Rauf Denktas Support for Ex-Pats

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 18:12

I got my Cyprus Today late this week and having seen the headline and read Mark Forster's article I am staggered that there has been no comment on Cyprus44.

Here is arguably the most respected man in TRNC loudly voicing his anger at the government for their treatment of ex-pats and demanding action - and not a squeak. Not a cheer from those who believe everything will now be OK (well - there might be one), not a sneer from all the cynics saying it won't help at all, especially not a word to welcome his support from all those currently with problems.

Oh stupid me, AJAX are Dutch champions and efes the dog has an update - no wonder Rauf doesn't get a mention.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 18:41

I personally fully welcome the support of Mr Denktas and admire him for doing so.



I wonder if the lack of response is due to the all too few numbers that do now respond on this forum; perhaps the majority affected have already left the TRNC; people are frightened to say what they feel for the real fear of retribution by the TRNC authorities (see Pauline Read's experience); and / or to the same 'protest fatigue' I feel over the complete lack of interest by TRNC politicians or government in tackling the corruption and injustices being suffered.



Those that can afford to get out of their TRNC property have or are doing so and maybe it's now beginning to hurt the economy which may have started to hurt the politicians and or their families.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 18:41

Good for Uncle Ralph, still the best of the bunch.



A TC friend of mine was in a room with our illustrious PM, and had the chance to ask what he was doing about the Kulaksiz 5 - his reply was along the lines of Kulaksiz who?

mable


Joined: 15/04/2011
Posts: 21

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 18:56

hey dont mention anything bout effes the dog the lych mob will start

misunderstood


Joined: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1004

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 19:03

Troodo, He knows who we are alright, he just wishes we would go away. Like a lot of politicians here he thinks if he igores a problem, there is no problem. I bet he would not have said 'Akfinans who?', how else can they pay the civil service wages?



I feel truly blessed to have made the acquaintance of Mr. Rauf Denktas, this fiasco would not have happened on his watch. However, he is treated with the same disdain as the expats by the current regime. Even he is not getting replies to his letters to that bunch. His support for Kulaksiz 5 has been outstanding and if it is at all possible I know he will be at the court on Firday.

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 19:03

We have had dinner with Rauf a few times - he is a very nice bloke; genuine - and whilst most political figures say what they believe people want to hear, he is fearless in saying what he truly sincerely believes. As to whether it will make an iota of difference, is another story.........

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 19:06

@ msg 1, Jovial_John: Your post had twelve views until now - I now upload the full article and will keep statistics of the views. Comments can now come from all over the world. Let's see what happens...:

▶ [ http://is.gd/8xQHA7/keywords_trnc_denktash_help_expats ].

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 19:34

For the record, I met him briefly for the first time recently and was very honoured to shake his hand - and I told him so. I think his heart is in the right place and we should all be grateful for his support.

I have my doubts as to how effective his voice will be with the government, but he has a huge popular following among ordinary TCs and that will make some difference.

Does anyone know if his remarks were published in the TC press?

misunderstood


Joined: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1004

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 19:47

I am not sure JJ, probably, he writes regularly and his articles are often in the Turkish speaking press.



I do kow he has the bti between his teeth now and has fired off many missives to the relevent Governent Ministers.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 19:50

mess 1 - great post JJ...........



How is Efes, by the way ??

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 20:07

Sorry NN - don't read about it - don't drink it!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 21:16

@ msg 1, Jovial_John: Your post had 225 views now - 18 viewers bothered to click the link in msg 7.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 22:15

Mr. Who??



Could someone please ask him what he did with 1.5million of VAKIF money from the sale of VAKIF land to British,back in the 60s!

or,what was the reason of making all turks on the eve of elections,over night!



or,the comments of “giden Türk gelen Türk” .........."Ya Taksim, Ya Ölüm"





Once he's answered those,only then maybe,just maybe some respects...........

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 22:28

yorgozlu (mess 13)



Could you please ask Mr Robb's Turkish/Turkish Cypriots compatriats what they did with 1.8 million of our money? back in 2003/2004 and they are still walking free?????



Once you have answered maybe just maybe some respect!!!!!!

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 22:55

correction to msg 13;



or,what was the reason of making all turks 'citizens' on the eve of elections,over night!



msg 14;

You've and your likes given your money to Mr robb and his "Turkish/Turkish Cypriots compatriats"!!Does my name fit in ant of the names mentioned???

Why didn't you listened to 'your' own governments warnings?....and still went ahead and bought on a disputed land!!.........and now,sitting there and 'trying' to tell me about RESPECT...........thet don't sell them at tescos or asdas or the likes.............

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
16/05/2011 23:43

yorgozlu (mess 15)





??????????????????

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 13:29

Msg 7 Hans - Thank you.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 14:13

msg 16;

I didn't think you would!

Ozankoyman


Joined: 06/10/2010
Posts: 35

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 17:01

yorgozlu,and people like him are stark raving mad uttering false statements about our first president Rauf Denktas.

