What happened to the 9 dogs ?

araneae


Joined: 24/06/2011
Posts: 193

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 10:06

Strays being hounded out – Kyrenia Animal Rescue is considering whether to continue its neuter-and-return policy in Lapta after Mayor Fuat Namsoy said he did not want dogs on the street in his area. His comments came as municipality officials, police and a vet removed nine dogs from the Lapta home of retired nurse Õzgül Ediz following complaints about the noise from neighbours. They said they were taking the dogs to KAR, a claim denied by the charity >>It is believed the dogs were put to sleep. <<



in cyprus today and on ncfp http://northcyprusfreepress.com/2011/06/25/in-cyprus-today-2562011/

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 10:25

Dogs are domesticated animals and should not run free (neutered by KAR or not) in towns, villages or in the 'wild'.

Dogs should be controlled by people in or around peoples homes.

I'm applauding the Lapta mayor for finally taking this clear stand.

Stray dogs became an issue after the influx of expats, because too many expats are not animal lovers* but animal-crazy.

* I belong to this category (two dogs - they get 100% attention and medical care).

CarrieRBag



Joined: 23/12/2008
Posts: 1374

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 10:35

I agree with Dutch Crusader..... way too many dogs and stray cats. Some irresponsible owners (but most are kind and considerate). What else can be done?

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 10:36

If the Mayor would like to come and sit on my balcony any evening he could not only hear the dogs barking but see them running at cars and pedestrians using the road opposite. Last night a dog very close to our house was barking constantly for around two hours, in that time we heard the words " shut up" being shouted just once but it didn't work.

I am not a dog hater, quite the opposite, but if people are going to have a dog then they must be responsible for them and not allow them to become a nuisance to others.

If they can't do that and the dogs are left to wander freely then in my opinion the Belediyese is acting in the interest of the residents of Lapta by rounding up these animals and dealing with them as they see fit.

MsGarnet


Joined: 04/01/2009
Posts: 989

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 10:38

Well done Lapta Mayor - someone should ask him to ask ALL the Mayors in TRNC to adopt the same policy. If whomever runs KAR finds it too hard to euthanise strays, then I wish they would find/advertise for, a Vet who would be prepared to do it for them. The cost of neutering could then be given instead to the Vet, to put these animals to sleep, preventing them possibly facing a life of misery OR even worse, being 'adopted', living the life of Riley, only later - to be left back on the streets, bewildered, unable to fend for themselves, and emotionally damaged........because their owners leave, and leave them to it - a danger to all...........

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 11:06

@ msg 5, MsGarnet: I was always told that KAR can't find a vet to kill the dogs (I don't like to use euphemisms) and that TRNC law wouldn't allow that anyway.

If that is true (?) KAR should close its eyes and leave it to responsible men like the Lapta mayor to solve the problem.

But at the same time KAR should not add to the problem - I find it ridiculous to neuter a dog and then bring it back to the place where he/she was caught - and set the animal free for others (not) to care.

P.S. I support what in my opinion should be the basic work of KAR: offer animals shelter in emergencies - but only for a limited time.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 12:14

I agree with you DC 100%



I have NEVER agreed with KAR's neuter and return policies.....Here is one example... A dog was dumped by our house some time ago...It was terrified of everyone and everything..KAR came and took it away on their neuter and release program............the dog was neutered and released back outside our house,even more traumatised and bewildered that before...the poor thing hung about for ages,we fed it every night for a month until one night it disappeared...Heaven knows what became of the poor thing...I don't know were they got the idea from but it is a non starter in my opinion.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 12:26

People leave dogs in the garden all night, one starts to bark and all the rest join in, we stayed with friends and hardly had a good nights sleep.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 12:31

@ msg 7, martinD41: (...) the poor thing hung about for ages,we fed it every night for a month until one night it disappeared (...)

▶ Your choice of course, but you won't mind my opinion? Feeding strays (neutered or not) adds to the problem or at least it doesn't help to solve the problem. The dog will stay in the area (understandable), sleep rough, get no medical care, will collect ticks and flees by the score and may be(come) a danger for grown-ups and children. And the dog will try to find other dogs to form a pack.

Sorry, stray dogs don't belong in our society. Not on Leicester Square in London, not on the Dam Square in Amsterdam, not in front of the Belediye in Girne, not in the streets of Lapta - nowhere.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 12:35

@ msg 8, Woodspeckie: (...) People leave dogs in the garden all night (...)

