Ken Clarke says there is classic rape or proper rape - is he mad?

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 13:26

Rape is not sex, but power, intimidation and subjugation of the victim. The only way I see there are two types of rape is when young people (say 15 yrs of age) are in love, and consensually have intercourse, outside of that, any unwanted congress is rape and should be tried as such. Some rape is the act, some accompanied by further violence (say gang rape) either way, for the Government to posit a proposal to halve the sentences of some rapists if they make early guilty pleas diminishes both the physical and long term mentally severe trauma of the woman or male victim. The victim needs the court process to have some closure, why would they bother when a rapist may well just get a smacked hand. Not only do victims suffer, their loved ones do too. Legislation calls for a 10 year term, the usual sentence is 5 years, less with 'good behaviour', to reduce that further, is an insult. To blame women for the way they dress, or for being drunk is unacceptable; if they have lost their moral

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 13:27

continued:- compass, that is not a green light for the perpetrator to take advantage. I wish alcohol (the biggest cause of abuse on so many levels in England now) could ONLY be bought in pubs, and nowhere else. The day Fay Weldon the author, said in an interview on R4 "there is no such thing as rape" I read nothing she has written, turn her off when I hear her voice, and feel such contempt for a woman in the public eye making such an ignorant remark, it's unconscionable she can be so unworldly yet so mindless. That said, she is not alone in her social blindness.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 13:45

msge 1



I agree with what you say.



From what I saw yesterday Clarke done a big backtrack. He did not say sorry, however he did admit he said some wrong things. He was definitely squirming.

His obsession is with reducing costs. I guess we know why.



What are your thoughts on the 'I am a slut' marches that are taking place?

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 13:50

Has he totally lost the plot. Rape is Rape no matter if it happens to a man woman or child. The crime should be viewed in the context of violence and not simply in the context of sex.It is the worst sexual crime. These rapist must pay the full price. The victim has to.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 14:19

Having worked with a lot of rape victims myself of both male and female. I totally agree with all your posting Ms Garnet...





Spider,X

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 16:07

I should have qualified my understanding in law, as to what is deemed rape,though I don't concur it is such, if - under the age of consent, which is 16 - two fifteen year olds (say) have consensual sex - to me, that isn't rape, but I understand the law in its present form, deems it so. In this day and age of sexual knowledge being forced upon young innocent minds, it is no wonder their sexual lives begin oftentimes, before the age of 16, so I do believe that part of legislation should be reviewed.

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 16:44

Mrs G



consensual relations between youngsters under the age of consent is not prosecuted in the UK aas a rule. girls under the age of 12 (I know it's horrible but it happens) are not deemed capable of giving consent and in those circumstances it is statutory rape to which their is no defence.



I have a tiny bit of sympathy for Mr. Clark as I am not sure that he meant to be so crass and stupid when he said what he said. He pointed out later that there are differing sentances given to rapists so Judges already grade the crime differently. Where this thinking breaks down I suspect is that the charge of rape can also cover a multitude of other crimes which are incidental to the main one of rape.



In my view the crime is heinous and i am not in any way in favour of cut price tariffs to those pleading guilty. I am sure judges already take this into consideration in imposing some of the ridicuously low sentances that are already seen.



Harold

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 19:12

Msg 7 - If an 18 yr old boy and a 15 yr old girl have consensual sex, usually only his name becomes public, he is often thrown out of school in his last year of exams, as a 'man' he has a criminal record to take through his life, blighting his future CV, that needs to be addressed. I agree Clarke's bumbling rhetoric was his undoing, though it isn't the first time. Msg 3. The policeman was voicing what many cretinous people believe. IF one's state of dress dictates whether one is raped, where does he think that leave Nuns and women in Chador, Burka or Niqab? All who have historically been raped out of sheer cruelty and aggression. Not to mention - for instance, the appalling Rwandan massacre where the Hutu tribe raped any Tutsi woman they could get hold of, with the intent the resulting impregnations would eventually eradicate that tribe. People of every age, size, ethnicity, and sexual orientation are raped daily by inadequate dysfunctional males, ergo, the slut march is meaningless

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 20:52

msge 8



I agree with what you say, its just that the examples you use above are not the type of rapes (or motives) I would expect to see in the UK or Canada. In my mind, in the UK, the aggressive type closest to your examples would be the male who is a loner, who is socially excluded, has nothing to lose and perhaps has a strong religious belief. I would not know if he would be motivated to rape based on what women wear. Perhaps Spider does.



The barbaric rapes that you refer to, are ones that are likely to happen when males are living in a place (or era) where the mindset is one of 'its a dog eat dog world' and life is viewed as cheap. It is also likely to happen when the life conditions force males to act in a barbaric and primal way. This would be war.

This is not the type of rape we would see in the UK, although juveniles , those who are impulsive, who have been scarred and often abused themselves could commit rape, especially if they are egged on by their peers.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 20:55

How many rapes reported in 1974 in cyprus?

how many bought to justice?

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 21:32

you women..................

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 21:37

msge 11



That's got to worth a yellow card at least NN, perhaps even a sending off

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:09

My views are that rape has nothing to do with the clothes that are worn or that the rapist is of an inadequate being. And although this is an open forum I do feel that this is a diss-tasteful topic seeing that there are over 13,000 members some who may well have been a victim themselves or even the rapist.



One of my assignments was ''Do women survive rape or sexual abuse ''. A very interesting research indeed including male rape. I working along side and with two support groups that co- facilitated at the time.



