European Arrest Warrant Issued Against North Cyprus Property Developer

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:43

an article published today



http://your-story.org/european-arrest-warrants-issued-against-north-cyprus-property-developers-260649/



looks like theres trouble ahead

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:47

According to the paper, European Warrant of Arrest has also been issued against the following persons, Aziz Kent, Huseyin Caginer, Mark Unwin, Turham Beydagli, Michele Hunt, Terence Wilkins, Ian Smith, Linda and David Orams. The most recent person to be deported from the UK to Cyprus for dealing in Greek Cypriot property in North Cyprus is Gary Robb, who is under arrest in the Cyprus capital Nicosia.



Why arrest the Orams again?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:48

Why the orams ?

thought they were done and dusted

or is this an old article?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:49

Sorry posted at same time

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:50

That's a very limited list and I doubt any of persons mentioned, apart from the Orams, will be leaving the TRNC or entering any European country soon. So the Europeans Arrest Warrants are just bits of paper gathering dust and were probably done just to placate the Greek Cypriots for a while.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:53

Msg 5, so they are not allowed to visit the uk

also not a very good business advert

and what about uk assets?

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:53

Philbailey,

It's not an old story as the report states that it was in todays paper dated 16/8/2011.

As for the Orams. They may well have lost the house war, but now the Greek Cypriots want extract an extra pound of flesh to put others off doing what they did.

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:55

None of the people named can visit ANY European country, for if they did they would be arrested at Passport Control.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:56

TimothyCadman. I agree it's a very limited list, doesn't make sense?

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 00:58

The real only answer to having a life in the TRNC is to sell up ALL your assets and move lock, stock and barrel. It then makes no sense for a warrant be issued as they won't be able to get anything. This was the mistake the Orams made and so the Greek Cypriots went after them through their UK address , and of course won at the end of the day.

TimothyCadman


Joined: 13/12/2007
Posts: 1040

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:00

No1Doyen,

I feel that the Greek Cypriots have wind that those on the list may have investments elsewhere in the world and will go after those to try and extract revenge.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:01

Some people don't want to cut their ties with the Mother country. Put any assets you have in your children's names or a relative you can trust.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:02

But must people on here

(even today)

recommend keeping a "bolt hole inthe UK"



even No1 himself suggested so .

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:04

Philbailey. Surely you have a bolt hole?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:06

TimothyCadman. Message 11. I think you could be right.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:13

So no more free health

for those return trips

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:17

Message 13. Just because I suggested a bolt hole it doesn't mean people on here have to agree.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:26

Message 16 - "So no more free health for those return trips"





What a shame if one of these people needed specialist treatment that wasn't available here.



Don't you think so?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:29

Guess they will go to a non-eu country

and have to pay

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:51

Does this mean that those GC that do not avail themselves of the IPC can issue EU arrest warrants on the folk residing on their land?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 01:55

Msg 20' I doubt it



when/if it closes who knows

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 02:09

A bit confusing. Did the owner of the land Robb developed go to the IPC first before having the right to apply for an EU arrest warrant?



I thought everyone now needed to go through the IPC before being able to take any other action?

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 02:21

There is a difference here between Civil and criminal remedies. The IPC is a civil remedy available to a dispossessed person to obtain compensation for the loss.



It is however illegal in the Republic of Cyprus to deal in occupied land, a criminal offence. It is for this offence that European Arrest Warrants are issued,



This is an escalation by the ROC in the political game. Possibly becuse UK did not challenge Robb's Extradition. There is plenty of evidence in UK courts of the Orams' dealing in occupied land so they are another soft target perhaps.





Harold

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 03:56

Any EU member state asked to execute a EAW can refused to do so if the offense in the requesting state is not also an offense in the state being asked to execute the warrant, except for a list of specific offenses that are exceptions to this.



In the case of Gary Robb, one of the charges on the EAW was of fraud. Fraud is on the list of exceptions, thus the warrant could not be refused on the basis that the offense cited by the RoC was not an offense in the UK.



In cases where the only offenses cited by the RoC are those that are not offenses in the excuting state and are not on the list of exceptions, it remains to be seen if a EAW would be executed.



PS I am in any case dubious of the accuracy of report in the link in msg1 at this stage in the absense of coroborating reports from other sources.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 09:07

I believe this has political backing from the UK & RoC. It's a firm signal that, in case of a collapse in the re-unification talks, a second surge of sales does not occur in the TRNC like the period post referendum in 2004.

Teresa


Joined: 21/11/2007
Posts: 1018

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 09:12

I think if this is true then Gordon will confirm that his dad knows of this. Also seems strange that 2 banks are on there now i wonder which branch will travel???

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 11:14

Hi all,



Yes we learned of this yesterday morning. It's very strange because:



1. My Father has never been a property developer.



2. The Celebrity and the Chateau and indeed all our premises are situated on pre-1974 Turkish title land... as the GCs themselves accept: http://www.cyprusemb.se/2011.01.18.MEMORANDUM-HOTELS.OCCUPIED.AREAS.pdf



3. We went through this in 2004 to the huge embarrassment of the GC Foreıgn Ministry who, ignoring the better advice of the GC Interior Ministry, attempted to include us on a boycott list of "illegally occupied" hotels. When they amended this (in face of our threats to sue and after strong words from many different countries (thanks UK, USA, EU, GC Interior Ministry et al) the GC Foreign Ministry then put it about that my Father, with 3 others, was subject to an EU arrest warrant. However, again to their huge embarrassment, this was found to be an outright lie when he returned to the UK and discovered no such warrant had ever been issued.

Sundance


Joined: 15/07/2010
Posts: 213

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 12:09

The EU must be getting a bit feed up with the GC crying in to their coffee, this country will never have a sulution, if this is how the GC see the way ahead, I served in the south many years ago,enough said that why i am in the north,



Sundance

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 12:36

BritishBuyer msg25 why do you believe 'this' has political backing in the UK ?



Personaly I think the whole report of a report linked to in the first post is most likely bogus. I doubt new EAW have been issued, to the likes of the Orams or Mr Kent. The very idea that an EAW has been issued against 'organisations' like the Turk Bank is plainly nonsense, you do not arrest a bank, nor issue arrest warrants for them. I think the whole thing is most likely intentful disinformation. Until I see any reports from reliable media sources that will remain my view.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 12:51

Much of this post of course depends on the veracity of the link in Msg 1.



Msg 23 I respectfully suggest that the Orams would have a more than reasonable case to argue against being extradited on an EAW by way of Double Jeopardy unless the RoC has found another 'criminal matter' relating to the Orams not previously dealt with or disclosed.



As for the others mentioned in the link in Msg 1, given the RoC legislation they could all be 'fair game' depending on the way the EAW was worded. (I am not suggesting that those mentioned deserve that fate, merely that they probably meet the criteria the RoC are employing.)



As with the Indictment and pending trial of Robb in the RoC if they obtain a conviction against him for the various charges they have laid they will have 'case stated' and a precedent to pursue and prosecute others. A successful prosecution would also bolster the weight of EAW's that follow and are lodged in Europe.



Continued.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 12:52

Continued from Msg 30.