All of the Turkish world is honoured that we have a living legend still waving the banner against injustices suffered by the Turks of Cyprus.

I have said my bit and i am not entering into any banter with this person spreading falsehoods!

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 17:11

yorgozlu msg 15



I agree that expats were warned about buying greek/cyp land but the bone of contention is not with that, it is the corrupt and disgraceful actions of a particular bank and their friends who happen to be residents north of the border.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 18:25

well done mr d

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 21:22

Yorgoblu.



Dıtto!!!! And maybe ıf you responded to peoples posts wıth a bıt of respect then maybe you wouldnt come across as an arrogant lıttle man full of hate and bıtterness

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 22:00

JJ Msg 1: "Here is arguably the most respected man in TRNC loudly voicing his anger at the government for their treatment of ex-pats and demanding action - and not a squeak."

Here's a squeak from me. Denktas is the man responsible for the position so many hundreds of foreign investors in the TRNC are in today. Post 1974, abandoned Greek Cypriot property was designated as temporary accommodation for TCs and was forbidden from being sold. Then one fine day Uncle Rauf - ignoring the advice of his own legal officials - decided the GCs would never be back so he allowed TC refugees to sell the homes and lands they had been occupying. Hence the flood of foreigners of limited means (and often education) scrambling to buy knock-off holiday homes. And we all know what happens when money is waved in the faces of those who never had it. Greed takes over. And the Greeks did come back.

Perhaps the old boy is feeling guilty in his dotage about how many TC and expat lives he screwed up.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 22:23

Actualy if anyone is to blame for the boom in sales of land in the North to expats and the resultant mass increase in all the problems seen today it is in my view the UN. Pre Annan Plan sales of land to expats were a mere fraction of those seen in more recent years, with 90% of those buying here having some prior conection to Cyprus. It was the lead up and post Annan plan that led to the explosion of sales of land and property to non cypriots, which also was the same period Denktash political power and influence was on the wane.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 22:33

erolz/Zoots (mess23/24)



Blame who you want! the end result is no-one with any modicum of sense will buy anything either North or South of the border!

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 22:37

Denktas alone took the decision to allow the sale of GC property - despite being warned by his own legal advisers that this was against international law. The Orams decision proved this.

Foolish though they were to even contemplate buying dodgy property here, all the foreign victims would not be in the position they are in today if they had not been allowed to purchase in the first place.

Like so many other disasters in the TRNC, the rot started and the buck stops with Denktas.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 23:05

And who knows what the state of the TC people would be today, if post 74 70% of the value they had in property (property in the south) remained locked up and inaccessable indefinately ? Casting stones is easy, but it was a difficult time, post 74, a destroyed economy, vast numbers of TC displaced from the south, vast sums of private wealth 'locked up' in the south. It is easy for those with no responsibility for the a community, but with axes to grind, to make black and white assertions about the man. Yes the decision was problematic legaly and yes the problems derived from it manifest today, but something had to be done if the TC were to survive as a community , largely displaced and seperate from the South. They were big and difficult decisions and quite possibly crucial to the very survival of the TC people as a community in Cyprus made by a big man. Smaller men harp and accuse, men like Denktash, right or wrong, did. I know who I respect more.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
17/05/2011 23:17

But then some people safe in the UK didn't have to live through those hard times, eh?

Denktas is the classic big fish in a small pond. A man who sold out the Cypriots for his motherland, Turkey. Anyone who respects him for the damage he did to the Turkish Cypriot cause and homeland clearly belongs in the small pond.

But we digress. Denktas created the property crisis by allowing the sale of GC property and so bears responsibility for the victims' plight. And to think he ignored his legal advisers. His own law qualifications must have been as dodgy as a TRNC kocan.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 00:38

Yeah because without the likes of Denktash with the support of Turkey through the late 50's and 60's the Cypriot people, all of them, would be ... er Greek Citizens, without a nation of their own, an offshore back water of a bankrupt Greek state, with no effective say or control over their own futures, GC and TC alike. In reality all Cypriots owe Denktash and his compartiots a huge debt for saving them from the disaster that enosis would have been for them.

I indeed did not live in Cyprus in the period 64-68, a time when an all GC run RoC, in breach of its own consitution and that had ignored its own consitutional court and its rulings decided to start running bands of ethnic based killers out of the interior minsitry that took TC with impunity from their places of work in braod daylight, simply because they were TC, murdered them and dumped their bodies in wells. Of course World powers granting such a government legitmacy had no role in the disaters that befell cypriots [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 00:47

as a result of such indifference. Oh no , it's all down to Denktash betraying the cypriot people for Turkey's sake. How simple the world is for propagandist like yourself Zoots. Just try for one moment Zoots to imagine you are a young TC wife just starting out in life, with three young children, your husband continues to go to work, despite warnings from the likes of Denktash of the dangers of doing so, and one day he never returns. You know he was killed by GC but you live in hope for over 40 years none the less. You know that these killings are being organised from within the very 'government' itself. You know the perpetrators will never come to justice. You know the 'international community' will do nothing to protect you, as these things happened even whilst the UN was here, watching. You live literlay in fear, afraid of every knock on the door at nigh may be a prelude to your own and your childresn murder. Every day this is how you live. [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 00:55

