer,



updated, does your posting above not allow for a compromise solution?



andre

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
14/12/2010 07:21

msg 41

A solution without separation Antre I've said did before too small to split it.