Polar Bear attack, fool hardy or just adventure?

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:24

I just find it incredible that an adventure holiday is organised in a place that has a history of Polar Bear attacks.

That they need to give students proir traning in how to use a rifle if attacked.



If this was a state school there would be a national outcry for the organisers to hung drawn and quartered for gross negligence.



Years ago when I was in the industry they stopped us taking kids caving because of the risk of radiation.



Now I am certainly not against outdoor persiuts and believe strongly that kids should be exteneded and you can never remove the risk factor but to me this was just foolhardy.

mistymoppet


Joined: 29/07/2011
Posts: 132

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:33

It does seem crazy but you also have to ask why parents allowed there kids to go, schools can only organize these trips if parent allow kids to go.

cyprusLulz


Joined: 01/08/2011
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:36

about the same as the 61 year old lady swiming from cuba - usa without a shark cage.

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:40

Me thinks the "cotton wool culture" is alive and flourishing on this forum!

mistymoppet


Joined: 29/07/2011
Posts: 132

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:43

Difference between cotton wool and allowing down right stupidity which the facts actually prove for themselves msg 4

Quarmby


Joined: 15/09/2008
Posts: 975

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:48

So don't go out in case you get killed ? Where do you draw the line?

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 10:56

Quarmby- I am certainly not advocating a cotton wool culture i beleive very strongley in adventure, risk, extending people i worked in that field for many years with both adults and kids.



What I am saying is that particular expedition was fool hardy and involved unacceptable risk's.



More importanly this was organised from a private school and I have seen not one word of castigation about the organisers.



Now if this was a state school that on an adventure event a child was killed then there is an immediate uproar for heads to roll.

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 11:02

This has been tragic but danger exists everywhere. Accidents do happen regardless of precautions.



The company involved in the expedition have been running and arranging these trips for years and on this expedition there were young people from various backgrounds, including state schools.

My own son went on an expedition with this company and it was an amazing experience for him enhancing many of his skills and developing some he didn't know he had.



These are young men and women you cannot wrap them up in cotton wool for ever. Yes you can take precautions and yes on this expedition I believe rifle training was given to all beforehand.



As a teacher I worked for an authority who lost, tragically, seven children in two accidents, one involving canoeing and one involving skiing. I know that risk evaluations will have been undertaken.

Nature though is unpredictable.



My thoughts are with the family, but it would be very sad if the opportunities that these trips give were remov

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 11:03

'If you go down to the woods today - you're sure of a big surprise.....'



Probably not 'The Teddy Bears' Picnic'!

BoTanica


Joined: 22/12/2009
Posts: 714

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 11:04

I saw a programme about a similar expidition / adventure holiday in wild brown bear country (In USA) and they rigged up an electric fence every night just in case. These holidays aren't cheap so you think that some sort of extra precautions could have taken.

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 11:19

There was a trip alarm wire but sadly on this case it failed to work.

Precautions were taken.



A lot of the young people on this trip, from my experience, will have raised their own expenses through fund raising sponsorship events. They didn't have to be rich to go as seems to be the underlying theme to some posts.

Horatio was an Eton pupil.

It was not just Eton pupils who took part, young people from all walks of life grasped the opportunity offered.

BoTanica


Joined: 22/12/2009
Posts: 714

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 11:51

Trip of a lifetime and it ended like this. His poor parents.

mistymoppet


Joined: 29/07/2011
Posts: 132

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 11:58

msg 11 I don't see anywhere that people have said it was just rich kids

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 13:58

mistymoppet, by using inference and implication skills I deduced that because;

Hippo is pointing out it was a private school as opposed to a state school that was involved.



There was also a comment about expense in message 10.



If Horatio had gone to a state school, as opposed to Eton, the outcome would have been just as tragic, so I just wondered why the differentiation between types of schools was necessary.



Teachers and organisers involved will all be scarred for life; but however well organised, by whomever, accidents will still occur sadly.



RIP Horatio.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 15:24

I did indeed draw attention to the participants where from private schools and I think it is important to draw parrells with past incidents where there has been loss of life.

When these unfortunate incidents happen there is always a clamour to aportion blame, usually it is the teachers or the school that is brought to task.

Strangley in the accounts I have read up to now this has not happened.

The British Schools Exploration Society who were the organisers acording to the reports I have read did not act in a safe and responsible manner, they relied on a trip wire, whilst a pearson on watch is the recognised norm.

To be able to shoot and kill an animal especially when you have been awoken from sleep with an outdated rifle that had 4 misfires would overface even the most experienced hunter. Then to relay on an untrained participant with rudimentary training to me is gross negligence.

We demand head of a state teacher that has the misfortune to lead a group that has a fatility.

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 16:31

No Hippo, that was not the case when lives were lost in the state schools of the authority for which I worked.