Who is standing by you ? The 'legitimate government' of the RoC, that is running the bands of killers ? The UK ? The 'international community' that rewarded these killers with 'recongition' as a 'legtimate' government ? No, the one who is standing by you, who offers your only chance of salvation is Denktash, rushing around tirelessly in his little mini car, from village to village, and from widow to widow, giving you the only glimmer of hope that the nightmare you live in and the constant fear may one day end. Denktash was and is no saint, but he was an embodiment of hope and salvation for vast numbers of TC in their darkest hours when they had been abandoned to their fate by everyone. You can slate him all you like with your petty snipings, to perus your proganda objectives, it does not change who is was and is.

honestie


Joined: 22/02/2009
Posts: 468

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 08:22

I think we all know there can be problems buying properties on maybe unsafe land and I think that is a decision you make when buying and you have to accept the consequences if you make a decision to buy however we didnt expect the problems coming from such a corrupt legal system and that is in the whole of Cyprus which is a seperate issue that has to be sorted

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 09:35

In 1960 the GC’s promised to uphold the new constitution and abandon their plans for union with Greece – THEY LIED. In 1963 the GC’s tell the world that the TC’s walked out of parliament of their own free will, THEY LIED.

A lot of expats came here in 2003 expecting the Annan plan to go through, as both sides were expected to vote yes, THE GC’s LIED. People like Zoots ( Piky ) have lost the ability to recognise the truth and have tangled themselves in such a quagmire of lies and deceit that any chance of a just solution disappeared in 2004.

Now we have a new generation of TC politicians who would do well to listen to Uncle Ralph, or they will lose everything to either Turkey or the GC’s.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 09:38

PS. Let's hope it is Turkey, as very soon the GC's won't have a pot to p--- in.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 12:43

as usual zoots makes some telling points



problem is, as always, this is just a wee slice of the cyprus story,

the rights and wrongs, the who gained who lost ...as he very well knows



again, it must be stated (sigh) that any legal stuff that cannot be enforced

widely, risks not only the label "bad law" but will gradually lose its

overall validity in the very long term



and this is probably why he placed his trust instead in the cyprus talks

process back in 2009/10: we all remember the "90% sure" howler



andre

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 18:07

Reducung matters to basics, one has to ask the question: how many expat and foreign buyers had the faintest idea that the properties they were buying, apparently had not been exchanged at all? Yet, they were assured by those whom they presumed to be telling the truth that 'Esdeger' was/is safe to buy.



How many had seen the British & Commonwealth Office warnings re. TRNC property 'purchase'.



Since any TRNC 'Contract of Sale' is worthless in the eyes of the international community, including the European Court of Human Rights, as evidenced by the loss of property in the 'Orams' Case', the TRNC government are unlikely to 'back the Brits' any further. In fact, what many thinking people surmise might happen is fraught with too much risk to publicly 'air' on this forum.



As for Rauf Denktash supporting expats. - was it not reported in 'Cyprus Today' that his [alleged] advice to those blatantly cheated on pre '74 Turkish Title, was to take their complaint(s) to the ECHR?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 18:24

msge 36



"including the European Court of Human Rights"



Doesn't the ECHR recognise the rights of both the former as well as the current owner (which was also recognised in the annan plan), whilst the ECJ only recognises the rights of the former original owner?



I am sure better informed members can put me straight.

islandgirl


Joined: 12/09/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 18:27

Once again Erolz an excellent post, thoughtful, insightful and well worded certainly better than some of the small minded bitter vitriol spouted by some. Thank you for posting.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:16

What you seem to be suggesting Tanak, is that 250000 people will be displaced if the GC’s return without obtaining a just solution - This is absolute rubbish.

ECHR judgment¸ which came after Oram case, stated that the present occupiers of any land had rights, and those rights would be supported. They have no intention of allowing another massive problem to emerge.

Not that there is a solution in sight, fair or otherwise.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:24

The ECHR is held above the ECJ, as I understand it.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:31

Erolz,

Don't avoid the issue with historic stuff from 40 years ago which we're not even talking about.

The subject is Denktas and property sold to foreigners.

Denktas was the one who allowed the sale of Greek Cypriot property to go ahead.

His own legal advisors warned him it was against international law but he ignored them.

The Orams ruling proved Denktas wrong and places thousands of foreigners at risk.

Therefore Denktas has primary responsibility for the whole fiasco.