▶ No, we don't! They are inside at night, summer and winter.

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 12:53

Hans. Yes ok should have said some people, I have had three dogs and not one left out our neighbour has two and they are not allowed in the house ever even when it was so cold last Winter.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 12:56

Re: Msg 1,

Perhaps people who run KAR have to be reminded what happens to abandoned animals in the UK.

Yes, RSPCA , PDSA etc would rescue them, provide shelter, food and medical care for a limited period only ( it was 10 days before, now it is even less than that because of the sharp increase of abandoned animals). But after that, if no one claims them, they are put to sleep.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 13:08

@ msg 11, Woodspeckie: I don't think it's a problem for a dog (in Cyprus!) to get used to sleep outside the house in a good cage. But only if they are taught not to bark all the time!

We took 30 lessons (from puppy to a six months old young dog) with our dog "Spot" and he is a well behaving (although a bit enthousistic towards other people...) Dobermann now. However, he's getting older now and sometimes tends to "forget" what he doesn't like to do, but that's often only a matter of reminding him.

How many dog owners in TRNC bother to educate their dog(s) with a course? Lena Lindh does excellent work, she's not expensive and it really helps the dog to please his owner for years to come and not annoy others.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 13:11

Re: Msg 6,

"Msg 6@ msg 5, MsGarnet: I was always told that KAR can't find a vet to kill the dogs (I don't like to use euphemisms) and that TRNC law wouldn't allow that anyway. "



And I've been told that it's not true by at least two pet owners who got their pets put down by the vets in TRNC.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 13:13

@ msg 14, Clarissa2: I've also heard such stories - but never the name of the vet in question...

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 13:32

Is it old people next?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 13:40

@ msg 16, Troodo: (...) Is it old people next? (...)

▶ Did you forget to mention Gypsies, Jews and mentally-ill people? Come on, Troodo, don't derail a thread that may interest some readers.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 13:46

Re : Msg 16,

If you mean the UK , then you are right : there animals are treated much much better than old people.

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 14:36

I have read all the comments and only wish to say, glad someone is brave/sensible enough to realise that this cannot go on. This is not India. In a civilised society there are not hundreds of half starved animals running about.



I am an animal lover but the suffering for the poor dogs is totally unacceptable. I also disagree with the neuter and return policy. If you truly love animals you would not want them to suffer the privations of being wild and uncared for even when they are dying of dehydration and malnourishment.



The irresponsible breeding of dogs should also be curtailed also or the problem never goes away.



I abhor the killing of the dogs but what's the alternative??? I do not believe that there is one.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 14:43

I personally believe that putting down healthy animals is necessary in the TRNC given the levels of the problem here. I do not accept that this is what is best for the animals that are killed but I do accept that it is what is best for 'society' in general. However I do not think it is KAR's responsibility to take this task on. It should be the job of local government. My concern with the reported lapta removal of 9 dogs is, if they were put down, then how were they put down. Any policy to put down healthy animals should require that they are put down by humane means and it is far from clear that the Lapta municplaity has put in place the means to do this before announcing / implementing the policy and this is a concern to me.

Neuter and Return policies like the one KAR currently uses are not new or unique to KAR. THey have a long history and have been and are used around the world. They do remain controversial but to know where 'they got the idea' just google neuter and return.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:00

I also disagree with the policy. How do they educate the local dog owners though who will not get their animals neutered. The Bitches here have a hell of a life. Puppies over and over, till its their health. I once found a batch of 15 puppies with 4 mummies. Dire conditions. I feed them till I found out they belonged a Muhtar. I asked him why he didnt get them done, his reply Why spoil their fun. Erolz like you I am concerned that if they were indeed put done, HOW. DC I have also been told of vets who will put a dog down. Quite a large fee Im told.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:14

Liili KAR does run an 'education' program, visiting schools and speaking to children about animal care. Changing attitudes is a long term process but KAR is involved in trying to achieve this but KAR have no magic wands.

