Rioting in Tottenham

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 10:13

Tottenham looks like a war zone, I cannot believe that civilised 'human beings' can behave like this. Whatever caused it does not justify what these animals have done.

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 10:36

Hetty the protest started because of the shooting on thursday but looks like it has turned into free for all.

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 10:36

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2011/08/06/tottenham-protest-turns-n_n_920271.html





DD

essexdan


Joined: 29/07/2009
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 10:42

awful scenes on Sky News ......... these people are not civilised. Police return fire and kill an armed gang member and they take to the streets and cause mindless damage. Fantastic Olympic advert , come to the safe streets of london.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 10:49

I have been listening to a couple of people who have lost everything because of these thugs, cowardly thugs as most of them cover their faces, homes, businesses, jobs, all gone, it is a bloody disgrace. I am sure the police will come under the spotlight and be blamed for this. IMO all those involved (if they ever get identified) should be jailed for a long time and those who are not Brits should be deported.



It is the innocent in these situations that suffer.

mistymoppet


Joined: 29/07/2011
Posts: 132

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 10:53

Yes a complete disgrace, we have become to soft a nation and allow too much to go unpunished because of the PC brigade.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 11:08

Obviously the police shot Jesus again instead of Barabbas.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 11:31

Troodo what do you mean?

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 11:39

hetty, a biblical reference to Barabus the thief being pardoned by Pontius Pilate whilst Jesus was crucified.



Troodo

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 11:53

It's Bridgewater farm, what else do you expect.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 11:55

Panchocat I know my bible maybe I haven't had enough sleep



Everyone is being blamed for this, the police for not sending their top officer out to explain to a lynch mob what had happened to 'jesus'.



Boris Johnson for not making a statement along with the Home Secretary etc etc, this is typical of those that think they are above the law, problem is they are, the police are too scared to go into these ethnic areas, they are no goers, I say they should have gone in in tanks and blown the little to bits.



Post edited , for inferred bad language ......... Simbas

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 11:58

Post removed , i am horrified i didn't see this post before , which ever way you read it , it was racist ....... Simbas

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:00

Can you imagine what would happen if expats went on the rampage in the TRNC, they would be jailed and deported, and rightly so, we are far too tolerant.

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:07

Are country is too soft a poor excuse for a fight and to go out looting. Send in the Army and the water cannons

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:07

Rivers of blood-Enoch could just be right

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:08

Hippo Enoch Powell was a great man, the best conservative prime minister that never was. He was a man of vision and he was so right.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:09

We were in Tottenham in the last riots in 1985 when PC Keith Blackelock was hacked to death by a mob.

Our newsagents shop was on Phillips Lane and our paper delivery was the Broadwater Farm and surrounding area.

The riot was known about for a couple of weeks beforehand despite reports that it was spontanious due to a lady having a heart attack when her house was raided by police.

I had been advised to put my car away several days beforehand which I did.

The rear of our shop was used by the police for coffee etc and to allow the constables to phone their families to assure them they were ok.

Unfortunatly it does not end when the riot ends. For a long time afterward the local yobs strutted around thinking they were above the law and to a certain extent --- they were.

Winston Silcott who was jailed for the murder of PC Blakelock and then later released on appeal was pure evil, and if ever anyone needed to be hanged,he did. Served 18 years for another murder.

Continued

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:22

Carndi, I just cannot imagine the fear you must have felt, I agree Silcott looked evil, some are just born evil and yes he probably should have been hanged.



If you are white you are a second class citizen in the UK, particularly in England and we wonder why there is so much racism, well for those that still think there is, think again, ask yourselves why, the answer is being broadcast on most news channels this morning.

JohhnyLee


Joined: 25/04/2009
Posts: 2495

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:26

Yes Enoch was right, he lived close to us.



He saw it head on. (Wolverhampton).



The one and only Iron Lady said on TV that she always carried with her excerts from Enochs speeches.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:31

The local counciler was Bernie Grant who boasted that '' The police got a bloody good hiding '' and later claimed that he had been mis quoated.

Dolly Kiffon founded the local youth centre but was nick named ' The Godmother ' and it was appropiate. She came from the Caribbean and got the set up the youth centre which got large grants from the local council and was taken to court to account for missing money but got off as she had lost the receipts in a storm when she was on holiday in the Caribbean. From reports in the press she was able to build a large house in her home village and also support the local village football team by buying them football strips,boots etc. All this on her dole money. She should be made Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Unfortunatly they again will believe that they are above the law unless firm action is taken now.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:31

Feral thugs plain and simple.



Then people wonder how Nick Griffin gets his platform ?

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:33

JL I find that surprising as it was his own colleagues that destroyed his career, immigration should have been pegged decades ago and we should not have joined Europe in any form, much of this we have brought on ourselves or should I say our politicians have.



Bring back the death penalty and get rid of the politically correct do gooders and give us reason to call our country GREAT BRITAIN again.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:35

Turtle I wholeheartedly agree with you, I don't agree with Griffin but I do support UKIP and Nigel Farage.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:37

Carndi, they have had it their way for too long but what can be done now, it is too late, if you dare to raise your head above the parapet your are branded a racist, I am not racist normally but when these riots happen I am sad to say I am.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:39

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I think every riot we have had in the UK has been in black areas!?

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:48

hetty



Eh! In Northern Ireland?

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 12:52

John W, of course, I wasn't thinking of Ireland at all, thanks for reminding me.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:00

England has a long history of rioting over the ages. It really does have nothing to do with the colour of people's skin. Here are a few examples:



1668 - Messenger riots, (London, England)

1721 - English Servants Riot, (London, England)

1736 - Anti-Irish Riots, (Shoreditch/Spitalfields/Whitechapel, England

1780 - Gordon Riots, (London, England)

1811-1812 - English Luddite Riots, (Leicester/York, England)

1910 - Tonypandy Riot (South Wales, UK)

1919 - Battle of Bow Street, (Bow Street, London, UK)

1936 - Battle of Cable Street, (London, England)

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:01

Think Hetty was talking riots in UK and yes about 99 per cent in black areas. Brixton I think was first my husband on duty that day and shirt and helmet burnt but he was OK, then you had the Bristol riots in St. Pauls, Broadwater Farm when the blacks tried to decapitate him after killed. I think your posts are correct Hetty - all this political correctness and EU laws are crazy. I cannot keep my mouth closed when in UK so far not been nicked but people have to stand up and be counted. I was born and bred in Lambeth so I know the problems that are in these areas. All these 'do gooders' drive me insane. The chap who was shot was threatening the police with a gun - what were they supposed to do. Water cannons great idea only put a coloured dye in them so that when they walk about people know what they were up to. Cowardly covering their faces. Those poor shop owners and people who lived above the shops must have been terrified.



post edited for bad language .......... simbas

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:03

You're quite right JohnW, it wasn't that long ago when the students took to the streets and going on the rampage.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:09

John W I have had time to think about the situation that was N.Ireland and you cannot bracket that situation with this and the other riots in black areas, we were at war with N.I, the rioting in these cities is not a permanent situation, it is down to local thugs out to destroy and rampage, a lot different I think.



