A Turkish Cypriot writes

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:04

ON THE VERGE OF EXTINCTION



You are a Turkish Cypriot. You live in the north of a divided island in which Turkish soldiers are posted along the divide. You are probably a civil servant. Or a worker. Or you are retired. You are the citizen of a make-believe state which is not recognised by the world. Wherever you travel, you have at least two passports in your pocket. You are also unsure as to how you define your identity. Turkish Cypriot? Turk of Cyprus? Or simply Turk? You are bound by the laws of a make-believe state. You pay your electricity bills, telephone dues, taxes, water money and vehicle licence fees all to this make-believe state. You call your leader – whom nobody in the world addresses as president - “Esteemed president”. You do not have your own money. You use the Turkish lira. You once grew olives. Now you eat imported olives. You had shoemakers. They have closed. You had joiners. They have closed. Your tailors have also closed. Your helva maker of a century’s

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:05

standing has even locked his door. But you have an abundance of brothels, casinos and non-existent five-star hotels. You get along by selling land plundered from Greek Cypriots and from a variety of rackets conducted in the shade of the bayonet. Even though yours is a citrus land, your very lemons come from Argentina. The imported population has long since outnumbered yours. You do not even encounter one another in the streets any more. You are drowning in a criminal swamp; you sleep with a revolver or a knife under your pillow. All of you live in fear of being burgled at any time. If you should contract a mortal illness you immediately rush to the hospitals and doctors in the south. To avoid being swindled in the north, you shop in the south. You trust neither doctors, nor lawyers, judges, policemen nor politicians in this make-believe state. You may not yet have noticed but you are on the verge of extinction. Those at the top pass on the good news that, “If there is no solution,

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:06

there will be partition.” They say, “Since the Greek Cypriots greatly fear partition they will have to accept our conditions.” In fact, it is you who really needs to fear partition. If there is partition, the Greek Cypriots will at least own half of Cyprus and will govern themselves as an independent nation. And you? You will continue to eke out an existence here under Turkey’s rule with a so-called parliament and government. You will at no time be the master under your own roof. Here-today-gone-tomorrow officers and ambassadors will rule you. More of you will disappear. Those of you that remain will get up and depart. The population that has taken over the area within the walls will also conquer the area outside the walls. Flags will be planted where the hills have been hollowed out and mosques built where citrus orchards have dried out. Those of you who are too long in the tooth to leave will meet in a few coffee shops frequented only by Cypriots and recall the days of old. Their

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:07

grandchildren who come from abroad to visit them, unless a customs officer from Hatay creates problems, will negotiate their way through immigration before embracing them and kissing their hands. Those who do not carry a Republic of Turkey passport in their pockets will be denied entry here.

******

If I told you, “There is still time; come and let us rid ourselves of all of these curses” you would not join me. What else can I say?



By Sener Levent, Editor, Afrika newspaper



http://trncvillaowners.phpbb3now.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4993&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:16

Pike



Interesting?



Although It sounds as if the Author forgot to take his prozac when putting pen to paper!!



Yes NC has its problems then again so does everywhere else...Paradise is full,unfortunately :-(

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:24

Pike



This article is rubbish by your own exacting standards as the author, who may not even have a university degree, does not state the sample size...



You can't have it both ways....

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:24

There is one overiding thing that struck me when I visited in October. It is clear that the local economy is geared to catering for the Turkish Army. If there is an agreement and the army "goes home" has anyone considered the effect on the local economy in NC?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:38

Lincsman

'local economy geared to catering for the Turkish Army.'

Whilst they occupy a lot of the first rate sites in NC I have thought that the army keeps a low profile and probably services itself. What do you base your opinion on re the effect of pulling out on the local economy? I think you may be right but not sure why.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:40

how on earth did you come to that conclusion?



The local economy is geared to the 40% contribution to the overall economy made by the immigrant, mostly ex-pat, population...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:46

Groucho Msg 6



Nice try, but the piece is not an academic paper but a column written by a native Turkish Cypriot, which no doubt annoys you. You may find it even more annoying to follow the link and see the other Turkish Cypriots who agree with him.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:47

hector: "...the army keeps a low profile and probably services itself..."



Some of that does go on in private, but it's not encouraged.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 19:49

Groucho: "The local economy is geared to the 40% contribution to the overall economy made by the immigrant, mostly ex-pat, population..."



Can you back that claim up with evidence?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:09

Pike "Nice try, but the piece is not an academic paper but a column written by a native Turkish Cypriot, which no doubt annoys you. You may find it even more annoying to follow the link and see the other Turkish Cypriots who agree with him."



Why should it annoy me? I know there are differences of opinion



The 40% came from the government's own figures as quoted in an article in a Turkish Cypriot paper... which will probably annoy you...



The evidence of my own eyes, remember, I live here and you don't and I have hardly ever seen many members of the Army partaking of restaurant food or buying anything from the local stores... I'm sure there are a few but certainly very few..



One does see groups of soldiers in mufti wandering around the town and down by the harbour but they are invariably only smoking and are to be not found in the eateries or shops other than tobacconists, mobile phone shops and ones selling suitcases for which they appear to have an insatiable appetite....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:33

Groucho: "The evidence of my own eyes, remember, I live here and you don't and I have hardly ever seen many members of the Army partaking of restaurant food or buying anything from the local stores... I'm sure there are a few but certainly very few.."



Your eyes perhaps need attention. I wonder if you really do live in Cyprus if you say that. You obviously don't go to many shops and supermarkets then, especially anywhere near TR/TC forces married quarters. If you did you couldn't fail to see many uniformed and civvy-clothed servicemen buying the family groceries and contributing to the economy.



I won't needlessly humiliate you by pointing out that your quoting TRNC government figues is almost like saying you believe them.



Hope this deosn't imply a lack of intelligence on anyone's part, as some people don't like that. ;-)

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:44

Article By Sener Levent, Editor, Afrika newspaper read this with great interest could this Journalist be writing about the present day situation in America or the UK ?

LOL

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:50

Pike



My eyes are fine... yours on the other hand are obviously closed...



I do live here and have done so full-time for years... We go into many shops of the shops around the army bases and the vast majority of customers are non-service personnel... I'm not stupid enough to imagine that none of them do and I was not making that claim...