The vets here will put down animals. What they, the ones I know personaly, are not prepared to do is systematicaly put down large numbers of healthy animals on an on going basis, day in day out, week in week out, month in month out, which is what would be needed for any meaningful policy to destroy stray animals here. I can quite uderstand this on their part.

philnles


Joined: 11/08/2008
Posts: 413

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:33

I have had dealings with this lady over a fairly long period of time. The house next door is rented out as a holiday rental. The dogs were kept chained up down the side of the house, they just didn't stop howling and barking. Every person who stays there complains, 2 sets of families left the house after the first day of staying there. Imagine saving up all year for a holiday and not being able to sleep. The smell of discarded tins of cat and dog food is awful, bluebottles by the thousand and bags and bags of sawdust used as cat litter all over the drive. Nobody in the street is going to be sorry.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:38

@ msg 22, Erolz: (...) What they, the ones I know personaly, are not prepared to do is systematicaly put down large numbers of healthy animals on an on going basis, day in day out, week in week out, month in month out, which is what would be needed for any meaningful policy to destroy stray animals here. I can quite uderstand this on their part. (...)

▶ Erolz, with due respect: in years gone by you have given your opinion on the stray problem - your point of view hasn't changed. Nor has the problem. Something has to be done and ethical considerations shouldn't have priority. Practical men like the Lapta mayor have.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:47

Indeed DC my views have not changed. A planned, properly thought out and resourced policy of systematicaly destroying stray animals is something I support. I do not think this is what is best for the animals. I do think it can be justifed in terms of what is best for 'society', that is us as humans and indeed indigenous wildlife and I support it. I do not think it is KAR responsibility or job to do this or that it is reasonable or relaistic to expect KAR to do this. I would support the Lapta mayor as far as it was clear that humane meathods were being used to destroy stray animals.

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:52

Well done indeed (Lapta Mayor).

Culling these roaming pests is the only way.

No room for sensistivity here because they are a health hazard, especially to young children.

Geoff

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 15:52

A cull is the answer, mandatory chips in all animals and fines for owners of strays, or at least costs for bed and board until they are reclaimed within alloted time before being put to sleep..

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 18:23

Erolz hits the nail squarely on the head. The responsibility for dealing with strays lies with the government and municipalities, a responsibility that they have shirked for years. I am not against a cull but the method(s) used should be humane



Paul

rowan


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 450

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 19:21

i have a couple of concerns about Mr Namsoy;s policy

will the putting to sleep be humane



how will the dog catchers distinguish between the dog which has genuinely escaped for a short period of time and the ones which roam. i do not accept the policy of some owners who just let out the dog to take itself for a walk, but do accept that even the most careful owner can have an escapee for a short while and I am not sure how you tell this dog from a roaming dog.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 19:25

All dogs should be chipped

End of problem

no thefts, etc

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:29

@ msg 25, Erolz: (...) Indeed DC my views have not changed. A planned, properly thought out and resourced policy of systematicaly destroying stray animals is something I support. (...)

▶ OK, Erolz, seven years ago or so we already agreed on this. It has been proven to be daydreaming and I - again - say that it's time for adequate measures.

(...) I do not think this is what is best for the animals. (...)

▶ That is too bad, Erolz. We are talking about stray dogs and not about human beings.

(...) I do not think it is KAR responsibility or job to do this or that it is reasonable or relaistic to expect KAR to do this. (...)

▶ And I think it's not KAR's job to run a neuter-and-bring-them-back policy. THEY, KAR, ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM. KAR HANDS THE PROBLEM OVER TO THE LOCAL COMMUNITY (WHEN THE KAR CAR DRIVES AWAY).

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:33

@ msg 31 (more): Erolz: (...) I would support the Lapta mayor as far as it was clear that humane meathods were being used to destroy stray animals. (...)

▶ Let him solve the problem and then let's discuss the way it has been done - so it can be done better in the future. Words, words, endless words - the general problem in TRNC. Well done, Mr. Mayor of Lapta.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:35

Re: Msg 29,

"... I am not sure how you tell this dog from a roaming dog."

