Egypt - The real problem

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 13:35

I find it imcredible that the people of Egypt are calling for the president and his government to resign, there is over 100 peolpe killed with over 2000 injured and all the west can master is a call for the president to enact reforms. Such a shame that the west is in bed with these crooks all over the middle east and the rest of the world. We will pay the price for it though.

Watch the oil price shoot up as the trouble nears the oil fields.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 15:18

msge 2



Why would they not want the President to resign? In a poll 2 years ago 85% of Egyptians said they were unhappy with the way their country was run. They are sick and tired of the Presidents dynasty and are now feeling the pinch from price rises etc.



I am curious that you are looking for a response from the West. Why don't you ask why China is not doing anything? What do you expect the West to do?



What can the West do? The US cant cant win. It gets criticised for intervening and gets criticised for not intervening. It has no stomach or money for any military intervention.



http://www.usdebtclock.org/



It would love Egypt to be a democracy, but it has settled for an autocratic ruler who up to now has kept an uneasy peace. All the West can do is wait for the dust to settle and see what emerges from the rubble. Hopefully the Islamist brotherhood does not get in to power.



Kuwait is now paying their people £3000 a month extra for 18 months, so that they don't riot d

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 17:06

Not "the" but stil "a" real problem: The Dutch Government has advised 3000 Dutch holidaymakers in Egypt to leave the country immediately. Planes are ready to pick them up from now on. (Source: Dutch radio, Sunday, 30 January 2011, 5 pm TRNC time).

The US Government issued the same advise to US citizens.

Tourism in Egypt will be hurt for a long time.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 17:08

Tunesia..., Egypt..., Syria..?

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 18:03

ilovecyprus,

are you serious? Why USA or the west you say?

Perhaps the reason could be that they decided who the last two were and will decide the next one too. You really ought to get out a bit more to see what the west is doing to the rest of the world.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 18:08

Yfred.....make your mind up.....do you want the "west" to just muster a call for the Egyptian president to enact reforms, or do you want them to intervene by continuing their promotion of democracy by force in the Middle East?



You can't have it both ways.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 18:19

neither, just leave them alone, and they can sort their own problems out, but unfortunately they have supported this president from the first and have used him well since. He has been doing their torture for them very nicely.

I have no doubt that the next one will also be their man especially if he is another general like the last one.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
30/01/2011 18:28

Apparently, there has been no burning of American or British flags. Egyptians are not campaigning against Western governments. It's an internal matter.

Same can be said about Tunisia.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 13:15

ilovcyprus



Agree with Yfred, where the hell have you been the last 50 years. Nothing to do with us? . We put or kept most of these tyrants in power. Saddam our friend fully supported after his coup, -we couldnt care less how many people he tortured or killed, until he invaded Kuwait and threatened our oil supplies. The Shah of Iran ,another evil man we put in power after destroying democratic movements that thought BP shouldnt decide how a country should be run. Mugabe ,given a knighthood ,no problem with the Matebeleland massacres! but when he turned his attention to the white farmers ,a tyrant.

Dont even get me started on USA and latin america ,didnt like democracy there did they,



And you wonder why western media are being assaulted in Cairo. Its because the ordinary people rioting know as they do in middle east ,Africa , exactly our part in keeping them oppressed.

Mind you if Egypt goes will need to find another 'friend' that will torture people on our behalf.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 14:00

RE msg 9, girne_29: (...) Its because the ordinary people rioting know as they do in middle east ,Africa , exactly our part in keeping them oppressed. (...)

▶ As far as I know: Arabs and neighbouring populations have always been oppressed - from the days of the Prophet (May he rest in peace) and before him.

▶ In their long history Arabs and neighbouring populations have only been (forcibly) united by the Prophet (May he rest in peace) and Saladin. Both with religious/military aims. Northern Africa, the Levant and the Middle East have never known democracy - it's rather unfair to blame "the West" for all the problems there. Although I admit that "the West" is not without guilt.

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 14:03

DC when you say "Prophet" you say pbuh, "Peace be upon him"

greenman


Joined: 16/02/2008
Posts: 526

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 14:09

It's not the mention of the word prophet that you add pbuh, but after the prophets name.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 14:12

RE msg 5, YFred: (...) Perhaps the reason could be that they decided who the last two were and will decide the next one too. You really ought to get out a bit more to see what the west is doing to the rest of the world. (...)