Does anyone else remember seeing large numbers of Turkish Army men in the shops? So many that they out-number the local population and ex-pats.. because that's the implication of Lincman's post...



Pike, I'm glad to note that you think the Turkish Servicemen are forward thinking enough to do their own shopping and not rely on their womenfolk to do all the "ladies' work"...



The Government were answering an awkward question posed to them about the effect of ex-pats leaving the economy... As we don't vote I was surprised they were prepared to state the amount and likely effect...



There you go trying to claim a Pyrrhic victory again.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:54

ronaldo,



No, it happened in the good old TRNC. As did this:



New York, March 31, 2005—The European Court for Human Rights ruled today that Turkish authorities did not conduct an effective investigation into the July 1996 murder of journalist Kutlu Adali in Cyprus and ordered the government to pay 20,000 euros (US $26,000) in damages to his wife.



Ilkay Adali sought damages in 1997 from the Turkish government, which maintains effective control over the renegade Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (TRNC). She claimed that Turkish or TRNC authorities ordered the killing, but the court said there was not enough evidence to conclude that security agents were involved in the murder.





Adali, a political columnist with the leftist daily Yeni Duzen who opposed the division of Cyprus, was shot to death outside his home in the island's divided capital of Nicosia on July 6, 1996. He had received work-related threats prior to his murder.



http://cpj.org/2005/03/european-court-faults-i

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 20:57

Groucho,



Do you believe figures issued by the TRNC government in connection with expats, given you are subject to racial descrimination and treated officially as third-class citizens? I wasn't prepared to bring my children up in a place like that.

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:01

Turkish army personel hardly shop from civilian stores.

They buy everything from stores operated by the army who import their own groceries from Turkey and buy the rest of their needs from the importers at zero tax.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:07

Thanks for clearing that up Iceman, I thought I wasn't seeing things...

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:22

Groucho



I too recollect reading about the 40% contribution made to the local economy by the ex pats....So you were not dreaming!!!!! Whether the government figures are accurate or not.. well thats another story!!!

sassycypgirl


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:34

The only times that I have seen army personell shopping is in the yapi

markets. I have lived here for some time now and shop in the local shops

and I have never seen any soldiers in there.



As Iceman says they have their own store to shop in that stocks everything

they need why should they shop locally?



Locals can also use the army store.



Sassy

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:39

Suzanne,



so frustrating for you.... to quote Pike "rofl"

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:43

Euro news quoted 40% of TRNC income is generated by Ex pats

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:44

turkish soilders have then own designated shops ,normally close to barracks



suzanne

odd recently you said on this board that you don,t go to the north,have you had a change of heart .

the army is quite frustrating for the general public ...have you done your own survey then.

sassycygirl

you are quite right locals do use the army stores .



musin

long live the kktc

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:46

ilovecyprus,



Quite.



wyn

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:47

suzanne

re msg 22

The soldiers you saw in Nicosia wondering were probably on daily leave.

They hardly contribute to the economy because,unless they come from a wealthy family they dont have much money in their pocket to spend.

They are only allowed to go into designated shops or public places.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:48

RE msg 10, Pike : (...) but the piece is not an academic paper but a column written by a native Turkish Cypriot (...)



===> Tell me Pike. Am I wrong to understand that the author is a well known TC journalist with probably communist sympathies (while working for the news paper called "Afrika" - which used to be "Europa" - which has its sympathies on the far left not to call it communist also)?



All the (your?) "comrads" are very active at the moment, I happen to notice. Talat, "the well known TC journalist", Christofias...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 21:56

The Highly credible report pubilshed by the Centre for European Policy Studies in Brussels stated in it's summary,that generally TC's distrust GC's, the EU and the International community.



This feeling was highlighted yesterday by Presidential Spokesperson Hasan Ercakica who criticized the Greek Cypriot side for continuing its initiatives aimed at maintaining the international isolation of Turkish Cypriots over the tourism field while it keeps up with the negotiations process.



The recent example to this has been the Italian tour operator sending tourists to North Cyprus, who was warned by the Greek Cypriot Embassy in Rome as if he was committing a crime, Ercakica added.



Of course, there are many TC and GC friendships, but it is wrong to infer that the majority of TC's blame Turkey for their misfortune.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:00

I was in Nicosia a couple of weeks ago and didn,t see any soldiers, if I had I don,t suppose it would have bothered me anyway, why should it ?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:10

Suzanne "as well as us locals! not a pretty site on a sunkist island"



sorry to hear you're not...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:12

ilc: "...by Presidential Spokesperson Hasan Ercakica who criticized the Greek Cypriot side..."



Genial as this chap is, he was still the mouthpiece of Denktas and spin doctors rarely change their spots. The blighter once tried to make me get permission from the authorities before speaking to GCs living in the north! I ask you! Which hack worth their salt will listen to that?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:18

OK then, on a show of hands I think that the decision is, that the local economy is not geared to the Turkish army after all....

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:21

I've not seen much that convinces me that any hack is worth their salt....

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:35

Suzanne

wise words i hope they come true .They Have in Ireland

Ronaldo

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:37

Suzanne



"Well after the island is reunified the whole island will be fruitful & there will be only one economy to worry about."



Do you think this will happen before Christmas???

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:38

ilc

as more and more people learn the truth about the plight of turkish cypriots and continue to do so ,you will see more and more greek propaganda emerging ,however i am not condemning all greek cypriots ,more often than not it comes from non cypriots.



musin

long live the kktc

BillyB


Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 22:43

Must admit I dont think ive ever seen Turkish army soldiers in lemar,they did have Action Man in there last week though. Next to the Barbie dolls, that Ken was a bit of a wimp anyway.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
13/11/2008 23:27

So its alright to book my hols for next summer then.



Lawks a mercy. (Sorry, minced oath)



Lem

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 12:50

Groucho: "I've not seen much that convinces me that any hack is worth their salt...."



Sure you didn't always wish you'd been one? Bit more interesting than computers, surely? You even named your handle after a certain club.

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 13:15

Do you know what PtePike it makes me quite happy to think you have nothing better to do than sit all day and wind people up! But it makes me even happier that i spend most my days selling exchanged and TMD have made loads of money doing it.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 13:19

We live, where we live, by choice.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 13:40

Nice one, Stewart. And for some, with conscience and morals.

