Why do we have north at the top?

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 19:19

This is not a matter related to Cyprus, but a question that Dutch Crusader might find interesting It is something that occurred to me the other day, but something that is still puzzling me.



Because of how the earth spins (and its orbit around the sun) I can understand why we have north/south at the top/bottom of maps, but why not have south at the top: The Earth's position in the Solar System does not answer the question because we could equally well look at the world if we were rotated 180 degrees ... thus Antartica would be at the top.



At some point cartographers decided that north would be at the top of the page, but why ?



A friend suggested that, with maps orientated this way, the compass needle points upwards ... and we like things pointing upwards ...



Why do you think?

Scoty


Joined: 23/05/2010
Posts: 846

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 19:27

The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning "down" (or "under"). (Presumably a natural primitive description of its concept is "to the left of the rising sun".)



Caucasian peoples, such as Avars and Chechens; as well as pagan Turkic peoples. In many languages of Mesoamerica, 'north' means also 'up'.



Hope that helps

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 19:28

It's probably to keep the antipodean minority in their place, at the bottom of the heap !! lol!

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 19:30

Seriously though the Greeks and Roams at one time had East at the top for the rising of the sun.

Then people discovered the rotation axis, and the equator and it makes more sense as it is now.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 19:32

Look at the people living in the TRNC and then compare them to the bankers that exist in the south of the border. I rest my case.



However, another way of thinking about it is just consider the people who made that decision. For instance they thought that the earth was flat and the centre of the universe. Now, there is one nation who feel they are the centre of the universe and that is our cousins who live south of the border.



So in conclusion it was the Greeks that did it. Blame them. They are responsible for all ills on this earth. Why else do you think all the ilnes names are based on greek words. Enna theo tria dessera. Simple really.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 20:12

Good and interesting question in msg 1 (I mean it)! I'll wait to read all (?) the answers copied from Wikipedia etc before I'll give you the scientific answer. Next one, please...

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 20:17

Because if it was the other way round all the magnets would be wrong and if the magnets were all wrong then all the generators magnetic fields would be wrong and if they were wrong there would be no electricity and if they didn't work we would all live in North, I mean South, no wait that place we would then have to call upper Cyprus and that just sounds silly.



Ok enough posts for me, back to my lonely existence.



Paul

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 20:44

Well, time for a little cartographic joke, if you allow me... Where is "the North" on these locators? THINK, or you'll be wrong...

▶ http://www.allcrusades.com/BB_pics/where_is_the_north.jpg

Answers (and it would be interesting to read "why"!) below, please...

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 20:46

Thanks for replying guys



Re ; msg 4 - YFred wrote "Then people discovered the rotation axis, and the equator and it makes more sense as it is now". But YFred, discovering the rotation axis could still lead cartographers to having south at the top.



Re ; msg 2 - Scoty wrote "The word north is related to the Old High German nord, both descending from the Proto-Indo-European unit ner-, meaning 'down' ".

Wouldn't that lead one to having north at the bottom of the map Scoty? :-(

I think being "to the left of the rising sun" could be a reason Scoty, ie. because Western Civilisations write from left to right ... and visualising a map, while looking at the rising sun, would mean doing the more natural thing of writing down the paper.

It's interesting that in the ancient civilisations of Meso-America "north" meant "up", but were their maps (or plans) drawn as such. And one has to ask if this affected the decisions made in Europe as to north being at the top.

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 20:49

Re ; msg 7 – Proger wrote "Because if it were the other way round, all the magnets would be wrong."



But Proger, they are only "wrong" because it was a convention accepted centuries ago that magnets pointed to the top of the map. And Proger, having our maps rotated 180 degrees would have no effect whatsover on a generators's magnetic field. However, I'm sure you don't lead a lonely existence Proger

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 20:59

Just a thought from a cartographer: when were the first maps with N at the top drawn - when was the compass invented and when was it introduced in Europe and where..?

