Refused permission pre 1974 title

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 16:01

It would seem that the only property worth buying in TRNC is indeed not. Please see the advice i received today below from my Advocate



"The attachment that arrived recently says that your permission to purchase is declined due to national security reasons.



We have been privately advised that the policy of the government is to make it difficult for foreign buyers to acquire Turkish title on pre-1974 properties. The government feels that these were targeted by foreign buyers speculatively. If this decision cannot be overturned you will need to nominate a trustee to take title. Other clients of ours, experiencing similar problems, have either nominated personal trustees or a trust company. Any personal trustee must be a Turkish Cypriot citizen. "



Do you really think it is a good idea to vest our interest to a 3rd party . I can see where this could lead,



National Security...Mmm I am a tax consultant, My wife a Nurse. Mr Robb wanted by interpol andl he was OK!!!!?????

ivebinad


Joined: 03/06/2011
Posts: 224

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 16:07

Mmmmmmm tax consultant sounds dodgy lol

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 17:08

The powers that be, whoever they are, are certainly discriminatory against foreigners! This has happened a few times this last year, and really does now appear to be the Government's Policy.

If they do feel that these Pre-74 Turkish Title Deeded Properties are being targeted for speculative reasons, well then isn't selling off Greek Cypriot Deeded Property even more speculative?!

Nominated Trustees is a risk. Some Lawyers push this as they earn a recurring annual admin fee and any others referring clients also earn an introduction and recurring percentage of the annual admin fee which is a nice income if you have already referred 100 clients!

Not one single Lawyer has answered my questions about security of property in Trusts. What happens if the Trustee who has shares in the Trust/Company/Properties, has financial problems or goes bust or dies? They shouldn't have financial problems with a couple of hundred clients paying annual admin fees (a real good milk cow) but it's the TRN

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 17:51

If I've learned anything here it is that renting is the way to go.

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:00

never forget that "Cypriot" means: Create Your Personal Real Income Off Tothers ...

Renting is the way as long as costs are kept reasonably low ...

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:00

Goes without saying.

Frenchman


Joined: 12/10/2010
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:04

I have exactly the same problem ....

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:11

msg 5;

What'd your description to 'Brits' that had bought other peoples lands/properties be?

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:18

You reap what you sow

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:27

There is no doubt the PTP system is being misued. Its purpose was never meant to be a means by which the current TRNC ruling party can arbitarily change policy on if non citizens are allowed to buy pre 74 land in the north behind closed doors and free from any public or parliamentary view and discussion of such a prohibition. Yet this is how it is being used at the moment and such use not only unecessarily creates problems for foreign buyers that could be avoided easily it is almost certainly in my view a breach of the sellers right to property under the ECHR charters. It should be challenged in my view but I accept that such is not an easy task.

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:40

My sentiments exactly. I completely agree that TRNC Government is walking all over the British contingent.



The Problem with the trust route is that the title as you appreciate is fully transferred to a 3rd party - Lawyer. I am pleased with my lawyers, but things and times change so who knows what's around the corner for the firm in the future.



I don't do risk which is the reason for purchasing pre 1974 - 5 years ago I might add! I didn't purchase it to lose money, just thought it was a nice spot. Wish I hadn't bothered.



So they have turned the lights out on 1974 properties for foreigners. Next on their agenda will be the extermination of the exchange land owners or perhaps they might just leave this to the EU courts to give the land back to the original owners. The British owners are stuck with the mess, A massive misselling with the local builders having long since run with the money. This could be one of the biggest cons in History!

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:50

Msg 8:

perhaps something like ... Batty Remiss Insane Trusting Supporters ... of North Cyprus

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:53

Re Mssage 10



Thanks. Unfortunately the TRNC are all too soon to point out that no one else has jusisdiction in the TRNC. If they had then all of the exchange and TMD properties would have been bulldozed by now.



The Governments is totally corrupt and underhand in its dealings. I seem to recall some years ago an overnight change in the VAT rate on properties and then subsequent repeal. Absolute & total disgrace!