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 13:47

Its ok i think your grans old land is going cheap. For you ptepike im open to offers, how is that for having a conscience.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 14:04

Over the years, in the South, we have had nights out ruined by soldiers from 'our' Sovereign Bases causing fights, rolling around drunk and causing mayhem.

There have also been some high profile cases of violence, rape, and I seem to remember murder, by British or 'Peacekeeping' forces personnel over the years.





Anyone experienced such problems from the Turkish Forces in the North?



I haven't.



ROB

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 14:18

Not really

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:03

suzanne



Sorry to dissapoint you,... but no!



Still very proud of Blighty, watched the Lord Mayors Parade, then Remembrance Services.



Off to Rugby at Twickenham tomorrow, never any problems there.



Are you feeling sick for being British?



ROB

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:24

And what part of Britain are you from Suzanne??

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:24

suzanne



"maybe your cup of tea"???



I think youll find i was criticising them, not saying they were my cup of tea.



Good try though at avoiding my question!



Have you seen any problems from Turkish troops in the North?



ROB

Lincsman



Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 117

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:29

Sorry if my impressions were wrong about the Turkish Army and the local economy. When we walk about and see lots of young men wandering about in Girne we assumed they were army and they therefore spent lots of money in the local shops.



P.s we were in Chicken Run and some TR army guys turned up in the company car to get a takeway.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:38

Rob 49,



Crimes committed by Turkish forces personnel are tried in military courts back in Turkey, which is why you never hear of anything in Cyprus. Anything that ever got out it would be covered up easily, as there is no free press in the north of Cyprus. You could be a cheerleader for the occupation forces, or a pin-up maybe.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:56

Pike



Pull the other one!



With all the ex-pats in the North posting on this or other free forums, the slightest misdemeanor by any Turkish squaddie would have been broadcast with whistles and bells!









"You Stupid Boy Pike"!

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 15:59

I really don't think that the Turkish soldiers cause any more trouble then anyone else frankly and probably very little. So what if they do get into trouble that they are dealt with by military courts? Exactly what the British army does.

As for a cover up, what rubbish. Word would spread like gossip does in NC (not that I'm one to gossip of course )

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 16:22

I could have sworn I,d read a posting where Suzanne said," we must move forward", but only when it suits it seems. How are things ever going to be sorted when there is this constant tit for tat as to which side were the worst

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 16:27

Thank you Suzanne and where do you live now???? Just curious that is all and i am gonna bet its not Lapta

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 16:28

Yes, Rob,



What about the brave members of the Turkish Cypriot security forces who beat a helpless man to death on the ground and shot another one for climbing a flag pole. Did they ever face justice?

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 16:33

Re Message 63,

yes I,d noticed.

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 16:43

I am nosy,i just dont understand why GC want to post on this Forum. It isnt going to change anything. People bought over in the North because they prefer it. If they preferred Spain then they would of bought there. I personally and i am sure i am not the only one have absolutly no problems with Greeks or Greek Cypriots.



I am genuinally very interested in your motives.

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 16:54

Pike



"What about the brave members of the Turkish Cypriot security forces who beat a helpless man to death on the ground and shot another one for climbing a flag pole. Did they ever face justice?"



How do we know?? According to you they would have been secretly whisked off to Turkey to face proceedings without anyone knowing anything about it.





ROB

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 19:53

North cyprus, Trnc, Cyprus, What ever you's want to call it, its peaceful, has excellent weather, great food etc...lets stop bitching and enjoy.



jay 76

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 20:09

Pike,



I was called Groucho long before the Groucho Club came into existence.. I left school in 1973 with the moniker Groucho... the club opened in the eighties I believe. Must sue some time if I can be arsed....



Given my real name it's not a quantum leap for someone with imagination to come up with... but then I was probably expecting too much...



As for wanting to be a hack... I'm pissing myself.... but only from laughing. Not got to that stage yet... how you doing?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 20:13

suzanne,



Are you vegitarian? Just wondered when you announced your evening meal menu?



Back to the Marks and Spencer... Angus Beaf, Ruby Port, and crumbled Stilton. Pie.



I just dont know how people can resist it. Maybe its my age??????????



wyn

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 22:57

suzanne,



Just enjoy the moment!



wyn

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 23:07

Are you trying to drivel us to death?

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 23:09

may I suggest a more apt title for this thread?



how's about:



"A Merchant Banker Writes"



andre

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
14/11/2008 23:41

Well pies are lovely but even the most out-of-whack brain would have difficulty in proving a link between M&S pies and an article in the Afrika newspaper about the subject of Turkish Cypriots being ill-served by their continued links with Turkey...



Or do you see some evidence that this is not so and pies are what it's all about?



If it's true, I'll bet it's those bloody chicken curry pies.. I've always had my suspicions about them...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 00:04

Suzanne,



msg 72 was in direct answer to the post 44 by Pike... otherwise I would not have offered the information...



Still don't know how Wyn got pies into the thread....



Maybe he thinks we're uppercrust!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 00:13

I prefer short... for pies.



But long for threads...

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 00:53

I have followed the various postings on this site with interest. The fact of the matter is that there are differing views. Pvt Pike seems to follow a viewpoint blameless of GC actions but castigating fully any TC or Turkish actions in the history of Cyprus. Equally, it has to be said that those on the "other side" respond with vigorous replies. The question I would ask is, if, as PP expounds, why does he reside in this pariah of a state? Surely his sensibilities would prevent this. I bought my property knowing that there were potential issues regarding title, but with the fallback that IF it had been owned by a GC he would only be entitled to compensation on the basis of the land's unimproved value. Equally, and of more importance would be that if GCs were to be recompensed for their land in NC, there would have to be a commensurate compensation for TCs land "lost" in ROC. This issue seems to be repeatedly ignored by PP and his acolytes.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 00:57

Arthur, you ask questions that will probably not be answered but the word Hypocrissy stands out to me ?

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 01:09

Following on from the above, I don't support the vitriol that PP takes, but he does seem to get off on responses from Wynyardman et al. What I would really like to see is:

A) balance from PP, Suzanne et al

b) balance from Wynyardman and others proposing the TC cause

This site has been tainted by the reciprocal insults of those following the GC or TC viewpoint, perhaps exacerbated by PPs supposedly intellectual and expert viewpoint. Sadly I think PP needs to acknowledge that there are two viewpoints to any arguement. I freely admit that I don't know all the facts, but I find it difficult to believe that Turkey would have intervened in 1974 without SOME justification, given that GCs form the vast majority of the population of Cyprus.

