["CULTURAL CRIME..."] Brits 're-use' medieval stones to build a road!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 16:39

When you realise that vast amounts of medieval stone and building material ("old stones") were plundered from Famagusta to build Alexandria and the Suez Canal in Egypt... Then you may think it was the only 'cultural crime' during the British Colonial Rule (1878-1960) - but it wasn't. It happened only a century ago elsewhere in Cyprus also. Of the famous Crusader castle of Sigouri, hardly the outlines of its walls and moat survived. The last fragments of its masonry were removed... to repair the high road in its vincinity and build some bridges in that road. The Brits only had the bright idea and supervised it, convicts did the hard labour...

Unknowingly you may have past the last remains of Sigouri Castle one day on your way to the border crossing of Beyarmudu (Pile).

This spring it's worth to stop there for an hour or so and look around where once heavy fighting took place...

Map (and informative text via links above the map): ▶ [ http://is.gd/jyGKM ].

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:01

DC surely you are not serious? while it may be a "shame" now it was a sensible thing to do in those times, the same has happened everywhere.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:10

Pugwash, next time I'll write 'tongue in cheek' above my posts...

However.

"They" saw things different from us a century ago - but some already knew exactly what was destroyed for ever.

The great Cyprus expert Camille Enlart (†) wrote in 1899: "The present government of Cyprus has been guilty of a gross act of vandalism although with the laudable intention of creating a good road and some bridges; the stones from the ruins of Sigouri have been removed practically to the very last one for these purposes. This is the less excusable since there is plenty of stone in the neighbourhood and since labour is cheap, particularly for the government which employs convicts on public works."

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:17

I agree I wish it had not happened too, but look in history how many times all over the world this has happened, if only they could look forward, but alas.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:21

Small quiz for the readers of this thread: What is left of the huge Royal (Lusignan) Palace in Nicosia, what is it and where is it exhibited?

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:32

It has happened time and time again, that a Country that wins a victory\conquers a City when playing away, tends to destroy whatever was there, to remind the locals of the power the conquers have.

Its a dont do it again phylosophy, and in general it seems to work, examples of this could include the Russians forcing back the Germans in the second world war and destroying everything in their path to Berlin. The British and French armies entering Peking back in the 1860s, and destroying everyting.

There are many, many more.

Is it right?

For the conquerers yes of course, for the historian 100 years later, no.

Michael

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:48

RE msg 6, CJtill: I respect your point of view, but I don't agree. What happened in Cyprus during the British Colonial Rule had nothing to do with war or reminding the locals of the British power. It was simply 1900 and people didn't think the way we (should) do now.

Furthermore the Brits only did what the locals (Cypriot Turks and Greek speaking Cypriots) have been doing for many centuries and all over the island: just take the stones where you find them and re-use them! Easy quarrying!

And before any misunderstanding arises: that's why I wrote cultural crime as "Cultural crime" in the subject title.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 17:51

Anyone interested in the answer for my 'mini-quiz' in message 5?

greenman


Joined: 16/02/2008
Posts: 526

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 18:06

Of the famous Lusignan Palace only one vaulted hall has survived, known today as Kasteliotissa. This mansion and its gothic elements were a part of the Lusignan Palace which was built at the turn of 13th and 14th century. The mansion, in Nicosia, has been restored lately and serves as a Cultural Centre in which various events take place.

darrener2


Joined: 30/12/2008
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 18:22

The exceptionally beautiful gothic window currently being exhibited at the Lapidary Museum.

D2

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 18:35

RE msg 9, greenman: Castelliotissa: most probably the medieval "Monastery of Santa Clara" (women). Close to the Royal (Lusignan) Palace, but not part of it.

Location here: ▶ [ http://www.allcrusades.com/CASTLES/CYPRUS/NICOSIA/MAPS/map_nicosia_enlart_SW.html ].



RE msg 10, darrener 2: Welcome back! And of course you are right again!

Location of the Palace (assumed): ▶ [ http://www.allcrusades.com/CASTLES/CYPRUS/NICOSIA/MAPS/map_nicosia_enlart_SW.html ].