Also you cannot list those others that happens unless my memory serves me very badly they were nothing like this and they were for different reasons.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:12

Rocking, that is exactly what they are, cowardly scum that need hanging imo.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:13

hetty



We have never been at war with Northern Ireland.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:15

Now there is some batty woman calling for calm telling these thugs that Tottenham will be heard, JC, I know lets just put all our police officers on the streets there and let the thugs murder them.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:19

Johnw maybe not a war as in ww1 or ww2, but our troops were there and we were being bombed. YOu are just nitpicking for the sake of it, I am presuming that you are a member of the PC brigade and a do gooder who will try to justify the events of last night in Tottenham.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:28

hetty



Not PC at all and have never been called a do gooder before (Is that a compliment). I would take a very hard line indeed with the rioters and have no problem at all with the police shooting someone if they felt it necessary. Look at the videos. There are many white faces among the youths rioting. This is not a "black" thing. It is the yobs and thugs of the area taking advantage of the situation.



As for the death penalty. Apart from hanging a few people having a death penalty simply ensures that many murderers go free as juries are reluctant to convict when there are sending someone to their death. In Canada after abolition the murder rate went down (just a tad) and the conviction rate doubled as juries were more likely to convict.

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:31

Everytime something like this happens we hear someone spout Enoch Powells rivers of blood speech.



To put it in its context the speech was made in 1968 and Powell gave a timing for this to happen as 15 - 20 years. Which would put it at the latest as 1988. Enoch Powell could have been right? I dont think so it is now 2011 and it hasnt happened yet!



For anyone who is interested they can call this up on wikipedia, and see how wrong it was.



Lets not fall for the BNP propaganda. Many so called 'ethnics' are British and proud of it. Look at our athletics and football squads. Just because someone has a black face doesnt mean they are bad!

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:33

hetty



Please show me where I have said anything to "justify the events of last night" or apologise. You see, the problem when things like this happen is that people look to their prejudices to inform themselves rather than look at the facts on the ground. People start quoting Enoch Powell when most of them have probably never even read the speach.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:35

John, the Brixton riot was 1981, Broadwater was in 1985 etc etc, if my memory is correct and we have had many since then, that makes Enoch Powell right!

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:42

hetty



Have you read the speach?

Gramps


Joined: 21/03/2010
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:44

I went to Tottenham FC to watch the game 2:1 to Tottenham good result. came out at 7'oclock and walked to south tottenham station. walked past the police station at about 7:30 and there was about 50 people standing around quite peacefully, so dont know what kicked it all off just mindless thugs out on a saturday night?

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 13:49

Hetty



I suggest you look at the speech.



There may have been riots but the rivers of blood which Powell predicted never occurred.



Powell was talking of the possibilities of civil war where many would would killed in some form of armed uprising. That has not happened, no rivers of blood. So Powell was wrong.



It seems that many here are quick to blame everything on immigrants and immigration when the vast majority of immigrants are hard working and law abiding.



I am all for the arrest and punishment of those involved and the expelling from the country of those without British passports. I cant take the racist view that some here appear to have that all the ills of the UK are down to immigrants. Lets face it those in the TRNC wouldnt be too happy being accused of all the ills of their adopted homeland.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 14:11

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:05

JohnW; your list excludes the more recent Brixton and Brtoadwater Farm Estate (Tottenham) riots of 1985! They also started because of the "heavy hand" tactics of the Metropolitan Police. I am surprised that most people's response here show the Met Pol as angels, and the ethnic minorities as the main cause!

All these recent riots were started as a result of innocent people dying (or being shot) by the incompetent firearms police, most of whom should not even be carrying firearms! Has anyone looked into how many innocent people have actually been shot and killed by the police over the past 3 decades? They are poor imitators of their colleagues in USA, whom they try to copy from what they see in American movies! There must be dozens of cases when civilians were shot and killed in UK because of the trigger happy, scared, incompetent cops!

I remember my college life in London during the 1970's, when the good old "bobby" would carry nothing more than a baton and his radio. (cont.)

britvic



Joined: 05/09/2008
Posts: 3039

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:22

From the "Rivers of blood" speech: "they found themselves made strangers in their own country. They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. On top of this, they now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by Act of Parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances, is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions."



Sounds familiar.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:25

ok - on my soap box......



He was black presumably ??



More fool the government for giving "imigrants" any rights......



In my 1 year in thailand - you get a 1 year visa which is renewable, you give them any grief, you are locked up in jail until you have your flight ticket home - no human rights - just on your bike.........



had this happened in thailand, the policy / army would have rounded up the trouble causers and they would be jailed, and no namby pamby 3 months - years and years...



The UK is the author of its own misfortune - no wonder so many foreigners are risking life and limb to break in........



so much for "great" Britain, no wonder the natives are leaving in their droves.......





And it will only get worse - you mark my words........



rant over.............

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:27

bigoz. My list was not meant to include all riots but merely to illustrate that riots can take place with white people involved.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:31

John Msg 40: Not only have I read it, I actually bought a copy many years ago, hope that answers your question fully and he was right.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:32

I simply prefer an objective discussion. Racist rants help no one even if the yobs in question are mostly black. I did however notice plenty of pink face amongst them.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:35

Britvic, that paragraph sums up the situation here in the UK. Enoch Powell was so right, he was a visionary man, he was branded a rascist, of course he wasn't, he could see the problems that lay ahead.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:38

John yes there were white faces but I wonder just how many were brits, there are a lot of Eastern Bloc immigrants in Tottenham, I did say in an earlier msg that I was referring to all immigrants.

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:38

negnick



I thought about living in thailand but the thought of how easy you could get stitched up put me off big time,if someone plants a small amount of drugs on you,youd be screwed.



I dont think colour has anything to do with it.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:39

Britvic; I agree "it sounds very familiar"

BUT one cannot blame the ethnic minority, they should rather blame the "politically correct" decisions gone mad by the stupid government members and ministers they elected! They make the legislations and in doing so cause their own police and public to become racists, or at the very least "ethnic minority haters". Hence, more butter on the bread of the Nationalist parties.

I am not even British, but I watched in awe and disbelief the way some immigrant workers/families were pampered, whilst young married British couples found it hard to buy a home or get work! I believe a combination of the situations expressed above, politically over correctness, violent/racist police force, absent minded/perverted politicians, and the need for Black Economy for a wealthier trade has brought things to what they are now. Hence, the current fight by the TCs against having the same situation here (which is two thirds of the way to becoming a reality)...

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:45

Hetty,



thanks for explaining that the pink faces could be eastern european immigrants. May I go on to say they could also be French tourists on a weekend in London. Or US citizens on a holiday in London, wanting to soak up the atmosphere of the riots. OR they could even be white english scumbags who are using the situation to hit out at the police and to line their own pockets with the proceeds of the looted property.



