An excellent article that is well worth a read

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 18:38

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parliamentarybrief.com%2F2010%2F03%2Fbritains-duty-if-no-deal-in-cyprus&ei=KH1qTZv8C4eXhQfurZHyDg&usg=AFQjCNHqs6V6ykkCew9gvvuv9MSoIlF-Ow

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 18:50

Finally, an article which speaks the truth about the history here. I never doubted that there was a genocide here.



I am glad that the young people of both sides appear to favour a two-state solution.



Any solution which is not on gc terms will probably work, and the peoples here deserve the chance to compete/join into the rest of the world.



I am sure that they are all sick to death of the embargoes and the isolation. They do not deserve it!

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 18:54

Newlad this is excellent in that it contains independent sources of accounts. I do hope that this adds to the weight of argument against the simple suggestion that "Turkey should withdraw". Yes, there are issues with the running of TRNC but I get the sense from more recent reports that the GC perspective has not changed one iota. So far I have not found a single source of information with a GC perspective that states "Yes, we did wrong, we thought we almost had it all".

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 18:59

Despite this article being a year old, it's still relevant today



Good link Paul.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:09

Yes a good article and very relevant however....



more than a year on and nothing has changed

yenibob


Joined: 13/10/2010
Posts: 1203

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:13

We all love articles that agree with our point of view!

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:16

Msg.6 might need a little more explanation.

PaulW



Joined: 20/07/2009
Posts: 651

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:18

I agree with Turtle. How many good articles have we read, but nothing ever changes, sad but true. It suits politicans for the situation to remain, otherwise something would have been done years ago.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:40

Not much has changed partly due to how effectively one side puts its case forward. Articles like this should inform all those who have a confused or wrong impression of what went on before 1974. More importantly it should help more people voice at least a doubt about pursuing a belief that it is as simply as "giving it all back". What they should perhaps realise is that by facilitating only the GC argument in places like the EU they are helping the gradual demise of a unique group of people with a unique culture and language.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:46

Now i quote Cyprus today. headline 40 more years of peace talks. the TRNC President special rep has said peace talks in Cyprus could continue for a further 40 years unless an international conference is held.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 19:52

Lilli, I remember someone saying that the talks have become a simple game. It may now be a simple case of trying to see if the opponent backs away from an apparent solution - just to apportion blame.

If the "prize" of EU membership wasn't coveted so much it may have been a lot simpler.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:02

Martins Packard quote:

In general, the Greek Cypriots felt that they had been provoked by the Turkish Cypriots beyond any natural degree of endurance. In almost every case of violence reported to me from the rural areas during January, Turkish Cypriots were the victims and Greek Cypriots the aggressors. Nevertheless, attacks hardly ever reflected a general ethnic animosity: almost all were consistent with the settling of old scores or with an attempt, which the police perceived as legally justified, whether or not formally sanctioned, to eliminate the power of TMT. In a few isolated cases, Turkish Cypriots were subjected to local outbursts of violence, at a moment when normal constraints had collapsed: in no way that I had seen, however, were they ever the victims of genocidal or general attack.



newlad did you buy the book . ?

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:06

Msg.12 Re: "...in no way that I had seen, however, were they ever the victims of genocidal or general attack."



But there are such cases where it would be difficult to assume otherwise.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:06

Good link to this article, its a shame someone cannot get it into the British press, and make it headlines in a major newspaper.



Its as a lot of us know, and the NCs were badly let down by GB when the genocide's took place in the 6os....



I remember my mother saying in the early fifties that Makarious was evil.... being a small child I didn't realise the horrible brutal murders that went on, my mother would have her ear glued to the radio saying that why doesn't our prime minister do something, think if she had her way she would have been over there and fighting off the Greeks,......

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:23

Dizzy none respectful newspaper would ever published such an article .



because they know now that the "genocide" stories was just pure Denktash propaganda .

killings, yes Murders yes , looting yes "GENOCIDE" NO

QUOTE:

I received numerous reports of involvement by Greek Cypriot policemen in hostage-taking and summary killings. No suggestion that this was happening was given by any Greek source either to the Greek Cypriot public or to their moderate leaders. I was once shown a digest of police reports delivered to Makarios, covering events of which I had personal knowledge, in which every incident had been either whitewashed or reversed so as to show the Turkish Cypriots as the instigators of violence. Similarly, Kutchuk showed me reports he had received from Turkish Cypriot villages for which I had responsibility that gave a wholly exaggerated or distorted picture of events, suggesting a massive persecution by the Greek Cypriots that had never in fact occurred.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:25

Hi all,



Surely the next step should be to get articles such as this out to the masses,so that millions instead

of thousands are able to read and digest the other side of the story.The side that,unfortunateley,still

seems to get swept under the carpet.The people of Northern Cyprus deserve a fair bite of the

cherry.Britain as a guarantor nation,need to stop standing in the shadows,and stand up and be

counted.I realise that the article was first aired in March 2010.But it is still as relevant today,as it

was then,

Paul.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:29

Msg.15: I'm happy if we just get the killings and murders highlighted. So far the GCs are painting a one-sided picture.