The question in msg 1 rermains interesting: "At some point cartographers decided that north would be at the top of the page, but why?"

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 21:22

I know you don't like Wikipedia Hans, but there it writes that the first compasses appeared in Europe and the "Islamic World" in 12th and 13th centuries.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass



Maybe up to that point many maps were orientated the other way round. But "post-compass" they became they way we accept now.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 21:33

You'll find that quote came from yrret and not me.

What difference does it make whether we call south north or not. It is a point of reference and so long as we all use the same one then it does not make a blind bit of difference.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 21:37

RE msg 13: Sigh... Another great philosopher entering the wrong classroom.

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 22:32

Another thought Hans - The association with the word "north" and "up" has nothing to do with the orientation of maps - The word "north" could have been given to the direction we now think of as south ... and thus if "north" means "up", as in Meso-America etc, then Antarctica etc would be north.



As I can see it, the orientation of maps has to be because cartographers wanted the compass needle pointing upwards.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 22:41

You couldn't exactly say - I'm going up South" - could you? )

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 22:46

" You couldn't exactly say - I'm going up South" - could you? "

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 23:01

RE msg 15, bonnie1707: (...) because cartographers wanted the compass needle pointing upwards. (...)

▶ Oh? Doesn't the compass needle always point upwards*, wherever you are and with or without cartographers..?

* North Magnetic Pole.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 23:05

I'm just popping down North. )

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 23:39

Re ; msg 18



Hans ... My guess is the cartographers placed the map horizontally on the ground, so that the lands on each side of the map were pointing in the direction of where the lands actually were. The cartographers then shuffled around the map (while facing it), trying to find at which angle the compass needle pointed directly away from them.

For reasons perhaps to do with fertility the catographers prefered looking at the map when the needle was pointing away from them









If however they had rotated theselves and the map 180 degrees and had then placed the compass on the map it would have pointed

bonnie1707


Joined: 06/06/2010
Posts: 95

Message Posted:
12/12/2010 23:42

Sorry, I thought I had deleted that last bit - Just ignore "If however they had rotated theselves and the map 180 degrees and had then placed the compass on the map it would have pointed ... "

Maz


Joined: 29/03/2009
Posts: 1924

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 00:19

In Austrtalia you can buy maps with Australia at the top and Europe 'down under'. A bit of reversal and so north becomes south and down under becomes up over.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 00:51

DutchC have you heard of the phrase its double dutch?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 07:48

RE msg 23, YFred: (...) DutchC have you heard of the phrase its double dutch? (...)

▶ Yes, YFred, I have. And for your information: there are 64 expressions in the English language with "Dutch" in them. Dutch uncle, Dutch courage, Dutch cap, going Dutch, Dutch treat etc etc.

Back on topic, please.

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 08:41

There was a time in the planet's history when the magnetic north was in what we now call the south!

Geoff

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 15:36

It is of such "magnitide" that nobody knows the answer. Is there a clue in the way in which water goes down plugholes ? N S E W determined by compass, GPS etc makes no difference to me as I am always lost.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 15:44

Deputy. I must admit my sense of direction leaves a lot to be desired!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 15:48

After a skinful I always find myself going southward!



Richard

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 16:28

Re No 26: I used to travel on business to the southern hemisphere and I tested out this myth about water going down plugholes, like in a bath. The answer was that it can go clockwise or anti-clock anywhere on the planet, depending SOLEY on the thread of the connector joint. Reverse the thread, and the water goes out the other way.



Geoff

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 17:24

Irony of Ironies, I used to go out with a lovely Dutch lady and she never went as herself.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 17:28

I would hate to see the water going down the plughole the wrong way!!!

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
13/12/2010 18:14

Geoff. Presumably that works that way for urinals as well for those who can manage to hit it ? And there was me wondering if the acidity of beer was a factor. Learn every day but getting increasingly more difficult to remember what I have been taught. Quarmby. Behave yourself please. It is not just baths which have plugholes !