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Sabrin


Joined: 01/03/2009
Posts: 4

Message Posted:
01/06/2011 14:28

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Message 1 of 59 in Discussion

Need maintenance company for 60 apartments with two swimming pools, garden.



Scubadoo


Joined: 08/06/2009
Posts: 162

Message Posted:
01/06/2011 16:13

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Message 2 of 59 in Discussion

Ring Paul on 0533 8475665, excellent work and fully legal.



Almaz


Joined: 30/01/2011
Posts: 156

Message Posted:
01/06/2011 17:10

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Message 3 of 59 in Discussion

Hallo Sabrin!



We are Home Sure Services, a company to make our costumers feel happy and satisfied. Heating, plumbing, maintaining.



We also sell water tanks, gas tanks, combi boilers, water pumbs, shower cabinets, solar systems and a lot of other stuff.



Prices are comparatively cheaper then other companies povide.



For more information please feel free to call me on (0392) 444 4142 or 05338217387



Sure Home Services



Karacum Branch



pemos


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 626

Message Posted:
01/06/2011 19:56

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Message 4 of 59 in Discussion

Try Sayman First Consult Cyprus



0533 869 4463



masterfinish


Joined: 23/02/2010
Posts: 173

Message Posted:
02/06/2011 09:49

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Message 5 of 59 in Discussion

I have sent you a private email with service mandate and portfolio



Thanks



Master Finish



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
02/06/2011 09:58

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Message 6 of 59 in Discussion

Why don't you put it out to tender ?

Back in the old days as an example an unscroupulas management company paid the developer to manage a site. tried to get in the back door way

A tender avoids this sort of jiggery pokery.



Putting it out to tender is more above board in my opinion.



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
02/06/2011 14:36

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Message 7 of 59 in Discussion

Pipie why dont you give it a rest you twit, you keep on with all this inuendo and crap, for everyones information the company she is once again referring to is Glencoe, a company that was sold over two years ago, true glencoe paid a sum to the developer but let us be clear here on this as it is plain on their website forum, Glencoe paid for the rental of office space at Turquoise bay, plus the rental of three shops beside the bar, one of which they "gifted" to the bar to use as a store, and also to rent the workers accommodation block on site, these are the facts

Now go and crawl into a hole and tell your lies to your friends the worms.

Mods the imbecile needs to be stopped, she is one bitter & twisted old woman



PlatinumNC


Joined: 08/03/2011
Posts: 60

Message Posted:
02/06/2011 17:21

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Message 8 of 59 in Discussion

Hi



Have emaild you,



keith


Joined: 03/04/2007
Posts: 272

Message Posted:
02/06/2011 22:46

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Message 9 of 59 in Discussion

I would say go look round a few sites and ask owners the draw up a list that could tender for the work

Keith



avraham


Joined: 28/05/2011
Posts: 17

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 00:10

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Message 10 of 59 in Discussion

Sabrin,

I take it that you are either on a new complex or one that is looking for a new company.Surely after all the stuff that has been published on here it makes sense to do a little detective work and go around the multitude of complexes both east and west of Girne.

a. You will see for your self how well the site looks

b. You will be able to get information fom the people that pay these companies wages

c. You wont have to rely on a company blowing its own trumpet.

Good luck anyway



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 02:26

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Message 11 of 59 in Discussion

a never ever be fooled by how a complex looks.



b ask if the M/ company works well with a commitee



c ask if the M/company has won the tender to manage the complex.



d ask if the M/company is open and transparent shows detailed accounts with offical receipts TO ALL OF THE OWNERS



e ask the M/C if there are any court cases againts them pending.



e ask if they have a service level agreement/constitution/contract in place.



f ask to see it ! !



That should narrow it down to a few honourable Maintennace companies operating in the TRNC.



Isabella


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 11:26

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Message 12 of 59 in Discussion

Best advice is to visit different sites and ask the people on those sites who their management company is and what they think of the service they get from their management company and what pricet they are charged. That is the way forward - don't listen to certain people on these forums as they have hidden agendas.



Also do your research as to how much the different management companies charge and for that charge what service they give.



Remember companies are businesses; you ask a business for their best price, just as you would for any other type of business. When you purchase something you do not ask a business to show you their accounts - I have a rental property in the UK and pay a company to look after it. I chose them after asking them their charges and from word of mouth I heard how reliable they were, but I certainly do not receive their accounts, nor would I expect to. If I am not happy with the service they give, I will go elsewhere.



shanselc


Joined: 23/04/2011
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 12:00

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Message 13 of 59 in Discussion

try 05338226611 Shevki.