Can we now have some informed, balanced and insult free debate that informs and benefits all.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 01:17

Good post Arthur, makes alot of sense.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 01:35

Arthur,



If you look back a few weeks there was balanced debate. Suddenly every posting was rubbished.



On 25/10 I started a thread that begged all including the moderators to stop all personal remarks and insults. ( Scroll down to the bottom of the page and go to Page15 Cyprus 44)

Time after time I begged for the subject to be debated and not the person.



The site became unruly with many posters making personal remarks. It was forecast that would happen and my pleadings were ignored.



Following intervention by the moderators 2 days ago order was restored.



I have always debated in favour Peace ,Reconcilliation, Understanding, and end to the emnity that exists between GCs and TCs. I see no other way forward. I accept that both sides are badly aggrieved, and with good cause. Both sides now have an opportunity to move forward. The past is just that.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 01:39

I strongly resented being called a thief and of low moral standing just because I bought a villa

built on exchange land. It was bought in good faith, and I paid a very full price.



My view. I have repeated it because I believe that you are new to the board.



I accept the views of others, who see matters differently.



Wyn.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 02:28

Proudhon said, "Property is Theft".



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_is_Property%3F



So there you are, the accused stand as guilty as charged, me lud.



Take them down. Take them down



Lem

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 09:23

msg 86 & 88 sums it all up.



dig a trench Arthur as you may well need it !



A lovely day to one and all......(except two personas)

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 10:35

Nope....just agreeing with Arthur



Maybe you have had to much to drink....it has that effect!



Im at work.

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 10:37

Message 88



quoted:"Can we now have some informed, balanced and insult free debate that informs and benefits all"



If you read the CYPRUS "Treaty of Guarantee" signed by all five sides in 1960,you can see the rights granted to guarantors..



http://teaching.law.cornell.edu/faculty/drwcasebook/docs/cyprus-treaty_of_guarantee.pdf

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 12:20

Iceman- thanks for the link

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 13:19

Aurthur this was the reason for the PEACE OPERATION carried out on the Island of Cyprus .Among the many peculiarities of the Cyprus conflict is Nicos Sampson, the EOKA gunman who schemed with the Greek colonels to overthrow Makarios and become the coup leader in July 1974. He was a kind of bizarre figure who nonetheless had his admirers in Greek Cyprus right up to his death in May 2001. Perhaps more than anyone apart from Grivas, he symbolized the terrorist struggle for enosis. P.S He did overthrow Makarios .

Ron(aldo)

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 14:50

Ron(aldo)

In message 88 Arthur asked about justification reasons for Turkish intervention..

The link i provided clearly states the powers given to Turkey by the Treaty of Guarantee and her obligations as a guarantor country.

I advise you to read it also!!

It might give you an idea why the whole world thinks different as opposed to Turkish point of view when it comes to present day Cyprus problem.

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 15:53

Iceman Fully understand what you are saying ! I am well aware of what the guarantee powers should have been doing ! First and foremost they should have stopped the Greek coup and the slaughter of innocent people. There could not be any justification in what the GREEKS did ! But Britain stood back and watched It happen. Well done Harold Wilson and James Callaghan.

Ron(aldo)

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 19:02

Ron(aldo)

I dont think you understand what i am saying...Coming to Cyprus in 1974 after the coup was within Turkeys rights,but her obligation was to re establish the territorial integrity and the security of the republic according to the constitution,then leave.Not to divide the island into two and set up an independent republic on the half she controlled..

It is for this reason,all the UN resolutions since then have been against the Turkish side.

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 19:29

I do understand what our saying doesnt mean i have to agree with You! Maybe the mistake she made was dividing the island . maybe it would have been better if she had taken all of it. as the Greek coup tried to.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
15/11/2008 22:31

Iceman, The only problem is... how long do you think the re-established territorial integrity would have lasted? Also how long do you think before the violence would have kicked off again?



Whilst I'm all in favour of a united Island and would not presume to lecture either side on the possiblities and practicalities of doing so, I still hold the opinion that given the same situation again (i.e. a recurrence of inter-communal violence) I would expect Turkey to act in almost exactly the same way again but hopefully this time with the backing of the UN and UK who quite shamefully failed to act the last time... much to their discredit...

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 09:11

Well said Groucho.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 10:43

Suzanne



Yes the past has gone and I sure as hell hope it's not coming back! Your last sentence is hopeful but given what has gone before I have to say the proof of the pudding will be in the eating... There was not much evidence of it before.. in fact quite the opposite...



"expat community who have bought gc land & who don`t want a reunified island for obvious reasons then they would more than likely start to stir up trouble & cause conflict between the two people"



Now it's the fault of the ex-pats? I don't think so.... If you think the ex-pats would stir up a conflict you must know a very different set of people to the ones we know... but then you live in the south... so I guess you do.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 11:19

"once turkey move out of Cyprus & give the island back to the Cypriots peace will prevail as this is what all Cypriots want"



I see you are still spouting your one sided rubbish as usual. How is your hangover?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 12:15

Suzanne,



Do you honestly believe there would have been none had the Turkish Army not kept them apart...



As for there being no violence elsewhere in the world where the TCs and GCs live cheek by jowl... well they don't think each other community is trying to do them out of their rights there do they.... so it's not quite the same.. If violence did kick off it would not be condoned by the politics of the country they are in as it is here... the rule of law would soon deal with the matter rather than egging them on...



Plus they go to schools where the teaching of history is not as controlled as it is on the island so possibly they have a better perspective given some distance and some other views....



It's all very well having a lovey-dovey view of the future but an air of realism needs to prevail otherwise it's going to be a disaster... again.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 12:16

Suzzy, I did indeed enjoy the moment on Friday night....had a lager frenzy.



your real meaning is for the Turkish army to move out and give it back to the Cypriots....more like the GC's.



I truly hope the Island is united and one day the Turkish protectors can leave the Island knowing the minority have a real share in running the country and nothing to fear.



Have a nice day.

