Turkey: Erdogan warns Israel

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 09:45

For those of you who think Turkey is just postering:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14844902

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 13:42

Clearly this topic is too complicated to understand by the posters on here even though it could affect you all, oh well never mind, maybe I should have asked where I can buy a cake tin lol.

dublinderm


Joined: 26/09/2009
Posts: 538

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 14:11

Hi Nicola,



A very serious subject indeed.



It is about time that a significant regional/world power stood up to the Israelis and the manner in which they target all other people with seeming impunity. Maybe the US/EU will think twice before slavishly jusifying ever outrageous action by their so called 'aly'.



DD

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 14:16

Hi Nicola,



Been posting about this for weeks now.Thanks for the link,



Paul.

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 14:24

There could be trouble ahead, but while there's music and moonlight and love and romance ,lets face the music and dance......Or by a cake tin.





Sorry, that was for the Happy Clappy, I have a house in TRNC ........... Brigade..





Worrying Times I'd say.:(

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 14:26

DD and newlad thanks for the replies.



DD it is time indeed, Israel have bullied the Palestians for way too long and I agree it is time they were made to wind their necks in, they are bullies, pure and simple, they are now in a very dangerous position, the Jasmine spring or Arab uprising has changed the region permanently and israel is no longer afforded the protection it has enjoyed for the few decades. They will not take on the might of Turkey now.



newlad, I have read many of your excellent links, keep up the good work, you are one of my fav. posters, always an interesting read from you.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 15:13

Nicola



It is exactly that - posturing !!



No action has been taken so far, so what else can it be described as ???



I suspect that a compromise will be found before it escalates to any serious level.



For those who condemn Israel, it is worth remembering that whilst the UN report found that Israel was guilty of using 'excessive force' the UN recognised it's enforcing of a maritime blockade as legal.



Regards



Paul

dublinderm


Joined: 26/09/2009
Posts: 538

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 15:32

Hi again,



Israel has always been all too willing to apply 'excessive force' against the nationals of other countries (reverse anti-Semitism?). Israeli police and military have killed and maimed with impunity regardless of wether they had 'legality' on their side or not.



Maybe I am biased because they had a good go at me also by shelling me, firing tank rounds at me and then used small arms fire as well. Ok there were other people around, but you tend to take these things personally.



Why did they go after me? because I and my colleagues were witnesses to their brutality towards the Lebanese.



DD

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 16:53

posters who attack israel's actions mysteriously overlook what other powers are doing,

for example:



china

surpression of muslim uigars in sinkiang province; invasion of independent tibet 1950



portugal

grisley but failed supression of freedom struggles in angola, mozambique and gineau-bissau



britain and france

raining bombs outside europe and causing deaths of civilians in iraq, afghanistan, libya



usa

bombing laos and cambodia with the greatest intensity in world history,

destroying villages in vietnam in order to "save" them



syria

murdering thousands of their own unarmed protesters, torturing vastly more



hamas, current rulers of gaza

a long history of suicide bombings and firing off rockets at unarmed civilians



turkey

dealing firmly with a serious terrorist threat to the south-east, cross-border raids

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 17:27

Andre,



You forgot the Germans.They bombed our chippy,lol.Seriously though,a very vlaid post,



Nicola,



You make it all worth while,



Paul.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 18:12

http://www.hri.org/news/cyprus/cna/2011/11-09-09_1.cna.html#01



This just doesnt seem to be finger wagging anymore,



Paul.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 18:30

Paul, finger wagging is what you do to someone you are cross with, I don't think Turkey is cross with Cyprus/Greece, I think they are hopping mad lol. I am thinking of coming to the trnc but am waiting to see the outcome of all of this, in the meantime I will bask in the glorious Portuguese sunshine.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 18:31

Martin thanks for the



Those with houses in the trnc should be just a tad worried.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 18:32

Andre I can't be bothered to read your posts as sadly they bore me to death, sorry.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 18:37

Fiendish, Erdogan is doing more than posturing, he is threatening and the only 'compromise' is an apology from Israel.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 19:46

nicola,



how do you know my posts are boring if you can't be bothered to read them?