N.B. Denktas has retired and has little influence. You have nothing to gain by trying to defend him.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:31

Tenakoutou you need to get better informed. Firstly the Ormas case was not heard by the ECHR. It was heard by ECJ. These are totaly different bodies, on a part of the EU and one a part of the CoE. They are different boides with differnt jusrisdications and different funtions entirely. Secondly it is just not true to say that no deeds issued in the TRNC are worhtless in the eyes of the international community. Those that do not involve dispute property as a result of 74 are almost certainly considered valid under international law. I could quote and explain the 'namibia exception' to you but if you do not know the difference between the ECHR and ECJ there would be little point I fear.



ilovecyprus, the ECHR did indeed make comments about such things when it ruled on the validity of the IPC as a valid local remedy.

http://cmiskp.echr.coe.int/tkp197/view.asp?action=html&documentId=864000&portal=hbkm&source=externalbydocnumber&table=F69A27FD8FB86142BF01C1166DEA398649

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:35

So bottom line do the Orams still have a house in Cyprus?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:38

[cont]



There are many section that are germaine to how the ECHR view the rights of present users of disputed properties balanced against the rights of pre 74 owners. It is a complex legal and moral issue with no black and white simple answer. Anyway probaly the most relevant section to this discusion in the above ruling byt the ECHR is this one, but as ever it should be read in context of the whole document



"116. The Court must also remark that some thirty-five years after the applicants, or their predecessors in title, left their property, it would risk being arbitrary and injudicious for it to attempt to impose an obligation on the respondent State to effect restitution in all cases, or even in all cases save those in which there is material impossibility, a suggested condition put forward by the applicants and intervening Government which discounts all legal and practical difficulties barring the permanent loss or destruction of the property. "

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:39

"It cannot be within this Court's task in interpreting and applying the provisions of the Convention to impose an unconditional obligation on a Government to embark on the forcible eviction and rehousing of potentially large numbers of men, women and children even with the aim of vindicating the rights of victims of violations of the Convention."

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:41

Troodo: "What you seem to be suggesting Tanak, is that 250000 people will be displaced if the GC’s return without obtaining a just solution - This is absolute rubbish.

"ECHR judgment¸ which came after Oram case, stated that the present occupiers of any land had rights, and those rights would be supported."

Troodo. You know full well that Turkey ignores international law and ECHR judgements. Do you think Turkey will protect the rights of foreigners when it already has thousands of Turkish Cypriots and Turkish citizens on GC property to worry about?

What Tenak is saying - and I agree with him - is we are facing a situation where thousands of Brits/Europeans could be deported and/or have "their" properties seized to free up compensation for a settlement. We have recently been reminded once again that property is the number one issue to overcome for a deal with the GCs.

Turkey/TRNC have no responsibility for third country citizens and those are the ones most likely to be targeted.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:44

philbaily as I understood Tenakoutou post, he was making a point that Denktash says to expats goto the ECHR and the ECHR has already ruled that expats have no rights re disputed property they brought in the TRNC, as seen by the Orams case. This is just muddled incoorect linkages. The ECHR did not rule on the Orams case. The ECJ did. You can see exatly what the ECHR has said in the link I have given.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:44

Surely anyone "knowing" buying disputed property

anywhere in Cyprus

must have been aware of the risks

and therefore cannot complain ?

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:45

Exctly, erolz.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:50

Zoots, its hard to keep up with your misinformation the rate that it comes at.



Msg 41 "The subject is Denktas and property sold to foreigners."

My response was into your claims Denktash was "A man who sold out the Cypriots for his motherland, Turkey." You make generalised claimes about the man. When I respond to these claims you say that is not what wer are talking about, yet it was YOU who made the generalised claims, that were not about his decision to allow TC to sell disputed property in the north awarded to them by the TRNC and its for runner.



Msg 46 "You know full well that Turkey ignores international law and ECHR judgements. Do you think Turkey will protect the rights of foreigners when it already has thousands of Turkish Cypriots and Turkish citizens on GC property to worry about?"



Angain this is just plain rubbish and a 'journalist' who lectures others on accuracy should be ashmed to print such BS. Turkey does not and can not ignore ECHR rulings

[cont]

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:53

Still no answer

do the Orams have a property still?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:55

without facing the ultimate sanction of expulsion from the CoE. The ECHR is unlike any other supra national court in existance in the past or today, in that it not only has jurisdiction to make judgements regarding member states, it has the MEANS to enforce its judgments.

As zoots well knows it is a fact that the IPC was set up at the demand of the ECHR as a result brought agsint Turkey by Greek Cypriots. Konwing this is a fact to then say that the ECHR offers no protection to non citizens of the TRNC, as Zooots has said before, is just total and absolute bollocks.

If it were true that Turkey just ignored ECHR rulings then Turkey would have been expelled from the CoE. It does, like all member states, its utmost to delay having to make changes imposed on it by the ECHR, just as the RoC does and the UK id doing at present as well, but all know that ultimately they either implent ECHR rulings or they leave the CoE. That is the truth.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:56

philbailey, I do not know the answer to your question. I have seen it claimed they were given alternative property bu the TRNC for that which they lost, but I do not know if that is an accurate reoprt or not.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 19:59

I heard the government paid thier court costs?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:02

Zoots insistance that "Turkey/TRNC have no responsibility for third country citizens and those are the ones most likely to be targeted." and that non citizens are not protected by the ECHR from acts of the TRNC government are not only incorrect and in my view intentful lies on his part. They are actualy damaging and removing rights and protection from any foolish enough to believe them.



