EU report on the Cyprus issue

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2011 23:16

The European Parliament has unanimously adopted yesterday its 2010 Progress Report on Turkey at a plenary session held in Strasbourg. The Report which was drafted by Dutch Christian Democrat Ria Oomen-Ruijten recommends Turkey to start withdrawing its troops from Cyprus and thus to facilitate a suitable climate for the Cyprus negotiations process.

In a reaction to the resolution, Turkey’s Chief Negotiator for the EU Egemen Bağış said that it was not possible to accept recommendations made in the report.

“There are still some presuppositions and prejudices regarding the Cyprus issue” Bağış said.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2011 23:17

Stating that the report is not a binding document, he stressed that putting the blame on Turkey will not yield to any results.

Having criticized the EP for ignoring the realities on the island, the Chief Negotiator yet said that the report disappointed those who expected a “disaster scenario”.

He said “the EP has started to understand that time is on Turkey’s side”.

In its Cyprus paragraph, the progress report calls on Turkey and the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus to avoid the settlement of new Turkish citizens on the island, claiming that this will upset the demographic balance of the island and complicate the solution of the Cyprus problem.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/03/2011 23:18

The report also invites Turkey to intensify its support to the Committee on Missing Persons in its excavation works by allowing access to military areas in the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus.



It calls on the Turkish government and all parties concerned to actively support the ongoing negotiations in Cyprus and make concrete contributions towards a comprehensive settlement.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
11/03/2011 23:56

The European Parliament what a waste of money

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 11:47

And WHAT is wrong with withdrawing a sizeable chunk of TURKISH troops? ... Those of you who travel to the 'south' ...how many GREEK soldiers do you see ?

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 11:58

That's a good question, Marky.

As I understand it, it is more than there should be according to the constitution of the RoC.

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 12:06

European Parliament. I view the whole EU orgnisation as an ultra vires virus adversely affecting the millions who voted for a common market and now have legions of unaccountable mobsters filling their own pockets first and allocating wealth which does not exist, primarily to the undeserving so called members.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 12:14

It started out as The Common Market ,It is now the European Union,and is "Anything but Unified"...In my view it's "Dead in the Water and Stagnating Fast".

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 12:36

msg5mmmmmm,If you had travelled from Northern to Southern Ireland in the mid to late 60's how many IRA soldiers would you have seen?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 12:56

When the EU becomes a democracy I might take it seriously

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 13:16

re msg 6



Hi 'TRNC' - how many does the constitution permit ? .. In the meantime.. they must be VERY well hidden



re msg 9



We are talking visible front line troops in *Uniform* not former terrorist organisations !



I mean how many Jets, Helicopters do the Cypriot national guard have at their disposal? There' simply no NEED for such an overwhelming military presence from TR ..

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 13:37

mmmmmm,Even if turkey reduced the "Occupying" forces,to match that of the RoC National Guard,it would still be an Occupying Army,I don't see how the "Number of Soldiers" alters the EU's perception of whether or not the occupation is acceptable

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 14:01

re msg 12



It's all about TR's perceived willingness to be seen to be compromising ...it is TR that signed EU accords then didn't comply ...



The inverted commas aren't necessary by the way - from a recognised sovereign territory perspective how else would you describe the continued presence of a third nation's military ? !

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 14:09

Thanks Mark,I see what you mean...........

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 14:18

Hi Martin...



I get SO frustrated with this constant stalemate... When the GCs voted no to annan, if only TR had respected the wishes of TCs and done some of the things that they had voted for - to 'burst' the 'objections' of hard line GCs this would probably have been sorted...





TR would be in the EU and it would be only a matter of time before Cypriots / Turks could live / work where they like in either Turkey or Cyprus :(

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 14:45

does the TRNC have its own army and what are the number of troops, tanks, helicopters e.t.c .





thanks.



i thought the government here were borrowing 10 mill TL a month just to keep going !



if previous signed agreements had been kept to, may be the TR army would never have arrived here ! but its always easy to put the blame on others. best form of defense is to attack, attack and attack.



people still do not realize that the TRNC is a part of turkey ! The same as any other city in Turkey.



i agree that the Turks are crap at euro politics thus the state of affairs at the moment. though Turkey keeps



quiet it does not mean she is stupid.



here are some great politicians and world politics



http://www.sxolsout.org.uk/4.html



http://www.sxolsout.org.uk/p14.html



please select your own subject of interest from the list below. a UK site updated daily with the great politics and politicians of the current times.



http://www.sxolsout.org.uk/titlep.html

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 15:18

mmmmmm msg 5.