I'd agree that an apology from israel would be appreciated by erdogan

but turkey has not said it would desist from its threats toward the gas project



my theory, is that what really infuriates turkey is rejection by europe after 52

years trying to get in...and a vital part of this is the smug grandstanding by

the republic of cyprus, which continues to blockade and isolate the trnc



israel is a different kettle of fish:

here we can see the need to establish its unimpeachable pedigree within the

moslem world, and they may in the end succeed in breaking the seige of gaza:



...it would be a fine thing if hamas having already suspended its suicide

bombings, also undertook to stop the rocket attacks aimed at israeli civilians



finally and I guess if you read thus far you are probably far in the land of nod

you may be right about "more than posturing": let's hope it is "less than war"

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 19:50

Andre I read it through and I am still awake I agree with all you have said.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 19:53

msg 6:...........................They will not take on the might of Turkey now.



Nicola, you seem to be overlooking the fact that Israel's, suspected, nuclear weapons would trump any threat posed by Turkey's manpower. Without UN backing , most nations would refrain from doing more than "sabre rattling" .



T

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 19:58

Nicola



At the moment it is just words without actions, therefore it is posturing.



Personally, I think that Erdogan may have to wait a long time before he gets an apology, but I could be wrong.



Should the Turkish Navy decide to escort another convoy towards Gaza then we will have something to talk about. We will have a UN member (Israel) having its' (UN recognised blockade) being challenged by another UN member. Ban Ki Moon will be a busy chap. :-(



Regards



Paul

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 20:12

Minertor, suspected being the operative word although I think they do have them but would they push the button..NO..wankigoon, is about as much use as a chocolate teapot, he is a pathetic little man who lacks charisma and appears weak. Turkey will not back down.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 20:14

The wankigoon bit was in answer to fiendish, I agree fiendish I do not think the israelis' will apologise and that will be their downfall.



The Gaza blockade will fall and not before time.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 20:25

Nicola,



I dont think Turkey know how to back down.Not with the Erdy-girdy man at the helm.This will also give them a chance to patrol the Noble rig area,



Paul.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
09/09/2011 20:44

Nicola, Israel have been battling against overwhelming odds for over half a century. I suspect that the Arab nations surrounding them do not have your faith in Israel being reluctant to push the button.

As the Iraeli's say "Masada will not fall again"

or words to that effect.



T

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 13:44

nicola....dont bet on turkey breaking the Gaza blockade. The Egyptians tried and lost as did the Syrians and I put Turkey in that catagory.If Turkey is stupid enough to send Warships to escort an illegal operation then I am afraid that Israel would have every right to blow them out of the water, and they have the weapons to do that. I am not pro Israel,but I do believe in any nation protecting there right to exist. I bel;ieve the Israel premier hit the nail onthe head when he said "If Hamas were to lay their weapons down today their would be instant peace,but if Israel were to put their weapons down their would be NO Israel". What I would like to know is,what is Erdogan trying to prove? One thing is for sure there will be a lot less Isreali investment in the TRNC which is the last thing you want.!!!!!!

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:04

Coachie



It isn't often I agree with you - but this time I think that you are spot on



With the Middle East in chaos,it is the perfect opportunity for Turkey to take the lead and try to broker peace in this troubled region. Instead, Erdogan seems to be going in the opposite direction - a strange decision but maybe popular with his electorate ???



Regards



Paul

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:07

Coachie, Palastine has a right to exist as well but you seem to have ignored that, you do, I fear underestimate Turkey. The israelies are bullies pure and simple and they have had their own way far too long, they are now in the minority and shut keep their heads down.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 14:37

Re 26,



First. Palestine will have a right to exist the day they will be under ONE representative government (instead of doezens of militant groups each one with its own agenda)

Second. When the first occurs, they should clearly recognise israel's right to exist without any stupid demands based on flooding Israel with millions of third generation "refugues".