Can the last foreign property owner leaving TRNC please turn off the lights.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 18:54

I was told the government are smugly satisfied that no foreigner can afford to, never mind dare, challenge their blatantly fraudulent conspiracy re. PTP on pre '74TT.



They are quite content to continue accepting EU 'handouts' whilst simultaneously discriminating against EU citizens, ignoring basic human rights norms - especially re. property, yet expect acceptance and sympathy from EU/UN regarding being embargoed.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:03

msg4 roomy..".Renting is the way to go"



Take a good look at the build quality/ standards here,and not just the title/ deeds issues," renting is the only sane option" ...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:07

The use of PTP as a 'hidden' means to arbitarily change policy on foriegners purchasing pre 74 title in the TRNC affects all non citizens as I understand it , not just EU citizens. As I have stated before my belief is that the clearest and easiest way to challenge such use of PTP to arbitarily restrict sales of pre74 title in the TRNC would be for a TC seller to challenge it in the ECHR. This in reality would not need to cost much. The real issue as I see it is it will take years to get heard in the ECHR but even the threat of being heard may prompt change. There certainly are TC who historicaly have both dared and afforded to challenge TRNC laws using the ECHR leading to massive changes that affect everyone in the TRNC, like the opening of the borders to the South. Such a challenge to PTP is therefore in my view not an impossible possibility, regardless of how smug the current government may be about it.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:22

Emmo67, breaches of human rights by the TRNC ARE under the jurusdiction of the ECHR. This has been tested time and again. The ECHR deems Turkey to be the 'putable party' for breaches of ECHR charters on human rights in the TRNC. Turkey has to abide by ECHR judgments against it or risk the ultimate sanction of explusion from the Council of Europe. These are just facts. Many cases have been brought to the ECHR for breaches of their charters on human rights by TRNC (with Turkey as the putable party) and in every case to date where the ECHR has ruled in favour of the person bringing the case Turkey has paid compensation deemed payable by the court AND it has changed laws and/or rules or procedures so that no such further breaches can occur. Jurisdiction is not the issue. Even cost is not a massive issue, you can apply to the ECHR as an indivdual at no cost what so ever. The biggest limitation of the ECHR is time taken for a case to get heard.

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:23

Erolz, Message 16



Up the creek without a paddle I think. Reaslistically I am not going to line any lawyers pockets with this and Unfortunately I will have to now contemplate selling which is a shame. Isnt it odd that all the brits will end up with Exchange land and Cypriots with Pre 1974. I wonder why......?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:26

I understand your view on this emmo67. I am just pointing out that it is not true to say the ECHR has no jusrisdiction in the TRNC. It has jusrisdiction. What is more it has real means to enforce it rulings even against the wishes of members states (which include Turkey). Its biggest weakness is time taken to hear cases and time it takes to force reluctant member governments to make the changes they have to having made a ruling.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:36

erolz;

All the while these people carry on living in denial,nothing will change other then moaning about whatever situation they are in.And I do not blame TRNC government one single bit about restrictions on pre74 titles,being sold to none citizens,because now that the gold rush on cheap property buying is over,they have logged themselves on pre74s.



Of course,I'm not tarring all with same brush with my above comments................like some!





Always said it,always will,your problems lies with the government/s of your origin country!Only when there is a solution in TRNC yiour problems will be recognised,which is the whole of the reason of being warned against buying.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:44

Yorg I do not have a problem if the TRNC government were to discuss a new law that limited the sale of pre 74 property in the TRNC to non citizens. For me the problem is the arbitary and hidden nature of using PTP this way, when that was never the purpose or intention of PTP legislation. If TRNC wants to limit such sales then just say so openly. The problem at the moment is the lack of transparency and the arbitary nature of how PTP is being used to limit such sales. It is also the arbitary nature that is in conflict with the ECHR, not the concept of limiting such sales. Under ECHR you can not ARBITARILY restrict someones right to enjoy property they own (which includes the right to sell it). You can as a state restrict an indivduals right to property (including their right to sell it) but only under specific conditions, and an hidden aribtary decision by council of ministers using PTP legisaltion does NOT meet those conditions. Clear leglslation restricting such may well do.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:49

Yorgozulu,



"I do not blame TRNC government one single bit about restrictions on pre74 titles"



But you have to blame them for allowing people to buy, register their contracts, take VAT and taxes before informing them!