Enoch Powell was a visionary????



I'm sure that you will soon be saying the same about Nick Griffin, Colin Jordan and Oswald Moseley.



PS



want to buy a pair of jackboots??

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:50

Now below are just some of people shot and killed by the police between 1980 1nd 2007 under "iffy" conditions (between 1983 and 2005 30 people were shot dead by the police):

In June 1980, hostage Gail Kinchin and her unborn baby were killed in crossfire between West Midlands officers and her boyfriend.

On 24 August 1985 John Shorthouse aged 5 was shot dead in a police raid on his home in Birmingham. The incident produced hostility towards the police over two days after John's death when a policewoman was dragged from her patrol car and beaten by youths. Following the Shorthouse case, West Midlands police abandoned its practice of training rank-and-file officers for firearms duties and formed a specialist squad.

On 15 January 1998 James Ashley, 39, was shot and killed by Sussex Police while naked and unarmed during a drugs raid at his flat. The officer who fired the shots was cleared of any wrongdoing after a trial at the Old Bailey.

(cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:51

In June 1999 Derek Bateman, 47, of Surrey was shot by a single bullet through the heart after his girlfriend went to a neighbour's house and telephoned the police, telling them he was armed and had been threatening to shoot her. It was later determined that the weapon he had brandished at the police was an air pistol.

On 22 September 1999 Harry Stanley, a painter and decorator, born in Bellshill near Glasgow, was walking home when he was shot dead by two Metropolitan Police officers following an erroneous report that he was carrying a sawn-off shotgun in a plastic bag. The officers challenged Mr Stanley from behind. As he turned to face them they shot him dead at a distance of 5 metres. It later emerged that the plastic bag actually contained a broken table leg that Stanley's brother had just fixed for him. Following numerous enquiries (in November 2004 a jury returned a verdict of unlawful killing) both officers were exonerated after 6 years of court cases and inquiries.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:52

I once went to a dinner party at Andrew Fountaine's (National Front). After listening to hours of racist rubbish from everyone some woman eventually asked me what I thought about repatriating the blacks. I said no, repatriate all foreign men of whatever colour, then pass legislation to allow all English men 5 wives. One white, one pink, one brown, one black and one a sort of yellowish colour. My then wife was none too pleased with me. I wasn't allowed out for months.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:52

It was found that neither officer was liable for criminal charges nor would face any disciplinary sanctions. However, the report did make notable recommendations to the police on the post-incident procedure to be followed after a shooting and about challenging members of the public from behind.

On 12 July 2001 Mr Andrew Kernan, 37, a gardener from Wavertree in Liverpool was shot dead in the street by the second of two shots fired by officers of the Merseyside Police Force. The officers had been called to the scene by the victim's mother, Marie Kernan, who had also requested a psychiatric medical team attend her home because her schizophrenic son, Andrew Kernan, was being aggressive. At least four police officers from the Merseyside force went to Mrs Kernan's flat but Andrew Kernan ran into the street, dressed in his pyjamas, wielding a Katana. Mr Kernan slashed off the wing mirror of one of the police cars. After negotiating with him for 25 minutes and using CS gas, (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:57

officers fired two shots. The second bullet hit Mr Kernan in the chest and he died on the way to hospital. In the case of Andrew Kernan, the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Norman Bettison took the unusual step of sending a letter to Marie Kernan with his apologies. The then Home Secretary David Blunkett ordered a review of how armed police were used, and the dead man's mother, Marie Kernan, 59, commented: "You don't kill somebody with a mental illness. I demand justice for Andrew and won't rest until I get an answer". A verdict of lawful killing was returned by the jury at Liverpool District Coroner's Court on 9 December 2004, and the Coroner, Andre Rebello, praised the actions of the officers. The IPCA Commissioner, Mike Franklin, stated that “officers involved in this case were presented with a rapidly evolving scenario. Firearms officers at the scene acted bravely and the investigation has found no evidence that their actions fell below that required of them"

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 15:58

On 22 July 2005, Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian national living in London, was shot dead by unnamed Metropolitan Police officers on board an Underground train at Stockwell tube station, in the belief he was a suicide bomber. He was shot in the back of the head 7 times. Initially, police claimed incorrectly that he was wearing bulky clothing and that he had vaulted the ticket barriers running from police when challenged, but did not modify their statement until the correct information was leaked to the press. They later issued an apology, saying that they had mistaken him for a suspect in the previous day's failed bombings and acknowledging that de Menezes in fact had no explosives and was unconnected with the attempted bombings. Following an investigation by the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), the Crown Prosecution Service announced on 17 July 2006, that no charges would be brought against any individual officers in relation to the death of Jean Charles (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 16:02

Sir Ian Blair, Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police when the shooting occurred will, however, face charges under Health and Safety legislation from his professional rather than personal capacity.

In June 2007 Anne Sanderson was shot dead by an armed officer in Sevenoaks, Kent after being seen with what was later identified as a ball bearing gun, which she refused to relinquish when challenged by police. It was the first fatal shooting of a woman by UK Police in 27 years (and first time ever that the shooting was deliberate). A month previously police officers had found notes in Sanderson's car which had suicidal connotations, but no action was taken. A subsequent IPCC investigation noted this,, but stated that they "did not have a negative impact on the incident's outcome". In addition, the report said that officers involved "performed their duties conscientiously and diligently". An inquest jury returned a verdict of lawful killing. (Lawful ?)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 16:05

On 17 January 1983 Stephen Waldorf was shot by police hunting David Martin, who absconded from custody at Marlborough Street magistrates' court where he was due to face a charge of attempting to murder a police officer. Waldorf was critically injured in a police ambush in a west London street after he was mistaken for Martin. He was shot five times, and then pistol whipped by an officer who had attempted to shoot him in the head, but had already used all his ammunition. Waldorf made a full recovery and eventually received compensation.

On 28 September 1985 Cherry Groce, a mother-of-six, was shot and paralysed by officers looking for her son. The shooting sparked riots in Brixton. The officer involved was cleared of all criminal charges.

In July 2005, West Yorkshire police tasered a man in hypoglycaemic shock, believing that he was a potential security threat. (cont)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 16:14

On 2 June 2006, two family homes were raided in an operation involving 250 police in east London. One man, Abdul Kahar, was shot in the shoulder by police during the raid, but was later released without charge. The raid was based on faulty intelligence...

The above are only a small part of the whole story! What would YOU feel or do if your son, father, mother or daughter was one of the above? Perhaps now people can understand better why so much hate against the police - well protected by their superiors and courts against any wrong doing - is actually causing anti social behavior as such! Had some of the "cowboys" been punished deservedly and put behind bars, then maybe the public would not feel they have to take the law into their own hands! In their mind, what they are actually doing is not attacking the poor shop keepers on the high street BUT challenging the police "We'll make your job hell for you - If you are so good come and get us"!