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 12:07

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Message 14 of 59 in Discussion

Owning a proportion of the site owners have brought into, have a legal right to see the exact running costs of the site inorder to be compelled to pay there share.



If owners do not see the cost of the running of the site which includes detailed transparency then they are not compelled to pay.



I think I can safely say on your site Iseballa this is the case. You do not see any detailed accounts and your owners do not have a choice.



If this suits owners then that is ok, if it suits owners to look at the charge and not question how the M/C gets to that charge then that is ok.



However for those who do question and request detailed transparency this is ok also and also within TRNC law.

Also onwners need to know that as they own a proportion of the site that they are entitled to choose there M/C by way iof a tender.



Owners need to scrutinise there rights when buying into a complex be prepared that they can also be fed false information.



Study the TRNC apartment law



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 12:08

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Message 15 of 59 in Discussion

CON/T



study the apartment law and follow it.



Also never sign any contract until it has been scrutinised fully.



0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 12:11

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Message 16 of 59 in Discussion

Good Luck Sabrin



frankedad


Joined: 21/11/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 14:54

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Message 17 of 59 in Discussion

Contact Abode management Co they are the best one around. dont have a number but should be in the buzz book..



hodgeliz


Joined: 16/10/2010
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 19:07

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Message 18 of 59 in Discussion

And dont listen to anything pipie says as she is a liar who swears on her daughters life her house has never been up for sale "but it has", did you all notice the very nice silence after she challenged me to "PROVE IT" when I did

Pipie knows as much about running a business as she does about telling the truth, by the way mods I am only following pipsqueaks lead here, check her post on the Cyprus queen thread, lol



Chegwin


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 775

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 19:41

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Message 19 of 59 in Discussion

Not silence Hodgeliz.

Maybe imported Chinese whispers.....................



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 19:47

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Message 20 of 59 in Discussion

Hodgeliz the stalker start another thread and prove it



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 19:51

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Message 21 of 59 in Discussion

Chegwin shoosh you will be branded as one of the deciples lol

Do you notice once again she comes in on message 6 with a load of old cr*p but never does she substantiate anything, yet the mods let it go on for ever, sad really sad, they should put her and everyone else out of their misery, because it is not going to end otherwise, surely that is evident by now



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 19:58

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Message 22 of 59 in Discussion

I think another goden rule when looking for a profesional M/C is to ensure they do not threaten owners !! not a good idea it can give a very bad repuation.!!



hodgeliz


Joined: 16/10/2010
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:04

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Message 23 of 59 in Discussion

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/64593.asp



Read message 40

Then read message 50, then check out the thread at the top



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:06

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Message 24 of 59 in Discussion

start a new thread hodgeliz the stalker then we will see who is telling the truth



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:12

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Message 25 of 59 in Discussion

more to be pitied than chastised, was she ever an owner , ???



ooops sorry maybe she was & put things in her daughters name to get round the laws of the land



And never been able to pour pints just drink em, and not been in scotchland for loads a years, so once again nil points



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:20

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Message 26 of 59 in Discussion

Naughty naughty liar liar pants on fire, Billibob how many times have you been spouting off about you being top of the pub trade in Scotland, C'mon apply for the job !!



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:26

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Message 27 of 59 in Discussion

Oh well if I must, who do I write to pipie, the font of all knowledge

But please get your own original material, dont use chegwins its just not cricket



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:28

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Message 28 of 59 in Discussion

Aw shite Ive got it now, she thinks im greg, ha ha ha ha

well sorry wrong, check the time ring him and ask him where he is big shock coming your way again pipsqueak



keith


Joined: 03/04/2007
Posts: 272

Message Posted:
03/06/2011 20:41

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Message 29 of 59 in Discussion

Message 12 Isabella think you are out of order saying that some people on here have hidden agenda.

Some would just like a good M.C.



Cheapest is not always the best as for comparing to the UK that is totally different I would not stand for half of what some of these M.C. do they think they own the sites and it is owners who employ them to do a job.



When you know how much the M.C are getting in and you see what you are getting for your money you need to look at it



As you say in your last statement if I am not happy with the service they give I will go elsewhere.

You need to brush up on the apartment law



As i said you need to speak to many owners and ask if they have money in the bank or is the M.C. taking all the money

Keith



Isabella


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 12:06

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Message 30 of 59 in Discussion

You haven't changed Keith - the other half of Pipie, or should I say the attachment to Pipie whenever I say anything.