If Turkey infringes ANYONES human rights, or by extension the TRNC does, for which the ECHR deems Turkey responsible, they have legal redress to the ECHR and what is more Turkey can NOT just ignore these rulings short of leaving the CoE or being expelled from it.



Zoots your lies seek to convince people they have no protection of their human rights, to concinve them they are unempowered. As such they as pretty dammed disgusting from someone who claims to be such a bastion of high morality and ethics. Non citizens of the TRNC CAN and HAVE taken violations of their rights to the ECHR

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:06

If the ECHR find in favour of such complaints they CAN and HAVE not only awarded compensation to the plantiff but can also FORCE the guilty state of ensuring such violations do not occur again. The examples of where this have happened are legion and beyond any doubt.



Zoots by trying to convince victims of human rights abuses by the TRNC that they can not seek redress for such by the ECHR and if they do it will have no effect you are youself just trying to victimis the victims themselves. Just stop with the lies for pitys sake and theirs.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:13

No real answers

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:18

the only human rights being abused are that of the tc,s,by telling the world we do not exsist.







musin



LONG LIVE THE KKTC

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:20

Msg 58 should that read

"by selling the world that do not exist"



just a question ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:32

Once more because this is actually REALLY important for those who have sufferd an abuse of theirs rights, rather than those just wanting to push thier agendas and BS.



ANYONE who's rights as an indivdual as laid out in ECHR charters have been violated by the TRNC authorites, or indeed violted by any member state of the CoE, is PROTECTED by the ECHR and what is more the ECHR does and has and will force it rulings to be respectd by such member states and it thye do not it will impose its ultimate sanction on them which is explusion from the CoE.



Anyone who tells you otherwise is either grossly mistaken or just a plain lier. You DO have protection and means of enforcement of such protection IS effective. Yes it is a long and hard road to seek such protection and redress for violations but to say such protections do not exist can only seek to disempower such victims and negate the proptections they do have.



The above are FACTS provable by thousands of previous rulings made by the E

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:37

So, 'erolz', this brings us to the question as to why the TRNC seems determined to continue to flagrantly flout the human rights of foreigners - these are clearly defined laws, as well as the accepted norms for a civilised code of ethics?



As far as I'm concerned, 'Zoots' makes many valid points, which are borne out by the attitude of the international community - even if 'unpalatable' to you!



How can TRNC ever expect NOT to be embargoed whilst this level of blatant lawlessness, nepotism and corruption exists?



Any amount of 'bleating' won't help one scrap!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:43

The TRNC is a non recognised state because it was created by force of arms and ivloved the mass expulsion of thoudsands of people. That is a fact. It is non unrecongised because of 'blatant lawlessness, neoptism and corruption' within it.

It is also a FACT that indivduals human rights are preotected by the ECHR for acts of the TRNC. Of course if no one who rights are infringed takes the case to the ECHR , because people like zoots have told them you have no protection, then nothing changes. When indivduals have taken such abuses to the ECHR it has led to some of the most profound changes in Cyprus. When a TC took Turkey to court for infringing his right to cross to the south it led to the opneing of the border. When GC took Turkey to ECHR for denying them right to enjoy thier property in north cyprus it led to the setting up of the IPC which provides a means for such GC to get redress for such loss.

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:48

When TC living in the South went to the ECHR saying the refusal of the RoC to allow them to vote infringed their rights it lead to changes in the law in the RoC that allowed them top vote. The examples are endless.

If you really believe your rights flagrantly flouts your human rights Tenakouto, then you have 2 choices. Post indefinately on a foum or forums like this about what a terrible place the TRNC is, or choose to use the very real and very effective mechanism you have to protect yourself agsint such abuses, namely the ECHR. THe first will produce no change. THe second will eventualy produce change that will not only solve your indidvudal violation of rights but prevent it happening to others in the future.

Of ocurse to take the second route rather than the first requires a bit more 'gumption' shall we say and its probably not a good idea if you dont even know what the ECHR is or how it is different from say the ECJ.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:50

[cont]



However the absolutely WORST possible thing you can do , if you REALLY care for people who's rights have been and are being violated, would be to tell them they have no protection at all and the ECHR can not force Turkey to do anything. Which is EXACTLY what zoots does his with regularity.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:50

Hi ErolZ



Again I think you and Zoots could agree on much - if you met... if you ever would !!



I'm sure Zoots means that HISTORICALLY Turkey has ignored ECHR rulings.. and taken warning reminders, etc., to the very edge.. This was particularly true of findings against TR re non access to ( still) GC owned property..



That the GCs didn't seriously test the IPC ( in droves) when it was seriously under review is an 'own goal' by the GCs who simply can't pick and choose rulings...