Maybe the Turkish Cypriot's don't fancy having to dig up another mass grave of their people again, remember the one that was unearthed about a year ago ? and even today there are still enosis slogans all over the south, enough reason to keep the troops there I would say.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 21:23

Msg.5 does rather hint at a lack of understanding of what it was like before 1974 and what the GCs own disclosure of what their society is like at this time.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 21:32

its been peaceful on the island since the turkish army started using it as a rehab base ?

gusanova


Joined: 23/11/2010
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 21:32

I think that when the EU fully discusses Cyprus in April we may be in for a surprise or two.

Otherwise its back to stalemate and UN is getting a bit fed up of the impasse!

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 21:37

"Those of you who travel to the 'south' ...how many GREEK soldiers do you see ? "





Im not sure the TC's are afraid of the Greek army its the hard line GC's thats the problem

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 23:02

Msg 16: " best form of defense is to attack, attack and attack."

An excellent example of how primitive, inflexible mentalities have led to decades-long stalemate in Cyprus.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
12/03/2011 23:04

Msg 18, hardly worthy of comment.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/03/2011 01:18

re msg 17 tattlad



I'm talking proportionality .. re military hardware and personnel .. are you seriously suggesting the GC military represents a 'threat'? They have zip air cover and we all know how useless an army is if they don't have air-support.



re 18 'Oh, Brother'.. would you like to 'test' your notion..? Don't make the usual mistake of questioning the OTT TR military presence and TCs needing 'protection'...

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
13/03/2011 03:06

An zip all air space

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
13/03/2011 06:16

Who did the British military support in 74, was it the GC or the TC? If the Turkish military left and it started all over again - who would the British military support then? Let them stay, it keeps all sides thinking instead of acting in the hopes that one side would win hands down. Its all a bit cold war-ish and that situation kept us all alive even if we did not like it! Once a settlement is reached then act on it as a whole package not in dribs and drabs - that will never work.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
13/03/2011 09:35

Plenty of army camps in the south.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
14/03/2011 00:02

It is rather interesting that people who do not obviously know how it felt to be a TC pre 1974 feel that they

can apply a simplistic logic to "solving" the TR military presence in NC.



Such a stance borne out of no experience of life on the island pre 1974 is understandable. I haven't seen any evidence that the troubles will not restart the moment military is withdrawn. Hard cheese it is but the choice was there for the GC's in 1974, either they carried on living peacefully as a single island state or have another go at enosis. One of those choices was a clever choice and the other was not so clever.

TR may have won the battle but all Cypriots lost something something priceless. It is no longer up to the GCs, TCs or any of the ex pats in the South/North to decide what happens.



So the next time anyone in the south gets a bit fed up with the mehmetcik, I suggest you sweat it out, you had a choice.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
14/03/2011 01:40

bro,

The UN peacekeeping force has been vastly reduced in recent years and huge areas of Cyprus, namely urban Nicosia, have been de-mined and demilitarised. Normalisation in the shape of new crossing points and fewer checkpoints gathers apace.

For you to say troubles can be expected if the Turkish army is removed from Cyprus would suggest you have little knowledge of present day realities on the island.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
15/03/2011 00:14

It is important that the denials in this thread on how the GC society has not changed since 1974 are rebutted. There are incidents only too recently that reveal a pre 1974 realm in which young (GC) people are immersed. For the casual reader of the related threads in this forum, it is key that the "we didn't do anything" message being asserted by the GCs (and their sympathisers) is reflected against total reality.