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 16:15

While I have no sympathy with the police for many reasons it appears with gun crime that its 'damned if you do - dead if you dont'. In this case there is no question that the man had a gun and that a policeman was shot, the exact order of things remains to be disclosed. However I wold feel that if someone is wielding a gun then the police made the correct decision.



I dont think we can even begin to compare this incident with the likes of the Charles Demenezez or the Steven Waldorf incident in the 80's when a man was pulled out of his car after being mistaken for a wanted felon and shot, even though unarmed and innocent.



I feel that the police should have reacted more quickly, informing family and press of what had happened. Despite this I believe that the incident has been used by many who couldnt give a damn about the shooting, as excuse for the rioting, looting and arson that ensued.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 17:29

Are we talking about the same Enoch Powell, who was a minister in the 50's and he actively promoted the influx of Carribeans to come to Britain to work on the London Transport system?

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 17:42

Yes, that is the one, get them in cover the labour shortages. In many cases to do the low paid, dirty jobs that Brits did not want.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 17:45

Then he warns the country of the perils of immigration. Hypocrite.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 18:30

I have researched on the net if he was calling for immigrants to work in the UK and I can find nothing, now I am not that hot on the net, if it is true then so be it but he didn't invite the world and his wife and he could see the problems that lay ahead, and yes he was visionary because what he said has come true. FACT

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 18:40

Powell was noted for his oratorical skills, and for being a maverick. On Saturday 20 April 1968 he made a controversial speech in Birmingham, in which he warned his audience of what he believed would be the consequences of continued unchecked immigration from the Commonwealth to Britain.

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 18:44

message 64.



After the steven waldorf affair that is when the law changed regarding wearing seat belts!



You had to wear a seat belt by law so that when the police shot you,you did not fall out of the car !

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 18:48

Im not sure if he "encouraged" immigration and asked them to work on the underground I would think more like you are here now so find a job and the London transport system needed people at the time.



I believe 47% of the London population is now ethnic and I wonder how many actually have a job ?

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 18:53

Whatever the reasons for the riot it is those that have lost businesses and their homes that are now terrified to live there that I feel for, who is speaking for them, we keep hearing who is to blame, well they certainly were not but they are the innocent victims in all of this be they black or white!!!!





I am sick of hearing people saying what a wonderful person he was and that he would never have shot at armed police officers, well sorry but he did have a gun, apparantly one his friends has said it was hidden in a sock, well sorry but if he was so innocent why did he have a gun!

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 18:54

Sorry I should have said 'what a wonderful person Mark Duggan was'

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:02

He was Minister of Health and encouraged immigrants to work there. He never had any responsibility for transport.



Turtle



100% of the population of London are "ethnic" many of them being ethnic English! Many more might even be like me, two Irish grandparents and two Scottish grandparents but born in England.



Even you are ethnic!

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:05

Message 63



Great post.



Glad we can agree on at least one subject !

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:06

I am sorry but you clearly are an apologist for the type of behaviour of last night and frankly I can't be bothered to answer any more of your messages.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:12

msg 75. The police do get things wrong and there is much corruption but what would we do without them.

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:13

Hetty



What Powell said has come true Fact!



I really dont know how you consider that statement fact:



In his so called 'rivers of blood speech Powell, a classical Greek scholar alluded to a Virgil Poem stating 'As I look ahead, I am filled with forboding: like the Roman I seem to see the River Tiber foaming with much blood'.



He was alluding to a particulary vicious war which saw the deaths of 1000's of Greeks and trojans. We have certainly had civil unrest in the UK, but surely even you cant see the similarities between 1000,s of soldiers being slain in battle and the civil unrest in the UK.



Even if you say it is yet to come, which I dont believe, it would still be 25 years outside the 15-20 years that he claimed.



The only conclusion that can be drawn from this is that Powell was wrong although his speech certainly made things difficult for race relations, with racist attacks on minoritys increasing tenfold afterward.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:13

I find the people who slag off the Police are the ones that got caught !

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:15

John read message 76.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:17

Turtle I agree, no police force is perfect and it is mostly criminals that slag off the police.

bondi


Joined: 12/07/2007
Posts: 116

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:17

When I turned on the TV, it was like deja vu - I worked for Lambeth Council at the time of the Brixton riots in 1981, listened to the crowds shout Scarman Out! when the inquiry was going on and also viewed first hand the riot when Cherry Groce was shot in Brixton in 1985, then we had Broadwater Farm. Millions of pounds of money was pumped into Brixton following Scarman's recommendations and it did indeed improve the area, however, when any incident occured there was a tension in the air you could feel it before anything kicked off - you knew not to go out.



Whatever happened last week when Mr Duggan was shot, we won't know until the IPCC have investigated. unfortunately, it does take time to get all the facts and come to a conclusion, this is the way of things. It doesnt warrant the outright criminality of a mob to loot, burn and attack all and sundry in its wake.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7fETsKYkA

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:22

bondi, very true, and the same will happen in Tottenham, there will be an investigation which will cost millions that the country cannot afford and the outcome will be, blame the police and then throw money at the area so they can destroy it again at a later date.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:26

Johnw watch the clip Turtle has posted and learn !!!

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:26

I am not an apologist at all. I would take a very much harder line indeed with them if the policing were anything to do with me. If you had troubled to read my posts you would appreciate that. Your views are coloured by your prejudices not the facts.



People talking tripe helps no one. To spew out racist claptrap helps no one in this situation. The problem here is to do with law and order and the total failure of the system in the UK over the last 30 years. Both education and parenting has gone down the drain among large parts of the population both black and white. That this problem arose in a predominently black area does not make it a black problem per se.



The is essentially no difference in behaviour of the uneducated and ignorant in the UK whatever colour they are.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:37

Hetty



Msg 85



You really take no notice of what anyone actually says do you? Get a grip.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:39

It also has most to do with the immigration policy of the last 30 years!!!!!!!!!!!

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:47

What a.











post edited for personal remark ........... Simbas

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:52

Hetty,



You begin to get quite tiresome, what happened in Tottenham had nothing to do with immigration policy. It was caused by a situation getting out of hand and criminal elements of all ethnic backgrounds taking advantage of the situation.



To say it has most to do with the immigration policy of the last 30 years does an injustice to all the law abiding immigrants and their descendants.



Remember whoesale immigration into the UK began in the late 40's and those immigrants are grandparents and great grandparents of offspring who in the main see themselves as British and are proud to be so.



Only the racist diatribe that has been spouted here would give most of them cause to regret that.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:56

DoctorW



Would you say that the behaviour of the white teenagers involved in this riot was as a result of the immigration policies of the indiginous British and Romans remnants with regards to the Viking and Anglo Saxon newcomers in the 6th and 7th Century?

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 19:59

JohnW



I hadn't thought of that, thanks for putting me right!!

phebes


Joined: 07/07/2010
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 20:14

Message 91 - Brilliant - sums up your point entirely.