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 14:06

Groucho



The facts still remain. Turkey were allowed to intervene as a guarantor and as part of that treaty they were to re-establish the treaty of the ROC. Some 34 years later they have not yet done this.



Even Iceman, as a Turkish Cypriot refugee from Limassol, acknowledges this.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 14:16

Stubs,



I agree that's what should have been able to happen... But do you seriously think that following the 1974 intervention no frantic diplomatic exchanges took place?



Do you think that T/Cs and Turkey were given guarantees that if they did withdraw then the other Guarantors would comply with the spirit of the original Guarantee and all would be well?



I'd love to have been a fly on the wall but I'm pretty sure they were told "no guarantees just get out! - Everything will be alright"



Er, trust me I'm a terrorist.... I don't think so...



Hardly going to fill you with confidence that leaving is the right thing to do..

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 15:19

Groucho

Are you a Cypriot?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 15:27

Iceman,



Why do you ask?

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 15:36

Just wondering where you get your knowledge of Cyprus history/politics.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 16:19

Well the answer to your question is... no I'm not a Cypriot or Turkish just in case you are wondering.



As for where my understanding comes from... well some of it comes from people like yourself, some from reading, some from the Internet and some from discussions on various bulletin boards... So quite a wide variety of sources.



As you may remember from the Villa Owners board one of my mother's (nee Alison-Baker) ancestors was a Lt. General in the Imperial Ottoman Army. Valentine Baker Pasha. His brother Sir Samuel White Baker, M.A., F.R.S., F.R.S.A., F.R.G.S wrote the work Cyprus As I Saw It In 1879 so I was brought up with an interest in things Cypriot and Turkish.



I am not claiming that this bestows on myself any understanding of former or current events beyond the norm only that it was always a matter of familial interest.



I wish the island all the best but don't pretend that it's just of case of everyone other than Cypriots keeping quiet and all will be well...

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 19:27

Suzanne

Why should i go and live in turkey or greece as i dislike all thats European.

were do you get this from? Seems to me that you cant stand knowing the truth!

I dont dislike Anyone . And i am quite happy living here were i am With hardly any crime good neighbours friendly people good food sunshine what more does a man need?. give the tcs a chance to make up there own minds & be able to look to a better future from what they have now! this last statement says it all really . That the lovely T/C people have been denied there humanrights far to long as you admit !

ronaldo

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 22:12

Which ones that then?

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
16/11/2008 23:09

suzzane ! thanks for confirming that the TCs have had there rights denied

ronaldo

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 03:49

What a fantastic development for a thread. So significant to see certain expats being put right by Cypriots over the history of the island - and still not getting it!



Groucho, the teased-out, Boris Johnson-style Ottoman connection was interesting to discover, but somewhat sullied in the circumstances as well as bearing fatal compromisation in the credibility stakes. The flavour of foreign imperial-colonial connections is something Turkish and Greek Cypriots have never been too keen on.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 15:07

PtePike



"So significant to see certain expats being put right by Cypriots over the history of the island"



So you do ONLY class the Greeks as cypriot ? As they are the ones trying to put the expats right as you call it.



How many Turkish cypriots have you come across who are putting expats right?

Please point them out so we all know.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:07

Pike



"Groucho, the teased-out, Boris Johnson-style Ottoman connection was interesting to discover, but somewhat sullied in the circumstances as well as bearing fatal compromisation in the credibility stakes."



Please explain as I don't understand how it was somewhat sullied in the circumstances...



As it is, it is a matter of fact... as it is, I think Iceman already knew these things as they had been a matter of some discussion in another place. However, I did not wish to sound coy on this board as he'd asked a specific question and others might think I had something to hide if I did not make my position clear...



I think you'll find that given what happened under the ROC many Turkish Cypriots may well regret the passing of British influence... It's a thought - I wonder if given a choice they'd have preferred, given the benefit of hindsight, to have stayed under British rather than Greek rule..



Any TCs like comment?

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 16:38

Groucho



re msg 114.



Why would Turkish Cypriots withdraw from their own island?



If you look back via news archives you will see that Turkish Cypriots had worldwide symptathy leading up to the first intervention. It was the second intervention, after the Greek inspired Jaunta had fallen, which brought about condemnation.



Even now some 34 years later people are being denied access to their property as the Turkish military have decided to keep it fenced off in Varosha/Maras. Why would a force who came to install peace, under the terms of a treaty decide to stay and still be in Cyprus 34 years later and still be denying all Cypriots and foreign land owners access to what is rightfully theirs?



Re-establishment of the constitution of the ROC was permitted as a guarantor something which Turkey have not done and have showed no intentions of doing. Why did Turkey allow so many mainlanders to re-locate to Cyprus and in many cases provide land and houses which belonged to GC's?

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 17:25

Why cant we leave things the way they are just now everything is so nice and peacefull

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 17:51

Biker: "How many Turkish cypriots have you come across who are putting expats right? Please point them out so we all know."



Pay proper attention to the thread, say between 101 and 117, and you may just find one of many TCs who have for the most part stuck it out in Cyprus and speak with more authority than certain more distant ones. And of course the brave TC whose article I posted is another example of someone not afraid of speaking the truth. ;-)

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 20:32

Karakum



What I have found in my experience of living in Northern Cyprus is that it is usually persons who make a statement similiar to yours who have bought land which the courts have stated ( Justice Jack in the Orams Case) still belongs to the GC owner by law.



There are many people in Northern Cyprus that would be happy for the status quo to continue as they know morally and legally they have bought land which belongs to someone else why is it that people crossing the green line are "advised" not to have any documentation which relates to property?

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 20:40

Msg 126 How many mainland Greeks live in the south of the Island?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 20:50

Pike,



One.... One person got their views into the paper... that's a big sample. He holds these views but it would appear there are as many differing views as there are people...



Stubs,



They are advised not to carry papers relating to property purchase across because they will be victimised by GC border guards if they do... As evidenced by the fact that some were arrested for simply having house plans and nothing relating to an actual plot of land... but as the GCs seem to regard the whole of the island including Pike's property as theft from GCs it's not that surprising...