A strange last sentence. Surely you know if you have money in the bank - you will have put it there. The money you pay to the management company is not yours - you are paying them the amount they asked for in order to look after the development for owners - the owners have given them the responsibility to do certain tasks and the cost for doing that job is the amount they charge. If you are not sure of what this covers just ask and then check these things are being done. If they are you enjoy your development.



keith


Joined: 03/04/2007
Posts: 272

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 13:31

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Message 31 of 59 in Discussion

Thats the problem the M.C does not reply.



And if you do not go to tender how do you know if you are getting value for money.



The thing with you Isabella you are attached to the M.C



When i said money in the bank if you ask other sites if they pay by fund or fee then you will know who has money in the bank

Keith



batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 14:50

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Message 32 of 59 in Discussion

Fund or Fee is the real differnce here, if fund then then any moneies paid to the MC is still yours and the MC work for a fixed wage and the balance of the fund is the owners money and therefore should be properly accounted for.

If on the other hand it is fee based then you agree a fixed fee for agreed service level and the accounts of the MC are none of your business. If they make loads then good for them and if they make a loss it is their problem.

Which brings me to think that Pipie could not possibly have been selling her house because any estate agent who offered their service would refuse to disclose their accounts to her and hence she would not employ them.



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 15:01

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Message 33 of 59 in Discussion

batterboy as my abode has never been for sale and no intentions of selling your last post does not really warrent an answer.



However choice is not what you have on the Bay I understand.



NO choice to owners on fund or fee.



No choice of tender,



No choice on pretty much anything much like living in the old days really but if you and Isabella want to help run it that way and all are owners are in agreement on the Bay then good luck to you all .



However could I kindly ask do all owners have a choice ?



And if so how ?



batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 15:15

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Message 34 of 59 in Discussion

Pipie

What we do have is harmony among owners, unlike the two complexes you are associated with.

As for choice, when we ageed to purchase it was with a management company already in place and the choice was whether to accept and buy or not. So far as I can ascertain everyone on our site is happy thus far with the way things are and with the management company we have.

When I read of the troubles on the Marina which is also run the same MC I struggle to believe I am reading about the same company and have to question whether it is the MC at fault or just a few troublemakers.



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 15:46

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Message 35 of 59 in Discussion

Yep a struggle I agree but when no choice is given and apartment law is not adhered to then time for owners to stand up and be counted .



Now as I said you and Isabella are happy to go with what you have stated above good luck to you no problem, however do not knock others who you call trouble owners who just wish to follow the TRNC partment law.



Thank you for confirming no choice as been offered to owners on the Bay from M/C or committee as expected really !!



clairegordon


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 105

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 16:32

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Message 36 of 59 in Discussion

If the MAJORITY of owners are in agreement on things then that should be enough to move things on, but sadly it is not in some cases, especially in pipies case, I do not know the woman personally and may be just as well, because she comes across as a really nasty and twisted person who has tunnel vision and cannot look outside the box, it seems to be her way or no way, prior to the New floor easement law being introduced her responses were to say the least all over the place, she ran with who so ever as long as they were attacking certain people / MC.

She has no real grasp of the various situations in the TRNC and likely never will, she made a post yesterday or the day before likening the TRNC to the 'WILD WEST' she would be well reminded to take that to heart and remember it for future reference.

CG

Not a double ID but a person with something more than hot air between their ears.



sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 17:17

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Message 37 of 59 in Discussion

...... More fool you if you are giving away money to a MC and not investing that profit back into your site upgrading and purchasing thins fo rthe site what fools you are linning thie pockets





happy days I remember them well :(



keith


Joined: 03/04/2007
Posts: 272

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 17:23

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Message 38 of 59 in Discussion

Batterboy you are correct in what you say the big difference is fund or fee .



However the choice should be of the owners to make and not the M.C like on our site the Marina donít know if you have been given the choice on the bay that is up to those on the bay.



The M.C. was put in place by the company for the first year only subject to all owners agreement they could carry on the M.C on the Marina never had the agreement to carry on so there was no choice for owners



The M.C may be working ok on the Bay but on the marina that is not so it is not just about keeping the gardens its is the full package and when you cannot get the M.C to answer e-mails that is not right .And when owners are hounded and bullied that is not right.



When a M.C. wants to debate when you are out having a drink that is not right..