Why not just be honest and above board and state that they will not give PTP on Pre 74 to foreign purchasers?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:50

Is there not a warning on the British foreign office web-site?

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:51

erolz;

Fair enough and I agree.

But,do you not find my way as the easiest?See if 'they'(the few individuals) can still get away with what they do!

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:51

Yorgo



"And I do not blame TRNC government one single bit about restrictions on pre74 titles,being sold to none citizens,because now that the gold rush on cheap property buying is over,they have logged themselves on pre74s"



I would have no problem with this policy provided the 'government' had the decency and honesty to make it clear that pre 74 title is not available to foreigners. Please explain why they are unable to do this ??



" All the while these people carry on living in denial,nothing will change other then moaning about whatever situation they are in."



I do not understand how you can use the above statement against people who paid a significant premium to get pre 74 'legal' title. They have tried to do the right thing in the eyes of both TC's and GC's but are still being shafted by the TRNC authorities.



Paul

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:52

message 20

Yorgoluz

We bought this property years and years ago and paid 50% more than for an exchange property because we wanted safe title. Don't understand your comments re denial. I researched the position carefully and was unhappy about purchasing exchange or TMD property.



Your government I regret is a complete shambles! Erolz comments exonerate this.

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:57

Paul



Thanks - hit the nail on the head!!!!!!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 19:57

Yorg as I am sure you know I always have the utmost sympathy for your views. I do not always agree with them but I do always understand where you are comming from and why. I also have a grudging admiration for your 'bluntness' even if at times I think it can cause friction that could be avoided without it. It is not 'my way' but it is yours and you are unfailling consistent as far as I can see, which is something I always respect.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 20:01

message 23.



No there is a warning about buying GC property. Pre 74 was seen as being undisputed property therefore safe to purchase.



There is however an updated warning advising all not to buy in the TRNC because of the problem of obtaining deeds, North and South.

ivebinad


Joined: 03/06/2011
Posts: 224

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 20:23

Msg 20 is that a true picture of you?

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 20:23

Emmo 67,



Have you thought what to do about this situation? I would advise against a Trust, due to the costs involved. You will pay taxes and administration fees PLUS ongoing yearly fees. At the end of the day, does this make your property any safer? Do you have faith that all will be above board and the Trustees/Advocates will safeguard your interests?



Of course you can just continue to live/holiday in the property and hope that the builder is honest and does not run into financial problems. If he does you have to remember that your property is his asset. If memorandums are put on "his" property you will be responsible for paying his debt or risk the property being auctioned. Having been in this situation, I don't envy you.



The other option is to sell, preferably to a TC who will not have this problem. This has to be the safest option but it depends on the level of risk you are willing to take.



Unfair, underhand and criminal ..........but typical of TRNC.

misunderstood


Joined: 08/04/2011
Posts: 1004

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 20:29

Join Stop the blackmail in north cyprus facebook group and help us make a noise about this and all the other unfair practices here.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 21:49

erolz;

Respect goes both ways,brother.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 23:25

when i changed my lawyer he asked why ? i said look at this mate , ok he said nuff said . lmfao

http://youtu.be/sYeluieiudc

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 23:27

Msg 1: "We have been privately advised that the policy of the government is to make it difficult for foreign buyers to acquire Turkish title on pre-1974 properties. The government feels that these were targeted by foreign buyers speculatively."

As opposed to seized GC properties - which you all jumped eagerly on. The only people who come out of this with any honour or credibility are those who succeeded or actively attempted to buy legal pre-74 titles. And by doing so did not participate in worsening the political situation in Cyprus for their own selfish ends.

You have to laugh.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 23:53

Well that's all well and good Zoots but what thanks did these politically correct people get?