As Erolz has pointed out any EAW is subject to scrutiny by the courts in the country in which it is lodged and those named in the EAW are protected to a limited degree by the aspect of 'Dual Criminality', however, by throwing a catchall of a fraud charge over all of those named in the EAW's I would suggest the chances of defending the request for extradition would be pretty slim. That is for those who those who chose to be present in court to defend being extradited.





For those who chose not to attend court to defend an EAW I would imagine the matter would be dealt with in absentia and would be cut and dried and an order for extradition would be granted with certain arrest awaiting any of those named who visited any EU member country. Probably without the opportunity for appeal at a later date should that person be arrested and detained in any European country. I am not certain of the aspect of rights to appeal following an in absentia hearing.)



Contin

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 12:58

Continued from Msg 31.



Another consideration could be the RoC may then seek to convert the EWA into something more global but perhaps that is speculation either way they seem hell bent on making life as difficult as possible for those they allege have contravened their recent legislation.



For those who feel that they may have contravened this RoC recent legislation, selling up and moving assets may not be the perfect answer as there would be a paper trail of information that could still be used as evidence in any EAW or subsequent trial to follow.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 13:21

An interesting and informative post slatnumber7. What is very evident is that the GC are trying absolutely everything possible and exploring every avenue to get legal redress, prevent any further development and make those who have purchased GC land or property, legally accountable for their actions.



Not to mention the publicity generated, to help keep their plight alive.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 14:14

Link in msg.1: a bit of sensational reporting which simply do not tie up. I know for certain that Turkish Bank did hire a shop in guzelyurt which previously belonged to a Greek Cypriot. When sued in the south, the advocate for the Turkish Bank went to the court and handed over the keys to the plaintiff with good wishes. Now another Turkish Cypriot is using the same shop

As far as I know HSBC is careful not to use any premises which is not pre-74 Turkish owned. The hotels that belong to Azi Kent are all built on TC land. The Orams were not allowed to demolish their villa in Girne by the local authorities. As far as they are concerned they abided by the court order. So this article is intentionally misleading to freighten any prospective buyers. ıt will not wash with the Russians or the Iranians, the new buyers.

ismet

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 14:46

ismet



How long do you think it will take the Russians and the Iranians to cotton on to the malpractice that still goes on in the TRNC? they really don't need to be mislead or frightened by an article! word of mouth and seeing for themselves what happens in the TRNC courts is enough to frightened even the most hardened of buyers! although there will always be some who like to play Russian Roulette

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 15:19

msg. 35,

I am aware of one Russian who paid in full for an apartment in a hotel complex. The sale agreement stated that the property was free of any mortgage or any encumbrances but this was not true. He has the keys to the apartment but not the title deeds. The bank wants the current price in full to hand over the title deeds. The sale agreement was drawn up by an advocate in Girne. We suggested that the buyer sues the advocate for negligence. Instead he put the property on the market for sale through an estate agent. I am sure he will find an unsuspecting buyer like himself.

ismet

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 15:25

So msg 36, another happy buyer

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 17:08

Whichever way you prefer to look at it, building on GC land and attempting to sell it with TRNC title deeds is deemed illegal by the EHCJ as indeed was the case of the Orams. This high profile case was supposed to set an example so as to deter unsuspecting Brits from buying something they knew very litttle about.



Unfortunately, despite of this, agents and property developers alike are still aggressively trying to sell land and property which they do not have international permission to do so. The situation in northern Cyprus is no different to that of occupied Palestine and the illegal settlements that are built on dispossesed Arab land for Jews from Europe and America to buy and live upon...



This is why i believe that new European Arrest Warrants have been issued to these very well known names to try and put this industry to sleep once and for all. After all its not just the previous title owners who are aggrieved by this practice but also the purchaser who are misled into buy

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 17:19

They have been collecting evidence for years.

The thing i pulled up last week with everyones names and faces advertised by Caesar resort, this sort of thing is not needed.

Every time you cross to the south they are collecting your details.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 18:00

Do give it a rest, all over the western world there is a property slump. But if you really need to sell your property - yes, sorry to disappoint you, even in the TRNC - you only have to ask a sensible market price.

There are still many buyers coming to the TRNC, including Brits, and all your scare tactics will not put them off. I would like to see the roc try their nasty little tricks on a Russian.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 18:15

Msg 34. I remember the Turk Bank matter in Guzelyurt but I don't think it's that reason they are named in these EAW's. (if the link is accurate) It's more likely that these banks have given financial assistance by way of loans or mortgages to the land subject of the RoC legislation and EAW applications.



This aspect could be pursued by roping the banks and any others who have assisted by way of financing the construction work/ land purchases into the overall schedule of charges. The method I guess would be by Indicting them as an Accessory.



(Search the words .... Whosoever shall aid,abet,counsel or procure.... )



That would tend to indicate where the RoC is seeking to go with these EAW applications.

Troodo


Joined: 12/06/2008
Posts: 1002

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 18:24

LIKE TO SEE THEM TRY THAT ON A TURKISH BANK.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 18:31

BritishBuyer msg 38 says "building on GC land and attempting to sell it with TRNC title deeds is deemed illegal by the EHCJ as indeed was the case of the Orams."



Yet more confused and misleading assertions. Firstly the Orams case was NOTHING to do with the ECHR. It was a civil action in the RoC for trespass. The issue then arose could such a judgment in the RoC courts be applied against assets held in the UK. Eventualy it was demmed they could.



The ECHR does not make judgments saying it is illegal for an idivdual to buy property in North Cyprus on disputed title. It makes judgments on infringments by STATES of indivduals human rights. It has ruled that Turkey has infringed the rights of GC dispossed by the events of 74 and required Turkey to provide a valid local remedy for such infringments of their rights. Turkey has done this by setting up the IPC.



You are just posting misledaing and confusing assertions that are not factualy correct. Why yopu are doing so is another thing.

InspironDream


Joined: 10/08/2011
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 18:37

So they can only arrest foreign investors outside of Northern Cyprus?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 18:38

The whole thread here is based on the premise that what was reported in the orignal link is accurate. That new EAW have been issued for people like the Orams and the Kents and that action is being taken against entitites like the Turk bank. Yet there is no reporting of these allegations in any reputable media outlet so far that I am aware of. As Ismet has pointed out already there are glaring inconsistencies in this 'report'. I have pointed out there is no other reports from reputable media sources that confim the original report.



The most likely senario in my view is the orginal report is itself an intentful attempt to mislead and confuse and create fear based on untrue assertions as it is likely that some of the posts here are too.



If an EAW really has been issued against the Orams, why is there no reports of this anywhere except the claims in the orginal link ? Why have they not been arrested ?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 19:04

philbailey,



as someone already suggested this is all to do with scaring off new investors in the jockying

for opinion in the post-talks/final separation period around 2012



it is hardly going to impinge on the individual property buyer



as someone with more than a passing interest in all these controversial issues let me ask:



to what extent will these manoevers succeed in bringing turkey to the negociating table?

and when do you think greek cypriot claimants will be "moving back" to north cyprus?