Like I stated in earlier posts, it cannot be portrayed as an unprovoked reaction by Turkey.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:41

Tracer,



Re-mess 12,its on order,

Paul.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 20:56

Msg.18 Amazon shows 13-16 quid. I will bring a copy to read when I'm over in May. But then again I'm supposed to be resting my mind.



Anyone else read The Road to Bellapais?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 21:08

Tracer (or whoever you are ?)



I am halfway through the book and must say my understanding of what is written differs greatly with yours.

greenman


Joined: 16/02/2008
Posts: 526

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 21:19

Message 16: Why not post the link to a features writer at your favourite newspaper - I've just posted it to Littlejohn at the Daily Mail (did I say favourite ??)

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 21:30

TURTLE when you finish reading we can comment about it .

but you must read with no bias

how do you no my understanding I am only quoting from the book .

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 21:49

You are correct Tracer lets wait til Ive finished but in the meantime please try to quote the book without any bias ?

You have quoted several times but allways with bias.

Don't forget to tell the members that Mr Packard can speak Greek and heard things in coffee shops that he wasn't meant to hear ?

malsancak


Joined: 23/08/2009
Posts: 2874

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 21:58

Tracer I think genocide is inferred in this part of the parliamentary briefing "in his memoirs, the US Under Secretary of State, George Ball, said that the Greek Cypriot leader’s central interest was to block off Turkish intervention so that he and his Greek Cypriots could go on happily massacring Turkish Cypriots." Looks like not only Denktas thought the systematic killing of a racial or cultural group was taking place, i.e. genocide.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
27/02/2011 22:15

tracer message 15:



whatever the rights and wrongs of the cyprus dispute,

it was the 1974 coup d'etat that would have been the prelude

...to wholesale ethnic cleansing or call it what you will



think bosnia

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 08:28

Mal msg 24



dont mention "Mr" Ball cause what he said to Packard is the title of the book you GOT IT ALL WRONG MY SON

NOBODY TELLS YOU THAT IS PARTITION WE WONT.



MSG 23 Turtle just check all other posts at every occasion i post wrong and doings from both sides .

i had posted the tc killings in Livera (family of 7) by gc also the mora incident (TMT hiding food from tcs)

and many more ........and what is your point about Packard speaking greek ........that he was biased





Things was done bad things and the book is taking no sides .

and for your information i believe every single line from this book .

and i blame Gc much more than the tcs because their actions push tcs to Turkey.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 14:29

message 26:



so that's all clear then

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 15:22

I have used many of the reports cited in this article, on many forums. The GC's say they are lies and written by Turkey or Turkish sympathisers as propaganda. Are those who wrote them dead, if not why are they not shouting from the rooftops that the GC's are a bunch of racist liars? Do any of the politicians of the EU or the international community bother themselves with such trivia as research to fine the truth? Do they bother to do any background search at all before shouting their mouths off? NO, I THOUGHT NOT.

We have just witnessed a group of UK politicians arrive in the south to enlighten them selves on the Cyrus problem.

Did they come to the TRNC? NO, I THOUGHT NOT.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 20:30

Troodo are we serious now .............by Michael Stephen

This isn't about what the British think but what Michael Stephens thinks.Well known professional Turkish propagandist

He is part of the 'Friends of Turkey' group.

If we are going to listen to what Michael Stephens wrote in March 2nd, 2010 on what he thinks what the British Government thinks of the Cyprus situation, then I think it is only fair that we also listen to what the actual British Government's thinking's are, which were made during the Westminster Hall debates on 16 November 2010.

check that out





http://www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2010-11-16a.212.0

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 20:40

Re-mess 29,



Appreciate the link Tracer,

Paul.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 20:41

Tracer just beat me to the punch. This man Stephen is not only an ex-Tory MP but a lobbyist and propagandist for Turkey.



Pay him enough and he'll say whatever you want to hear. Who's the turkeys now?