The only people that did not worsen the political situation in Cyprus are those that had the sense not to buy at all.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
04/06/2011 23:56

Yes, Bradus. We mustn't forget them. They weren't carpetbaggers either!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 00:27

msge 36



"The only people that did not worsen the political situation in Cyprus are those that had the sense not to buy at all."



Bradus, this is one of the most honest statements I have ever heard on this forum



Imo Pre 74 properties are vastly undervalued. Tc's have sold their pre 74 properties, their crown jewels at substantially discounted rates (compared to the south). I am sure that many TCs resent this as many have probably sold to raise funds. The TC government knows this, hence they are now preventing foreigners from cherry picking the only legal land and grabbing themselves a bargain. Purchasers of 74 land would be set to make a substantial return on their investment should there be a solution, as would those who have purchased esdeger land, however GC land carries a much higher risk and the return may not be realised



The TRNC government should clearly state that pre 74 properties are not available to foreign purchasers.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 00:33

Ilovecyprus,



"The TRNC government should clearly state that pre 74 properties are not available to foreign purchasers"



This is all I ever asked for!

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 00:43

It's all wrong, it boiled my brain for a long time but in the cool light of day I knew it was all wrong.

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 09:14

Bradus 67



Totally agree, I might add that when we bought I said One remit was not to profit from any one elses misfortune be they Greek or otherwise. For this reason and the fact that Turkish or international title was 100% safe (Mmmm...) We proceeded



On reflection I have no interest in using a trust and thank you for your accurate assessment of the charges. So if the Government cannot act honorably and correct their position I guess we must sell the Villa. Just wanted somewhere nice and warm for the winter when I retire really.



I might add thatWe were really lucky to find an honest builder who has become great friends with us over time. We were also lucky as We weren't prepared to buy off plan, and that in one stroke saved us a whole heap of potential risk and problems.



I am quite happy with the position as it is for the time being until we can sell it. Any one want to buy a 4 bed villa? Cypriots only please! F*** off the rest of you, You are not wanted here.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 12:15

It was a while ago when we purchased so please correct me if i am wrong.

On the application did it not ask for a reason for your purchase? Like, retirment, holiday home ect?

To me what is written above sounds like they don't want to sell to foreigners who are just buying to speculate on the property market.

We have pre 74 Turkish title and had no problems obtaining our PTP, but we did say it would be a permanant home/ relocation. So maybe its something as simple as that?

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 13:39

ilovecyprus,

Would you care to say which title deed category of property you bought, if any?

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 13:46

Blade,,,",home/relocation"



I think it has more to do with "Reallocation".ie 74 Turkish title for Turkish cyp's only ...........

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 14:08

Blade, there are several sites where there are an equal mix of holiday homes and residential. It has made no difference to PTP refusal.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 14:12

how many advertised "pre-1974-tt" properties are really just that?



it is believed that by the modern era, ethnic greek cypriots,

with a little help from their church friends, had seized 90% of the land and houses on the island

...not bad going, in less than a hundred years!



discerning the truth of whether there is an unofficial block restricting sales of pre-74-tt is elusive,

but what is noteworthy is the "unionists" unsupported assertions that there isn't



the orams case has had three relevant outcomes in this context:



firstly as some waited with baited breath, there was no follow-on with any similar show-trials



secondly, the court approved a local remedy for claimants,

although "obama swops" are being blocked by government and land office idiots in the south



thirdly in a surprise statement early in 2010, the court agreed for the first time

that current residents and their families were also entitled to some security from eviction

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 14:15

I've said this on here before and will carry on doing so until it goes into your ***** heads,the porpuse of PTP requirement is because some of you WILL be refused!The fact that you must obtain your PTP before buying but can't apply for it before buying is another matter.



Next time I'll blame my animals for going in to neighbour's garden,or should I blame the neighbour for letting them in?

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 15:23

Yorgo



Nice point but You forget that you purchased and own the neighbours garden so the analogy doesn't really work because technically the neighbours garden is now your garden.



Can I mention we purchased brefore the Orams case surfaced so that sort of takes us out of the speculative group I think.