With that in mind, the reader should seek out a wider perspective than provided by writers like myself or those providing a GC perspective here. There is no doubt that there are more relaxed border crossings and mines have been cleared. However these steps have been made irrelevant by the current disposition of GC society. I hope and pray I'm wrong but incidents only too recent show that there are enough GCs who will kick-start the issues as soon as the TR troops are gone.



They key fact: GCs wanted Enosis (union with Greece). The TR soldiers stop them doing tha

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
15/03/2011 00:59

mark messages 15 and 24:



you are always bound to get frustrated if you view the situation as "stalemate"

...of course, "stable" refers to he same thing, but seen from a different perspective



what really fascinates me about that old chestnut of the cyprob somehow stopping

turkey from joining europe after 52 years' trying is not its patently unlikely character

but whether a clever bloke like you ever truly believed it yourself?



...france blocking chapters and the hostile german voter, that says it all I'm sure

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
15/03/2011 13:48

I was speaking to two 25 year old GC's the other day when tattooing them, and believe me they all still want this Island to themselves, and that's from two guys that weren't even born when all the sh*t happened, so the GC's are obviously still breading hatred into their children, they want it all, as ever.

breezyboy


Joined: 14/05/2007
Posts: 1179

Message Posted:
15/03/2011 14:18

Anybody like to guess how many TR troops are in TRNC now?



Some years ago the figure widely accepted was 40.000.



Over the last 5 years the total whatever it was, has decreased. Drive around and see how many almost deserted army posts there are.



The water tanker still staggers through Girne every day with a few Land Rovers and a couple of trucks!



As the distance to TR is so small it would not take very long to restock the bases with men if for some unlikely reason it became necessary. An enormous airborne presence would take a few hours max.



They should leave this old chestnut out of the equation and do something far more likely to keep a lot of people happy. Sort out the transportation differences. Open the ports, the airspace and trade links in all countries concerned NOW! Everybody show some willingness to be positive.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
15/03/2011 18:06

tattlad message 32,



what you say is true of course,

but there are nonetheless some in north cyprus keen on reunification:



like business people, for whom the green borderline is a "nightmare"



even some workers, for whom south cyprus offers job opportunities

and better employment prospects



indeed, I'd very nearly swallow the oft-repeated claim that the gc's

unlike our leopard, have changed their spots since last time

after all the eu may be impotent over libya but are masters of euro-

liberalistic twaddle whenever the "cyprob" rears its ugly head

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 11:47

andre514, msg 34.

The way I was hearing these two lads speak told me there is never going to be a solution, especially from the the South, as you know the TC's were willing to go with the Annan plan, but the GC's wanted nothing to do with it, I wish you could have heard the misguided stuff they were coming out with.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 12:00

Dear tattlad



There is no doubt that many GCs have been brought up to overlook the threat from those who sought Enosis ( union) with Greece - without regard to the wishes of TCs or many GCs.... Did you 'forget' that GCs were fighting each other before the TR Army landed..?



Perhaps you 'forget' that the invasion actually UNITED GCs who had been fighting each other in a way nothing else could have... ?



Annan failed because most GCs simply didn't believe that Dentash was finished, didn't trust Turkey's interest to have a settlement and most importantly the President told GCs that he would get them a better deal - 'within the framework of EU norms' - an opportunity was lost ..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 12:10

re 30



>>They key fact: GCs wanted Enosis (union with Greece). The TR soldiers stop them doing that<<



you choose to 'forget' that Greece had a deeply unpopular military Junta - like the Argentines re the Falklands - and many G.Cypriots were TOTALLY against the removal of Makarios and imposition of a fascist Greek Govt



Society in Cyprus - as a whole has changed - BIG TIME.. The 'rump' RoC wanted to join the EU thinking it would benefit re finance and the CY prob.. TCs are now thinking 'be careful what you wish for" as they see they are out numbered by mainland Turks..

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 12:17

mmmmmm re37.



Annan failed because most GCs simply didn't believe that Dentash was finished, DIDN'T TRUST Turkey's interest to have a settlement and most importantly the President told GCs that he would get them a better deal - 'within the framework of EU norms' - an opportunity was lost ..