...the month and/or year will be quite sufficient

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 19:36

Erolz



the report comes from Volkan, a nationalist anti-Greek newspaper who wants union with Turkey.



'The case C-420/07, Apostolides v Orams, was heard by the Grand Chamber of the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg. A panel of judges ruled on April 28, 2009 that British courts were able to enforce the judicial decisions made in Cyprus, which uphold the property rights of Cypriots forced out during the invasion.'



im just against developers who sell properties for below the real cost price in the TRNC just so they can launder thier ill gained money. There is enough unsold house in north cyprus we dont need anymore built. A complete ban on any more properties should be imposed until the ones already built have been sold. How long that takes, God only knows....

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 22:05

bb,



..where ARE all the new british developers anyway, hiding under the bed?



the brits seem totally borasic, sxxx scared of unemployment, and inflation

and credit crunched, and terrified of anything south of sussex, after many

bad vibes



locking the stable door after the horse has bolted well describes gc stunts



waiting for philbailey to tell us when turkey leaves, and nicosia reoccupies



isn't that the ultimate object of the exercise or did I miss something vital?

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 22:38

Troodo (mess 42)



Ah but the very large International Bank the HSBC is not Turkish is it?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 22:46

BritishBuyer the report comes from the link you gave which in turn CLAIMS that it is what was said in Volkan. Even if it is an accurate account of the Volkan story, the claims in it do not seem to stand up to scrutiny.



Your unattributed quote about the ECJ ruling in the Orams case is yet another example of misunderstanding and misleading. The ECJ ruling was nothing to do with the rights of GC re pre 74 property. It was to do with can a judgment on such an issue in the RoC courts be executed against assets in other member states. If you look at the actual court documents relating to this case no where do they talk of the rights of GC forced out during the invasion. If you want a REAL source rahter than a propaganda one, try this one



http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2009-03/cp080098en.pdf



Nor is the ECJ anything to do with the ECHR. Totaly different entities with different objectives and jurisdictions. You muddle them at will it would seem.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 22:53

Full text of the Orams judgment made by the ECJ (NOT by the ECHR) can be found here



http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62007J0420:EN:NOT



And before you do it do not confuse what the RoC courts have said with what the ECJ says. They are not the same thing. If you goto the bottom of the page above and the section



"Operative part

On those grounds, the Court (Grand Chamber) hereby rules:"



You can see EXACTLY what the ECJ decided re the Orams case and there is NO mention of invasion or the rights of GC to pre 74 property. The case just was not about that. Claims that the ECJ said what you claim in msg 47 are in fact propaganda, not facts in my view.

joandjelly


Joined: 24/02/2008
Posts: 2953

Message Posted:
17/08/2011 23:34

TRNCvictim re msg 49, HSBC Bank AS which is the legal entity of HSBC in TRNC, is a Turkish retail banking company that just happens to be a subsidiary of a much larger group whose Holding Company happens to be a UK plc. Same applies to HSBC in America, Greece, Brazil, etc, etc, etc.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 01:22

Erolz



do not bore the readers of this thread with your legal claptrap. I never said ECHR i said the EHCJ The Euro High Court of Justice! Learn to read properly before you go off on one!



But thats not important ,the fact still remains that a European Arrest Warrant has been issued to several property developers in the north and the ruling by the EHCJ on the Orams will make it easier to prosecute them in a court of Law...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 01:48

BritishBuyer, you are right you did say EHCJ and I did mistake that with ECHR and for that I appologise.



EAW had been issued to several developers in the North back in 2004. To date only one of those has been executed. There is still no collorabarating reports to support the claim that EAW have been (newley) issued to the Orams or the Kents, or that there is iny current legal action against entitites like Turk Bank.



The Orams ruling sets no precedent for the use of a totaly different law as far as I can see. It confirms nothing that was not arleady established by ECHR rulings pior to it.



Despite my error in reading ECHR for EHCJ in your posts I maintain that the orignal article is simply not accurate and is most likely intended to be misleading and create fear based on false claims, like the RoC has issued EAW for the Orams and is prosecuting entities like the Turk Bank, as are some of the posts in this thread. I might be wrong but I still think that is highly likely.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 02:01

britishbuyer:



are you really a british buyer?

cyprusLulz


Joined: 01/08/2011
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 07:18

The Greek cypriot Acting attorney-general Akis Papasavas said that >> he was not aware of any information regarding additional arrest warrants <<



http://cyprusnewsreport.com/?q=node%2F4503



It looks like a lot of scaremongering.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 10:38

The fact remains the same in the TRNC. There has been mass commercial over-development of property on the island since the referendum of 2004. This coincided with the notion that the Greek Cypriots were never going to return or have any form of recourse to their properties in any given future. This notion is simply not true, the Greeks will never give up their fight. its a national cause for them. In spite of this, planning permission is still granted by corrupt government officials to build on areas which have been designated as Green Belt or National Park. These developments get built and are put up for sale at the price of a second hand car for. In spite of this, the majority of potential buyers still shy away from buying into this as an investment. Why?



1. No titile will ever be issued.

2. Permission to build was granted under suspect circumstance.

3. The Orams case has become so high profile that purchasing propertybin the TRNC comes with a British Govt. Health Warning

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 10:48

This story was issued by "cyprusexpat"of cyprusexpat.co.uk . They diseminate information regarding the south. But this story is not published on their site. All information on the site is orientated to South Cyprus. Oh! and they advertise property for sale in the south !

Neither Cyprus Mail nor the Famagusta Gazette cover this story and PSEKA, the Hellenic website also does not mention it. However cyprusnewsreport.com does carry the story but with no evidence to suggest that this is not just scaremongering by some vested interest. They also say "Acting attorney-general Akis Papasavas said that he was not aware of any information regarding additional arrest warrants and referred the issue to the lawyer in charge of Gary Robb's case, Athanasios Papanicolaou. A phone call to Papanicolaou has not yet been returned".

Could be a typical Greek Cypriot ploy to sow more seeds of discontent and disruption.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 11:10

Was anyone aware that Gary robb had been issued an EAW? Did anyone know this while he was serving out his sentance in the UK?



Two days before his release, he was handed over to the Greek Cypriot Police Authorites under the EAW for 13 charges: 11 for unlawful possession and use of property belonging to another, one for conspiracy to commit a misdemeanour and one relating to fraudulent sale. ....



was anyone aware of this.....?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 11:25

Britishbuyer msg28 says "the Greeks will never give up their fight. its a national cause for them." I think you mean the Greek Cypriots ?



It was widely reported that a EAW had been issued for Mr Robb, prior to the end of his sentance in the UK.



By the way the British Government has 'health warnings' about buying property on both sides of the Island.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 12:25

Maybe its time to question the TRNC's guarantee they gave regarding previously owned Greek Cypriot property?

The bigger picture that i see is if you purchased it, it won't be long before you are trapped here. But that would suit them.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 13:53

So are there warrants or not ?



Confused now

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 14:04

"So are there warrants or not ?"



On the evidence presented so far, for the likes of mere 'buyers', like the Orams, it would seem highly unlikely that EAW have been issued I would say.