Like I said it is owners who own the site NOT the M.C



Keith



sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:10

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Message 39 of 59 in Discussion

1 out of 3 sites contented hmmm not bad ) I suppose you have to be nice to the one site you have left !



The fact of the matter is choice if the owners wish to choose a new MC and go to tender because they are not happy as stated 'if not happy with the service I will look elsewhere' then so be it - so there is nothing wrong with going to tender.



Its when the MC will not allow the owners freedom of choice or conduct themselves in a professional to do that when the problems occur after all if you are that good what have you to fear as Company?.



It is also a fact that if the 'new floor of easement' is NOT followed then you have little chance of chasing any non-payers on your site -



When we switched companies it was a breathe of fresh of air, we know who has paid, we take action against those that dont, we invest in our site, we buy new equipment, and are continually investing in the future of the site.



How it should be



Chegwin


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 775

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 21:53

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Message 40 of 59 in Discussion

On most sites majority rule, minority try to rule, thats the real problem !!



sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 22:57

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Message 41 of 59 in Discussion

nah MC's think they rule



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 23:10

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Message 42 of 59 in Discussion

Batterboy love your sense of H



Rosie64


Joined: 13/11/2010
Posts: 72

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 00:01

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Message 43 of 59 in Discussion

Let's be honest nobody will win this argument ...its been debated on many previous threads and bored us all stupid ...why don't yu all go and have drink and calm down ... some may say you've had that drink...



Chegwin


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 775

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 05:26

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Message 44 of 59 in Discussion

Mods.

I did not write post 41.

Could you please check the isp it was sent from and inform me?



flutterby


Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 214

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 08:31

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Message 45 of 59 in Discussion

Oh this has gone around and around has it not.

Just one thing I would like to add. It is re Company accounts. Nobody I do not think is actually talking of seeing Company's account, BUT each Company should have SITE accounts, and this is what owners are legally entitled to see. In fact, it is a LEGAL requirement of a MC to have site accounts, with detailed receipts kept in a chronological order whether the site is run under fund OR fee, as stated in the Apartments Law. And owners are entitled to inspect THESE accounts and receipts.

We also have a MC company in the UK and whilst we would never ask for their Company accounts, we are provided and would expect to be provided with statements appertaining to the running costs of our property there.



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 10:15

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Message 46 of 59 in Discussion

We also rent out property in the UK and have a contract where renter/ owner/ management company adhere to obligations as per contract so before any one rents or manages all knows what is expected of them.



Now buying on a complex in the TRNC is different, and this discussian is different. First of all your contract needs to state that you own a proportion of that site and if you do then you are responsible for the contribution for essential repairs of that site per proportion.



If it does not say you own a proportion of the site it could be argued that the developer is responsible for all of the repairs if the developer wishes to remain the main owner of the communal areas.



If you do own a proportion of the site then owners have a choice on who maintains that site and If majority of owners agrees then you sign a contract ONLY then are owners responsible for paying a contribution to the running of the complex.



However when owners first purchased on a complex 'con't



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 10:32

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Message 47 of 59 in Discussion

A developer had an obligation to put in a Management company to run the site in some cases a time was specified in others not. This is where it started to get confusing to all involved some Management companies thought and in some cases still do think they are there to manage the site for indefinatly !! WRONG WRONG WRONG !!



Owners have a rights to a choice and the only way forward for all to be above board by way of a tender.



Sabrin I do hope you use a Tender for the management of your complex.





















































































This is where the apartment law was updated and came into force and this is where all should abide by it.

































Sabrin I do hope this is debate is interesting for you and I do hope that you set in place all what is right for you development.



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 10:48

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Message 48 of 59 in Discussion

Ooops sorry for the spacing on my last post, dunno what i did wrong



sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 11:04

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Message 49 of 59 in Discussion

message 44 it has indeed been debated - you can take the horses to water but you cannot make them drink it



Good point message 46 , when I refer to accounts I do indeed me the site accounts of a particular site of course but good to point out.



It beggars belief that some owners 'that are satisfied' and want to rock up to 'just nice gardens' are actually doing their whole site and fellow a dis-service and whilst there are owners and Maintance Companies around that will take advantage of this, the topic will always run and run.



I think it is very frustrating that there is a law that should be followed on how to run a site and that some maintenance companies do not follow that law and indeed flout it to their own benefits, these are indeed the ones to be avoided.