I also agree with DocW, 'It was caused by a situation getting out of hand and criminal elements of all ethnic backgrounds taking advantage of the situation.'

It reminds me a bit of what happened in Vancouver recently - although that was all over an Ice - hockey game I believe.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 20:24

The only numbskull here is you and that is my last post to you.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 20:37

At last, some good news from you. Thankyou.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 20:38

I was wondering how many of these riots were caused by immigration policy.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 20:48

I truly believe that the race card is just to easy an excuse, I was assaulted in London many years ago by 2 black girls over a parking space of all things, when I pressed charges have a guess what her excuse for hitting me was? yes that's right, I called her a N...... according to her, which was a total lie, when I turned up in court with my black fiance she then started shouting abuse at him about selling himself out to a white woman. It is too easy to make this an excuse of this sort of behavior. I left the UK with my daughter because I did not want to become a second class citizen in my own country so I moved here and yes I am still a second class citizen but not in my own country and the sun is shining and my daughter van be brought up in a lovely environment that at the moment if nothing else is safe.

I am not entitled to child allowance as I left the Uk after working for over 25 years there but a Pole can claim this for his family that are still in Poland......

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 20:57

hetty; "The police do get things wrong and there is much corruption but what would we do without them."

You just proved my point about the naivety of the British public at times! No one said "get rid of the police", so please stop basing your arguments on false assumptions just to prove your point! What CAN be done is, punish the police who are corrupt and who kill because they are very trigger happy, racist, stupid or whatever - just like you would punish any other member of public if they committed the same crime! Instead, the police always walk out with praise instead of getting punished. Those who are likely be punished (especially in corruption cases) opt for a early retirement with a sizable lump sum plus a wage, and no charges are brought against them! You may play the blind, but most of the ethnic population in UK (who are at the receiving end of the bullet) are aware of this. Thay is why they no longer wait for the result of an inquiry before a riot.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 21:09

parkview; you are now talking about a different subject! Most of English people, especially those who live away from ethnic minority dominated big cities such as London, Manchester, Birmingham, Leicester etc. are not racist at all. And those who do live in these cities do not go out to express their feelings in a racist way - but given the chance, they would understandably vote for a party who has the interest of their own nationals at heart. And who am I to say that is wrong!

On the contrary, I discovered on my recent extended stay in London that, it is actually the "black people" who are racist against the other nationalities. Not just the British white, but anything that is "white".

What we are discussing here however, is not the behavioral pattern of one ethnic minority, buıt the underlying reasons behind why people of any ethnic origin decide to behave like a pack of animals - as is the case in all these riots.

I personally believe, most of it is due to police provocation

steveafc


Joined: 12/12/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 21:12

message 20..............cant be to read thru all the other crap............bernie grant ?............i knew that ................just read !!!









Post edited , no need for language such as that you inferred ....... Simbas

natalie


Joined: 03/05/2009
Posts: 323

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 21:52

Have followed this thread with interest the point I would make is this. In any walk of life ie. medicine,social services, police to name but a few, where vast numbers of cases are being handled, there are,unfortunately, going to be mistakes made. Would you BIGoz go out and face these murderous thugs virtually unarmed as our police have to do? I think not. Crowd control, where to are up close to these whats to stop one of them slipping a knife up under your met vest, a big nothing. What

goes on at the top of the Met is one thing, what the police in the street have to face is another. They have a lousy job to do and it is getting worse. Yes I have a vested interest, my daughter is a DC and son in law a RRD, and yes, based in Tottenham. The frustration they feel and all other police is when

they do charge, after a lot of hard work, these thugs get a few months in a holiday camp. Rant over. Arm the police I would say, maybe get these thugs to respect them more.





Post edited for offensive language ......... Simbas

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 21:54

Msg 100 , edited for reason given

Simbas

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 21:55

@ msg 94, Hetty to JohnW: (...) The only numbskull here is you and that is my last post to you. (...)

▶ Welcome to Hetty's club, JohnW... I'd never thought that you and I would one day be in the same club, but the UK oracle Hetty made it happen...

P.S. Hetty, I'll never forget your first serious and great start on this board: "The Turks were in Cyprus before the Greeks". Priceless.

Indeed, back on topic.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 21:59

My mate lives in Tottenham when the riots and looting started



he hid where he would be safe





















the job centre

vonny


Joined: 25/06/2009
Posts: 476

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 23:37

I too.lived in Tottenham many years ago when the Broadwater Farm riot occured. Most people do start out with a peaceful demo,But,there are groups,black & white who turn up just to make trouble and its preplanned,its the same as the football hooligans.I have a black friend in her 20.s and this is what she wrote on her facebook status today-

''Martin Luther King must be turning in his grave!!!! :( So sorry for anyone who is a victim of North London riot. Please note that not all black folk are ignorant.

parkview



Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 1123

Message Posted:
07/08/2011 23:58

I agree vonny and I too have some very good black friends who are also disgusted by the riots but at the same time they also agree that there are so many blacks that have a huge chip on their shoulder and will always play the race card when it suits. If these people that are rioting are doing it because they believe an injustice has been made don't you think they loose all sympathy when they start looting their own local businesses, and destroying property of innocent people, what has this got to do with anything. I went on an anti racist march years ago but after what I saw never again, there were too many people there that did not want to march and make a statement but just destroy and loot, another excuse. I wonder just how many people in the riot in Tottenham were there for very wrong reasons. And your right "Martin Luther must be turning in his grave"

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 00:10

natalie; Perhaps I lack good English to express myself or could it be a case of you not willing to understand what I am saying? You are referring to and evaluating the events ONCE A RIOT STARTS! I am trying to express, why the riots that endanger lives of many honest policemen and public members do start in the first place. You have my sympathy for having a daughter and a son in law serving at the police force, and so do the shop owners (belonging to ethnic minority) living in that area!

What you have just said does not change an iota of the history of bad decisions made by the Met Police commanders and over eagerly carried out by their subordinates, giving the chance to some members of the force who are just as bad as the thugs in the street, shooting or maiming innocent people! All that needs to be done is punish such idiots by sending them to the "holiday camps" too so that it would be a deterrent to others, who given half the chance, would act the same way to shame the police!

vonny


Joined: 25/06/2009
Posts: 476

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 00:18

parkview ''there are so many blacks that have a huge chip on their shoulder and will always play the race card when it suits. I fully agree with you there. according to a person who was there,they said the The riots were not because the police shot Mark Duggan in the face The riots started because police decided to beat a 16 yr old girl with their batons for no good reason.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 00:24

Also; No one is asking anyone to face riots "unarmed". The love of being the judge and the executioner by some demands that police should be armed with arms other than those that can carry bullets to kill! Many countries, including USA use rubber bullets. They knock people out rather than kill them. In Turkey they use special water canons mounted on armoured vehicles, the pressure of which can knock down half a dozen rioters at a time (I believe French also use them). But gun loving, gun tooting Met police has to challenge people with deadly weapons, even when they break down their front door at 4 am in the morning, scaring the shit out of everyone and shooting anything that moves! Excuse me! What is wrong with using rubber bullets during such busts?