The issue is the underhand and dishonest way in which the TRNC Government is acting. Once the EU handounts cease the TRNC will once again extendi its sneaky arms to foreign investors.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 15:54

message 48:



there should be warnings for the foreign investor in north cyprus property

but this is of course equally true elsewhere in the sunny countries, for example:



phantom companies and transfer of ownership denying possession in bulgaria

lost life savings due to apparent developer bankruptcy in spain

unlikelyhood of thousands gaining ownership in south cyprus mortgage scam

interminable and incomprehensible beauracracy, and notary questioning, france

maintenance hikes, shoddy building, invalid planning applications elsewhere



but despite what you say about the orams case, you should have known about

the un trucks that shipped refugees to the north and the south of the island in 1974,

...well before the situation stabilized as it has now

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 16:25

Yorg message 8

''What'd your description to 'Brits' that had bought other peoples lands/properties be?''



It would be no worse than those'Turkish Cypriots' who sold other peoples lands/properties.



Mute point as to who is the worse,me for knowingly buying something that I know doesnt legally belong to the seller, or the seller who knowingly sold me something he has no right to sell on.



We were always told that TRNC title was legal in the TRNC ,but the authorities have shown that to be a con, otherwise why differentiate between the two when it comes to getting permission.



speculation! If thats the case then Govt are saying that only pre74 is worth buying as an investment. Maybe you should pass that onto estate agents.

Trying to prevent speculation in the North, Dont worry I think they have succeded in that over the years.

Only an idiot would speculate on property these days ,especially holiday homes. Maybe the trnc govt havent kept up to date on economic situation.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 17:05

Andre

The things you mention about other countries are of course true.

However.

Are the Bulgarian phantom companies breaking the law and liable for prosecution ,or are they safe in what they do ,behind a dodgy legal system.

Did the spanish companies go bankrupt because of the financial situation and the housing market.(silly boys,why didnt they just steal the money back by remortaging the land and let the banks with support of the legal system, evict the owners)That way they could have avoided bankruptcy

South mortgage scams , are they recognised as illegal or does the legal system think its normal business practise and therefore excludes the perpetrators from punishment and the victims from legal protection.



''interminable and incomprehensible beauracracy, and notary questioning, france''

Wouldnt want that in NC eh.

Incomprhensible-I bought and sold in France and found it easy,the notary questioning was for my protection.

Interminable-as in 5 years for PTP?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 17:29

girne 29,



I take issue with many statements in your posting



it is important to see the distinction between investing in north cyprus,

and "someone else's" place since there is no possibility of said claimant

grabbing it unless they become involved in a compensation application:



...this cannot be a universal scheme, oh that was rejected in 1974:

and by and large almost no foreigner ever had to make any payment



and no government on earth has said pre-74 "should" be invested in



there is no dividing line between speculation and speculative investment

...this is your "value judgement" based on a personal viewpoint



"only an idiot" etc line 11: but all anecdotal evidence suggests that canny

investors are buying now prices have become very cheap



lastly, concerning the con referred to by the mysterious "authorities" you mention,

this would be more relevant in relation to normal sales rip-offs in cub-med states



that's all, vultures are gathering overhead

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 19:26

I really resent the accusation that because I 'bought' an apartment in NC (built on pre 74 Turkish title land) in 2005 that somehow I'm a 'speculator'. Does this mean that anyone buying a property anywhere is a 'speculator' by default? Are said 'speculators' bad people, to be accused & abused simply because, as in my case, I wanted a holiday apartment in what i thought was a great place to take a holiday?

It also now appears that I am to be vilified because I took note of what I was told when I bought, that pre 74 title was the only safe title, that PTP would be a mere formailty; that the law in NC was based on English law.