Simples, everything else is negotiable.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 15:06

I find it very foolish for some who put Turkey and it's military might (biggest in Europe & 8th in the World, and soldiers with balls of steel to go with it!) "in par with Syria and Egypt" - WHAAAT? I suspect it is more a total lack of knowledge about the military capabilities and strength of nations in the Middle East.

Forget about using nuclear arms - for if they do, it will entitle other nuclear powers (such as Iran) to press the button as well. But will even the threat of a nuclear strike deter Turks? I can comfortably say NO! There is already an early warning system covering Eastern half of Turkey with enough "anti missile missiles" providing an umbrella for such an attack. Let me pose a war scenario to all those dreamers who think Israel can really defend itself against Turkey:

Israeli gun ships try to ram the aid vessels ignoring & avoiding the accompanying Turkish warships in the vicinity.

Turkish warships open fire and sink an Israeli gunboat or two.

(continues!)

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 15:18

Israel responds by sending in the air force, so does Turkey. Dog fights, losses by both sides. Turkey uses their fuel transport craft to refuel hundreds of F16s doing sorties non stop over Israel - albeit at a great loss! But who cares, these guys rather die than lose a battle, because they will be martyrs...

US and UN put pressure o Turkey to pull back, and US navy threatens to get involved. On the other hand, believing this to be a once in a life time opportunity, the Palestinians, The Lebanese, The Egyptians and even the Jordanians decide they will throw in everything they have, to finish off İsrael once and for all. Especially Egypt and Lebanon (Hamas) decide it is pay back time.

Turkey decides to send in a fraction of her army - say 250,000 , plus 500 tanks, long range guns, heavy artillery etc through Syria and Lebanon, and possibly position them in Lebanon. At this stage just remember how the Israeli ground forces failed miserably against Hamas in their last invasion atte

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 15:30

Now they will have a properly trained and equipped army just as war thirsty as Hamas when it comes to protecting their Nation, AS WELL AS Hamas, Palestinian fractions, Egypt and possibly Jordan - all having a go at them!

Let me sum it up for you if you like; the only force that will save Israel would be if the US and Europe interfere and send forces into the area trying to deter Turkey! Will UK or Germany do? I doubt very much. AND assuming they did, by the time any truce becomes effective, there will not be much of the Israeli population or their "occupied" lands left behind to rule the region as they did before. The whole geography and population distribution in that part of the world would change for good.

One final word of warning to those who are not able to read Turkish News Online and Turkish forums. Whatever I read, there are hundreds of Turkish posters who are egging the government to go to war with Israel and ... (continues)

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 15:38

well said big oz 100% correct

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 15:39

...they are stating they will rush to join the army so as to get a chance to have a go at the "Israeli bullies". Most of the public feeling in Turkey is the same. After the humiliating and cowardly attack on armless Turkish Nationals on ships carrying aid to Palestine (killing nine and maiming many others), the Israeli's big headed and non-caring attitude have made both the public at large and government ministers cry for some kind of action. By deciding to aid South Cyprus Government (for economic gain) against all objections by Turkey must have been the last straw.

Erdoğan now, is the "Thatcher" of Turkey - he will not back down, he will go all the way and the, Turkish army will be only too happy to honor his wishes. Either way, it will be a mother of wars where two modern nations who had never lost a war they entered will be facing each other. At that point - I will bet all my earthly belongings on Turkey to win - because any other outcome is just inconcievable...

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 15:48

Coachie

When you use quotes like

" If Turkey is stupid enough to send Warships to escort an illegal operation then I am afraid that Israel would have every right to blow them out of the water"



You seem to have a very strange belief that what israel is doing to the Palestenians with the blockade and constant killing of thousands of civilians are justified, but when other countries are sending in civilian ships containing food and medicine, to help these people, they are doing something illigal.



This is a completely biased opinion. It is about time that someone can stand up to these bullies of the middle east who have been acting like spoilt children all along the way.

Good on you Erdogan for having the balls to stand up for what you believe in.

On the subject of UK intervening, they do not have a very good track record as they did not intervene even when they should have in Cyprus even though they were the quarantors.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 16:25

bigoz and Biker, respect to you both.

