R12 gas and Water machines

daffodils


Joined: 11/11/2008
Posts: 184

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 04:07

Hi, I wonder if anyone can help, we bought TWO Kelvinator water machines with fridges last year, silver brand new. They have BOTH now stopped working in the fact that the fridge doesn't work and the water does not get cold.



We took them back to the shop we bought them from in Lapta and were told it is because we have too many power cuts. so that would mean that everybody's water machines have ceased to work !!!!



However, we then took them to be repaired only to be told that it is a gas problem (which is what we suspected) but the bad news is that R12 gas disappeared off the island and is not used anymore.



Does anybody know if our water machines can be converted or if anybody has R12 gas anywhere, these were expensive machines and if we can get them mended it would be better. The guy we bought them off has offered to give us 40tl discount of new one's.........how kind of him !!!!!

daffodils


Joined: 11/11/2008
Posts: 184

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 04:10

oops!!! forgot to say the moral of this story is be careful what water machines you buy, (and from whom) as these machines (although they look good) must be old stock as from what we understood R12 gas disappeared over 3 years ago

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 06:29

Iceman may have some R22.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 06:33

The same applies to a/c. The old a/c gas was R22 which has been banned and has now been replaced with R410a. There are still unsold R22 machines knocking about so be careful of anything which seems a bargain.

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 08:05

Dichlorodifluoromethane (R-12), usually sold under the brand name Freon-12, is a chlorofluorocarbon halomethane (CFC), used as a refrigerant and aerosol spray propellant. Complying with the Montreal Protocol, its manufacture was banned in the United States along with many other countries in 1994 due to concerns about damage to the ozone layer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dichlorodifluoromethane

susief


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 529

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 09:03

Is there an alternative replacement gas you can use or does it make all old AC units and water cooler units redundant?

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 09:23

R-12 was used in most refrigeration and vehicle air conditioning applications prior to 1994 before being replaced by R-134a, which has a lower ozone depletion potential. When older units leak, retrofits to (1,1,1,2-tetrafluoroethane) are recommended. Retrofits to R-134a require complete flushing and filter/dryer replacement to remove the mineral oil. Mineral oil used for R12 is not compatible with R-134a. Some oils designed for conversion to R-134a are advertised as compatible with residual R-12. New rubber hoses which are R-134a compatible may be needed for the same reason.



In systems where R-134a is not practical, R-409A (60% R-22; 25% R-124; 15% R-142b) may be directly added to an R-12 system without oil change although a filter change is always recommended. R-409A usually runs on the low side of 12 p.s.i. while R-12 usually runs on the low side of 10 p.s.i. R-409A runs at higher pressures and is less efficient but works quite well.



Answer to msg 6

Not worth the trouble!!

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 09:28

iceman, I do appreciate the effort of getting all that information across but if I do need to make the change because of a failed system, why would it not be worth the trouble?

Is it cost prohibitive i.e. by the time you had made the required changes what would you have spent?

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 09:41

considering the low cost of the new water coolers on the market.....it's not cost effective.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 09:46

To those which do not understand everything:

Vaughan did NOT made a spelling mistake:

R12 is banned since a long time.

since 2000 the use of R22 in new application is permitted (so much about "old stock", i would rather say : cheap chinese, half illegal (?, TRNC may did not realise whats going on) equipment as the Kelvinator water cooler....

since beginning of 2010 only recycled R22 can be used for repairs.

in 3 years R22 will be totally banned, old and bigger machines must me retrofitted (new compressor and different gas), smaller applications as a/c and eg a watercooler will go to the rubbish as retrofitting is too expensive.

Maybe a new threat, Vaughan?

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 09:47

sorry threaD, but its a threat, too

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 10:00

How would we find out the system we have all ready is utilising which gas and compressor system and when you say only recycled R22 can be used for repairs, is that available in North Cyprus or does it basically mean that if you have , as I understand it, R12, r-134a, r-409a or r22 systems you are going to need a new ac/ water cooler system if the existing one fails due to gas issues.



I am sure there is potential for a future plan with regards to customer requirements if someone were to put the information together and let the public know but it is up to you guys.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 11:21

Its not really "my competence" to say here more about technical subjects, especially when the equipment "goes big"....

which gas your appliances needs is usually written somewhere inside or outside. R12 is banned and msg 1 is in trouble. R22 seem to be available, but this will fade out, maybe soon.

retrofitting with the new gases as r-134a, mybe new compressors are needed too, and others seem only costeffective when the systems are bigger... cool rooms, hotels etc...

Vaughan keeps saying and sayying not to buy these cheap a/c and buy the better eg inverter driven a/c which are more expensive, but also the compressors are much more energy efficient.

What you can read here in cyp 44? ".... beko, arcelik, toros..." nice guys and service and cheap, very good. So, start to save some money for new a/c systems, the ones you have all will go the the dustbin soon.

waddo


Joined: 29/11/2008
Posts: 1966

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 12:35

Guess this will apply to lots of older air con systems in cars as well - gloom for me with a 93 Pajero and air con that no longer works!

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 07:25

The idea of banning R22 gas is that as R22 systems lose their gas through poor installation, (common problem in TRNC) the lack of available gas will mean that the system can't be regassed and therefore becomes obsolete, thus eventually phasing R22 systems out completely.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 07:43

I am a little confused guys, I am sorry but I am. There are comments that R22 is banned, there are comments that it can only be used if recyscled, there are commetns that it will be banned in three years and there are commetns that it is being phased out.

I conclude that it would be stupid of me to go and buy a system with R22 and I now understand the gas contained in the system should be printed somewhere, my question is what should I be looking for that is likely to be around for a while. Bearing in mind that you guys have a clue about this and I most obviously don't, please tell me what product I should be looking for, not a particular manufacturer as that would be an aesthetic or practabcality choice for design or fit but which gas and compressor/condenser or even compensator system would you advise me to get.



Thanks in advance.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 09:27

Sorry to confuse you.



The PRODUCTION of R22 gas has been banned. The production of R22 equipment is being/has been phased out, depending on which country we are talking about. Eventually, there will be no R22 gas available, hastening the demise of R22 equipment worldwide, other than bootleg R22 smuggled into the country.



Modern r410a a/c equipment will be clearly marked as such on the packaging and on the data plates on the equipment. If you can't see R410a written anywhere come to you own conclusions.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 09:58

Thanks for the clarification, it was probably clear enough but as usual I over thought it and screwed up my own mind.



Thanks again Vaughan and the other guys, I am now scared to go and look at what I bought less than 6 months ago.

blinky



Joined: 07/12/2008
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 18:18

Drop in replacement for r12 is FX56

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
06/06/2011 09:09

Hi David, Bring us a bottle, next time you come over.

karlmuller


Joined: 16/04/2009
Posts: 83

Message Posted:
06/06/2011 11:22

The repair man in Karakum can change all the bits and regas it, Ive just had mine done.Cost 160ytl.