EAW were issued for anumber of people involved in development back in 2004, including Gary Robb and a number of others. To date only Gary Robb has been subject to the execution of such a warrant.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 16:01

The warrants issued were reported by Volkan Gazetesi. They have listed names of developers & agents who were the receipients of these. I would assume the only way to find out is to go to the courts and ask. I doubt whether any one who has been issued with an EAW would admit to it.......

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 16:36

Britishbuyer have you seen the article in Volkan Gazetesi? Can you read Turkish ? There is a difference between an unkown poster on an unknown website claiming that it was reported in Volkan Gazetesi and if it actualy was reported as claimed. There are serious discrepancies in the linked article. If the Ormas has been issued a EAW it would be big news and in the interests of the RoC prosecution services who would issue such to make it public that they had done so.

Many of those listed in your linked page in your orginal post were had warrants issued against them back in 2004. However the Orams have never been subject to such a warrant, not could they be for a civil action.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 16:47

BritishBuyer:



worth knowing if you are indeed a genuine "British Buyer"

or whether this is simply a "nom de plume"

whereby you are enabled to make perhaps perfectly valid comments,

...although with a somewhat deceptive identification

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 19:02

I will call Volkan Gazetesi and find out where they got their sources from.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 19:24

It strikes me that if the criminal prosecution against Gary Robb is successful then it's 'game on' as far as the GC's are concerned, to attempt to prosecute others however innocent or naive i.e. EU nationals like the Orams who have bought property on 'exchange' land. If nothing else the negative publicity will harm the north politically and especially financially re property & tourism. Look at what the Orams civil case has done already.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 19:30

Hector you assume that prosecuting 'mere' buyers of disputed properties in the North, rhater than the likes of Gary Robb, carries no risks for the RoC, political and legal and I do not think that is the case. If it were the case I think we would have seen prosecutions long before now.

eyebob


Joined: 22/06/2010
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 21:45

Must say,from the list published at message 2, I, for one, am absolutely delighted that an EAW has been issued for one particular person therein!!

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 21:51

eyebob, me too

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/08/2011 22:21

BritishBuyer:



do you appreciate, according to the greek cypriots, if you pay for property in north cyprus

you may not really be buying it because as they say it is still owned by the original buyer?

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 01:47

Andre 514



Yes I do. Before the referendum of 2004, You would not find a British estate agent for love or money on this side of the island. Then within hours of the Greek Cypriot rejection, the only thing you could see in the streets was 'luxury villas for sale'. I personally believe that this entire industry has caused more harm than good to northern Cyprus. Its now one of the major sticking points in the negotiations for re-unification. It has also left many purchasers stuck with something they didnt pay for. Without a proper title deed the property is un-mortgagable, un-transferable, and unlicensed. It shouldnt be the Greeks in the south that should be issuing EAW's but our authorities for breaking the law. But who are they to call the kettle black..???



If the article is true, then I fully support the prosecution of agents and developers. Its not their property to sell , so why get away with it...? The Orams case was supposed to put an end to this, why are the still building.?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 07:39

Blade "They have been collecting evidence for years. ....

Every time you cross to the south they are collecting your details."

Who? The GCs don't take any details.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 08:56

Given that the veracity of the original post is not confirmed there are still doubts that the whole thing is genuine, however, I like to mention the following points.



Msg 68 Hector, 'Game on', Spot on I believe.



Msg 69 erolz, I believe that if the RoC brought about more prosecutions in the past of other couples here in the TRNC like the Orams they would have infact lost international sympathy and it would pass to the under dogs..... those being prosecuted. No they have waited for the appropriate time, as far as the RoC are concerned I believe they have always known that they would get their hands on Robb. There will be no tears shed for him or support in the press. In any prosecution that follows Robb will the known convicted criminal who taints the images of his co accused.



Continued.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 08:57

Continued from Msg 75



Msg 72 andre514, If the RoC can prove the rights to the land they speak of was stolen (and I don't think that will be easy) then those 'rights' can never be bought or sold by others and will always remain with the original owner.



Groucho Msg 74, May I respectfully point out that the RoC do gather intelligence every day from travellers north to south and vice versa. They have cameras (to what degree of high tech who knows) they also have

Automatic Number Plate Recognition and the paper records of those who have an RoC 'MoT' and insure their vehicle to use over there.



Have you ever had your Passport/ Driving License taken in side the RoC Police Office at Metehan/ Ayios Demetios for a few moments or seen it happen to others. The odd question by the RoC Police? They gather and record intelligence. I dare say they also gain access to the details of those who fly from RoC airports using Credit/ Debit cards.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 09:34

Can any of the below confirm or make a statement in regards to the legitimacy of the report made by Volkan Newspaper on 17/08/2011



Aziz Kent, Huseyin Caginer, Mark Unwin, Turham Beydagli, Michele Hunt, Terence Wilkins, Ian Smith, Les Hardy



I am in the process of trying to get this report verified by Volkan.

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 09:48

Re John Aziz Ref my earlier msg 27

QUOTE

1. My Father has never been a property developer.

2. The Celebrity and the Chateau and indeed all our premises are situated on pre-1974 Turkish title land... as the GCs themselves accept: http://www.cyprusemb.se/2011.01.18.MEMORANDUM-HOTELS.OCCUPIED.AREAS.pdf

3. We went through this in 2004 to the huge embarrassment of the GC Foreıgn Ministry who, ignoring the better advice of the GC Interior Ministry, attempted to include us on a boycott list of "illegally occupied" hotels. When they amended this (in face of our threats to sue and after strong words from many different countries (thanks UK, USA, EU, GC Interior Ministry et al) the GC Foreign Ministry then put it about that my Father, with 3 others, was subject to an EU arrest warrant. However, again to their huge embarrassment, this was found to be an outright lie when he returned to the UK and discovered no such warrant had ever been issued.

UNQUOTE

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 09:52

As yet we have received no confirmation either way.



We are attempting to track down the sources of the report and have made enquiries both North and South.



That said, given the facts contained in Msgs 27 and again in 78 and also the odd inclusion of the Orams - whose case has been adjudicated - the report seems very odd.



Also, I am not sure that Turhan Beydagli has evenr been involved in property development. He was until recently, head of the Hotel Owners' Union.

foodie


Joined: 27/05/2011
Posts: 76

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 11:35

Turhan Beydagli as Lambousa Gordon says was for 12 years the head of the hoteliers union. He has never been involved in property development and has never had an EAW officially served to him.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 23:46

i have been given a link which has a database of who has been issued with an EAW



http://www.law.uj.edu.pl/~kpk/eaw/data/map.html

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/08/2011 23:57

It does not show who has been issued a EAW. The full list of what is shown via the map in your link is here and it does not contain lists of who EAW have been issued against.



http://www.law.uj.edu.pl/~kpk/eaw/data/list.html

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 00:03

Try again



http://www.law.uj.edu.pl/~kpk/eaw/data/map.html

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 00:22

Britishbuyer on the link you have posted twice it shows a map and at the bottom of the map it says "CLICK HERE TO BROWSE ALL FILES" - these are all the files that the map gives access too. The list is the the link I posted. None of the files show "who has been issued with an EAW". You can post the link a thousand times and it still does not show what you said it shows in msg 81.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 00:34

Just to be clear the map you link to was produced as a result of the conference in Krakow, Poland in November 2006. The purpose of the 'database' produced was "THE EUROPEAN ARREST WARRANT AND ITS IMPLEMENTATION IN THE MEMBER STATES OF THE EUROPEAN UNION - CURRENT DEVELOPMENTS AND THE FUTURE"



This can be seen here

http://www.law.uj.edu.pl/~kpk/eaw/



There is an EU wide database that holds, amongst other things, details of all indivduals with an outstanding EAW against them, and it is NOT public information but is used by the relevant law inforcment agecnies in each member state. Details about this database from a UK police source can be seen here.



http://www.npia.police.uk/en/9619.htm



In the UK the databse can be used by "all Law Enforcement Officers who have access to PNC, which include the UK Police Service, HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC), the United Kingdom Border Agency (UKBA) and a number of other investigative organisations."