Zoots is hardly wrong is claiming that non TCs buying property are being discriminated against ... ( pre 74 TR / Foreign deeds non getting 'p2p' ..



THAT would make an interesting case...



Lest I sound biased.. of course the 'rump' RoC cases of mortgaged land ( and cases of mis-appropriation of TC land that SHOULD come under the TC Guardian - and land 'acquired' between '63 and '74 need to be examined, too.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 20:58

Do I detect a note of mockery, 'erolz'?



You really need to learn to appreciate the very real problems and consternation of others - whoops, I forgot that Cypriots are always right - North or South!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 21:04

MM I have repeated tried to arrange a face to face meeting with zoots over the years and he has repeatedly refused to do so.



You can not ignore ECHR indefinately without sanction. As a respondent state you can delay but you can not ignore such rulings indefinately. That is the plain and simple truth of the matter. You know it , I know it and Zoots knows it yet he still posts things like "Everyone's civil liberties are protected by the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) - apart from unfortunate foreigners in the TRNC." Are you MM really going to argue that is not just blantatly incoorect or he means tha historicaly that was the case ? I am sorry but telling people they have no protection from the ECHR for acts comitted by TRNC is just incorrect and dangerously so.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 21:10

MM as for the arbitary use of PtP to stop non citizens buying pre74 TC title propreties I most certainly agree that this should be tested in the ECHR. In fact I made the suggestion myself, though I believe that it is best done by a seller, as this to me is the clearest breach of ECHR charters. The right to property does not include a right to buy property, it does protect people from the state arbitarily resticting a person right to enjoy thier property, which includes selling it. For a buyer to goto the ECHR on this issue would require using ECHR charters on disrimination, which in terms of restricting sales of immovable property based on citizenship or non citizenship, is not in my laymans view any where near as clear cut as infringment of the sellers right to sell without arbitary interferance from the state.

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/62856.asp

It is exactly because I know how effecitve the ECHR can be in solving injustices in a generic way that I am opposed [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 21:11

to the lies that ECHR does not cover non citizens in the TRNC and that Turkey has and will just ignore any rulings by the ECHR in reagrds of 'foreigenrs'.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 21:20

Tenakoutou msg 66 "Do I detect a note of mockery, 'erolz'?"



I am not responsible for what you may 'detect'. It is however true that if one wanted to use the ECHR as an effective means of challenging violations of their human rights, or indeed if they wished to convice others such was pointless, it would be best if they first actualy understood what the ECHR was. If that sounds like mockery to you so be it.



"whoops, I forgot that Cypriots are always right - North or South! " Again there are 2 possibilites here. One, that I am wrong but because I am a cypriot I think I am right, or the other possibility is I am just right. You see the former. I think the later is actualy the reality in this case.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 21:30

blatant lawlessness, nepotism and corruption' within it.

Sounds like the south to me.



By the way, there are far more expats who are happy, here in the TRNC, than not. This does not negate the blatant fraud thievery and abuse carried out by individual ex-pats, Turks and TC's - nor a government that stands back and does nothing to the shame of their citizens.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 23:02

So, 'erolz', do you, as a Cypriot, condone the inaction of your government, or do you put it all down to 'understandable [and therefore plausibly excusable] ineptitude?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 23:07

No I do not condone the action inaction of the TRNC government on so many of these issues. What I am interested in is not just moaning about them but in understanding how change can be brought about. The ECHR is one of the most powerful means for indivduals to force such changes, which is why it gets me so annoyed when I see people posting blatant untruthrths that seek to convince others that the ECHR does not protect non citizens or that Turkey can and does ignore its rulings and other such nonsense. I get even more annoyed when I know the people posting such misinformation know it to be such when they post it.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 23:30

Erolz.



Zoots (Piky) will never change. That is why is why it is never worth getting too involved with him. To go into any depth with him is a waste of time as I have found over the last few years. When he gets banned, he comes back like a bad smell, with a new name. The only thing to do is to make it clear to people, not in the know, that all he is trying to do is cause distress to venerable ex-pats. He is a very sad man, from the Cyprus forum.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
18/05/2011 23:33

Troodo, is that the best come-back?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 08:23

erolz/Troodo:



What you can't seem to fathom is that it shouldn't be necessary for cheated foreigners to be forced to take their complaints/cases to be determined by the EU justice system - whether ECJ, or ECHR.



If you can't accept that any civilised country should implement laws based on a decent, honest and honourable code of ethics as the basis for its leglislation, then I put it to you that your thinking is fundamentally flawed.



We all [expats] thought that the 'Property Complaints Office' would go a long way to solve some of the current problems...........but, alas! It seems most likely, that in order for the 'PCO' to have been effective, that 'too many toes would have been trodden on', which all equates to rife nepotism obstructing 'good intentions'! We have all seen the result of that 'fizzer'!



I make no apologies for stating the glaringly obvious!

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 08:37

Tenak.