It was the managing director and the centre manager who were tried, and found guilty, of manslaughter charges.



As a result an act of Parliament was passed and the AALA was established, a body to regulate adventurous outdoor educational activities. This was welcomed by all involved with providing adventure experiences for young people.

Although at the time many feared it would reduce the chances for experiences of this kind, the reverse has in fact.



In any case the head teacher was not leading this expedition, or the one in Norway.



It's a wonder teachers are still prepared to give youngsters all the extra curricular activities and experiences that they do, considering the way the blame and compensation culture is going.



RIP Horatio.

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
08/08/2011 20:35

I just wonder how many of those who posted -ve comments have actually had dealings with BSES, the organisation involved with the school? I was involved as a teacher of outdoor pursuits in a school in Notts in the early-mid 80s and found this company to be at the top of concern as to H&S regarding participants on their expeditions. The actual details of this expedition are only, currently, available via the press who will print anything to secure sales. Should we not await the findings of the official inquiry before castigating and apportioning blame? Adventure, by its very nature, involves risk to life and limb, whatever the nature of the activity. Please give the parents, teachers and organisers some credit for their ability to make informed choices about the children/students.

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 10:06

Well said Tom.

I have had experience of dealing with BSES as both a parent and as a teacher.

I fully endorse your comments.

mistymoppet


Joined: 29/07/2011
Posts: 132

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 16:57

msg 17 how can you give If parents, teachers and organizers credit for there ability to make informed choices when a boy is dead? The trip wire didn't work and was the only thing in place to warn of attack.



As an adult you can make an informed choice about the risks and it is up too you but I don't think the same can be said of kids. They will naturally believe and trust in adults to know if it's safe or not.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 17:35

Well please explain to me the Kathy Davison incident?

janjin



Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
09/08/2011 18:55

I was listening to a reporter who had stayed at the same area, but had stayed in a hut.

A Polar Bear had got into the hut.

He stated that the trip wire warning systems didn't always deter the larger bear.

He didn't consider the tent's a safe accommodation considering the amount of bears.

cypgab


Joined: 09/01/2010
Posts: 338

Message Posted:
10/08/2011 00:03

janjin - and the name and qualifications of this reporter please?



I'm writing, like some others, with experience of the BSES in this same area. A number of the comments have been way off beam.



Don't you think we should wait for the details instead of speculating.

mistymoppet


Joined: 29/07/2011
Posts: 132

Message Posted:
10/08/2011 07:48

Message 22 would love to hear your experience with BSES in the area this tragedy occurred please, it may help shed some light on things.

janjin



Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
10/08/2011 13:26

Sorry cypgap I'm not sure re his name!!

I was going to check as I think it was Dan Snow but haven't had the time to research.

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
10/08/2011 14:24

Ref msg 19 - you are quoting press statements as fact!! No reporter was actually there, ergo any information published is either conjecture or 2nd/3rd hand comment - not necessarily fact and this is my point. The parents, teachers, students and BSES staff had all the information available to them prior to the trip and made a judgement call as to the value of such a venture. The fact it went so tragically wrong is lamentable, but 'softie, pinkie, tree-hugging' side line comment is just valueless and will benefit nobody. It does, of course, facilitate your opinion, whatever value that brings to the party! I do appreciate childcare is a different approach to educating late teenagers.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
10/08/2011 15:48

HoI think i'm fairly qualified to make some judgement.



MIC, BCU senior instrut, BASI 3, Mountain Rescue both service and civilian. Instucter in a number of outdoor ed centres (including JSMTC). Expeditions to most parts of the world including Baffin Island.



In my opinion things were wrong.



Past name of BSES 'British Public Schools exploring society. Just to answer the poster who questioned why I mentioned the State sector.



By the way I never lost a student/ pupil/ client in all that time, and I can assure you some of places I was in would extend anybody.



The original point i was trying to tease out is why there has been no outcry to oportion blame when in other tragic events of the past the media is quick to condem.

Panchocat


Joined: 29/11/2009
Posts: 1333

Message Posted:
10/08/2011 17:27

"Past name of BSES 'British Public Schools exploring society. Just to answer the poster who questioned why I mentioned the State sector."



Exactly----- The PAST name!



"If this was a state school there would be a national outcry for the organisers to hung drawn and quartered for gross negligence." (sic: to be hung..........)



A huge generalisation and certainly not the case in the majority of tragic deaths involving schoolchildren. You only have to look at the outcome of the Lyme bay canoe investigation to realise that.



"The original point i was trying to tease out is why there has been no outcry to oportion (sic:apportion) blame when in other tragic events of the past the media is quick to condem."(sic: Condemn)



Ah yes! The media outcry-----Trial by popular press.



It was a tragic accident and I am sure the accident investigators will do their job and any further regulations necessary will be implemented. But they and not the media will do that job.



RIP Horatio.