The window: ▶ [ http://www.allcrusades.com/CASTLES/CYPRUS/NICOSIA/PHOTOBOOK/lapidary_museum_inside/pictures/s3501222b.jpg.html ].

The Lapidar Museum: ▶ [ http://www.allcrusades.com/CASTLES/CYPRUS/NICOSIA/TEXT/lapidary_museum/lapidary_museum_txt_1.html ].

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
03/01/2011 18:45

Lapidar = Lapidary. Sorry, typo.

MartinM


Joined: 03/10/2009
Posts: 166

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 11:38

As far as I'm aware, a little closer to home, the Brits buried Roman Marble columns into the pavement around Kyrenia harbour so that ships could tie up to them. Also from the castle end of the harbour to the "inner lighthouse" a walkway was constructed with more columns but of yellow stone.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 12:14

RE msg 13, MartinM:

▶ http://www.allcrusades.com/CASTLES/CYPRUS/KYRENIA/PHO_PIC_WEB/Girne-Kyrenia-town/pictures/s3500171.html

▶ http://www.allcrusades.com/CASTLES/CYPRUS/KYRENIA/PHO_PIC_WEB/Girne-Kyrenia-town/pictures/s3500170.html

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 12:26

I didn't intend to insult my British friends, so let's put it all into perspective.

1: The Brits used stones etc (see above).

2: The Ottoman Turks used materials from Salamis. Example: see the fountains in Famagusta (all built with a Roman, marble sarcophagus, marble lintels etc).

3: The Venetians 'borrowed' from Salamis also. Prime example: Famagusta. The granite columns (Residency of the Venetian Governor, the two granite columns where Bragadino died, flayed alive).

4: The Lusignans 'borrowed' from Salamis. Examples in many of their churches.

5: The Byzantines built with material from Salamis also. Kyrenia Castle, the remains of the Byzantine fortress.

Etc, etc. They are all guilty...

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 14:48

thank God the British have done something....if we left it to the dutch nothing would get done,,have you heard they have been trying to build a metro for years in Amsterdam ...in the sand sea and silt

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 15:01

1: There we go again. Nothing to say, but hijack the thread and write he shall. Sad attitude.

2: Amsterdam has a metro sinds 1970. Indeed: in the sand, mud and other soft stuff. But why would you check the facts, eh?

▶ [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Metro ].

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 19:49

sorry I meant to say trying to complete the metro

gromit


Joined: 28/10/2010
Posts: 75

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 20:43

Hans



Your header and 1st post did accuse 'Brits' of cultural crime.



You ony included 'other' National criminals in later posts.



It was only by post 15 you apologised for singling out the 'Brits'.



Poor show my man!

Denny


Joined: 09/12/2010
Posts: 261

Message Posted:
04/01/2011 23:19

Every coloniser of Cyprus has exploited the island for their own ends with the natives quite far down in the list of priorities. The Turks are just the most recent. But even a cursory look around will show the system of central and local government and huge improvements to infrastructure and water systems carried out by the British up until they pulled out in 1960.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
05/01/2011 09:26

RE msg 19, gromit: Next time I'll include 10,000 years of Cyprus' history in one post.

P.S. In the mean time you may check your profile and remove the lies.

▶ [ http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/show-member.asp?member=gromit ].

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 19:56

It seems to me re-cycling at it's best!! What else were they supposed to use...that was cheap and got the job done...?







DD

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 20:17

RE msg 22: (...) What else were they supposed to use...that was cheap and got the job done...? (...)

▶ FROM MESSAGE 3 IN THIS THREAD: "... This is the less excusable since there is plenty of stone in the neighbourhood ..."

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 20:25

hmmm....SO HE SAYS.....maybe he was paid to say that!





DD

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 20:38

RE msg 24: The late Mr Enlart, the greatest expert on Cyprus (Gothic & Renaissance) the world has known, need not be defended here. So about your remark: Evil doers are evil dreaders.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 20:55

As much as I admire your attempts to remind us of this countries heritage, I am afraid that you have reached the point that you would rather drown us in what you believe to be the correct course of action than to allow us to follow our own beliefs.