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 20:50

stubs



the kktc is turkish and turkish it will stay.

whatever the outcome if any in the talks ,the kktc will still be turkish .

they think its all over it is now.



musin

long live the kktc

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 22:01

Groucho



It is not victimisation but suspicion that that people have bought or building on land which still legally belongs to a Greek Cypriot. Given the fact that much of the land in the north prior to 1974 was lived on by Greek Cypriots can you blame them?



So Groucho, in your opinion, why do the peace keepers not let the rightful owners back into Varosha/Maras after 34 years?

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 22:05

Musin re msg 133



Partly you are right in what you say, the kktc is Turkish.



That is the one of the main points that Sener Levent was making.



And there i was thinking that Cyprus should belong to Cypriots.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 23:07

stubs

cyprus does belong to the cypriots ,whats your point ,hang on let me see

you are referring to mainland turks ,ex pats ,eastern europeans ,and everyone else that resides in the kktc .does britain not belong to the british ,last time i looked it wasn,t just english people here,same as america ,canada,australia,turkey ,greece, the whole world .

i,m sorry the cyprus belongs to cypriots does not hold water for me and i am a cypriot .

lets not forget also had it not been for turkey there would only be one cypriot

a greek cypriot.



musin

long live the kktc

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 23:17

Musin,



What you just said reminds me of people not wanting their kids to stop believing in Father Christmas, but knowing that one day they will be old enough to distinguish between fantasy and reality. Most of them, that is...

daveb


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
18/11/2008 23:48

stups\ pikeyy

if cyprus is for cpyriots you two f,,k off then and leave the cpyriots alone

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 00:16

Every country in the world is ethnically multi cultural Cyprus can not be any different. We can not carry out ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands of people because they were not present prior to 1974.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 03:00

daveb: "stups\ pikeyy if cyprus is for cpyriots you two f,,k off then and leave the cpyriots alone."



Only if you promise to complete primary six level education followed by undertaking citizenship classes.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 07:38

Pike,



you are so interested in the education of everybody who does not agree with you... have you got an obsession about it?



Does your superior education give you some hidden understanding of matters Cypriot? It doesn't appear so... you always get the discussion back to property whereas the chap whose article you quoted was more swayed by the pervading outside influence of countries who he thinks ought not to be involved...



I would be more inclined to side with him if he was also firmly and vociferously against Greece being involved in how this had all come about and their continuing influence against the Turkish Cypriots within the wider community.. certainly a power the GCs on their own did not wield before EU membership.



Even you can't think he thinks the wellbeing of the TCs would be better under the GCs and Greece..... surely!



Maybe he's just trying to get out of doing his military service? ;¬)

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 11:31

Musin re msg 136



Is it possible that many Cypriots like you suffer from an identity crisis? One minute you say the KKTC is Turkish, the next you say Cyprus belongs to Cypriots then futher in the same paragraph you say "sorry the cyprus belongs to cypriots does not hold water for me and i am a cypriot."



Which is it?



Is the KKTC Turkish? Do you want to be known as a Cypriot or a Turk?



As a Cypriot you should the demographics of your island. There is not just Turkish Cypriots or Greek Cypriots but also Maronites.

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 11:36

Groucho



no answer to my questions i left on msg 134?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 12:53

Groucho Pasha,



So you feel no reason to criticise the educational standards of someone who tells other members to "f*** off"? Was yours a certificate or diploma?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 13:27

Stubs

"It is not victimisation but suspicion that that people have bought or building on land which still legally belongs to a Greek Cypriot. Given the fact that much of the land in the north prior to 1974 was lived on by Greek Cypriots can you blame them?"



So suspicion is just enough for you? You need to get banged up for nothing and see what it feels like... just in case you are wondering I've never been but I have interviewed many who were....



"So Groucho, in your opinion, why do the peace keepers not let the rightful owners back into Varosha/Maras after 34 years? "



As far as I'm concerned they could have it tomorrow... it's not very nice anyway ;¬)



Seriously you'd need to ask those holding on to it because I have no idea why they are.... other than probably some people died fighting for it and they don't see giving it back as the right thing to do... ask them, not me.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 13:33

Well Pike, I think it's a bit rude that's all...



I use the odd expletive and I don't expect to be questioned over my education every time I do....



I seem to remember swearing was the order of the day my school when one reached a certain age... but I don't suppose they did at your girl's school ;¬)



I see you've done your homework..... now back to the dorm with you.

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:19

Groucho



People get arrested under caution frequently if they are suspected of breaking the law. If someone has bought property, which by law does not belong to them, then they have broken the law. The offence can carry up to 2 years in prison in the ROC so is treated as being serious enough to hold someone in a cell.



I was asking your opinion Groucho. These lands are held by people whom you defend as coming to this island 34 years ago as "peacekeepers". People did not die only just fighting for Varosha/Maras so that would be no excuse not to give it back to its rightful owners.



Groucho if you look around you there are so many examples of Turkification of the north. It is common knowledge and widely accepted that Turkey is in control in the north. During the negotiations do you think Talat can make do what he wants withouth Turkey having the final say? Don't think he can.

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:24

re msg 147



I agree with what Pikey has said regards the post of daveb. We can all make typos but to spell "cypriots" wrong twice in one sentence well for me it didnt warrant a reply.

kermanfu


Joined: 25/09/2008
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:23

I agree with you my friend.

kermanfu


Joined: 25/09/2008
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:23

To Ptepike



"What about the brave members of the Turkish Cypriot security forces who beat a helpless man to death on the ground and shot another one for climbing a flag pole. Did they ever face justice?"



You are 100 % correct, they will never face the justice until the end because the killer was a turkish and a member of the parlament. I believe it is understandable why he will never face the justice. Because in Turkey there is no justice and human rights.

kermanfu


Joined: 25/09/2008
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:23

By Sener Levent, Editor, Afrika newspaper



This person is a real Cypriot and he always writes the naked truth.

kermanfu


Joined: 25/09/2008
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:23

Iceman says





"I dont think you understand what i am saying...Coming to Cyprus in 1974 after the coup was within Turkeys rights,but her obligation was to re establish the territorial integrity and the security of the republic according to the constitution,then leave.Not to divide the island into two and set up an independent republic on the half she controlled..