I shall put on my hair shirt and beat myself.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 19:35

I am sorry to say this but in truth anyone who bought in North Cyprus post 74 to some degree was 'profiting from the suffering of Cypriots'. This is true as far as I am concerned if you bought property with disputed title or undisputed pre 74 title. The plain truth is that all property in the North post 74, disputed title or non disputed title, was considerably cheaper that it would have been without the 'suffering of Cypriots'. I do not make moral judgments about it but to claim that buying disputed title is profiting from the suffering of cypriots but buying non disputed is not, for me just does not wash. If the former is true then so is the later, the only difference is degree. At least thats my view.

caulkhead


Joined: 03/01/2009
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 19:54

Erolz - using your logic anyone who buys a property in the north of England is profiteering from the misfortune of those who happen to live in an area that is not as popular as the southeast of England. It is all about supply and demand and nothing to do with profiteering from suffering. There was less demand for property in the TRNC than in the ROC so prices were lower. Without any outside demand they would now be an far greater differential in property prices between the two states. Do you think that would have been of more economic benefit to the local population of the TRNC?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:03

Its just my personal view caulkhead. Property prices in the north of england are as you say simply a matter of supply and demand. In my personal view demand in North Cyprus was affected by what had happened in Cyprus, that is the 'suffering of Cypriots'. Without that 'suffering' , for example if there had simply been a happy independance since the end of British colonial rule in 1960, then demand for property in the North post 74 would have been much greater and thus prices much higher.

Again let me re emphasise I am NOT making a moral point here. I actualy think the whole argument that buying in the north was profiting from cypriot suffering is in fact bogus. However when somone insists that buying disputed title absoultley is and was profiting from Cypriot suffering but buying non disputed was in no way doing this, that is where I have an issue. If buying disputed title is profiting from Cypriot suffering then so too is buying non disputed.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:17

erolz,



I see your point of view and anyway the idea of foreigners buying up

property anywhere, may be unsettling or worse:

and yes, many could only buy here because cypriots suffered



but are you actually saying it serves to continue the cypriots' pain?

surely you can only argue that, if the cypriot would otherwise get back what

was abandoned? on that, I am not at all convinced, given the "history"



of the lesser paliative of compensation, buyers may pay up one day,

although again, I simply do cannot believe that the gc side have either the

maturity nor the spirit of compromise to ever share in such a project



and you could admit that investment, tourism and development can

be something positive, given the low wages, unemployment, isolation etc



the alternative may beckon some:

another stab at unifiying cyprus, of which we hear a great deal on this forum,

it could salve the hurt of cypriots, at least if it succeeds

...so, do you hanker for "the good old days"?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:35

Again let me be clear. I personaly DO NOT say or think (one post above excepted which was badly expressed by me) that people who have bought in the north are profiting from the suffering of Cypriots. I think things are much more complex than that. However it is true that there are some who often use that expression, but those who do it the most, are people who have bought pre 74 title in the north and THEY (not me) make a differntiation between buying disputed title which THEY (not me) claim IS profiting from the suffering of Cypriots, and buying pre 74 title which THEY (not me) say is NOT profiting from the suffering of Cypriots. It is this claimed difference between these two senarios being a determinaing factor on if you have or have not sought to profit from Cypriot suffering that I have an issue with. If you say the first IS profiting from suffering of cypriots (and I dont personally), then you have to in my view accept the later also does so, only differnce being degree.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:35

andre msg 49: "there should be warnings for the foreign investor in north cyprus property"

Oy, oy, oy. What are you on about? Warnings about buying property in TRNC have always been out there. Whether some people are either too colossally stupid to notice them or too immoral and greedy to care is another matter.

The best thing about the Orams decision is it made a nonsense of the usual whine about being told "the property was legally exchanged".

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:48

Msg 11: "Next on their agenda will be the extermination of the exchange land owners or perhaps they might just leave this to the EU courts to give the land back to the original owners."