If you think that then you do not read the posts properly.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 08:53

Troodo:



Are you saying that the very real concerns of expats really do concern you?



If so, why don't you and 'erolz' and other concerned TC's get together and do something about the situation; or maybe the 'status quo' is more 'convenient'?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 09:45

Teankoutou of course it should'nt be necessary for indivdualds to ever have to go to any court to seek justice in some imagainary ideal world, justice would always be done before that. In an ideal world it should not be necessary for a prionsner in the UK to have to goto the ECHR to stop the Uk violating thier rights, it should not be necessary for TC to have gone to the ECHR to be able to vote if they live in the RoC or to stop the imposition of a '6 month residency' rule before being able to claim their property in the RoC, or for expats to have to goto the ECHR to get their title deeds to property in the RoC. Back in the REAL world things are somewhat less idea.

As I have already said I am concerned with achieving effective change. Sure TC and others could demostrate and moan and throw valid accusation along with invalid one to try and effect change. Would it make any difference ? Probably not. Would rescourse to the ECHR effect change. Almost certainly it would.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 10:39

ErolZ re 67/68



Thanks for your response..



Zoots you SHOULD meet ErolZ... You'd actually find you have more in common than it would appear...

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 09:12

erolz:



What iniquities occur in RoC certainly concern me, even if they don't directly affect me.



I would so like to see the citizens of KKTC prosper, but it is glaringly apparent that the 'Powers That Be', having already consolidated their wealth, are in the process of betraying their own countrymen because, by their inaction, that is exactly what they are demonstrating to EVERYONE - you included!

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 12:21

mmmmmm: "Zoots you SHOULD meet ErolZ... You'd actually find you have more in common than it would appear..."

You can judge a man by the company he keeps. I don't associate with those who try to expose others' identities on the internet and put their safety at risk simply because they disagree with their views. Intolerance of alternative views and stifling of freedom of speech is fascist behaviour. Stirring up hatred by marginalising and targeting dissidents was practised by killers in Cyprus. But the web is ideal place for character assassination.

North Cyprus would be a better place if such troublemakers were deported back to their countries of origin and their properties returned to the legal owners. Every outsider occupying a displaced person's home is a barrier to settlement in Cyprus.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 13:09

Zoots you say the web is an ideal place for character assination and then go on to call me a facist and compare me with killers in cyprus.

In my entire history on the internet I have only exposed one person and that is yourself and what I expose is your deciet after watching it for 9 years or so. I am not intolerant of alternative views, I am intolerant of intentful lies being told. The ones you tell about me I care not about, I know who and what I am and the people that matter to me know who and what I am. However when you knowingly lie to victims of injustice by telling them that the ECHR offers them no protection and that Turkey has and will ingore ECHR rulings it does matter to me. If proving that you posted such , knowing it not to be true, involves showing the connection between your current ID here and your many other idenitites and linking them to you real world name that you yourself 'exposed' through your own mistake on NCFP then so be it.

[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 13:17

As you already know I am a citizen of the RoC and the TRNC by birth, by right and in law. You KNOW I do not occupy a displaced person home, you have been told this many times, but yet you continue to tell your lies , knowing they are lies. As to me being a barrier to a settlement in Cyprus, yet again your accusation, made from the saftey of your annoymous ID here bears no relaition to reality. I have in the past set up the only bi-communaly run and adminstrated forum. I have organised bi-communal events, like the tidying up of the GC cementary in Girne. I have attended and supported countless bi-communal events and meetings. I have worked and continue to work on bi-communal projects between Birdlife Cyprus in the south and Kuskor in the North.

Every and any accusation I have made about you, is backed up by proof and justifed as to why I make it. The accusations you have made and make about me over 9 years from multiple different ID's are not.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 13:55

zoots,



you could well add to your remarks about legal owners,

some additional factors if you want to be as impartial as you have claimed



there is a legal caveat in relation to cyprus property claims

...a month after its 2010 adverse judgement on the orams case,

the court of human rights issued a statement to the effect that it would not

in itself solve the properties dispute to evict present householders,

thus creating yet another group who would then qualify as disposessed



and they decided to recognise the immoveable properties commission,

under the umbrella of turkey, as a local remedy of chouce



never forget it was the fascist behaviour of the greek colonels and their cat's paw,

that landed all claimants in the soup



as president obama conceded in a different context yesterday,

territory transfer may be tempered by swaps, but the gc regime presently blocks it

...this would be crucial to a future solution of the cyprus "problem"

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 21:15

tenak



your concern for us tc,s is filling me up ,but guess what don,t worry about us,

we don,t need you .



musin



long live the kktc

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 21:18

zoots



you do talk such rubbish,i wonder what your outcome for cyprus would be .





musin



long live the kktc

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 23:14

but I still await clarification of zoots/pikey's remark from yes, two years ago:

that he was "90% sure of a settlement by june" (2009)



whilst we would, most of us, be happy for an agreed settlement of some sort,

was this silly throwaway remark instead merely serving to scare buyers off?

or perhaps we are victims of our "limited education" as he suggests in msg. 23

...and so unable to appreciate his postings as any more than anti-trnc spoilers?



mr pikey/zoots: the floor is yours!