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 16:36

Bludy 'eck Oz, ya 'ad me looking fer me flags, the red on white an' the white on red, mentioning Saint Maggie put the icing on. Dunno if I totally agree with what you say, or if you're 100% right, but if yer are, I'll buy 'em next time I see yer, an' throw in the fish 'n chips.

Now, where's that bludy drum!





T

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 17:03

Thanks Oz absolute agreement, the Israelies have asked USA to help protect their embassies - as I said in the post last week (then was called a racist) Israel are bullies because of the might of USA behind them. Read in Sunday Telegraph Magazine last week half the congress and senate have dual citizenship with Israel, also says that you cannot have dual citizenship if you are from a Muslim country - now who are racists. Got my flags flying already (TRNC and Turkish) high on flagpoles in the garden. Must meet up Oz.

russianbabe


Joined: 19/08/2011
Posts: 130

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 17:06

two nuclear russian subs heading to roc to protect the roc interests

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 17:20

Thanks Oz absolute agreement, the Israelies have asked USA to help protect their embassies





Egypt have closed the Israeli embassy in Cairo.

Do you think they read C44?



T

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 18:32

Big Oz has voiced the sentiments of many Turks and Turkish Cypriots. I have no time for Israelis and quite often Greek Cypriots who accuse the other side of racism. they are the biggest offenders themselves. Greeks and Greek Cypriots are the spoilt chidren of Europe and the Israelis are the spoilt children of USA. When the chips are down, the Europeans will stand back because their own self interests always come first. The same thing cannot be said for USA because American Foreign Policy is dominated by Jews. So turkey will have to be more careful and will avoid any rush action.



Turkey has been re-evaluating her foreign policies and Europe will regret her cold sholdering of Turkish application to join. In fact it was a mistake to try to join. EU has become too big anyway and the euro was the biggest mistake which will lead to its eventual collapse in the not too far future. Turkey with her young and dynamic population has a bright future. Israel will regret 2011.

ismet

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 18:43

The oricle has spoken.

Geejay


Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 475

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 18:44

I used to support the Israeli policies in Gaza and the West Bank......No more. They have proved to be bullies, intolerant and intractable. They don't want peace just land.



A few thoughts on this current situation.

Turkey or any other country is completely entitled to have ships in international waters. It has every right to protect it's shipping. An attack in those waters by Israel would be a declaration of war.



The USA will take all necessary steps to persuade Israel to avoid conflict with it's NATO ally Turkey to avoid being drawn in. It will be difficult for it to take sides but needs to keep NATO together.



It will also persuade another NATO nation (Greece) to keep out. Cyprus not being in NATO and militarily weak is irrelevant.



Israel does not know how to make friends and influence people. First it lost Turkey and now Egypt as friends and allies. Even the USA now finds it difficult to support their expansionist policies.



NATO does not want a "Holy War". Just look at

stelee77


Joined: 06/06/2011
Posts: 557

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 18:54

The euro will not collapse.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 18:56

Big Oz..with all their supreme soldiers, airforce and navy they cannot even keep the Kurds down.I think you have a lot of mis placed trust in this supreme fighting force of Turkey.If the flotilla where the Turks were killed had done the same as the other ships and diverted to the Israeli port for inspection nothing would have happened.



Nicola..I agree that palestine is entitled to their sovereignty as well as Israel,but as one other poster has said not under two leaderships.Hamas should have no rights in determ,ining the rights of the genuine Palestinian person.Their rule is worse than anything that Israel could dream up and they are killing their own people every day who happen to disagree with them.Israel has never fired on Gaza except in retaliation.Food is allowed and medcation every day from the overland convoys through the correct crossings where they can be checked for weapons etc. as for them killing thousands ever day that is rediculous,there wopuld be nobody left by now..

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:10

big oz, nicola, in regard to the posts by the blind labourite, humour him. He's pretty harmless, Blair and Brown are still heros to such as he, regardless have how history will paint them.