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 00:35

The link is a database which lists who is currently on the European Arrest Warrant throughout the EU. I presume the public is unable to have access to this database due to security concerns. However, it is evident that EU member, Republic of Cyprus is included in this database and that there is a wanted list which Volkan Gazetesi, obviously had access to , hence why they published certain names in their press edition on the 16/08/2011....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 00:41

Britishbuyer the more you post the more convinced I become that your sole objective is propaganda based on untrue information.



The database you link to is nothing to do with listing who has a EAW against them. The site (universtity) that both produced the information and hosts the link you give says clearly what the information in its database is about. That is implementation of the EAW in each member state NOT a list of who has been issued one.



That Cyprus is a 'member' of the EAW system is not in question. That Volkan ever produced an article saying what is claimed in the link in msg 1 IS in question. The accuracy of what it is claimed was said in that article is CERTAINLY in question.



Please do try and convince me that your objective with this thread is to discover and understand some kind of objective truth and reality, for currently it is hard to beleive that for me.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 01:40

BritishBuyer Message 73:



I appreciate you have replied but I am not clear exactly what you mean about title deeds



Taking the island as a whole, the largest number without is the 100k "buyers" in south

Cyprus whose builder still has a mortgage on the land or refuses to transfer title



While n the north it is possible to own a locally-issued kocan giving full security of tenure



As regards the Orams case I'm not sure it was supposed to do anything much in relation

to estate agents, it was something to do with illegal building and trespass:



But I will defer to the experts on what it may or may not have been supposed to do:

for the average ex-pat the net result was a triumph, since the court then decided that all

property claims must forthwith go the IPC instead, and their remit ends in just 17 weeks

...as you may know

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 01:52

Please.....



all i'm trying to do is find out whether or not EAW's have been issued against developers and agents alike.... i have contacted all local media outlets and they have promised to come back with factual info on the accused. They do however admit that their is an element of truth to the article and that the accused in question have been contacted in regards to what action will be taken....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 03:11

Britishbuyer



Please.....



You have contacted ALL local media outlets have you ? Quite some feat, whatever it may mean !



There are some 'elements' of truth in the article you originaly linked to, unlike in your claim that your link in msg81 listed who had EAW issued against them, but the truths are outweighted by the untruths. That is the essense of black propaganda, the mixing of untruth with truth.



What is true is that EAW for Robb and his two AGA associates Tahir Soycan and Akan Kursat were first issued in 2005 by a Nicosia court amid allegations the three were trading in illegally acquired Greek Cypriot properties in the north. We know that is almost certainly true because it has been reported in credible media outlets.



What is almost certainly not true is that in 2011 EAW were issued by the RoC for people like the Orams and Mr Kent. It is almost certainly not true because it has NOT been reported by a credible media outlet and if true it would have been. [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 03:25

What is more Mr Kent son himself has posted on this forum that neither he nor his father have any knowledge re a recent EAW, though do have knowledge of it being incorrectly claimed that they did back in 2004. See msg27 , msg78 and 79 of this very thread. We have also had 'indirectly' from the Orams a claim that they have no knowledge of such recent EAW being issued against them either on this forum.



You claim to be seeking the truth, yet ignore the above, whilst posting bogus website links saying they list who has a EAW agains them when they do not and suggesting that this site that does not containt the information anyway was the 'source' for the article.



Can you not see why then I find it hard to believe the claim that all you want is the truth? You posted the original link, ingore all evidence that suggests it is hugely inaccurate and add confusion by making claims about a subsequent link that are not true. See why I might think you are not interested in truth ?

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 10:41

Erolz



Like I said, I have contacted the editors of the main newsper groups in the TRNC and have asked them if they can clarify any truth to the article Volkan Gazetesi has made on the 17/08/2011 regarding the EAW.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 10:59

Very confusing

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/08/2011 12:35

Nobody said black propaganda needs to be true.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
21/08/2011 03:55

british buyer isn't,

the propaganda is a sign of weakness not strength,

and return to north cyprus they won't



trust me

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
21/08/2011 06:41

Andre14 you are right, desperation tactics seem to have set in. All evidence that the south feels things inexorably slipping away from them.



PS are you a doctor?

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 14:44

Well, British Buyer...you have gone remarkably quiet all of a sudden, so obviously you haven't had any confirmation of the "facts" printed in Volkan Gazetesi.



Are you going to apologise for spreading rumours and causing people stress?



Somehow I doubt you will!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 17:23

he's gone out on a date with lilacladyboy:

he thinks all ex-pat properties are at risk,

she fears she will lose it

Jodienjon


Joined: 12/05/2010
Posts: 316

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 18:36

sorry if this has already been asked, but why are they putting arrest warrents out for people over here when there is also land being built on that was owned by turkish cypriot people that side... are there not arrest warrents being issued that side...



It works both ways does'nt it??

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 20:33

Jodienjon - as far as I can see it is far from clear that any new EAW have been issued. A small set were issued back in 2004 or 5 against developers and others involved in such development, but none were issued then against 'mere' buyers and I have not seen any credible evidence to date that suggest this has changed.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 20:49

jodienjon,



if indeed there ever were any such "arrest warrants"!

it may be another malcious posting put out as a spoof to snare the gullible



on many threads erolz has explained far more coherently than I ever could,

the limitations of trying to use international law to scare people off investing



the orams showdown is a case in point, the court deciding immediately

afterwards to refer any new "claims" to the time-limited IPC



I think his object was to preserve cyprus somehow, for a return to the old system:



although how that could be achieved with the gas fracas, the controversial nicosia

presidency of the eu in 2012, the white i.d. card business, the likely end of the talks,

the pipeline project, and impending bankruptcy in the south ....still escapes me

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 21:34

Well andre514 and erolz



I do know for certain that EAW are issued for Gary John Robb, Tahir Soycan, Mark Unwin and Akil Kursat! so Mr Soycan, Mr Unwin and Mr Akil Kursat, need to be careful where they travel to!



I think the Orams have suffered enough, certainly the TRNC Government don't seem to have helped them? Birdsong perhaps you could tell us if they have?



They certainly have steered very clear of helping anyone else, or perhaps andre514 and erolz you know different? if so please enlighten the rest of us!