What do you think collars with tags are for?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:40

Dc on the core issue we agree. Some form on culling of strays is necessary. It's only the details we differ on, as in who does and how they do it. I certainly accept that dogs and cats are not humans which is why I would support humane culling as part of a proprely plan and strategy of control. My point is I just do not and never will accept the argument that doing this is for the benefit of the animals killed. It is not. Its for our benefit and arguably the environments benfit, but it is NOT for the benefit of those animals. Lets be honest here. Nor do I think your claim that KAR are part of the problem is fair at all, be it expressed in caps or not. At worst you can say it makes no difference but to say it is part of the problem seem harsh to me. THe strays are there before KAR N&R's them and they are there after, just after they are no longer able to add to the stray population.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:45

As for the action of the Lapta mayor, the dogs they took and presumably killed were NOT strays. It is also far from clear how they were killed, if they were indeed killed. Although these animlas are not humans I do believe that if we are to kill them for our benefit or the wider benfit of society, we do have an obligation to do with the least pain and suffering possible and as part of a properly manged programm, and not just one off knee jerk reactions that may gain votes but actualy will do nothing to solve or improve the problem over the medium and long term.



It should also be pointed out there is nothing stopping a private indivdual from taking a stray dog or cat themselves ot a vet to have it put down. If having the animals put down is so obviopusly the right and best thing to do and the issue is so serious and no one else it taking action I have to wonder why so few people if any are not doing this ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:53

@ msg 34, Erolz: (...) Some form on culling of strays is necessary. It's only the details we differ on, as in who does and how they do it. I certainly accept that dogs and cats are not humans which is why I would support humane culling as part of a proprely plan and strategy of control. (...)

▶ Sorry, Erolz, we both live in TRNC and - after so many years - we both ought to know that the Government obviously has other priorities. After all stray dogs are not found inside the Ministry of Interior.

(...) My point is I just do not and never will accept the argument that doing this is for the benefit of the animals killed. It is not. Its for our benefit and arguably the environments benfit, but it is NOT for the benefit of those animals. (...)

▶ Of course it's not for the benefit of the animals killed. So what? It's a very minor aspect of the problem. I wish you could see the big picture.

[ more ]

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:55

Re : Msg 34,

KAR is a charity which receives public donations that could be spent on paying the vets to destroy unwanted stray animals (it is what RSPCA does which is also a charity).

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 20:57

[ more @ msg 36). Erolz : (...) THe strays are there before KAR N&R's them and they are there after, just after they are no longer able to add to the stray population. (...)

▶ KAR: The house is on fire, we throw some water on the fire and watch what's going to happen. Wrong. Desperate diseases require desperate remedies, Erolz.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:05

DC i can accpet arguments that KAR's policy does little or nothing to solve the problem, its not a view I agree with peronsaly, but I can accept and understand why otherts hold it. However you original claim was they make the problem worse and this I do not accept. Throwing some water on a fire does not make it worse in terms of your analogy.

Clarrisa2 comparing KAR to the RSPA is in my view pointless. The orgnaisations are are totaly different, face different problems on different scales, have different resources and most telling of all have totaly different legal powers. That is KAR has none and the RSPCA has substaintal legaly defined powers. KAR survives only on donations and there is no doubt that a change in it's policy on strays and killing them would impact donations. No one can know for sure if such a change would undermine its very ability to exist or not, but it could do. What is not in doubt is that people have left sometimes substantial [cont]

westender


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 328

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:06

The RSPCA does not take in unwanted stray animals, that is generally left to local councils via dog wardens.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:10

donations on their death and have done so on the basis that KAR does not systematicaly put down healthy animals. To then change such a policy after reciveing the money would I think be problematic. KAR does vastly more than just the N&R progam is the reality.



There is NOTHING stopping concerned private indivduals setting up their OWN charity with the specifict brief and remit of culling strays, and collecting donations to fund it on this basis and understanding. So why not do this ? It is easy to demand that an animal WELFARE charity do it, because government does not and it needs to be done, and then attack said charity when it chooses to not do so. It is much harder to actualy do something yourself to solve the problem.



I still believe that expecting KAR to take on this task is unreasonable and unrealisitic.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:26

@ msg 41, Erolz: Let's agree that we disagree. I can only hope that the Lapta Mayor sticks to his words and makes the streets of Lapta stray-dog-free - which at the same time means that KAR and its highly questionable (imo) approach is not needed there anymore. May other Mayors and Muhtars follow his example as soon as possible.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:34

Re: Msg 41,

I'm not talking about systematic culling of stray animals : this is indeed a major responsibility of the public health authorities, which goes under public health/prevention of epidemic etc. and which this government obviously chooses to ignore.

I was writing about KAR's policy of dealing with the rescued animals that can not be re-homed. And the only reasonable way to deal with them is to destroy them (hence my analogy with RSPCA).