You said "Arm the police I would say, maybe get these thugs to respect them more" - well, the police ARE more armed then ever before. On the contrary, they don't seem to get more respect from anyone! So I have to disagree with you there

bertieboss


Joined: 22/07/2011
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 01:27

No BNP members on this forum then !!!

Doc W - the voice of reason !

Anyone see any similarity with the thugs in Belfast and Derry - and they aren't black or asian!!!

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 01:43

Natalie; are these the police people are supposed to respect? Watch these and let us know please! That was someone's husband and probably someone's dad! If these happened to a Kurd in Turkey, they would have half a dozen court cases in the Human Rights Court against Turkish authorities!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zvQMxd1J-I&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpySS_H7crw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgtWXfd7rcQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTjv1U2rhoY&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=055_Fq0jItE&feature=related

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 08:18

DC msg 103.



Nothing to do with this topic but you are clearly stalking me:





Back on topic.





Post edited , uncalled for comment ......... Simbas

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 08:34

@ msg 112, hetty: This infamous video was taken by Mr. Zerochlor and obviously enjoyed by you. Says it all.

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 08:44

DC, now back off and stop stalking me.



Back on topic.









Post edited , take this as a warning , and take some time to reflect on your style of posting.......... Simbas

denizen



Joined: 21/08/2009
Posts: 388

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 09:01

about time refs to this so called video were deleted at source.

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 09:15

msg's 12 , 29 , 101 , 112 ,& 114 edited for reason given

Simbas

hetty


Joined: 31/07/2011
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 09:15

Simbas, please explain to me why he is allowed to come in to hijack this thread and put back on topic at the end, with no other purpose other than to attack and stalk me and yet when I respond I get a warning.



He want action has a reaction.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:05

Sadly for many years London has turned into one of the biggest ghettos.

It started in the time of my parents when they were driven out by the jewish community, the rest is history.

Don;t blame the police they are only trying to do a very difficult job.

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:53

Big OZ A lot of statisticas against the use of firearms I think if you have the time look at the similar incidents in the USA you may have been unwise to quote them.I agree that IF a police officer lets off a round he should be accountable, the ipcc i do not think is fit for purpose.As some one that was in tottenham when the riots started the police should have been better informed the people new 2 weeks before.But back to now the guy that was shot was armed why? he fired on the police I would think he had little idea of safety when he fired he could have killed anybody.In my mind I applaud whoever shot him and anyone else carrying an illegal firearm.If you carry a gun real or imitation to treaten or to commit a crime you need to know you will be fired on police and soldiers do not shoot to wound.The people that rioted in tottenham had no right to do so over an armed thug they did it because they could then they looted and burnt property.As for rubber bullets its a joke.

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 13:43

cavalryman:



'As for rubber bullets its a joke'



Try telling that to the relatives of innocent civilians who have been caught up in riots in Northern Ireland, and have been killed or maimed by rubber bullets, try telling it to the relatives of hundreds of unarmed Palestinians who have been killed by rubber bullets shot at them by Israeli troops, try telling that to......., yes it goes on and on and on. Just google it and see.



Rubber bullets are far from a joke!!!

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 14:13

Cavalryman...Rubber bullets" also known as "Baton"rounds are definitely no joke they can maim or kill...

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 14:40

Many years ago Harringey community leaders were told by a senior police officer that they had a problem to deal with due to astronomical numbers of violent street crimes, 90% committed by blacks. Bernie Grant demanded and received an apology for the racist comment because the majority of the population in the area were black, ignoring the fact that the very large majority of the victims were white. So where sat the racism ? I have spent much of my life in foreign countries where racism towards whites makes it impossible to live there with any degree of safety. One of the reasons why Brits desert the UK is that due to the bigger evil of positive discrimination many authorities such as housing, immigration, police, councils, even parliament have ever growing numbers of senior officials placed there not on merit but by positive discrimination selection. Because of this it is inevitable that things will get worse and the biggest victims will be those of UK birth and nationality.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:05

Once again ,is that not the prediction made by Enoch Powell .....When very few listened.. Especially Ted Heath...

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:22

DOCTOR W AND MARTIN D41 what are you basing your experience on news reports or actual facts.They were used in ni and unless very close inefective though some were replaced with plastic and even betteries.Illegal but effective and no never used the last 2

jamboree


Joined: 25/06/2011
Posts: 88

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:24

a very sad time for England. it is time the the government get in order to sort these dirty looting scum ba$tards out.



England is to soft and as long as they are these kind of things will happen. if they were beaten and jailled they would think twice before such actions. they know that they can do this and get of with a light sentence or none at all..



reading some of the comments here what are the police meant to do just sit back and let the scum do as they please? i just dont get some people...

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:24

cavalaryman; I have my suspicions about the whole account of the event; the guy shoots the radio, clearly seeing the police wearing bullet proof vests and holding huge MP5 carbines, gets shot!

This is not an accusation, but a strong suspicion based on related facts which an average news reader would not even consider! It is clear from the account of the events, there was an informant who told the police well in advance about the movements of the shot man that night. Police do not drive around with CO19 officers, hoping they may come across a riot, or recognise a suspect traveling in the back of a minicab! Below describes when CO19 officers are called:

SFO units are proactive wing of CO19. They are usually used in pre-planned intelligence-led operations such as actions against armed robberies or raids on drug warehouses. The number of active SFOs is around 90, organized into 6 teams. SFOs usually include a sniper element that provides overwatch for the assault element.

cont.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:28

jamboree....just one small point London is not England, but it is sad none the less....

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:36

You may well be right big oz but I stand by what i said carry a gun as a cicilian you get shot,rob using a gun imitation or not you get shot.If a policeman shoots someone he gets charged if he is in the wrong.The gangtsa culture is based on fear and bullying its too much a way of life here and young idiots think its cool.They need to be taken down hard and soon.It amazes me when you here white youth trying to speak like jamaican hoods.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:39

They had intelligence, so they must have followed the mini cab he got into, from an informed address. Lets stop there for a minute. Use your sniper to shoot him at the leg with a rubber bullet, or have couple of police officers hiding close to his front door with Tazers, and there is your man, paralized to do what you like with! But no, they let him drive to main road, stop the cab and shoot him - with 2 bullets - to make sure he is dead. Lets assume, these police are so dumb, they leave themselves restricted in their choice of confrontation

But which pocket on the chest of his bullet proof vest was his radio luckily placed? There are no pockets on the sides of those vests! The radio is almost always strapped to the shoulder of the vest for ease of communication and minimal use of hands! Below is a link to Police Uniforms - look at the CO19 uniform displayed (5th picture from last) and tell me where the mike is:

http://www.tellycars.com/costumes/police-uniforms/ (click to enlarge)

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:45

U2 batteries being discharged from riot guns were not the soft touch of rubber - fact.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:48

I agree completely with you that "if you chose to live with a gun - you'll get killed by a gun". But my problem is, was the man really carrying a gun? AND that is what should be looked well into with no stone unturned. I am not saying işt was the case here but scenarios with non-police guns had been set up before! And the public are well aware of it! If that is the case, and remember the GF said "I am very surprised that he was carrying a gun" after the event - there you have the recipe and the excuse for the thugs to go on riot.