You'll find the words in capitals say's it all, the thing I've noticed is the hatred in the south in every bit as strong now as it was then, I've NEVER heard any TC's or Turkish for that matter speak with such hatred.

fireball


Joined: 10/12/2010
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 12:55

Re message 11



Well should we not consider the removal of Greek troops in the roc, or are they just advisors?????????



Also, if talking about helicopters etc, was it not the roc who purchased a load of tanks recently????



It amazes me how people are so blindly one sided and as usual forget the history of events.



gc,s started it got nose well and truelly blooded and now bleat about how hard done by they are..... for gods sake grow up and stop beleiving your own propoganda.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 13:04

Do not worry yourselves over my cousins down south of the border, the moment they see the sight of the Turkish Sword, they will jump out of their tanks and break the record of running backwards.

I did ask my friend GR whether these new tanks can be kept outdoors or would they be garaged overnight, but he ignored my question. We will have plenty to go round if they start another agro.

We have a couple on a hill top pointing at Larnaca from last time. Russian T34s I believe.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 13:12

mmmmmm message 37:



I'm sure you are right on the button about the greek junta being "unpopular"

and this is probably why they were prepared to gamble on a takeover of cyprus



like galtieri and the falklands, they hoped the venture would cloth them in glory



but has greek cypriot society changed towards the turkish cypriots old and new?

you would probably argue that is has,

and there are greek cypriots by the cartload waffling about "our turkish cypriots"



settlers outnumbering cyprus-born turks?

very possibly, and I'd assume you would instinctively choose to label that "bad"

...while some others may prefer to define it in terms of nation-building:



I have no axe to grind on that issue

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 18:22

I return to indicate to any other reader in the future how even a fact - at the end of Msg.30 - is pushed aside by those who believe in the GC position. If I forgot to add anything it was the fact that Greece held one of the three guarantor responsibilities to protect the independence of Cyprus ( http://www.cypnet.co.uk/ncyprus/history/republic/try-guarantee.html).



Nevertheless, the fact remains. What makes in amazing however is how the whole matter is dressed up by those wishing to deny it as the reason why the mehmetcik - to this day - wait in the wings. For the GCs, if there was a case of "wish we never let it happen" then this is it. There is no getting away from the fact that the GCs did, directly or indirectly, loose the golden opportunity to have a wonderful, independent and thriving (not to say still beautiful) island.



Some may even say that "they complain too much"!

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 20:31

No1 what happened to your thread on the MEPS?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 21:32

brother,



your use of the phrase gc "position" just about sums it up:

there cannot be any universal position on the dispute since both sides disagree



anyone who claims otherwise is trying it on



on the other hand, the gc agenda appears at least to be backed-up

by elements of international law and resolutions and statements of the eu and un etc



but apart from the nuisance blockade engineered by our friends in the south,

the effect of all these other bits of paper is a pretty feeble and increasingly stale show

while the international community, assuming one such a thing actually exists,

already has its plate full with problems infinitely more relevant to the nation-states

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 21:34

Philbailey. I can't recall it!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 21:41

re 38 tattlad



Not for one minute am I denying that there aren't GCs who are rabied with hatred - any more than you might overlook 'Gray Wolves', etc....



Didn't trust doesn't equal hatred... please don't twist my words..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 21:50

Fireball re msg 39



I VERY much doubt that your six posts would 'allow' you to suggest I am an apologist for Greek Cypriots.... Please be precise as to how comparing the current strength of opposing arms could be 'propaganda'? ;)



The purchase of new Russian tanks by the 'rump' RoC is a 'joke' and the money could and should have been spent on Healthcare/ Education



I believe there are 2-3K Greek military forces on the island at any one time and you are probably aware that Greece and Turkey's relations are civil and the likelihood of GR intervention is REMOTE..



..about as likely as a GC suicide attack on the 'north' ..



'Blindness' to REALITY might be an issue for someone.. but not me ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 21:58

Dear andre re 41



>>but has greek cypriot society changed towards the turkish cypriots old and new?



you would probably argue that is has, <<



You'd hear MOST GCs say they have no problem with TCs...