It is for this reason,all the UN resolutions since then have been against the Turkish side"



100 % correct!!!!!!!This is the summery

ronaldo


Joined: 14/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 14:58

Kermanfu you! and a lot of others keep banging on about the two people who were shot ! and bringing people to justice . Whilst I dont condone the taking of innocent lives. all people should be brought to justice for crimes ! War crimes especially. But What justification do you suppose the T/Cs received at Tochni and still to this day no recognition of the massacre which took place .

ronaldo

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 16:43

I am sorry suzanne but to claim as you do in post 155 above that "most [TC] are now comming to live on the south of the island" is just not true or even remotely close to true. Do you have ANY real idea of the number of TC that live in the RoC let alone those that have chosen to move from the North in the last few years.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 17:48

Yes Suzanne

Please find out and tell us how many TC's are living in the south.

We would all like to find out this as you keep saying:



"most [TC] are now comming to live on the south of the island"



It would be very interesting? We are waiting.



Biker

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 18:08

Groucho msg 146: "...just in case you are wondering I've never been but I have interviewed many who were..."



In which capacity did you interview them?



msg 147: "I think it's a bit rude that's all..."



But you think it's OK for someone to tell two other members to f*** off? Tell me this - who are the moderators on this site, and are you one of them?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 18:17

Well, this thread has forced a few people to think for a change. My colleague Paul Harris reported on inter-communal fighting on the island of Sri Lanka (similarities anyone?) before being forced to leave - because the authorities didn't like the truth coming out.



Here's an extract:



That afternoon, the President told the nation: “The President’s Office takes serious note of the government’s decision not to extend the visa of journalist Mr Paul Harris . . . The President’s Office recalls that Mr Harris had accurately at the start of this year predicted certain developments with regard to the LTTE in the peace process: specifically, the use of schoolchildren and civilians to storm security forces’ camps. Further, we recognise that Mr Harris has freely reported on matters potentially embarrassing to the government and definitely embarrassing to the LTTE, namely the human rights violations in the north and the east subsequent to the ceasefire MOU, specifically that of child conscript

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 18:17

child conscription, extortion and security issues of the Muslim community in the East.



"Freedom of expression and the right of dissent are bedrock requirements for a democratic and free society and this insidious silencing of an often lone voice against the conventional wisdom of the government is a serious erosion of media freedom and a setback for democracy in Sri Lanka . . . The President has received no valid or acceptable reason from the Foreign ministry for refusing to extend Mr Harris’s visa and has informed the Government that it is not correct to refuse a visa for a journalist from a friendly country who has done no wrong.”

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 18:19

The next morning the telephone started to ring at 6.30. One newspaper carried the front page headline, ‘British journalist forced to leave Lanka’. The Island newspaper also headed its editorial for my last day, Friday, Hands off Paul Harris. I was moved by its support: “Mr Paul Harris undoubtedly is not a run-of-the-mill foreign correspondent. He has exposed LTTE violations of basic human rights in areas under LTTE control and brilliantly exposed the fascist nature of LTTE with the photograph of thousands of LTTE cadres delivering the fascist Hitlerite salute to LTTE leaders.”



Nanda made one of the dozens of telephone calls which came in. “What you have never understood about this country, Paul, is that it is based around rumour, not humour.”

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 18:21

The last sentence is the best - so TRNC...

daveb


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 19:23

stubs/pikey



if cyprus is for cypriots you two f..k off then and leave the cypriots alone



same message still now will you both f..k off

david bentley

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 20:06

Pike "In which capacity did you interview them?"



In my capacity working for HMG as a Special Cases Officer for the DHSS as was... I had to deal with many people who had been falsely imprisoned and also banged up in mental institutions for nothing other than for example being raped by their own father....



This was a total disgrace but quite common practice up to the time when societies like MIND took up their plight and made the awful truth known... Some of them had been sectioned as young girls and not released until they were in their 80's by which time they'd been institutionalised for so long they did not know how to fend for themselves...



Is that harrowing enough for you?



msg 147: "you think it's OK for someone to tell two other members to f*** off? Tell me this - who are the moderators on this site, and are you one of them? "



No I don't. I have already emailed Izzet complaining of their attacks on you and the foul language... I'm not a mod, sparring with you is OK

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 20:21

See Page 15 Cyprus 44.thread.



It was a desperate attempt to get the moderators to regulate comments being placed on this board,.....a.public forum!



The pleas went unheeded. They tried to shoot the messenger.



As forecast.....................the lunatics are out of the assylum......and spoiling it for the good guys1



wyn

stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 21:12

Dave B



Please go back and re-read what has been said. At no time did anyone say that Cyprus was for Cypriots. What was said that Cyprus belonged to Cypriots.



To clarify that Cypriot people by democratic means should be entitled to their own people running their own country. Very little happens in the north without the say so of Turkey.

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 21:37

Am I going mad here? I look fairly regularly on the forum, apart from anything else for useful information/news on NC in general and in particular the development where my villa has been/is being built. I also admit an interest in trying to understand the history of the island and have genuinely tried to obtain a balanced view from looking at the various posts from both sides of the spectrum. Whatever anyone posts, the future of NC will be decided by the politicians [whether in ROC, NC or Turkey] by the agendas they feel they must follow. All we see on the site are claims and counter claims by the computer protagonists of both sides. One faction's freedom fighters are the other sides ethnic cleaners/perpetrators of massacres. Perhaps what everyone needs to learn is that looking back to the past and indulging in claim and counterclaim will not get anyone anywhere.

TBC

Arthur


Joined: 04/11/2008
Posts: 687

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 21:53

I asked PP if I was ignorant, which he obligingly confirmed. What I should perhaps have posted is "am I ignorant of the facts". I don't need him to propose [by inference]that he is intellectually superior- I wouldn't make that myself and I shouldn't receive such.

Many people on this forum seem to spend an inordinate amount of time making posts and monitoring it for replies. C'mon guys, GET A LIFE, accept that people will have differing views; place postings that will inform, and hopefully educate; keep a sense of balance; spend a bit of time away from the computer; find some friends; call your loved ones to see that they're okay; have a glass of wine, or if it's your thing, smoke a spliff, but for heaven's sake CHILL OUT.

If you react to the wind up merchants, you're only doing precisely what they want.