Remeber when they shot an unarmed guy in cold blood, thinking he was "Martin" the police killer, due to "mistaken identity". Had that been Martin (unarmed) knowing well they would be in the wrong shooting dead an unarmed criminal, I wonder if we would not have heard a similar scenario...

jamboree


Joined: 25/06/2011
Posts: 88

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:49

mr martin the government = primeminster = 10 downing st = power over england. at the moment these riots are in London England, but how long before the riots spread all over the country ? i hope i am wrong.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 16:09

I am sorry but if the occasional mistake in shooting a gun bearing crimninal dead is made and it means that decent law abiding citizens can live without fear then i have two things to say



Shoot stright

Shoot twice

hwilde


Joined: 16/09/2010
Posts: 230

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 16:15

Hippo



It is the "occasional mistake" which means that "law abiding citizens" live in fear.

DesiH


Joined: 24/03/2009
Posts: 152

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 17:52

Extract from Todays Daily Telegraph



It has emerged that a bullet found in a police radio was issued by the force, suggesting it was not fired by Duggan.



Strange.

JohnW


Joined: 23/04/2009
Posts: 601

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 18:01

Hetty



I have just watched a CNN report on riots in Brixton. Lots of teenagers throwing bricks etc at the police. Every one of the rioters white. By your criteria they must all be descended from immigrants. Could they all be descended from the 60 Polish women that were on the Empire Windrush?

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 18:45

Cavalryman,



Just look on the web for very good evidence, from courts and government departments. Also look at the use of the bullets. There are distinct rules on the use of rubber bullets ie. fire at the body. This is because hitting the head can cause brain injury and possibly death. There is also instructions regarding the range of use, using at a closer distance can also have fatal consequences. There is also cases of children killed after being struck by these bullets (children cant stand the impact like adults).



Look at the reports below, one from a US goverment source. There are plenty more but quite honestly they are easy enough for you to find yourself.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/17/palestinian-girl-killed-rubber-bullet

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16167715



However you are right in one respect, rubber bullets dont kill - its the idiots that use them that are the killers!!!

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 18:47

As usual a thread being hijacked by the usual suspects (DC/Hetty) for their own personal vendettas.



Why can you all not wait for some facts to to appear before giving vent to your own prejudices and political bias ?

Riddles


Joined: 26/04/2011
Posts: 429

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:05

Thank goodness for some voices of reason on here ...but a tip DoctorW, don't cite The Guardian or you'll have all the Mail readers scewering you with their crochet hooks!

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:17

Perhaps we should be aiming the crocet needles at the rioters

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:26

dr w as usual its the idiots that fired it rubber bullets were fired on the orders of an officer I have been in the crowd in ni and been hit by them as I was in civvies for a reason.the children that were there should not have been there but they start by throwing stones get the army involved on cue out come the "innocent civilians "behind which are the gunmen.They were rioting the rubber bullets made no difference we were petrol bombed and had vehichles driven at us then fired on don,t quote stuff from the web to me they should have been hit hard and fast and before you spout about bloody sundaythis happened night after night after night if you use the army use it properlywell said hippo taptap

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:39

Watching the very sorry live TV from the UK (the spreading London riots) I have to add that the main radio stations from many European countries are broadcasting the despicable events live also. It's a very damaging event for the touristic image of London (and actually the UK).

If "anti-democrats" (I won't use more offensive language) do not get reigned in by strong measures - democracy is losing. But it's not only the UK. Look at France, where the police does not enter anymore many suburbs of the big cities. See Germany, where the same devastating development is going on for years now. Italy. Spain. It's all weakness from the "away with us people" - the signs of the destruction of (Western) Europe are clear.

We can only hope (...) it won't go as fast as I fear.

But the outcome is inevitable. History teaches us the facts throughout the millennia. No (weakening) society survived.

Enjoy the day.

glw215


Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 178

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:41

Cavalryman. How does Bloody Sunday feature in this debate. There were no petrol bombs, during the Civil Rights march. The British Army did however shoot dead 14 Civil Rights Marchers then spent the next 30 plus years claiming the innocent civilians were gunmen.



Keep on topic, lTottenham riots, else we could end up discussing the number of innocent Irish civilians killed by British Plastic or rubber or battery bullets.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:43

I wish more people would look at the big picture and the backgrounds instead of looking at incidents of the day. There's more to it than the events of the day.

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:47

I have every sympathy with the troops in Northern Ireland and had relatives who served out there with the forces. However it is clear that quite often in NI and elsewhere they were and are not used as intended. There is documented evidence of 17 people killed in Northern Ireland by rubber bullets and masses more in Palestine, various South American states and even in the USA where many police forces have them.



If used within the terms of use they can cause a lot of pain bruising and discomfort. When not used as they should be they are lethal!!!



Which illustrates my point - they are no joke!!!

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:49

it does not but I was waiting for someone to pick on it as you did, the usual suspects pandered to the republicans to produce the very outcome they wanted so blair could look good.the verdict was wrong

glw215


Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 178

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 19:57

Prime Minister David Cameron announced the verdict and apologised profusely for the behaviour of the British Army on that day. If you have information that indicates that the Bloody Sunday Tribunal verdicts were incorrect perhaps you would like to share this with the appropriate authorities. If not, keep on topic, preferably presenting facts in support of your argument if indeed you have one.

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:07

What an absolute loss of control !

All talk and know action.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:09

London is burning (msg 1!) - and some here go back to "Bloody Sunday". Why not discuss what should be done (if anything could still be done) to save from destruction the white (fact, fact fact!) civilisation in Europe/the UK?

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:11

I think I have presented facts as supposed to scooping the internet .First hand ones at that.Rather than sitting in my armchair complaining

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:15

msg 150 ?

Im talking about whats being presented on bbc news.

glw215


Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 178

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:17

Cavalryman, I am confused, were you in Tottenham??

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:21

Never mind Tottenham, lewishham and brixton now and other parts of london,Breaking into jewlers shops and petrol stations in hackney.



More cars being set on fire,more shops being looted.



Its going to be a very busy night in london,its spreading across the City.



Any excuse now is being used to riot.

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:25

You do seem confused glw we were discussing rubber bullets and I gave you a first hand report what it was like to be hit with one .Yes I was in tottenham in 1985 had a pub on the roundway thanks for asking now back to topic please

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:28

Big oz Cannot find a report on the round that hit the officer but first reports were that it was homemade it should be public in a day or two

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:50

Just watching live reports from Lewisham, so many burning cars. I worry so much for the good people in London. Its just so awful.