Extermination of carpetbaggers is a bit extreme but I do agree this huge group of foreigners face deportation in the same way illegal settlers do. They have no legal claim to the properties they occupy and these could be used as bargaining chips for a settlement with the Greek side. A positive way forward to improve the political situation in Cyprus would be to give reasonable notice to esdeger title holders to remove their personal possessions and hand in their keys to the district officer. This would show goodwill from the Turkish side and would only effect foreigners and not legitimate TCs or GCs. A win-win situation.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:58

zoots message 59:



hold your horses!



of course there have been dire warnings about north cyprus property,

both from you and the uk government

where the stupidity bit comes in is to imagine that with due diligance,

the risks are greater than anywhere else in the med



in any event government "warnings" as opposed to your doomsday

ravings are more along the lines of "take extreme care, because" etc

never a bad piece of advice about any human activity of any type,

I nearly choked on a a piece of biscuit in prague for example



when you persist in stereotyping ordinary punters as immoral and greedy

it probably says as much about your obsessions, as their failings



the isolated orams case has in my view been effectively sidelined

by subsequent events but the worse thing about was to encourage the

revanchist fantasies of posers like your good self



long live kktc!

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 20:58

Msg 50 girne 29: "Mute point as to who is the worse,me for knowingly buying something that I know doesnt legally belong to the seller, or the seller who knowingly sold me something he has no right to sell on."

An EU court of law would probably side with the latter person, who could argue he was trying to survive under a regime that made these things legal. Obviously that would impact on the former person's character in the eyes of the court, which could rule the carpetbagger was not buying in good faith as he was a speculator who knew full well what was going on and was simply exploiting the political situation under which all Cypriots have suffered.

"We were always told that TRNC title was legal in the TRNC ,but the authorities have shown that to be a con, otherwise why differentiate between the two when it comes to getting permission."

Quite. But as a person of sound mind who saw the funny flags and stuff, you never believed that old cobblers for a minute. Did you?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:00

Zoots yet again you hypothesise and speculate on what 'might' happen in the future if there is a settlement re people with property on disputed title in the north. It is pure speculation, nothing more. Informed speculation would look at what previous, failed, attempts at a negotiated settlement said about the issue. Such is certainly no guarantee as to what will happen in the future but such is a better guide to possibilites than just dreaming up a senario that fits with your objectives re creating as much fear as possible.

You speculation that following a settlment non citizen owners/users of disputed title will just summarily be deported on mass and no consideration for thier rights to said property will be given is no more realistic than speculating the RoC armed forces with the aid of other EU nations will force Turkey from Cypurs, take control of the north and expel all foreign users of disputed property. Its possible but not very likley is the reality.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:07

if turkey enter the EU turkish cypriots will have the same rights as any other EU residant not gonna be easy as you think pikey ?

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:07

andre,

The due diligence and risk stuff is all very well in cases of standard scam or rip-off. Not in cases where the "victim" tried to buy property that the legal owner was forced out of at the point of a bayonet.

"when you persist in stereotyping ordinary punters as immoral and greedy"

Persons who knowingly bought refugee property could never be considered "normal punters". These characters represent a tiny minority and cannot be associated with the rest of us.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:31

erolz msg 54: "I am sorry to say this but in truth anyone who bought in North Cyprus post 74 to some degree was 'profiting from the suffering of Cypriots'."

As opposed to a British-born national like you with TC parents who ups sticks to north Cyprus in middle age to take over an "inherited" property that was seized from a Greek Cypriot. Why pay to profit from the suffering of Cypriots when you can get it for free, eh? You have one hell of a nerve.

"I do not make moral judgments about it..."

That's just as well. You're in no position to moralise to others. Sure, you get brown-nosed by some of the dumber carpetbaggers and you're obviously very keen to keep in with the Cyps, but when did you last look in the mirror?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:42

zoots message 60:



a very alarming situation for ex-pat buyers should it come to pass,

but yes, it does posess a sort of implicit logic, rather like jonathan swift's

"a modest proposal"



but for once you don't mention the scores of thousands of new cypriots

who have arrived from the turkish mainland since 1974:

and if press reports are to be believed, every last one will get citizenship



so I'd assume, to quote remarks variously attributed both to gerry adams

and yassir arafat "they had better learn to swim"?

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:44

Erolz: "You speculation that following a settlment non citizen owners/users of disputed title will just summarily be deported on mass and no consideration for thier rights to said property will be given is no more realistic than speculating the RoC armed forces with the aid of other EU nations will force Turkey from Cypurs, take control of the north and expel all foreign users of disputed property. Its possible but not very likley is the reality."