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:35

DC I am happy to agree to disagree, though on the core issue I think we do actualy agree. I too hope that the Lapta Mayor is able to make a real improvement to the situation via the use of culling where necessary, with the only caveat being that I also hope any such culling does use the most humane means practicaly possible. I also hope others Mayors do likewise, because if they do not then it will become an unpractical burden on the lapta Mayor and his resources, as strays will migrate from crowded areas where there is no policy of culling into the uncrowded areas where there are. That is why a piecemeal appraoch will not solve the problem other than in the shortest of terms in my opnion.

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:39

Many charities have a no kill policy, KAR are doing the best they can within their remit, neutering strays is obviously better than doing nothing.

I think it might be an idea to offer a free chipping service in the first instance with fines at a later date for owners of any unchipped animals, if you hit the irresponsible owners in the pocket it will have a knock on effect imo.Any animals traced back to owners should only be returned at a fixed rate plus costs.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:50

Re: Msg 45,

"Many charities have a no kill policy.."

What do you think they do with them, store in warehouses in boxes or release them to roam in Hyde park?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 21:57

Clarrisa2 they do what KAR does, the best they can with limited resources. You may just as well ask what womens refuge charites do when they have no more space left. Throw out the woman who had been their longest even though she may still be at risk to make way for a 'new' client?

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:07

Re: Msg 47,

erolz, i admire your imagination: from stray dogs to 'stray' women!

Do you suggest to sterilize them too and throw them to sleep on the streets ("as KAR does with limited resources")?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:17

The point I am trying to get accross Clarissa is that KAR, like may charities, does the best it can. Just because it can not help every animal I do not see why that means is should clearly therefore adopt a policy of killing healthy animals, which seems to be your argument as far as I understand it. Every anaimal it is able to help is a 'result'. That it choses to NOT have a blanket policy of killing healthy animals after a fixed period of time does not change the positive results and work it does do. Nor would such a policy of killing healthy animals mean it could help more animlas in total, unless you think it has 'helped' those it kills, which I personaly do not.

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:22

Clarissa deliberately obtuse or what?

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:32

Re: Msg 50,

Roomy, go and start a new thread about your evening erection!



Re : Msg 49,

erolz, and in your opinion the animal is 'helped' if it is neutered and thrown to the streets to fend for itself.

And for how long is it going to stay 'healthy'?

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:36

Clarissa like a Horse I could lead you to water but I cannot make you drink, you are possibly the most ignorant poster here, I leave you room for improvement, you are allowed a day off you know?The village can function without it's idiot for a day or two.

mozgor



Joined: 16/06/2010
Posts: 256

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:47

I find it difficult to agree or disagree on this one!!!! I do not agree with the neuter and return policy, but on the other hand I also don't agree with them being put to sleep either. In an ideal world, pet owners would be forced to have their animals neutered and keep them under control. However, as it is far from ideal, unfortunately I would support a humane and only a humane putting to sleep policy. It has to be better than these poor animals starving, being hit by cars, being abused by humans etc etc. An overdose injection in the arm is a lot less painful than a life full of suffering and would much prefer this official method rather than the unofficial poisining which goes on. KAR are doing a brilliant job at getting into the schools and educating the youngsters, but it's going to be at least 10-20 years before we see any significant change. Unfortunately, many of the people who settle in TRNC are not animals lovers and view strays as vermin - simple.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:54

Clarissa2



Roomy worries about his morning erection as well as his evening erection don't let him lead you to water, his water will no doubt be tainted, as for ignorant? most will make their own minds up! idiots like Roomy need their fellow idiots (of which their are many) before they can function



As for any animals thrown on the streets of the TRNC! like any animal lover my heart goes out them all! but do understand that KAR can only do so much!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 22:54

Clarissa2 the animals that KAR N&R are helped in that they get checked by a vet and recieve treatment if they need it before being tagged and returned. This might not be much but its more than zero and more than if they were not picked up for neutering and returning at all. Killing animals in the center to make room for a stray, whilst it helps the new animal it does so at the expense of the old, and in net the total amount of animals helped is the same. So I still fail to see why killing them is obviously the policy KAR should have. If their brief was to improve the general enviroment for humans, then such would make sense to me, but that is NOT their brief, it was not why they were created and it is not the basis on which they have raised and continue to raise funds and not the basis on which voulanters give of their time. They help as many animals as they can and choose not to kill healthy animlas as a matter of course.