▶ YFred, you seem to know very little of internal Egyptian affairs. Since the independency of Egypt the country has been run by about 15.000 military men in the background. They decide who to support as "President". It's a very unstable bunch: Nasser depended on them (for support) when they looked towards the USSR (for support). Under Mubarak the real masters of Egypt looked for support from the USA.

And about the population of Egypt (still quite a lot of illiterate people!): any idea about the percentage that voted for Mubarak's political party? The voters got what they voted for.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 14:14

Prophet: I hope he may rest in the peace the world is still waiting for.

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 14:19

And i suspect will keep waiting for sadly.

yrys88


Joined: 08/08/2009
Posts: 1140

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 17:16

I can see the obvious!

Israel is Americas greatest ally! Egypt is at Israels back door. So if someone wanted to invade by land, Egypt would be the way in, thanks to its flat desert surface. No wonder Israel have just approved to build a wall on the border.

America promised Egypts military hardware and financial support as long as they obeyed them, this is why Egypt ( after America) has the largest number of M1A1 Abraham Tanks in their arsenal. By the way these tanks are no Toy! They are high tech killing machines, especially good for flat desert land ;) Egypt has 1,005 M1A1 by the way! Saudi is 3rd in the list with 315 which is also close in relations to USA.

USA just wants to keep its dominance it gained after USSR's collapse ( naturally ). Who can blame them , right??

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 17:41

DC,

So you don't think CIA had any influence on what Mubarak has done in the last 30 years then?



You is a joker my friend. US is like the worst mafia set up. You can take the chief out and there is always another one ready to take his place. Have no doubt that who ever gets it will be the next US poodle. My guess is it will be another general and he will hold elections and he will win by a landslide. It's called Bushist democracy.

You are either for me or against me. get it?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 18:02

msge 17



'It's called Bushist democracy. You are either for me or against me, get it'



Don't you think you are just as guilty. Is your thinking not the same as Bush. You are either against the US or you are against me? You have already stated on another thread that you were happy to see Americans die at 9/11.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 18:58

RE msg 17, YFred: (...) It's called Bushist democracy. (...)

▶ Some 25 odd years ago I already preferred American domination in Europe compared to USSR freedom. At the moment I prefer Bushist democracy compared to sharia freedom.

P.S. You may call me a joker - if I may call you fanatical and blind with hatred.

MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 19:44

People always get restless when money gets tight, and prices go up.



I don't think Mubarak is that bad - he has lead Egypt through 30 years of peace and rising prosperity (until recent global inflation)



I'm not saying he's perfect, but then look at the two bozos who took us to war in Irag and Afghanistan...

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 20:46

Re 19,



Spot on, DC! Very well said.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 22:41

DC get a hold of reality, me fanatical? you are certainly a joker. Is there really any difference between Bushism and Sharia freedom. Explain that to the parents of a 14 year old who has been taken from Afghanistan to Gunantanamo without any hope of a trial for the last 10 years. Or better still ask the father who was holding his 10 year old son's hand walking down the valley with 40 members of his village one minute and just holding his hand in the next minute. Thanks to one the Yankee boys playing with his playstation. Get my meaning or shall I explain.

Sharia atrocities affect hardly anybody compared the what the yanks have caused starting from vietnam to Palastine in the last 50 years.

You call me a fanatic? Really I am not religious but I do read the Guardian every day whether I need to or not, religiously. Although I must admit that what opened my eyes to the world events was the socialist workers party in the mid 70s. Thankfully I have been eyes wide shut ever since.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 22:45

MarkVPizza, you have no idea how many this man has killed and tortured for CIA alone, never mind for his own benefit. Unfortunately crooks like him are allowed to get with it by those other supper crooks who are also poodle of US in Saudi.

But do not worry because they are all good friends with DutchCrusader's friends over in US.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 22:53

YFred, you're not only a fanatic but a scatterbrain also. Bye.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
31/01/2011 23:00

That's a fine retreat me old son.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 11:32

msge 25



I didn't notice you getting hot and bothered when Christian minorities were recently killed by Muslims in Egypt. Of course, I may have missed it and you could have posted your regret on another post?

yrys88


Joined: 08/08/2009
Posts: 1140

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 11:39

Message 19

Why would anyone in their right mind settle for such injustice. You prefer one dominance over the other??!