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:56

Just watching this white kid in hackney trying to egg on the police,what a fool he looks,arm in a sling,some of his hair missing.

Looks like a bag head in fact,stood in front of 30 police in riot gear,he deserves a right good kicking,not for being cheeky,but for looking a right gimp

jamboree


Joined: 25/06/2011
Posts: 88

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:57

its time to call in the army set a curfew, as the police are to weak to deal with this problem. stop the scum before it get realy out of hand. i feel so sick and upset to see all of this madness..

Tootie


Joined: 28/08/2008
Posts: 2037

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:02

he deserves a right good kicking,not for being cheeky,but for looking a right gimp

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:05

Lewisham looks like its getting out of control,sports shops seem to be a favorite for the looters, NIKE Trainers must of got expensive !



More vehicles burning there.



Insurance premiums to rise !

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:09

In fact,that cheeky gimp was given a £5 shot of pebble to try and entice the police by one of the tree swingers

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:37

msg 158 what army. what we have look we are deployed to x Need to put that lot of scum bags in the army, bring back conscription. When they arrive in our country and are of an age, Yes you can come in but you sign up, you fight where we send you. You may not have heard of the country you are going to but we are defending it. When you do that we consider all your applications.

jamboree


Joined: 25/06/2011
Posts: 88

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:38

it is now all out of hand smaller riots are breaking out all over london, i think there is a news black out not to scare people, but it is realy getting very bad now.

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:45

Live pictures now from the SKY TV helicopter of a group of 20 or 30 smashing a car on a side street and trying to set fire to it,they are filling it with paper now and trying to light it.This is crazy,a journalist just had his camera took off him by a few youths,the car is now on fire,not 1 police man in sight.its a free for all.This building in peckham is now out of control,flames is very high.



While the prime minister is enjoying his holiday,his city is crumbling.unless he has cut it short!



Still the city is burning,the whole of london in now under operation Gold

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:48

Theres no news blackout jamboree message 163



im watching skynews live



Theres no blackout



Looks like a hurracaine has swept through london

LittleQueenie


Joined: 20/04/2011
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:49

Why are they all so destructive.. It looks like the set of Mad Max!

LittleQueenie


Joined: 20/04/2011
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:52

Home Secretary 'those responsible will be punished'



And how will they work out who is responsible when they are all wearing hoodies and balaclavas?!

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:54

That song London's Burning London's Burning, did we think we would ever see it.. The poor resident's, shopkeepers etc, how will people get to their jobs, we have all watched the riots in lybia, Egypt etc but did we see anything on this scale. At least Theresa May did cut her holiday short, David if he has any sense he will cut it short and take control and Boris . I have family in Harlow hope it does not spread that far. If this is as suggested by the police comminissor thats its all been done by face book, twitter etc then where next

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:54

Just a thought: ... and where are the parents of all these looting youngsters?

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:54

She is a joke. 250 arrested, 25 charged,i think they working on percentages.



All the charged will be bag heads who are rattling or turkeying and need a toot,they will sign there life away for a bag

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:55

message 169



in cyprus

DoctorW


Joined: 28/11/2010
Posts: 334

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 21:56

Seems like cameron is doing a 'Nero', but in this case fiddling around on his holidays while London burns!



Still Teresa May is around - she will soon put a stop to it.

LittleQueenie


Joined: 20/04/2011
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:01

Message 169



Probably at home fencing the stolen cigarettes and Nike trainers!

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:04

message 173

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:05

Now Birmingham under attack x

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:35

wont b long b4 the manks start.



Its alot of years since moss side flared up.



This may well be the perfect excuse

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:37

I hope not x All the cities that want to be or have been capital of culture cities. Many brough back from the dark ages and they want to ruin them. Please God NO x

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:50

BREAKING NEWS



Loads of free BBQs tonight in london.



No invite needed !

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 22:51

Its what happens when the youth have no future

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:21

the Pm is returning to the uk after midnight

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:21

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/local/topstories/9183466.LIVE__Riots_in_Croydon/

Simhar


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 227

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:41

Omaintenance msg 178



Keep your stupid crass statements to yourself. some of us have children and family and businesses in these areas and it's no joking matter

viper


Joined: 14/07/2008
Posts: 119

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:46

Now Croyden is in flames !!!

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:47

Deputy mayor of london . Kit malthouse.



He is also full of sheet



can you imagine appealing for parents to get there kids back in off the streets,the parents are out there with these kids,is he bark raving mad,what is he smoking



What they need to do is cut the supply chain line from the middle to upper white drug smugglers who control most of the smuggling into the united kingdon and then pass it down the chain to the people at street level and that is where the problems begin,attacjk the top supply chain,not the street dealers,attack it before it hits the street.

wow. now they smashing up a ladbrookes betting office, oh my lord..lavender hill.even a wimpy burger bar,,not one police man in sight..looting any shop they can ..journalist asking them if this is FUN,he just had his camera smashed from his hands,that will teach him to ask if this is fun !! clapham gone mad

Simhar


Joined: 18/05/2009
Posts: 227

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:48

looting in Clapham Junction

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:55

They are asking get your kids home, people who breed these would care . YEAH RIGHT David I have to agree with you to a point they know who brings the drugs in, they knoe who controls the channel tunnnel, dover etc. even I know that. Is not italian maffia as you know, but is there a kick back. Now it may be the TAs to come in. The police are being reactive not proactive but they have to be responsible for kids. This is just so awful. They are bringing London down just before the Olympics. Its RULE OF THE MOB

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 23:58

Just heard Ken on the tv....100% right in my opinion

Multi-millionaire politicians dont cut it for a generation without any future

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
09/08/2011

All so sad xxxxx

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:02

Lewisham, Peckham, Croydon and Hackney. The reports coming in are terrible and it's spreading....

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:03

message 186



lilli



i will say only this,if this is possible,then i would not put anything past MI5/6 and all the other agencies,even NSIS,now they are corrupt



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszATUJ4IRE



After watching this little movie,ask yourself what really goes on behind closed doors



When huge amounts of money is involved anything is possible.



I will not tell you what lord lucan,s uncle told me he was a good friend of princess margrets,a very good friend

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:03

Cameron cutting short his holiday and flying home.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:04

It's just pure criminality.

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:04

Bill



old news

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:06

poor christine keeler and mandy rice davies amongst other stories



Oh i can see then shaking in there boots....what does he know......



come n find out my little friends

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:07

criminality pays peoples wages Bill

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:09

The legal system is too weak thats why these things go on. What's the Police going to do IF they catch any of them - nothing, the courts don't have the power.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:11

Dave. That's no excuse.

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:12

KIT malthouse is at it again



asking to get off the streets



Does he really think folk will take any notice of him



They to busy filling there pockets or shopping trolleys !

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:13

message 197



I agree.



But in this day n age there does not have to be an excuse !



Look at london tonight

0maintenance


Joined: 22/09/2010
Posts: 2179

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 00:20

new thread started . .................................