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 23:08

Msg54



A fool and his money are easily parted, please don't try to dole out pearls of wisdom, kind of makes you look like a simpleton.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 23:20

Roomy (mess 56)



No-one on this board at the moment looks more like a simpleton than you



Enjoy your evening erection

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 23:27

I don't work at nights, your comprehension skills need honing ask Dick, he knows his arse from his elbow only 'cos he has is nose in one or the other all the time.Hahahahahaha...

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 23:45

The chip policy couldnt work as now one will know how to read it. I know someone who did try to implement it but the government knocked it back. KAR do what they can, they rely on donations to page wages, keep and feed the animals etc. I was always told they came under the RSPCA. I do not know if that is true. They do take in what they can, and et wills, donations left to carry on but its an endless take. They will have to deal with parvo, diseases etc at the centre. The NandR policy is good in principle, however all other aspects discussed here will remain, road kill, poision or shooting by police. Also as said the gang efffect. What happens to the bodies once they have gone, left to rot x

vikkicm


Joined: 17/05/2011
Posts: 158

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 23:48

Brits are a nation of animal lovers... when we find a cat/dog here, been looked after/ or not and then dumped, like a discarded toy, what's the solution? Do we do give it a good home, neuter it, nourish it, care for it, get attached to it, or take it to KAR, when we know that it will turn back up on your doorstep a couple of weeks later, having been tagged? Whilst I have total admiration for the work that KAR do, there must be a better solution, surely? What it is, I don't know!



I am the owner of "Bob, yellow pointer cross, still missing" He was dumped (2 years ago), in a local bar, obviously by Brits, who had probably decided to go back to UK. He understands english, house trained, afraid of turkish men, what should we have done, taken him to KAR to be put back on the street to fend for himself, and leave him find his way back to us, to repeat the process all over again

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
25/06/2011 23:52

No, you did the compassionate thing, I hope Bob finds his way back to you.

vikkicm


Joined: 17/05/2011
Posts: 158

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 00:07

Aww, Roomy, you are a nice guy! Many, many, thanks to all of you, especially, Erolz, Lilli, Poglie (Mel P) DC and all of you who have visited my post and left messages re my missing "BOB", look out for the posters they are from Alcancak to Catalkoy, still not givinp up, he cannot have disappeared into thin air..Mwhah!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 00:17

Vikki never ever give up, I went to sunny lane today but didnt see any dog, i guess the heat makes them hide. If you feel he is still alive then go with that. Instincts should always be followed and please swetheart follow yours. We feel your pain and all wish for bob to come with his tail betwen his legs xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 08:34

Back on topic.



All in this thread knew that it is hardly possible to convince people in the other camp.

So, I'll try to summarize.

1 : If you don't find stray dogs a problem - I'm glad the Lapta Mayor disagrees.

2 : If you do find stray dogs a problem - there's the "Lapta Mayor solution".

3 : If you agree with the KAR policy of N&R - I'm glad the Lapta Mayor disagrees.

4 : If you disagree with the KAR policy of N&R - there's the "Lapta Mayor solution".



P.S. KAR could ask the Lapta Mayor about the way the stray dogs are killed. But let's not forget: he is DOING something after many years of (expat) talking and unworkable advice (on this board).

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 11:23

KAR say their N&R policy has it's origins in Turkey...I disagree.. Bulgaria has practised N&R for years and it has had problematic repercussions on a scale unimaginable.....Check out , Animal Programs Foundation(Luisa Tasker)

Bulgaria

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 12:37

DC



"P.S. KAR could ask the Lapta Mayor about the way the stray dogs are killed. But let's not forget: he is DOING something after many years of (expat) talking and unworkable advice (on this board)."



As has already been alluded to, the brief for KAR is not to destroy healthy animals. Whilst KAR are not perfect, I don't believe that anyone could argue that they haven't made a positive contribution. Whilst I appreciate you have been here longer than most, I have been here 3 years and have seen a noticeable decline in the number of stray dogs/cats. It is also worth remembering that whilst the N&R policy puts dogs back onto the streets, KAR still maintain responsibility for their welfare and anyone finding a 'tagged' dog in distress can inform KAR who will then deal with the problem.