You stick to ruining the planet in order to save a lost civilization if you wish, I personally prefer to utilize what has already been raped from nature by our ancestors and reuse it to help build our future, instead of wallowing in the past, perhaps we should praise our ancestors for their forward thinking!



Also, who says this Mr Enlart is the worlds greatest expert on Cyprus anyway??





DD

rocky


Joined: 17/10/2007
Posts: 1749

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 21:05

I guess the Dutch use the suez canal for imports and exports so they too benefit from the brilliant engineering of the suez canal .Just coz the dutch wear wooden clogs they think they can walk on water and be superior

If I wish to educate myself on history I would read appropriate refernence books not this thread.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 21:09

i think its most un fair people calling Dutch "Cloggy"



surely he can't be that bad - can he ??

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 21:12

RE msg 26: (...) I personally prefer to utilize what has already been raped from nature by our ancestors and reuse it to help build our future (...)

▶ Shall we start tearing down the Tower of London to help build a new road to Manchester with these "old stones"?

P.S. I'm no longer interested in your efforts to revive this thread. The last word is yours - as usual.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 21:29

I am sorry to say that I believe you are below your normal par for a debate, you have obviously not got all your ducks in a row today, why not get some old bread sit down and feed them and contemplate the fact that writing that a national monument should be destroyed in order to repair roads to Manchester is an equal statement to what is happening here is anywhere close to sensible.



As it happens, if I believed that knocking down the Tower of London would help in anyway avoid the destruction of the planet then I would definitely agree to it, but then if we were to truly allow nature to take its course, Holland would have been flooded by now.





DD











If the Tower of London could help build a bridge to Mars or to any planet that may help the human race ...then i would give a resounding YES!!

Jetski


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 584

Message Posted:
11/01/2011 23:33

Dutch.... to those living within their own cultural history it is not 'history' if you haven't the education to understand it, value it and use it to your advantage. We see this everywhere here. Unless there is a penny to be made from it, it is worthless. I weep for the lost heritage and lost knowledge that this wonderful island has sacrificed in the pursuit of a few shekels.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/01/2011 08:41

RE msg 31, Jetski: (...) to those living within their own cultural history it is not 'history' if you haven't the education to understand it, value it and use it to your advantage. etc (...)

▶ Jetski, I wish I had written it the way you did. To whom it may concern.

Unfortunately this board has become a pool of uneducated people and sharks. It's time to look for greener pastures when ignorant people in a thread like this start writing about 'the Dutch and the Suez Canal" or question the integrity and fame of Mr Enlart. I know from reactions there are a lot of C44 members who appreciate to read and maybe learn something about Cyprus - I'll try to find another way of communicating with them. C44 is now the place for the "Ha ha, how funny" brigade. I don't feel comfortable in their company. Well, so be it.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
12/01/2011 10:49

You really do have a very high opinion of yourself and a very low opinion of the members of this board.



Have you ever stopped to consider that they may just not be interested in what you continuously post about and have interests of thier own that they prefer to persue? you can not refer to members as uneducated people and sharks just for that.



I really can not understand your attitude of late you have always been up yourself but lately you seem to go out of your way to agravate people and insult the forum members, there has been no other member of this forum that has gotten away with as much insulting behaviour as you without getting banned.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/01/2011 11:08

RE msg 33, TheSaints: Whatever you say, Mike. Here or elsewhere. :-;

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
12/01/2011 11:25

as expected a short and imature reponse which fits perfectly within your pattern of behaviour when someone shows that they can debate at your level or makes a factual statement you personally do not like for example see your p.s. on msg 29 that is only one of many that is an example of this trait and that is said on here not elswhere.



i

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
12/01/2011 13:55

I quite enjoy some of these spicy debates, and this one is no exception. But I have to say, TheSaints, that unless you can make better use of your punctuation, spelling and grammar checker in order to make your posts readable, I find it a bit too difficult trying to decipher your replies.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
12/01/2011 14:22

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread went off topic.