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
28/02/2011 21:07

Tracer;

I need to enlighten you about PROPAGANDA and Friends of Turkey

To start with, there is nothing wrong with propaganda, something widely used by anyone who wish to air their views based on facts! They are meant to inform those, who might not have/know full details about an issue. Propaganda machines are usually run by people who believe in a cause of their own. What is facts for one person can be "propaganda" for another, depending on the source. By description, "propaganda" is not and should not be based on lies (although much of the propaganda in USA by Greek and Armenian lobbyists had always been based on lies!)

As for friends of anyone, UK and the rest of Europe had always been "friends of Greeks and GCs". In a GC forum, every time I quote a "historic fact" giving dates, names of places, as well as the media who quoted it. The best line of defence by GCs always is "the person who quoted those is a Turk friend". Not whether the events quoted are actually true or not!

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 08:21

come on bigoz is this called PROPAGANDA :



Cyprus was a Turkish island until leased by Britain in 1878 and annexed unilaterally by Britain in 1914. Britain allowed large numbers of Greeks to settle in the island



Only thing to do for this crap is to laugh .



anybody with a small sense of humor and little common sense he will laugh .



Ask the masters about propaganda denktash and Giorgatjis both of them destroy this country for their ambitions.

not caring a pit for their people .

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 08:48

tracer: So, you deny the existence and actions of 'Akritas Plan' and the aims [Enosis/annihilation of the TC's]of those involved in it, Makarios, Kyrianou, Clerides, Papadopolous, Grivas, EOKA 'B', etc.?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 10:16

Turks were first brought to Cyprus by the British as cheap labour - anybody with a small sense of humor and little common sense he will laugh .

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 10:25

It was also suggested to me, by a GC, that the Akritas Plan was a fiction of Turkish properganda - is this what they teach in their schools - no, I supose not, to them history starts in 1974.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 10:31

Tracer, are you sugesting that all the reports cited in the artical are lies?

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 12:32

Here we go again. It didn't take too long before certain statements are tantamount to saying "nope, nothing happened".

Flippin heck! I was there, I was a badly sick baby that was carried across the barbed wire to hospital by my dad during a curfew. A curfew that was there by the British forces to stop EOKA killing people. I also saw what happened to that woman and her children in the bath at their home by the river.

megous00


Joined: 01/03/2011
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 12:45

Posting deleted due to spamming and an infected link.

AJ

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 12:52

megous00/Msg 39:



What does this have to do with the price of fish?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 12:52

Msg 39.

Pardon?

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 12:59

brother please dont bother at all WOMAN AND CHILDREN IN THE BATH come on a least this event was admitted by the old mighty Dektash that it was propaganda .and much more .



Troodo we already know the truth and the propaganda.



And also Tpapa who was quote :With the Turkish Cypriots I dealt in Nicosia directly with the office of Vice-President Fazil Kutchuk or through the estimable Nihat Bey, formerly a District Administration Officer. He was wise, moderate, supportive and provided an excellent link to the Turkish Cypriot leadership. With the Greek Cypriot political sector I worked almost entirely with or through Tassos Papadopoulos, then a youthful holder of three separate ministries6, whose critical commitment to communal re-engagement made the process possible. He was adamant that a failure by the central government to deliver an adequate security to the Turkish Cypriots would be catastrophic for both communities.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:01

Msg 39 just slightly ..................off Topic

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:04

For those who doubt Tpapa

Quote:

He provided me with access to Makarios and to other members of the government whenever that was needed; he helped to defuse incidents reported by me that could have led to serious violence; all the patrol's efforts to resolve the needs and problems of the Turkish Cypriote were backed by him. My unit went on to act as executor for secret efforts, spearheaded by him, to channel public works projects towards the Turkish Cypriots, in a specific drive for economic equalization.

Papadopoulos also gave me introductions to those personalities, usually unapproachable by outsiders, who wielded real power at local level. Although suspicious of his EOKA7 antecedents, Turkish Cypriot leaders with whom I worked saw him as pragmatic, intelligent and fair. This was a time when the Turkish General Staff was not yet generally seen as a crucial arbiter in Cypriot affairs and when the shutters had not yet come down along lines of communal division.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:05

cont:

Dr Kutchuk told me that he regarded Papadopoulos as central to hopes for an effective communal re-engagement, and he suggested that his EOKA background would help him in any negotiations.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:07

Tracer, all you GC's eventually show your true colours, given enough prods – thank you.