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 21:38

Meant Akan Kursat............................... I will write 100 lines ............................

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 21:56

So what has happened to the Orams ?... they seem to have disappeared.



Have they been silenced or is there still some legal stuff going on ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 22:12

TRNCvicitim msg 102 and these are all the people who were issued with a EAW by the RoC back in 2005. I still have yet to see any hard evidence that new EAW have recently been issued by the RoC against 'mere' buyers of property in the North on disputed title. There are all sorts of rumors running around suggesting that new EAW arrest warrants have been issued for people like the Orams or other 'mere' buyers, but as far as I can see there is no actual evidence that supports these rumors so far.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 22:19

Sorry for going quiet, I have had contact with several newspaper editors in the north regarding this article and am currently being told not to mention any names. I am also getting this verified by an independent newspaper in the south. What I can say however, is that there has been new EAW's issued, but am not in a disposition to release the names on this forum at current. I will however, update full details as soon as I have license to do so.

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
23/08/2011 23:52

......"Michele Hunt, Terence Wilkins, Ian Smith, Les Hardy"....



Ian Smith I know and have heard of Les Hardy, who are the other 2. Is it just because these people were/are Estate Agents that they have been issued with EAWs.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 00:04

Britishbuyer what makes little sense to me is that if the RoC was issuing new EAW it would surely be in their interest to announce they have done so publicaly, like they did when the issued them in 2005. Why would they issue them but keep it secret that they had ? Even if they were issuing them and wanted to keep that secret for some reason, they would need to inform the people they were issued against that they were wanted for specific charges, for if they did not tell the people they were wanted and give them a chance to appear voluntarily, that would in itself undermine the validity of the EAW and be grounds for its no execution in another EU state. So why if they have issued such warrants have none of those who they have been issued against said anything? Like I say it makes no sense to me and until I see hard information rather than suggestion and speculation I will remain sceptical.

foodie


Joined: 27/05/2011
Posts: 76

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 07:48

All I can say is in 2005 my husband was supposedly named as having a EAW out against him and this was in the local papers it was reported. He has been abroad several times since and no problem. Now he has been named again. He is not and never has been a property developer, builder or estate agent. It seems people are named by scaremongers because they ( greeks ) have read about them in newspapers etc. As for 12 years my husband was the President of Kitob.

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 09:23

Message 109, so is your husband Mehmet Dolmaci?

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 13:16

Mehmet Bey has been head of Kitob for the last two years or so.



Prior to that it was Turhan Beydaglı.

blade


Joined: 19/06/2010
Posts: 1286

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 13:55

Erolz,

if they were issuing them why would they go public? Would it not be far better to issue them and wait for the person wanted to use the greenline crossing unaware?



Its back to the same old thing, people worried and whinging about what may or may not happen. At the end of the day they didn't care or worry about buying/ selling or renting the so called exchange land, so what has changed? The law in the south is clear, then its up to the individual if they chose to listen or do their own thing. Everyone to their own!

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 16:41

Blade if they were going to arrest people crossing the green line then they would not need a European Arrest Warrant at all. The purpose of the EAW system is to allow one member state to ask another to arrest someone NOT in their jurisdiction. Part of the process of issuing such a EAW would be to have tried to obtain the presense of said person by other means before resorting to a EAW, like letting the person know they are wanted and giving them a chance to submit thmeselves voluantarily.

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 17:02

In specific reply to messages 102 and 104 - No, nothing has been done for the Orams yet. They are still hoping and so are keeping their heads down for the moment.

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 18:23

Thankyou Gordon

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
24/08/2011 22:19

Thank you Birdsong for answering my question 102



Still this TRNC Government bury their heads in the sand



I wish Mr & Mrs Orams the best of luck! as with all victims of the TRNC they will need it!

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 03:14

You would think the orams would support other victims

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 03:38

philbailey msg 117,





another fatuous comment? ....and there I was thinking you had mellowed



anyway, the orams, by their sacrifice (?) helped all other property owners:

giving security of tenure via the IPC which closes its doors on 15 december



the orams pensioners were victims of naivity in appealing to a gc kangaroo

court in person, and got ensnared in your gc propaganda onslaught,

I say "propaganda" since apostolides will never live in the wretched house



other victims, of real property scams, are found everywhere in club-med

europe eg the 100,000 deprived of their title deeds in south cyprus



property in north cyprus is secure apart from turkish title where it is said

ptp is oftentimes witheld



as you know I have explained all this again and again and again

but as they say: you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make him drink

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 05:30

re 118, andre514



>>as you know I have explained all this again and again and again



but as they say: you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make him drink<<



Yes..Isn't it frustrating when you've 'explained' things before and someone re-states something you've patiently 'explained' ..?...



>>property in north cyprus is secure apart from turkish title where it is said



ptp is oftentimes witheld <<



pre74 TR / Foreign owned title is still the most secure - as it can be internationally validated and if someone has to take TR to the ECHR [ after trying the IPC (?) ] they'd win..



I think you're trying to talk up the market, andre514..;)



>>the orams pensioners were victims of naivity <



andre514, the Orams' 'naivety' was a lot earlier - when they 'bought' something without due diligence. The house was built on Mr Apostolides' land...



If the Orams' had ignored the RoC Court Summons they'd have lost by default..

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 07:55

andre514 Msg 118.



I am at a bit of a loss with your comment....... ''property in north cyprus is secure apart from turkish title where it is said ptp is oftentimes witheld''



Can you explain please how property built on exchange land after 1974 in the TRNC and formerly occupied by Greek Cypriots can be regarded as secure?



Are you suggesting that those Greek Cypriots who hold 'Title Deeds' proving that they owned the land prior to 1974 now no longer have rights of ownership?



Also are you suggesting that pre 74 Turkish Title is not secure?



If you would kindly clarify these points I would be grateful. Thank you in anticipation.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 11:02

messages 119,120:



replies to mark and barrie,



can turkish or british title ever be "insecure"?

a lot of the currently advertised property quite likely isn't genuine

and because, as stated above, having paid a large sum you never get to own it:

according to anecdotes on "44" trnc authorities don't always issue ptp



how can trnc tltle property really be "secure"?

easy to get ptp, nobody will take it off you it if turkey stays in cyprus,

which IMHO is a racing certainty



while attempts to use international law to return to an earlier epoch have been

locally noisy but almost universally ineffective



yes I am suggesting that the pre-1974 turkish cypriot and greek cypriot owners

who abandoned their homes or lands mostly take no benefit whatsoever from it:



the principal right of ownership is occupation/possession of a property

in this context paper or internationally-recognised ownership has little or no

saleable value



talking up the market? yes, but...

Spike


Joined: 05/07/2011
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 11:29

andre said: "how can trnc title property really be "secure"? easy to get ptp, nobody will take it off you it if turkey stays in cyprus..."



LOL What ur saying is "exchange" title property is secure only as long the Turkish army is willing to protect foreigners. Not very secure then!!!