>>settlers outnumbering cyprus-born turks?



very possibly, and I'd assume you would instinctively choose to label that "bad" <<



Not 'bad'.. *illegal*..immoral.. forced removal of indigenous population followed by re population from a third nation.. ?



>>...while some others may prefer to define it in terms of nation-building: <<



Sounds like the then Argentine Foreign Minister... suggested a vote on sovereignty - including the invading Argentine troops on the island ;)



>>I have no axe to grind on that issue<<



Now why doesn't THAT surprise me ? ... ;).. You must have missed some TCs' posts on this very forum.... Quite a lot of TCs resent being in the minority in what they thought was going to be their 'country'...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/03/2011 22:01

re 42 Brother..



That the GCs lost an opportunity - more than one - to resolve this matter is not at doubt.. nor their complicity in the mess.. but the 'mess' was aided by those who sought to divide and rule.. to keep the bases..



Let's not forget the 'pawn factor' in all of this...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 13:43

message 48 mark:



I am sure you are right about gc's having "no problem" with tc's

and that some tc's would prefer to live within the republic of cyprus ie nicosia-cyprus



does that mean a north cyprus election could be won on such a ticket? not very likely



or that turkey will abandon its populations? hardly



your comments about indiginous populations etc can be argued with some conviction





but your role in attacking north cyprus and turkey, may not be quite so closely based

on the moral issues involved in the cyprus question:



assuming of course there is one

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 14:00

re msg 50



You seem to be making the mistake of gross oversimplification.. I'm not 'attacking TR', per se... I've been suggesting a way forward for a long time... and I can't blame TCs, now - as they voted YES to trusting a Cyprus within the EU - as part of Annan... are we clear so far ? ;)



The actions ( in some cases inaction where action was necessary ) of GR, TR , UK , US and the Cypriots all combined to make this mess ..



Morally - no one has the right to enforce folk to leave their homes based on ethnicity.. be it '74 or the sixties.. are we clear on THAT? !



Populating the northern part of CY with Turks - as if it was a 'done deal' - can 'work' - provided TR joins the EU - and - after a generation of abrogations of EU norms of freedom of movement - Cypriots and Turks can choose to live where they want.



Essentially, Ireland 'solved' the 'problem by allowing folk to carry the passport of the nation they wanted..



Now.. how to deal with the vexed property Q ...

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 14:30

mmmmmm have you ever heard of the spoils of war ??? is the answer to your property question.

yunus



Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 327

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 15:45

re msg 51



" The actions ( in some cases inaction where action was necessary ) of GR, TR , UK , US and the Cypriots all combined to make this mess .. "







NO, this " mess " ( genocide on the T.c ) was caused only by the GREED of Greece (includes the G.c) who thought there was an opportunity to cease the island. please do not TRY to divide the blame !



if promises were made by external powers i don't know but the G.c's were not FORCED to take this action, they wanted to.



if the T.r had not intervened, today Cyprus would have been a Greek island just like Crete !



"the settler" ( propaganda to divide ) has the right to be here just as the T.c has the right to work and live in Turkey ! only, they are not branded as settlers in Turkey. we are all one of a kind.



IF, only a minority of G.c's are T.c haters. why so much bad propaganda if there is so little hatred ? why still all the lie's ? why no apology for starting all this ? why still block anything and everything T.c

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 15:53

Yunus msg 53.

You will only get more excuses from GC's and their sympathisers, it's funny how they don't want to take the blame for what happened even when the truth is there for all to see, and mmmmmm don't start with this mainland Turks thing, because there are thousands of mainland Greeks, and Greek Islanders living in Cyprus, and you are exactly right when you say that if Turkey didn't intervene it would have been another Greek Island, no doubt mmmmm will come up with some excuse and try and turn it around to share the blame, and the TRNC should be as I've said before, the spoils of war.

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 15:58

Dear mmmmmm



I hope this clarifies post one for you,

If the south of the island is fully independent why on earth are there Greek troops there at all?

When you cross the border you see the Greek flag in many places and loads of bad propaganda at nearly all border crossing.