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:09

Quote:

Nor had anything prepared me for the degree to which each community was misinformed about the other and about the reality of events. The populace in the rural areas received its information either through a rabidly propagandist media, through politicised networks or through a process of coffee-house gossip, and central leadership was not much better served. Even the top 'Organisation' leaders were being grossly misinformed by their subordinates and by their own intelligence service, which contributed in large measure to the failure of elected communal leaderships to establish a reasonable discipline. No voice of moderation, either from politicians or press, made itself heard. Elements in each community regarded as traitorous any gainsaying of the nationalistic line.



Nice of you Troodo

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:24

Tracer, I do not think the TC's were in the mood to hang around having a chat while you lot were killing them.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 13:34

tracer: it all looks rather odd doesn't it? No matter what the TC's account is the GC response is a dismissal on the grounds of illusory perspective. At the risk of descending into childish "you started it" bawling I must remind you that at the very beginning of the "troubles", regardless of the account you offer on their integrity, it was the EOKA misinformation that caused British off-duty soldiers to be shot - in the back - whilst they were holding their child's hand. Spare me the "you are confused" patronising lecture. To this day, your priests dole out the same old poison to "maintain the struggle". After all the years there is only one thing the GC community wants - everything. Your "nice" political EOKA folks poked the sleeping bear one time too many and now they want it to go away. Well, it's too late my friend, the island has been taken from both you and me - we don't have a say in the matter anymore.

Sundance


Joined: 15/07/2010
Posts: 213

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 14:07

Paul many thanks a very good read



sundance

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 15:01

MSG 46 Tracer, all you GC's eventually show your true colours, given enough prods – thank you.



OMG troodo you can see the ............................colors again ?

I though you was suffering from colorblindness so many years





msg 49

we don't have a say in the matter anymore. either the Egyptians lybians Bahrain Yemenis etc

watch it is coming your way soon .

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 15:20

tracer, I don't think you're reading these posts with both eyes open. Are you saying now that the murdered woman and her children in the bath never happened? Are you saying brother is lying when he says he saw what happened? The photo and its story have been widely reproduced for many years, one such account being in "The Cyprus Conspiracy", a book commissioned by the RoC government. It's after page 126, and is described as "this blood-stained bath in which these children of a Turkish officer were shot by Greek-Cypriot gunmen."



Your blase, off-handed dismissal of such references as "we already know the truth and the propaganda" are not impressive.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 15:44

msg.51 Re. "watch it is coming your way soon"



I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you as at the end of the day the alternative to the TCs is much worse. The GC priests have the youth stoked up and ready to go. Only recently the GC school-children demonstrated the hate they have been injected with at one of the schools.



Your nerve at denial of it all is amazing - some of the contributors on this forum will not let you have it your way.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 16:14

Let me get this right. There is nothing wrong with propaganda? Big Oz you know better than that.



"Propaganda = information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc. "



I beg to differ.

How about tell it like it is and people can make their own minds as to how good or bad it is. Remove the truthfulness out of a piece of news and you've got yourself propaganda.

Thanks but no thanks. We had enough of it in the 60s and 70s. Enough is enough already, as my Yankee friends say.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 16:22

Rottlover,

One question we must ask ourselves is how did the GCs find this family of an officer from Turkey? Who were very well protected. I don't believe it for one moment.

Another is could people who wished for Turkey to invade have done this and made it look like it was GCs.

These very very murky times and we have to look for all eventualities.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 16:25

Msg.32 Re. "...every time I quote a "historic fact" giving dates, names of places, as well as the media who quoted it. The best line of defence by GCs always is "the person who quoted those is a Turk friend". Not whether the events quoted are actually true or not!"



I would be interested to know what on earth they would say if we quoted documented UN incidents as listed in 'The Road To Bellapais'.

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 17:01

Tracer

You still haven't answered message 37.

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 20:28

Of course they could have, Fred, and there is no doubt that all sorts of dark and dreadful things were becoming the order of the day.



But the only question that counts, is....did they?

tracer


Joined: 02/06/2010
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 21:08

Rot msg 52

to admit what something that Dektash already admit ed long ago so cut the crap

And a tc said how they done that. In that sector not even a gc pigeon could not enter .



So i may read with one eye but how can you with both eyes closed .



msg 37 70% propaganda

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 22:16

Tracer, you obviously think like the Libyan President that all the witnesses and observers were on drugs or in the pay of Turkey - get a life.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
01/03/2011 23:41

So, it's a propaganda that one of the guarantors of the treaty (Greece) to keep Cyprus stable defaulted on the deal by supporting EOKA to overthrow Makarios. Oh, silly me, that never happened either.