Also an admission it's stolen booty ur trying to hold onto.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 11:53

spike,



I din't know where you are coming from, as it were

but I would agree turkey doesn't give a monkeys about protecting foreigners as such

although I stick by my guns about the security of trnc title



stolen booty... and that is your "value judgement" I suppose?

oh yes, and partially "supported" by several ineffectual international resolutions etc

but for sure, poor apostolides will never again live in "his" mansion



in lists of trnc risks: road accidents, swindles, earthquakes and sandflies are biggest

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 11:58

andre514



Before the 'problems' getting ptp Foreign/ TR deeds properties were at a premium that defied your 'logic' ... in fact I'm wondering if this wasn't a 'problem' for those seeking to demonstrate the 'legitimacy' of 'TRNC' 'exchange deeded' properties..



To content that going the international Court route hasn't had positive results is 'silly' .. you DO keep quoting the IPC.. however do you think THAT evolved... ? ;)

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:07

mx6, msg 119 ... May I go back to the beginning of the Orams case and say that they bought their property (already built by a local TC, they DID NOT build it themselves, just finished it off) using all the 'diligence' available at the time.

It was 2 years before the Border was opened and they made all the enquiries that were possible. They were told by the lawyers that it was TC land and safe to buy. It was before the building boom and rush to purchase and the dodgy lawyers hadn't been exposed then.

Linda knew all about the Cy Prob long before '74 because she went to school near an RAF station and several of her friends came to Cyprus with their fathers in the early 60s to try and keep the peace.

The land had in fact passed through the hands of 3 TC families before they bought the house and they obtained their kocan without any difficulty.

It wasn't until after the Border opened and Apostolides turned up that they discovered he had owned the land before '74.



cont/

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:08

mark message 124:



see what you mean about positive results promoting the evolution of the IPC, fair comment



on the other hand though,

as for the use of innocuous and universally understood words like positive, progress and owners

we are in asia/middle east aren't we?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:15

Hi Birdsong,



1/ I am well aware of the defence the Orams' used at the RoC Court.. They claimed that they believed that the 'TRNC' was a country and used a local solicitor to 'buy'... I know many folk who really believed this and sadly for the Orams' they were the fall guys - they 'bought' on the wrong guys land... :(



2/ Kindly don't refer to 'border's in the light of what the Orams' would now know...



3/ IF Mrs Orams knew about the Cy Prob then I fear that she should have known better - that there was an element of 'risk' - that 'TRNC's' status was not internationally recognised.

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:17

You are correct in saying that if they hadn't attended the RoC court they would have lost by default. In the end they did anyway.

They followed the advice of their lawyer at the time to go to the court.



In answer to msg 117. The Orams' case lastest for 7 and a half years and at the end they were exhausted.



The law was changed almost entirely as a result of their case which has made everyone else a lot safer, which I think is support enough, don't you?



There is only so much any one person can do. Now they have moved on, they still love North Cyprus, but cannot use their house anymore and it is slowly falling into ruin. Apostolides can access the land if he wishes but I bet he's never been near it. His objective was cynical and political, and in the end the only ones to profit were the lawyers.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:21

Andre514



We ARE in the Levant, but Turkey and Cyprus are members of the Council of Europe and BOTH are bound to comply with ECHR decisions..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:35

re msg 128



>>The law was changed almost entirely as a result of their case which has made everyone else a lot safer, which I think is support enough, don't you? <<



The only reason there's unlikely to be another Orams' case is because of the ECHR ruling - re the IPC as a prescribed route.. NOTHING to do with the Orams'...



There's NOTHING to stop another Mr Apostolides taking someone to Court in the RoC.. there is now a defence in that the IPC exists.. IF a RoC Courts still ruled, THEN when trying to enforce, the defendant could argue this..



>>His ( Mr Apostoldies ) objective was cynical and political<<



I KEEP hearing this... and I ask those suggesting he got funding to demonstrate same... I don't think we are in a position to judge - esp. IF he spent his own money.. HE can't return his land to the condition he wishes it to be in - as he can hardly enforce the house' demolition..



The whole case encapsulates the current mess of the 'status quo' on the island :(

Birdsong


Joined: 14/05/2009
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:39

mx6....I am not going to continue arguing with you, I just wanted to make one or two points on behalf of the Orams.



Whatever anyone says on this forum you will never change your point of view. Because Mrs Orams knew of the Cyprus Prob they made extensive enquiries, but it was another world 9 years ago.



Also the TRNC is a country and does exist 'de facto' . Lord Denning recognised this. And de facto is the reality, like it or not.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:39

mark,



you last line and your own efforts in 1974

suggests you may be sympathetic to the idea of a compromise end to the cyprus question



...what do you think of the prospects now?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:41

(Cont)



For SURE the case highlighted the situation re the disputed nature of ownership of property in Cyprus.. Hopefully, a lasting soln - rather than the 'status quo' can be found.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:45

re msg 132



"My own efforts in 1974?"



I have oft said I watched the TR Paratroopers landing on TV and thinking. "GREAT... " serves the Greek / GC Coupists right.." .. I was a VERY naive 15 yrs old...



I didn't think of the repercussions for those innocent GCs who had fought against the attempt to overthrow the legit govt.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 12:49

Birdsong



re msg 131



>>I am not going to continue arguing with you<<



It's not an 'argument' when I respectfully correct your incorrect assertions re the legal realities. ( viz your contention that the Apostolides' case changed the law )



You talk of 'de facto' The Orams' learnt - to their immeasurable cost - that it was 'de jure' that mattered in Court.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 13:20

andre514 Thank you for your kind reply to my questions in Msg 120.



I understand the logic behind you believing that if Turkey retains control of the TRNC after a solution they will safeguard the interests of those who have purchased and constructed on 'exchange land'. Should that scenario exist in the future all well and good. I suspect in that case that the RoC will go to law in the Internation Courts for satisfaction and compel Turkey to adhere any orders made for compensation or restitution. What of post solution scenario if Turkey does not remain in control of the TRNC?



I see your point on how land and property with British and Turkish Title can have a defect by the way it has been advertised for sale, however, if the Title Deeds are original and dated pre '74 they are good solid title and there are ways that foriegners can be granted permission to purchase that type of title. In any event that......



Continued below.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 13:21

Continued from Msg 136



............ type of title will always remain the first and only choice for most. As for those Cypriot refugees who you suggest no longer have rights to their pre '74 properties time will tell. It would save a lot of heart ache for a lot of people here in the TRNC if you are correct in your belief but I have grave doubts personally. Time will tell I hope I am wrong.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 13:34

slatnumber7 just my 2 penneth worth.