Arthur

daveb


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 22:01

stups

you are not a cypriot so dont poke your nose in you and your sailor friend leave it alone and the cypriots will deal wuth it they dont need yaur b.....s

david bentley

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
19/11/2008 22:35

Suzanne wrote



"No i don`t know exact numbers but i could find out! as i could also find out how many tcs now have reclaimed there cypriot identity cards and how many have decided to work here etc. you will be pleasently surprised, i hope!!;) "



You do not need exact numbers to know that your claim that MOST TC were moving to the RoC is just not true. Your claim was not that most TC have RoC identity cards or work in the RoC, this is just distraction from you.



Can you not just admit that what you wrote was nothing more than made up rehtoric unsported and unsportable by any actual facts ?



Some how I suspect you will not be able to admit this in public with same abandond with which you made your original absurd claim but maybe you will prove me wrong ?

aweverard


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 54

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 00:31

Sue and Erolz,



I have asked a similar question on a number of BBs and it would appear that there is about 2000 TCs living in the south.

w26kay



Joined: 14/10/2007
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 02:27

Going back quite a way on this thread, I can honestly say that I have seen soldiers in Tempo on a number of occasions, in Nicosia Square sitting around drinking coffee/smoking, and on one occasion soldiers (in an army jeep) in a pizza takeaway by a garage in the Lapta area, ordering bulk pizzas for a substantial, (and finally agreed after lengthy negotiations) discount. So whilst they may have their NAFFI (or Turkish equivalent), they do access and use the facilities and services provided in the "outside" world. Don't forget also they access the same facilities and services whilst on leave too!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 07:23

Kay



Nobody said they don't make any use of ther shops and eateries.... but what was said, and is wrong, is that it appears the the whole economy is geared towards them which patently it is not... it is geared towards the TC population first then others with the Army coming a distant third...



Yes of course you see the odd example of Army personnel out and about. No one is saying you don't...



In Lefkosa you also see a lot more UN Personnel shopping than you do Turkish Army guys...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 10:21

Suzanne msg 172



"why would i make it up? it`s not my fault you don`t believe me or don`t like the truth!



i will prove you wrong when i have the results! "



Suzanne it is exactly because I do like the truth that I have picked you up on this ridiculous claim. You do know what 'most' means ? Your claim is just pure fantasy not supported by the facts. The actual number of TC residing in the RoC is tiny and most of those are there from pre 74 and their dependants. The number choosing to move post 74 from the North to the RoC is at most a few hundred. That is the truth and you might do better to consider why this is the case rather than just posting that most TC are moving to the RoC when this just is not ture or even remotely close to being true.

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 10:43

Majority of the 2000 or so Turkish speaking Cypriots resiiding in ROC at the moment are not Turkish Cypriots but Gurbet's (Cypriot Gypsies),who either did not move to the north in 1974 or returned back in mid 90's and claimed houses of Turkish Cypriots from ROC.Their numbers are higher than the official figures.



http://www.domresearchcenter.com/journal/18/cyprus8.html



These people come from a different ethnic background and used to live in a suburb of Limasol until 1974.Those majority of those who moved to the north in 1974 were relocated in Morphou (some in Famagusta) area but many of them returned back to Limassol in mid 90's..



http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cmnews/2001/01-05-22.cmnews.html

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 11:39

Good info Iceman... I always wondered where they came from and why they didn't move during the 74 movements north and south...



Is "Gurbets" a perjorative term or is it a perfectly OK way to refer to them, in their hearing of course? I only ask because there are many names for Gypsies in the UK and very few of these names are pleasant... Gypsies certainly don't appreciate a number of them.. especially when the term refers to a different type of Gypsy i.e. ethnic origin

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 11:45

Perhaps they were Pikeys???????



Lem

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 11:50

Gurbet is not a derogatory term..they call themselves Gurbet...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 12:21

Ah Gurbet... away from home... I think it's the same as UK Gypsies referring to themselves as Travellers....

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 17:01

Yes Suzanne



We are still waiting to find out what do you base this ridicilous claim on:



"most [TC] are now comming to live on the south of the island"



We are still waiting.



Biker

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 17:17

Its going to be like the Berlin wall coming down again with tens of thousand of the politically oppressed and starving Turkish Cypriots fighting the bad evil Turkish border guards to let them into the beautifull welcoming haven which is the Greek occupied zone. YEAH RIGHT !!!

iceman


Joined: 15/08/2008
Posts: 724

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 18:40

suzanne

I have nothing against TC's moving back to south to live...To be honest,if i was 10-15 years younger i would have seriously consider moving back myself.

But at the moment there isn't an influx of TC's moving to south as you say..

Considering the present condition in the north i reckon another 5-10 years the remaining TC's will eventually have enough of this situation and make the move claiming their ancestors properties in the south.

daveb


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 18:56

whatever they call themselves you arogant greek

daveb

sixpence


Joined: 14/07/2008
Posts: 25

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 19:23

My parents were here in 1963 and saw the monstrocities commited against the Turks. The Greeks decided they wanted this Island despite have having no historic claim. All lived peacefully until the Greek Government got greedy.

This island is stuck between two worlds and the North is suffering.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 19:30

sixpence,



At last a posting worthy of consideration! Keep it up.



wyn

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
20/11/2008 20:28

Nobody spotted my joke in message 180.



Boo hoo!



Lem

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
21/11/2008 05:15

Suzanne



".. & yes iceman tcs have recently moved south i even have tc neighbours who recently moved over. "



You still do not appear to get it do you?



You did not claim that TC are moving to the South, or that some are. Your claim was that MOST TC are moving to the South. Such patently untrue nonsense yet still you plough on against all evidence and reason to try and make out that your inital claim was not just plain untrue.



I have a TC cousin who returned to live in Cyprus from overseas and he lives in both the North and South now. This is not evidence of MOST TC moving to the South. I also know a GC who moved recently from the South to the North. This is not evidence that MOST GC are moving to the North.



Your claim was that MOST TC are moving to the South. The claim is untrue and not based on any credible evidence. Just admit this and we can let the whole thing drop. Keep on trying to make out yur claim was true and reasonable and Ill keep on with the real truth.

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
24/11/2008 14:55

Sixpence



" The Greeks decided they wanted this Island despite have having no historic claim. All lived peacefully until the Greek Government got greedy.



This island is stuck between two worlds and the North is suffering."





Probably the shortest and the most accurate statement I have heard recently.



Biker