This is confusing to me! I thought democracy was all about equality and justice for the people? How does this make sense to you?

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 11:44

1] The army is tacitly supporting the protestors, which tells you how serious the position is for the current regime.

2] How many of the protagonists on this thread have actually seen the poverty that is to be found in parts of Egypt and are qualified to side with anyone in that country?

MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 12:05

Remember the old saying, "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"



Egypt needs to think who the replacement would be - not so easy in the heat of the moment

yrys88


Joined: 08/08/2009
Posts: 1140

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 12:12

MSG 20

So the people are just giving their lives away for lower gas prices????

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 12:12

msge 29



Good point.



The people are very clear about what they do want which is to have the President out. In the interviews it seems that the people are split between a democratic and an Islamist system. Lets hope this does not develop in to a civil war. It's not easy to jump from one system to another. There needs to be a period of transition.

MarkVPiazza


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 530

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 12:18

ILC



Absolutely



The last thing anyone wants is a situation like Iraq , with massive casualties and daily terror on the streets

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 14:04

Msg 26

I did not comment on that. That does not mean I don't condemn it. But there is a huge difference of a few people killing a few people and the most powerful government on earth conspiring to kidnap its opponents and use satellite states to torture and murder them or even torture them themselves by finding a loop hole in their own laws. One is the act of criminals behaving criminally, the other is a government legalising criminality. Sure you cannot accept that as being normal.

Are they the same in enormity? and how it affects the rest of the world?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 14:43

msge 33



Please to hear that you don't condemn it



I am well aware of the US and Britains previous poor behaviour. I have read Pilger and seen films like 'Innocent voices' etc, however I don't know of any empire who has acted benevolently. There is no precedent in history, no country/empire has ever had the power that the US has. (perhaps had)



As an African friend reminds me, she is sure that if her own people were in power, and had the same, they would have acted the same way as the US and Britain. All human beings are capable of great destruction, not least when they are trying to win their own security and can dominate. This is the world we live in at the moment and for some time yet - Real Politik



But the past does not equal the future. I defend the US and Britain because humans are on an upward trajectory from bad to better to good. The US is not the same country it was 30 years ago. How do I know this? It has voted in a black president with a Muslim name.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 14:45

Britain made many mistakes in its past, it acted poorly but it created institutions (education) that enabled higher level values to emerge (values such as human dignity, interdependence). If you forever hold Britain (and the US) accountable for its past mistakes in the world then you are making a fatal mistake. You are missing the bigger emergent picture. Lower level values (like security, greed) eventually give way to higher level values (if we don’t blow ourselves up first), but higher values can only be built from well developed and integrated lower level values.

You are wrong to stereotype the US. Yes, It has many people who display lower levels of greed and insecurity (but every country on the planet displays these traits too), however there are many people who are evolving to better values. Wikileaks has demonstrated some of the restraint that the US is now showing, but is not easy to couple such polarised values as security and dignity. We all personally know this

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 14:52

msge 34



I meant to say, please you did not condone it - apologies

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 15:47

I would be interested to find out from people how they think the West should respond to the Egyptian crisis.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 16:12

Will the world be a better place without Mubarak? The truly tyrannical regimes like those of Libya and Syria are and will remain exempt from street violence (yeah, blame the West again) …It is too soon to tell. The only thing I am sure of is that any power vacuum will be filled by those who are the most organised and powerful.



The citizens of the Arab world have a choice between a bad guy and a worse guy, or between the military/religiuos (supported autocracy) and (Muslims Brotherhood like) islamists. Democracy is not on the shelf of every supermarket over there. And not because of deficit in supply but merely because there is no demand for it yet.

This is not a democratic revolution because there is no a democratic elite (please show me the Egyptian Lech Walensa) , or any middle class representation there to steer the people in that direction.

Pugwash


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 1797

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 16:17

ilove cyprus what exactly did you mean by this?





" It has voted in a black president with a Muslim name."

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 16:28

msge 39



What do you think I mean?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 16:33

msge 38



I found that a very interesting post

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
01/02/2011 16:45

RE msg 40, ilovecyprus: (...) msge 39. What do you think I mean? (...)

▶ High quality British humour!

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
03/02/2011 09:37

YFred, did you really say you were happy to see Americans die at 9/11?