Rather then the EU asking Turkey to move its troops, which I for one would be very wary of why don’t they start by asking the Greek Cypriots to stop the propaganda pull down all the bad pictures and have a more peaceful approach to everything.

Over the past 5-6 years Turkey has done a fair bit as well as the Turkish Cypriots to move forward with some kind of peace deal but what have the Greeks and Greek Cypriots done??

Please see below a list of Arms and Military * Man force on each side.

Unlike you quoted before it is definitely not only 2.000 -3.000 troops on the south side.

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 15:59

Land Armies

Republic of Cyprus National Guard (plus Greek national forces)

Tanks: 41 (T-80U type), 82 (M48MOLD type), 113 (AMX-30 type)-Russian, US and French types respectively.

Armored vehicles: 43 (BMP-3 Type), 124 (Cascavel Type), 27 (Jararaca Type), 150 (Leonidas II type), 131 ( VAB VCI Type).- Russian, Brazilian, Greek and French types respectively.

Artillery: 8 (M110A2 Type), 12 (M107 Type), 12 (Zuzana Type), 12 (Mk3F Type), 12 (TR-FI Type), 12 (M114 Type), 72 (M56 Type), 20 (M-1944)- USA, Slovakian and Russian types. 100mm, 105mm, 155 mm, 175 mm, 203 mm.

Rocket launchers: 4 (BM-21 Grad type), 24 (M-63 Plamen type)- All Russian types: 40x122mm, 32x128mm, respectively.

Antiaircraft systems: 6 (Tor-M1 type), 12 (Skyguard type) – Russian and Italian types

Antiaircraft systems: 12 (Atlas-Mistral type), 18 (Mistral type), 100 (9K32M-Strela type)- French and Russian types.

Antiaircraft machine guns: 24 (GDF Type), 50 (M-55 Type)- 2x35mm, and 3×20 mm respectively.

Antitank wea

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 16:00

Antitank weapons: 50 (Milan type), 1,000 (Apilas type), 1,000 (RPG-7V type), and unknown number of M72A2 Law type.- 112mm, 85 mm, 66 mm respectively

Other weapons: 150 (M40A1-106mm), 114(MO-RT61-120 mm), 26 (M2/M60-107 mm), 180 (E-44-81 mm), 50 (M19- 60 mm)

Turkish Cypriot Army (plus Turkish national forces)

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 16:01

Antiaircraft machine guns: 84 (M1 type)- US origin, 40 mm.

Antitank systems: 36 (TOW type), 12 (Konkurs-M type), 48 (MILAN type)- USA, Russian and French types respectively

Other weapons: 170 (M40A1-106 mm), 30 (HY-12DI-120 mm), 100 (M2/M30-107 mm), 175 (M1/M29-81 mm)

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 16:02

Navy and Air Force

Republic of Cyprus Navy and Air Force (plus Greek national forces)

Combat helicopters: 11 (Mi-35P type), 4 (Gazelle type)- Russian and French types respectively

Transport and General Use helicopters: 4 (Bell type)- US origin

Aircraft: 1 (BN-2T type), 1 (BN-Maritime type), 1 (PC-9 type)

Patrol boats: 15 of different Greek, Israeli and Italian types. Most of them speed boats with heavy equipment

Surface-to-sea missiles: 24 (Exocet MM40 Type)- French origin

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 16:02

Turkish Cypriot Navy and Air Force (plus Turkish national forces)

General Purpose helicopters: 4 (UH-1H type)- US origin

Aircraft: 3 (T-41D type), 1 (An-2 Colt type)

Patrol boats: 2 speed light weight speed boats

stevo-london


Joined: 23/10/2010
Posts: 253

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 16:03

Manpower

Republic of Cyprus National Guard (plus Greek national forces)

13,000 active-duty, plus 65,000 reserves

Turkish Cypriot armed forces (plus Turkish national forces)

40,000 active-duty, plus 25,000 reserves

Welldigger



Joined: 16/06/2010
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 17:28

A couple of years ago, I read in a reputable broadhseet in the UK, that the Greek Cypriots were the biggest buyers of arms in the world, second only to the USA. Why would it be necessary for such a small part of the island to purchase such fire-power, if they had no intention os using it? If Turkey pulls out it's troops, it's back to the bad old days I'm afraid.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 18:22

mark message 51:



"no one has the right to force people to lose their homes" etc, etc



it was the forced hounding of tc communities into protected areas

that was the sinister forerunner of your pals' enosis-coup of 1974



...which ultimately provoked the timely turkish peace intervention:

and now more handwringing and the renting of garments on "44"

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 18:42

Msg 62 are you on drugs



please make use of google



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 19:05

or this



http://www.economist.com/node/1331491



please tell me what broadsheets you read



I always classed the Beano as a tabliod

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 19:21

message 62

The reason why the ROC buy arms in such large quantities is so that they can sell them on. And they do not care who they sell them on to either.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 19:29

Msg 66 like the uk then ?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/03/2011 19:34

NGO Saferworld documents the £45bn worth of arms delivered by Britain in the past 10 years, making us the world's second-largest arms exporter. In the past three years, arms have been exported to 19 of the 20 countries identified in the Foreign Office's annual human rights report as "countries of concern". The Colombian military and its paramilitary allies have killed thousands of people in the country's civil war. Yet last year Britain exported armoured all-wheel-drive vehicles, military communications equipment and heavy machine guns, alongside a military aid programme. Indonesia has received more than £400m worth of military equipment since 1997, while using British military equipment for internal repression on a dozen known occasions.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13790

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 02:48

re 66



>>The reason why the ROC buy arms in such large quantities is so that they can sell them on. And they do not care who they sell them on to either.<<



Can you substantiate this, please AJ... ?

Welldigger



Joined: 16/06/2010
Posts: 27

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 10:10

Re: msg 64 & 65, 1) personal attacks are unnecessary 2) wikepedia is not the be all and end all and has been know to be inaccurate & 3) it wasn't the "beano" I read it in Bunty!



Seriously, take a look:



http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/20935/greek-cypriots-2nd-biggest-small-arms-importer.html



PS: Sorry my original statement of a UK broadsheet was incorrect but hey we all make mistakes. Either way, it's not right.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 10:17

re 52 Tattlad



'spoils of war' v ECHR decisions... 21st Century..nuff said..



re 66 ( part 2) Are you so sure that the RoC are flavour of the month re the Russians? ...



http://www.rieas.gr/research-areas/greek-studies/1080-alleged-cyprus-arms-affair-points-to-wider-questions.html



re 62.. I suggest the 'reputable broadsheet' served as chip wrapping paper ...!.



re 53.. long time, Yunus.. Could you tell us how 'interested' TR was in Cyprus until the British persuaded them to join in a tri-partate talks ? ..At that time Greece was appealing to the UN to get this issue of Cyprus' independence from Britain 'on the map'..which was rather 'inconvenient for Britain... to underplay the role of the UK and USA - is to deny historical fact..



re 63..andre.. just like EOKA.. TMT had an 'agenda'.. and many TCs didn't WANT to move into Ghettos.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 12:12

mmmmmm Msg 71.

When you cause sh*t like the GC's did you have to live with the consequence, ECHR decissions(they have no room to speak) 21st century or not........ Nuff Said....

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 12:36

mmmmm...

'Blindness' to REALITY might be an issue for someone. but not me;

...and many TCs didn't WANT to move into Ghettos;

I disagree with both! You have no clue about the number of mainland Greek soldiers and families, recruited to serve in the National Guard and became naturalised Cypriots as a reward over the decade prior to 1974 war!(in their thousands). You wish to start a debate on that I shall provide more info, but since you are competent enough, I suggest you use the google search box and find out more!

TCs RAN to ghettos just like we did from Kyrenia during 1963-64! They were not forced by anyone but did so for fear of their and the loved ones lives. You obviously have no idea of what "fear of death to point of extinction" can make people do. Even after they moved, many isolated TC villages were wiped out by the EOKA.