Nobody expected the Turkish army to murder, torture and rape so many people in order to seize the land these dodgy properties and their dodgy occupiers are on. But murder, torture and rape they did. And Turkey was found guilty of this under international law. So asking a few thousand third-nation foreigners to relinquish the properties they had no legal right to in the first place without shedding a drop of blood is simple stuff. And as you concede, this scenario is possible.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:48

Blah blah blah. I am a british born national. Are you ? I am also a Cypriot national , RoC and TRNC. Are you ? I did indeed inherit a property in the North, though why the quotation marks I dont know. I live on land that is on disputed title. I have never hidden that fact. I have never hidden my ancestry unlike some, or my real name unlike some. Are you suggesting that I should give away my inheritance ? That because it was 'free' to me it reflects on my morality ? Absurd notions but nothing unusal for you. It's slightly unusal you have given up your normal lies of I am a foreigner (to trnc / roc) and live in a former GC home but I guess thats progress.

So just what it is you think that I have done that is imoral ? Living in an inherited property thats on disputed title ? Would it be imoral if I did'nt live in it ? Just what is it you think I should have done or do to be in your eyes moral ? As if I care what you think.

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:50

rowlo: "if turkey enter the EU turkish cypriots will have the same rights as any other EU residant not gonna be easy as you think..."

Pay attention. We are talking about steps Turkey could take to make a settlement possible BEFORE joining the EU. And that includes deporting and seizing the property of Brits and other foreigners - especially absentee ones. That is one hell of a lot of property to distribute to needy and deserving Cypriots. No locals affected, only foreigners, nice and painless, popular with the voters north and south. Simple enough now, I hope?

Zoots


Joined: 05/02/2011
Posts: 669

Message Posted:
05/06/2011 21:55

andre,

You're moving on too fast. Let me grab a bite and a drink before discussing the karasakals. I think a Kurdish homeland could be linked to a Cyprus deal somehow.

Emmo67


Joined: 17/07/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
06/06/2011 09:40

Can we get back on track.

The issue here is the Governments blatent disrespect for foreign investors and their underhand approach. In general this extends to them allowing disreputable persons to trade as "builders" and otherwise in North Cyprus. (My builder was great by the way, I am a lucky one).

Why are they operating a two tier system. This is simply unfair and disgraceful behaviour. Issuing PTBs on worthless Esedger land but not on the pre 1974 leads me to one conclusion. That is a hidden agenda that Zoots actually eludes to although I don't think that it will be a Turkish intervention. Most likelty is the return of the property or a payment of compensation to the rightful owners and this will happen under EU law in any case. The local builders have scampered with their profits from illegal land sales leaving the new owners with illicit property. Foreigners owning exchange land will be left far behind and disregarded by the TRNC Government when push comes to shove.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
06/06/2011 09:50

Emmo67 I do not disagree about the state of the TRNC government and its woeful inadaqucies in regards to property sales here. However there IS some balancing value of land in the RoC against that with 'exchange title' in the North. No EU court will accept that someone who has bought in the North must personaly return the property with no redress for thier loss, or personaly pay compensation, whilst some other entity accrues the value of TC properties in the South. The issue is complex, that is true. But 'exchange' title, whilst not meaning a consentual exhange with pre 74 GC owner, does mean that there is some 'balancing' value of property in the South. Do you really think an EU court will say all libailites and cost will be born by EU citizens indivduals, but this balancing value of property in the south will accrue to TRNC state or TC indivduals who have already had value from it by taking exchange and then selling it to you ? I do not think an EU court would accept this.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
06/06/2011 16:58

msge 58



"It is this claimed difference between these two senarios being a determinaing factor on if you have or have not sought to profit from Cypriot suffering that I have an issue with. If you say the first IS profiting from suffering of cypriots (and I dont personally), then you have to in my view accept the later also does so, only differnce being degree'.



I agree with what you are saying Erolz. I think you have made yourself very clear.