Hans, I know it goes against the grain for you to criticise any facet of your beloved TRNC, but lets acknowledge where the true blame lies, it is not with the expats, try the government !!



Pa

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 12:59

" KAR still maintain responsibility for their(N&R) welfare"



I have never heard such tripe in my life, if Tagged dogs are the responsibility of KAR then by their own recommendation the dogs should be wearing "Paraband Collars", be regularly Wormed etc....None of the afore mentioned are done........The policies of KAR are in my view questionable at best...

Woodspeckie


Joined: 25/01/2009
Posts: 2263

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 13:42

We go to Turkey and in three of the resorts we visit the stray dogs are tagged and kept to a minimum, once a week a vet in a van visits the area to check on them the local restaurants have collection boxes to pay him, I do believe though any stray dogs not tagged are culled.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 13:56

@ msg 66, fiendishpaul: (...) Hans, I know it goes against the grain for you to criticise any facet of your beloved TRNC, but lets acknowledge where the true blame lies, it is not with the expats, try the government !! (...)

▶ I agree. But this world is far from ideal and if the TRNC Government fails (once more and certainly in this case - yes, I say it, because I'm not blind) to do what is necessary than I have no objections at all when local authorities decide to tackle the problem.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:18

Martin



All animals are checked by a vet, wormed and frontlined prior to being returned from where they were found. I am sure that even you would acknowledge that given how stretched KAR are from both a financial and manpower perspective, to expect them to then continue with worming/frontlining etc would be difficult if nigh on impossible. As for parabands, just to 'equip' all the dogs at the centre would cost in excess of 30000TL per year, let alone the N&R population. As I said, if a 'tagged' dog is found in distress, KAR will attempt to deal with the problem which is more than can be said for the government. As to their policies, you are of course entitled to your view. Maybe you should volunteer at the centre for a few months to see exactly the problems that the charity finds itself up against. The other option of course is to band together with likeminded people and start your own charity which implements the policies that you espouse.



Regards



Paul

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:25

"KAR still maintain responsibility for their(N&R) welfare"



Perhaps the above would have been more accurate if I had phrased it as:



"My understanding is that KAR maintain a degree of responsibility for dogs released under their N&R policy".



Regards



Paul

nostradamus


Joined: 15/04/2008
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:27

Lapta Belediye has been bumping off stray dogs for a while now to my knowledge. There were 3 dogs left by their owner in and around a derelict property in the village some time ago and the Belediye came to have a look - presumably after complaints. They returned the next day and shot them.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:33

Re: Msg 72,

"There were 3 dogs left by their owner ..."

Another 'animal lover' ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:34

@ msg 70, fiendishpaul: (...) to expect them to then continue with worming/frontlining etc would be difficult if nigh on impossible. (...)

▶ Abandon the N&R(&Continue) policy and work together with mayors and muhtars TO SOLVE the problem. Then concentrate on KAR's core business: shielding animals in distress. The latter is the reason why I became a life-time KAR member when I first arrived here.

(...) The other option of course is to band together with likeminded people and start your own charity which implements the policies that you espouse. (...)

▶ That's the usual thing to do re: charities in Northern Cyprus. I oppose such an advice or suggestion. It must be possible to discuss a problem without being adviced to become a dissident (with your own charity).

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:53

It is also rather disturbing to regularly read in dog threads about "healthy dogs shouldn't be put down" when stray dogs are concerned.

Whatever KAR does after the tagging - do these dogs get a yearly vaccination against rabies?

A yearly vaccination against the deadly heart worm (only indigenous in Cyprus, my Dutch vet warned me before emigrating to TRNC)?

Are they wormed every three months?

Regularly checked for ticks (Lyme!) and flees and getting a fresh collar every three months?

No, they are not.

So they are not "healthy dogs".

They are poor creatures and a potential health danger for people and their healthy animals.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 14:57

Re : Msg 75,

I asked this question about this wonderful 'humane' policy and a 'healthy animal' concept in Msg 51, but had no reply...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:21

Clarrisa2 if you mean the question "And for how long is it going to stay 'healthy'? "

That depends on the dog in question. Not every stray dog lives a life of misery and pain only to die of road accident , starvation or illness. Some do suffer these fates, maybe even a mjority of them, but others live perfectly acceptable and content lives for considerable periods of time, is the reality.