My question to you is: How does the presence of Turkish troops during negotiations, affect them from progressing? Answer this and I might even agree with

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 13:20

re msg 72



Once AGAIN.. there is no doubting that Greece conspired with some GCs to forcibly ensure 'Enosis ( union with Greece) but you seem to assume that this was a universal wish of GCs..



YES - the notion of being part of a Hellenic larger nation appealed - but NOT that way.. There was a civil war and many GCs died fighting the fascists..pro rapprochement GCs ..pro living side by side with other Cypriots - be it TCs, Maronites, Armenians or 'even' British



By the the same token there were TCs who sought Taksim ( division) and some Turks and TCs opposed to this - wanting to sort this out without resorting to armed struggle - were treated as badly by their own kind, too. :(

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 13:32

re 55 Stevo-London



>> why on earth are there Greek troops there at all? <<



The 'excuse' given is training the RoC National Guard.. I se no reason for their presence - any more than I do TR troops.. There are specific UN Security Council resolutions requesting all those troops to leave Cyprus.. YES?





>>When you cross the border [ WHAT 'border' ? - you mean the UN monitored cease fire line] you see the Greek flag in many places and loads of bad propaganda .<<



You see the Turkish flag everywhere, too.. I don't like to see either of them.. The images one sees at one crossing point - don't do the 'cause' any good in my opinion.. it gives the appearance that only GCs died..



>>Rather then the EU asking Turkey to move its troops<< it's a UN request.. and not just to TR



>>ask.. the Greek Cypriots to stop the propaganda pull down all the bad pictures and have a more peaceful approach to everything. <<



The photos aren't 'war-like' - they are just one-sided ..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 13:45

(Cont)



Stevo-London



Thanks for posting your comprehensive list but it takes no account of the overwhelming TR naval / airforce / land based hardware that can and does patrol parts of Cyprus.



BigOz re 73



you may disagree - but I know TCs who experienced pressure from TMT to vacate their homes or were coerced into non support of GC businesses - defiance meant 'bad' things happened..



Your reality doesn't seem to want to take account of TCs and GCs who sought polarisation and weren't too fussy about 'breaking heads' :(

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 14:12

re 73



>>My question to you is: How does the presence of Turkish troops during negotiations, affect them from progressing? Answer this and I might even agree with<<



Withdrawing the OTT level of presence would be seen as a act of good faith and puncture the hard line GC hawks that Turks can't be trusted..



It is a shame that Mr Erdogan didn't order this when he was newly elected - it MIGHT have been perceived as 'weakness' by TR hawks but it would have undermined the GC ones... :(





Anyways ..both GR and TR are members of the UN and should comply with the UN '74 resolutions to withdraw their troops.. as I've point out elsewhere.. Turkey has gone on record today ( 18/3/11) asking all nations to respect a UN resolution on Libya stating " UN resolution is binding on all countries."

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 14:32

mmmmmm msg 77.

There is NO such thing as OTT levels of troops when you keep uncovering mass graves of men women and CHILDREN, and don't give me this happened from both sides sh*t because it's there for all to see who started the trouble and TC's that did the same were only retaliating .....

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 20:25

message 71 re 63:



a statement of the obvious disguised as an informed response

your problem is: the north will not elect a pro-nicosia government

you may rankle at that, but that is the way it is



please accept my sympathies

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 21:54

Dear tattlad



>>There is NO such thing as OTT levels of troops when you keep uncovering mass graves of men women and CHILDREN<< Are there still masses of troops in Bosnia / Kosovo ?



>> it's there for all to see who started the trouble and TC's that did the same were only retaliating .....<<



Sadly, you seem to overlook the fact that Cyprus and other islands with mixed ethnicities haven't been immune to inter-ethnic strife in the previous centuries.. not just the 20th ... You accuse some GCs of thinking 'history' begins in 1974 ?! ...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/03/2011 22:45

mark message 80:



a thing that identifies the "cyprob" is that ethnic strife

was merely the forerunner to a division of the island



I'd agree with you that partition proposals cannot solve everything:

think india, ireland, palestine, sudan, and er...belgium?



that can only be a last resort, an alternative to something even worse



then again, it's worth defining words like solve, worse and progress

...otherwise you lay yourself open to charges of bias