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 00:47

msg 88;

What difference would it make?Would it change the simple fact that TCs have been given deeds on land/properties that was GC owned pre 74 and been allowed to sell them......without a solution?

Or,would it change the fact that,even though the world been screaming to non-cypriots not to buy pre 74 GC owned land,they still did,mainly Brits?And now are proudly showing off a piece of wortless paper!I have one too.Too embaressed to show it to anyone. :(

Or,would change the fact that,the few careful that had bought pre 74 TC owned but now can't get deeds for them for X reason/s?



At the end of the day we all fight for what we beleive in,and fighting must go on.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 12:45

yorg,



it is worth putting things into context

...you can buy property in north cyprus and when you get your kochan it is valuable,

while several recent judgements and decisions make many purchases pretty secure



until there is a formal "two-state solution" (of what we hear a great deal elsewhere!)

there will always be chinks and critics will winge, prescribing unworkable remedies ,

puffing international pronouncements and parroting euro-gobbledegook



but we hear a lot less about the deeds scandal in south cyprus:

despite ministers talking up some form of rescue, it is still true that more than

100,000 can't ever own the homes they "bought" because the developers owe money

...and remember, this is a regime that still purports to represent all of the island



behind all zoots' ranting about an admittedly far less than perfect north cyprus,

must lurk great cynicism as nothing real ever happens to shift the balance of power:



of that I am much more than "90% certain"

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 19:00

MUSIN: 'Long live KKTC!'



Keep on chanting your motto - it won't be YOU who decides, it will be Turkey!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 19:53

There is no 'Greek' land north of the 'Green Line' except for religious consecrated land belonging to the Orthodox Greek Church as much as no TC's have anything left in the 'South' except for the Mosques.

The rantings of MUSIN M, 'Long live KKTC' have a similar analogy to the nationalistic rhetoric screams of Hitler!



Richard

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 20:49

pikey/zoots



I still wait for an explanation of your 90% certain "prediction"



...but perhaps this is "too hot to handle" for a certain person



or is it that I am too "poorly educated" to warrant any reply?



andre

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 23:06

for those of you that may of missed it for one reason or another.







musin





LONG LIVE THE KKTC .

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 23:16

Msg 94

Why not start a ' KKTC Youth Movement', this should give you a few ideas, just change the flag and superimpose your face on the leader!

http://youtu.be/-GsDEHLTaWM



Richard

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
21/05/2011 23:20

Sal msg 89,

I couldn't agree more.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 00:19

message 96:



"I am 90% sure of a cyprus settlement by june" (2009)



...or so you said

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 00:20

message 96:



"I am 90% sure of a cyprus settlement by june" (2009)



...or so you said

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 00:56

'Kin heard you the first time.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 01:41

brinsley



this one is especially for you .



musin





LONG LIVE THE KKTC



YASASIN KUZEY KIBRIS TURK CUMHURIYETI

birdman



Joined: 20/09/2010
Posts: 690

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 03:21

To get this back on thread.

I really do wish that Mr Denktas had appeared in court this Friday to support the K5.

The case was put back to the last hearing of the morning giving it NO TIME to be heard, hence the postponement until next Thursday afternoon. I'm sure that had he been present, the case would have been heard earlier and he might even have had the presence to stop the ludicrous proceeding which had nothing to do with the case in hand. i.e What has it got to do with the loans to a thieving builder by a scheming bank(AKFINANS) whether the K5 have other properties to live in?

I'm even more surprised the court allowed this line of questioning as it is totally irrelevant.

Who did AKFINANS loan the money too ? That is the question that they need to answer as it was certainly NOT the K5 who knew nothing about the illegal loans.

It's a pity the Mr Denktas left the auction prior to its conclusion as I believe the scheming bank may have pulled out of their bid with him present.

HairyPeggy01


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 09:49

Thanks for bringing us back to the main point. Expat gripes are not with whether their property is greek, turkish or Exchange. It's about the ruthless and corrupt treatment many of us have received at the hands of crooks. From property owners, to developers, (tc or others), estate agents and solicitors, who have cynically exploited the complexity of purchasing here, the hazy laws and the nigh impossibility of getting redress against these crooks.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
22/05/2011 10:23

hp message 102:



fair enough



but as I have posted earlier the property problems of north cyprus,

which I am not trivializing, are found elsewhere in the club med zone



this does not help the luckless buyer, whether ripped off by crooked

agents and under-financed developers in north cyprus...

nor deprived of legal ownership in south cyprus by secret mortgages



in spain and bulgaria for example hundreds of thousands lost all their

savings by builder bancruptcy, either real or contrived



while few would not warmly welcome mr denktash's verbal support

and this is helpful for future court decisions here (we hope anyway),

I am convinved things will only basically improve when we progress

to the finally accepted "two state solution"