For me, and this is a personal view, if it really is the case that it is better for a given animal to have no life than to have one with a high chance of suffering and pain and lack of food, then it must also be true for humans. Whilst I totaly accept that humans and animals are different in many ways I just do not see how they are different in this regard. Personally I can not accept that being killed is better for an animal (or human) merely because there is a high probability of future pain and suffering.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:27

I totally agree Erolz. I have taken many aN&R dogs, they all went on to have good healthy lives, and happy ones.x I see one little one just past Lapta, not owned, red earing. He is happy in his little world . I have seen him mow for the past 5 years.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:34

msg 70 What I espouse is that KAR by their own admission are overrun with unwanted dogs......because they are "FULL" they have come up with a policy whereby they neuter and return a dog to the street ,so that the animal has to fend for itself!!.......Given that dogs are not good hunters (and there is nothing to hunt)they turn to scavenging from garbage bins etc.They often form packs and with strength in numbers become a threat to the public......and, due to lack of periodic health checks become a health hazard to other cared fore PET's .....They, through no fault of their own become" VERMIN".....and should be dealt with accordingly.It is a strong stance taken in Lapta.. but a in my view ,a very positive first step ...........

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:43

Re: Msg 79,

".....They, through no fault of their own become" VERMIN".....and should be dealt with accordingly".

It is exactly the word I use, but it sends the 'animal lovers' into a coma. It's all on deaf ears .

For them it is all 'puppies and kittens ...ah... so sweet!' . Further than that they don't want to know.

I retire my case.

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:46

At long last the authorities are starting to cull these stray doggies and moggies.

The health hazards of these strays has been well and fully debated on here before.

They have to be destroyed.

If YOU have a pet keep it under comtrol and off the streets. Ensure it has a nametag on its collar.

Geoff

Famagusta City.

nostradamus


Joined: 15/04/2008
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:52

Message 73: yes, obviously! The property was being lived in by a Turkish/Turkish Cypriot man who was squatting there. He moved on, the dogs stayed.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 15:53

@ Erolz: It was an interesting debate but I think all pros and cons re: stray dogs have been exchanged by now. My point of view didn't change - I find most of the pro-R&N KAR policy arguments pure academic.

This, for me, is final: I don't want stray dogs around my house or in my garden nor do I want to meet them in village streets or on the main road.

In my opinion more talk about this problem is a waste of time and I fully support the measures the Lapta Mayor has taken or has in mind.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 16:01

Clarrisa2 msg 80 I think characterising anyone who does not share your views on strays, what should be done about them and what role KAR should play in all that is just interested in 'puppies and kittens ...ah... so sweet!' and has no interest beyond that, is very unfair. Certainly it is not the case for me. There is a serious issue and it does need to be addressed. I have always accepted that. However that does not mean that unless I have the same views as you I have no intertest in the issue beyond 'puppies and kittens ...ah... so sweet!', which seems to be what you are saying as far as I udertstand your post msg80.

Geoff


Joined: 25/06/2008
Posts: 1370

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 16:15

I note from the "Cyprus Today" newspaper 25th June that Ozgui Ediz fom Lapta did NOT have a licence for

running an Animal Shelter - necessary so it can be inspected from time to time to ensure standards are being maintained etc. As a result animals were removed from her premises and destroyed on the orders of the Lapta Mayor. Well done Mr Mayor.

Geoff

Roomy


Joined: 20/02/2011
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 16:17

If a dog or cat begs for water and food from me it will get both, simple as that.If the authorities round them all up and kill them (humanely of course) I wouldn't object but until they do they will be fed and watered.No amount of nimbyism will change my mind on that one.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 17:21

Martin/DC



Re message 79 & 83. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I am not against the culling of stray/pack animals provided it is done humanely. However, I have my doubts as to whether this will be the case.



I do not believe that it is the responsibility of KAR to be the driving force behind any such initiative, instead it is about time that the government finally stood up and did something about animal welfare.



Regards



Paul

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
26/06/2011 17:46

This will not happen unless every one in their villages puts pressure on their mayors.....



If every one with a problem hounded the mayors, perhaps two or thee times a week as a body of people something might get done.. But until a complete method is adhered to, you are all banging your heads regarding posting on this forum....



Sorry to sound so negative, but it takes a leader amongst you all to initiate a programme...