Enough said thank you.



Spider,X

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:24

Strong words spider,totally understand where you are coming from.But couldnt that be said about any "sensitive" topic,



Paul.

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:26

He lost his marbles some time ago. All that advertising with a lady wearing knickers with No Entry sign with the comment "When she says no, she means no" went over his head.



Of all people to be releasing rapists early takes some beating.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:29

Yes it could newlad and I have noticed that most sensitive topics get closed..We are not judge and jury !





Well most of the time some are on here.





Spider X



PS..Hope your well newlad.x

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:34

Yes i am well thanks.Mr Clarke certainly did step out of his comfort zone today.I actually heard the programme on the radio,a woman who had been a victim of rape rang in distraught,after hearing Clarkes comments.It was very moving indeed,



Paul.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:39

If anyone stopped to listen to what Ken Clarke actually said it was quite reasonable.

I heard the interview and his point that there are degrees of "rape" is perfectly true.



The argument that by pleading guilty right from the off, thus saving a lot of distress to the victim and a lot of money being spent securing a conviction, should result in a lower sentence is worthy of consideration. That said the current sentencing policy makes little sense anyway.



In my view such things should not be used for political point scoring.

Jeannie


Joined: 04/08/2009
Posts: 3283

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:40

Statisically, many women who have suffered rape do not report it, with many citing the fact that they cannot bear to go to court, have their private lives bandied about and, even if the accused is found guilty, have to stand by and watch them handed a derisory sentence.



Goodness only knows what this "development" i.e. Kenneth Clarke's blustering about this ridiculous 'new system' will do.



It was embarrassing to watch him on the news today, trying (unsuccessfully) to back track, saying he should, perhaps, have chosen his words more carefully.



He gets my "understatement of the century" award for that one.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:43

Re-mess 18,



As in murder and manslaughter,



Paul.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 22:51

Perhaps some might take a good look at this link..



Please remember too that in my day we had no internet to turn to and Google well I did not I got right in and worked along side some very brave wonderful people.



http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/9/4/466.short





Spider,X

YFred


Joined: 06/05/2009
Posts: 1471

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 23:21

The whole thing started because there are too many prisoners and not enough prison space, but releasing Rapists and Paedos early is a mistake because they will always re-offend. There are people who are not threat to anybody but end up in prison for not paying fines or not paying tax. Release them early for good behaviour and problem solved. They can always send them to Australia.

spider


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 5527

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 23:34

Not enough prison space ha !! Take some out and give to the general public. Give them no benefits keep them altogether and shoot them in the knees..let them sit on the streets begging where no people walk by lol.



I once worked with children who had just left foster care. They had to help prepare evening meal..What '' too much for them ''' So I set the table with raw meat and veg..They came to dinner to eat so I said ''eat it '' lol

Yes most want everything for nothing...Prisoners want the very best too..hay I worked to get this laptop I type on



Spider,X

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
19/05/2011 23:54

Msg 9 - I agree my examples don't IN THE MAIN relate to England but sadly the writing is on the wall. Our society is increasingly diverse, yet those from religious, mainly Islamic societies, don't always integrate/assimilate; merely use what this country has to offer, while living in enclaves where they never learn our language, or accept our culteral tenets or mores and most worryingly, children sent abroad to endure a forced marriage equating to rape if the girl is underage and/or resists, often then brought back here to continue education or find work. We then have gormless idiots like Rowan Williams condoning Sharia Law HERE - though Government say it can only be used if the woman agrees (so funny you couldn't make that up - do our MP's even live in this world)? This is the thin end of the wedge. Honour Killings (an oxymoron of the nth degree) happen regularly, female circumcision has been carried out in Harley Street!!!! our autonomy lost due to the clowns running this country

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 00:43

As said, this truly is an emotive subject and Clarke did not explain his views well. Dependant on where statistics are taken from it is indicated that only approx 6 % of rapes end in a conviction and a 6 or 7 year sentence is the average. Surely there is no such thing as degrees of rape, all are unforgivable. As in most cases only the parties involved can know the truth of what occurred and prove positive is difficult to achieve it seems to me that anything which improves the conviction rate, perhaps not as much as all right minded people would wish, must be, at the least, an improvement. Why not make the sentence, for example, a mandatory 12 years or more, with a 50% reduction for those who immediately enter a guilty plea rather than risk 12 years or more ? Anything which takes the 6% convictions to a much larger figure surely must be seen as a step in the right direction without an adverse affect on the very small minority who plead not guilty as they are genuinely innocent.

islandgirl


Joined: 12/09/2009
Posts: 302

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 09:08

I think this is being blown out of proportion by politicians trying to score points that said I do happen to think there are differences. I believe there is a lot of difference between some horrid man with a knife in an alley and say two people having a few to many going back to one or the others house getting amorous then crying rape in the morning when it is regretted. I know it should not make any difference and I hate to sound like a prude but the way some girls go out these days is just asking for trouble, yes they should be safe whatever they wear but your house should be safe too, would you go out leaving it unlocked?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/05/2011 11:15

msge 24



I agree with your post. There are many that don't share our values, beliefs and view of the world, and then as you rightly say we have people like Rowan Williams telling us that all ways of looking at the world are valid and equal, however primitive and repressive.

Honour killings and even the odd sacrificial killing to appease the gods was supposedly in our past.



msge 13



Thanks for your views