That said on a positive note their are good Companies out there working with elected committees and owners alike on every level so just have to be careful.



clairegordon


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 105

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 11:15

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Message 50 of 59 in Discussion

Main problems in the TRNC were when the boom was at its height, people rushed to buy properties off plan from unscrupulous salesmen who told them anything to get sales, these people for the most part were unaware of the way things work here and in many other parts of the Med and indeed beyond, they thought that everything in the garden would be rosy for their £40K/£60K purchase, and Brit standards would prevail -wrong !

What they failed to realise is that cheap property comes with a price to pay, and that price was simply that the builders here were themselves learning and thought that when a property on a complex was built and the soil rotovated then the property was finished and many gullible people signed hand over papers to that effect and on most of those doc's there was a clause that the developer would put in place a m/c for the first 1/2/3 years at agreed fees.

However a few were dis-satisfied and disaffected and started right away to make a nuisance of themselves

Cont



clairegordon


Joined: 18/11/2010
Posts: 105

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 11:20

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Message 51 of 59 in Discussion

to the extent that developers dug their heels in and said OK if thats the way you want to play it, you will suffer in the long run, and now that is what is happening, I know of three complexes where this is indeed the case and has been for the past couple of years with no end in sight, and big rises in fees to come because of some peoples shortsightedness.



There will also be other fall out I fear



I have also noted in several threads on this subject lately that some posters have softened their stance, but is it too little too late ?, I wonder



sienna


Joined: 09/01/2009
Posts: 1627

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 12:04

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Message 52 of 59 in Discussion

you are not wrong but when the terms is up 1/2/3 years that is when you as owners should be free to go to tender without the incumbant suppliers interference .... that is also when it goes wrong.



Voting should go on the majority that attend AGMs and or return their vote and not on owners that cannot be bothered to vote or attend !



Good luck all it can be achieved



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 12:12

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Message 53 of 59 in Discussion

When buying on a complex look around if it is a complex that consists of a few blocks count up the amount of money that owners have purchased to turn that complex into a multi million pound complex. Simply do this by adding up the total cost of each apartment.



So now we have owners that have now purchased into a multimillion pound investment and by buying on that complex own a proportion of a mutimillion pound complex ''remember only if the contract states you own a proportion.''



This now means that the mutimillion pound complex that owners have purchased on blows away the suggestion that owners who purchased cheap should have a price to pay for buying cheap. WRONG WRONG WRONG



This multimillion pound complex if managed correctly adhering to the apartment law should increase in value.



Of course owners need to also get deeds to strenghen their position in order to force any positive way forward.



What owners need to establish is who owns what ?

'' REALLY IMPORTANT''



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 13:17

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Message 54 of 59 in Discussion

Sabrin



Could I ask you ? who owns communal areas on your complex ? owners in proportion owners ? or Developer?



billybob


Joined: 29/03/2008
Posts: 576

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 18:51

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Message 55 of 59 in Discussion

What do you mean "owners in proportion owners" you make no sense at all ??

What a load of pis* you "own" nowt till you've got your deeds, especially on TQB it's been well stated in minuted meetings wi the developers that people own the square meterage of their apartment, nothing else, the grounds are communal AFTER you have your Kocans issued, till then they are the property of the developers, you can argue all you like - as you do pipie, but thems the FACTS.

Again you can say why are we paying maintenance then, simples if you dont pay you end up wi a pig sty as you have just now, summers here and ONE yes ONE pool up and running, whose fault is that, again simples them that dont/didn't pay.

Theres some in their coffins now that didn't live to see there places blossom, and likely to be more before its all sorted out, all I can say is I hope those people that refused payment are proud of them selves, and them that aren't paying now can suffer as well, hell mend 'em.



veysel


Joined: 07/06/2011
Posts: 193

Message Posted:
08/06/2011 10:45

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Message 56 of 59 in Discussion

Dear Sabrin,



Meps would be interested in arranging a meeting and site visit so we can prepare a Service Level Agreement for your perusal.



Please contact Jackie on mepsltd@gmail.com



Office number 0392 8244710



Pipie


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
08/06/2011 10:53

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Message 57 of 59 in Discussion

Hope you get a response Jackie. Would have been nice if Sabrin had a responded on here !!



hodgeliz


Joined: 16/10/2010
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
08/06/2011 20:01

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Message 58 of 59 in Discussion

Perhaps people should be able to spot a wind up



Scoty


Joined: 23/05/2010
Posts: 846

Message Posted:
08/06/2011 20:17

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Message 59 of 59 in Discussion

Msg 59 - it's not 'the' site is it?



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