Pre 74 dispossed owners certainly have rights and every international court ruling has confirmed this. However there is more and more 'weight' that says they do not have guranteed right of return of said property if that is what they want. Their rights may be 'honored' by exchange or compensation even if they only want return. That is pretty much what the ECHR is saying as I understand it. Where possible Turkey should offer return in order to honor their rights. Where return is not possible without depriving in turn another indivdual of their rights or placing undeu hardship on that other indivdual, then the ECHR has said exchange or compensation is a valid means for Turkey to honor the rights of the pre 74 owner.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 14:55

mark message 134



re: "...your own efforts in 1974" should have read "your own efforts in 2004"



oops!



strangely, it is the second time I have made such a slip-up perhaps there is

something freudian in making this same mistake twice

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
25/08/2011 15:25

slatnumber7:



by choosing a portentious term like "solution" hints, at least to me,

that an agreement is reasonably close or even possible



this is a popular, but dangerous misconception when disussing the

"cyprus issue", not for the likes of us ...but for claimants reading it



my view supported by circumstantial evidence is that by voting down

the 2004 un-mediated cyprus deal the greek cypriots loosed off a

round at the very far end of their leg to coin a phrase



the net result, combined with a political hardening on our side of the

fence, is no room for manoever in cobbling a re-unification



it is not so much whether "turkey retains control of the trnc" on which

I pass, but if the ROC can ever get back lands to reconstitute the

1960 power-sharing cyprus within the same constitutional envelope

...not a hope in hell



and erolz's posting reminds us that time and space are a continuum,

as time is lost gc schemes to retrieve lands become more untenable

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 00:24

So basically this is all scaremongering



Only one UK family had their UK assets attacked

and lost their home in Cyprus



and only one UK citizen extradited and imprisoned

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 01:54

Phil Bailey



the original article in question is not propaganda but is based on information handed over to Volkan Gazetesi from Greek Cypriot sources. European Arrest Warrants have been issued to certain estate agents and developers in the TRNC. Those who have been named have not come forward to defend themselves giving some credence to the allegations made...



It must also be mentioned that re-unification talks are at a critical juncture so any escalation of the highly emotive property quagmire would not be deemed appropriate in the current climate...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 02:13

Britishbuyer EAW were issued for certain estate agents and developers and lawyers by the ROC back in 2005. That is nothing new. What was new in the article was the alledged claim that EAW had recently been issued for indivduals that had 'merely' bought dispute title property in the North, like the Orams, along with a other individuals that have nothing to do with buying or using or developing disputed title property, Like Mr Kent. It is only the 'new' bits that are 'new' and all of those would seem to not be correct at all.



What we have, as far as I can see, is 'old' news, like the EAW issued in 2005 and old news about old non effective historic actions against entities like Turk Bank being bundled up with 'new' claims that just do not seem to be true or add up. New claims like NEW RECENT EAW have been issued in recent months to the likes of the Orams and Mr Kent and others, who are NOT developers or estate agents and claims of NEW current actions aaginst Turk Bank and others.

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 07:39

We have learned from extremely good sources in the ROC that no EAW has been issued for my Father. Not surprising given the facts ellucidated above.



So, begging the question, whence did the reports of such arise?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 08:47

Judging by some of the 'journalistic' stds in some Cyprus based newspapers, facts aren't a prerequisite....

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 10:24

just to remind everyone of the article..



http://your-story.org/european-arrest-warrants-issued-against-north-cyprus-property-developers-260649/

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 12:22

Lambousa Gordon as far as the english language version goes the 'source' of the article above would appear to be an alledged translation by the RoC PIO of a Volkan article. However I have not seen the original article in Turkish and remain cautious as to how accurate the PIO translation and report are. Let's face it the PIO are not exactly an 'indpendant' reporting body. Anyway the PIO 'translation / report' can be seen here.



http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/tcpr/2011/11-08-16.tcpr.html#08

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
26/08/2011 23:56

lets put this to bed moreaggitation by gc sympathiser

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 10:00

Dear Cyprusairsoft



re msg148



>>lets put this to bed moreaggitation by gc sympathiser<<



If the the 'rump' RoC PIO are simply repeating hearsay published in the 'TRNC' press I can't see they are 'wrong' ..



I'd LOVE to know why it was published by 'Volkan'.. without verification... seems that's quite common... :(

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 14:17

Apparently Cyprus Star say they have sought advice from "legal experts" in the UK. They say that an EU arrest warrant is unenforceable in the UK since the "offence" or "crime" is not a "framework list" type of offence. Other reasons are given in addition, to suggest such a warrant falls outside the Extradition Act of 2003!

More info. then buy the paper !

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 14:48

BritishBuyer....message 106 said "I have had contact with several newspaper editors in the north regarding this article and am currently being told not to mention any names. I am also getting this verified by an independent newspaper in the south. What I can say however, is that there has been new EAW's issued, but am not in a disposition to release the names on this forum at current. I will however, update full details as soon as I have license to do so".

Since these names have been published in TRNC papers, your silence since the post leads me to believe that you have been very neglectful of the truth. It seems to me that you are deliberately sowing uncertainty and apprehension for your own ends and which are intended to create a false impression in the minds of others.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 15:02

Msg 150,how did they get G Robb then ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 15:48

philbailey it is down to what charges the RoC brings as to if a EAW can be used. Charges of fraud do not require that the offence is illegal in the country where the EAW is being served. Charges just relating to illegal use of property in the North under RoC law would require than such was also illegal in any EU country the EAW was served in.

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 21:25

Geejay



The names have been printed. I just do not want to reiterate them.

TRNCvictim


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 1417

Message Posted:
27/08/2011 21:32

So we are all back to square one

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/08/2011 01:21

re 150, Geejay



not sure you can trust anything you read in certain 'newspapers'.. AS many members on here will testify - they clearly allow their 'reporters' to print any old guff - without checking for the truth, first...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
28/08/2011 15:47

britishbuyer msg 142:



..."the talks are at a highly critical juncture..."



who says?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
28/08/2011 16:40

re 157 andre514



Er, The UN ? ... Do keep up.. ;)

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
28/08/2011 19:12

So any confirmation yet ?

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
29/08/2011 01:06

Phil



not yet , everything is closed until the end of Ramadan

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
29/08/2011 02:11

message 158:



so this was indeed a recent quote from the un:



but do you believe it though?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
29/08/2011 06:31

"the talks are at a highly critical juncture"

They have been from the start and just like a patient in critical condition, they are not likely to end well.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
29/08/2011 10:19

the real problem with these talks is the two leaders are hidebound by previous events



event one: the collapse of power-sharing in 1963, never mind whose "fault" it was

event two: the rejection by greek cypriots in 2004 of an unsatisfactory but real compromise

event three: hardening of attitudes and voting patterns on the cypriot/turkish side



so what of all the talk of "if" the negociations fail...etc etc etc? ie that they may "succeed"

a crude attempt to nobble house sales by some and swallowing this drivel by others



critical juncture? .............perhaps the un did say that, but then they would wouldn't they?

unless they really meant critical as in "the patient is critical"!

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
29/08/2011 13:09

"to nobble house sales"

I think that is already done

see the "stop the blackmail " thread

and numerous other threads

BritishBuyer


Joined: 10/10/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
02/09/2011 01:25

I'm unable to get confirmation as to the names of the people and companied who have been allegedly issued with EAW's. Can anyone on this forum shed any new light on this issue...?

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
04/09/2011 03:20

There must be a web-site somewhere

that names people

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
04/09/2011 06:30

There is... wait for it, it's called Cyprus44!

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 02:55

any more news ?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
07/09/2011 06:11

There never was any 'news'! A total load of codswallop given the 'names' I'm surprised anyone was taken-in by this propaganda non-event.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
08/09/2011 23:32

Is mr Robb home yet?