T

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:21

minertor if you want to take the mickey then please use my post name.I have never been a Blair or Brown hero as you state although I do own up to being a Labour supporter. There is obviously something in my post that you disagree with so why ask some else to do your work for you. I would like to see what the other lot would have done in 2001,but then they agreed to Blairs decision to act on terrorism.I do not see Israels actions to be any different than ours in 1939 when we went to war with the biggest terrorist of all times.So if you want me humored then do it yourself....

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:30

Coachie, minertor is quite right about you, you are an old fool and you forget that the palestinians voted Hamas in.



Not enough medication and food are 'allowed in' to serve any purpose and for that matter what right do the jews have to decide what get in through Gaza, they are a warmongering breed of peoples who do not want peace. Mark Regev, that well known comedian has just been on the sky lying through his teeth yet again. boy oh boy would I like to wipe that insipid grin off his smug face, although I have to say he is looking and sounding a touch nervous lol.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:30

Elko2 wise works from a wise man.

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:31

Blair and Brown should be arrested, Blair for war crimes and Brown for same and destroying the british economy.

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:38

Nicola..I might be old but I am not a fool, and it is the policy of this forum not to insult other forum members whether you like there opinions or not.....

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 19:45

nicola... If my old memory serves me correctly,hamas were voted in after assanating some of the opposition members and threatening the Gaza people and murdering some of the Gaza people to make sure they were voted in. Why do people like you always find some excuse to feel sympathy for a bloodthirsty organisation like Hamas,you will be feeling sorry for Bin Laden next!!!!!

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 20:03

Oh coachie, I am so sorry for truthfully calling you an old fool, got anything to say on the others points I made?

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 21:12

Cochie

Do you have any idea how many women and children were killed in the last assault on gazza by israel, where they used cluster bombs which are illegal weapons.

Get real about the israel policies. They will stop at nothing to occupy palestine and and build more houses even though this has been declared illegal by united nations.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 21:45

Biker, do you have any idea how many palestinians were killed by their own people? Just factions/clans figting for power, traditional honour killings not counted?



So far, any claims about cluster bomb use remain unsubstantiated. One thing is for sure: gaza's militants were/are deliberately targeting Israeli civilians. Get real. Any other army would have caused more casualties (Chechnya, Afghanistan, NATO airstrikes against Gaddafi...)

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 22:09

Biker



Get real about the israel policies. They will stop at nothing to occupy palestine and and build more houses even though this has been declared illegal by united nations.



To say this whilst living in the 'occupied' territories of Cyprus (at least in the eyes of the rest of the world) is a little bit rich.



Recognition of the state of Israel by Hamas and the ceasing of rocket fire and suicide bombings might go a long way to bringing about peace.



Paul

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 22:38

.I have never been a Blair or Brown hero as you state although I do own up to being a Labour supporter. There is obviously something in my post that you disagree with so why ask some else to do your work for you. I would like to see what the other lot would have done in 2001,but then they agreed to Blairs decision to act on terrorism.I do not see Israels actions to be any different than ours in 1939 when we went to war with the biggest terrorist of all times.So if you want me humored then do it yourself....

Sorry coachie, I didn't realise that I'd said that you were the hero of the 2B's.

as to humouring you,

A horse walks into a pub, the barman says "why the long face"



T

Donaldson


Joined: 13/05/2011
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:05

Magbs, msg 53:

While the allegations of recent cluster bomb use remain unsubstantiated, back in 2009 the Israelis definitely used white phosphorus shells against civilian targets, including a UN supply depot, in contravention of the Geneva Convention.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7831424.stm

If they broke the rules then, the chances of them doing it again must surely be greater now.

Donaldson


Joined: 13/05/2011
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:28

And now the Israeli Foreign Minister is threatening to aid the Armenian lobby in the USA and even to give military aid to the PKK, an internationally-recognised terrorist organisation.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4119984,00.html

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:33

Israel will be the master of its own downfall and deservedly so. I DO NOT AND NEVER HAVE RECOGNISED ISRAEL, IT IS OCCUPIED PALESTINE.

Magbs


Joined: 26/02/2009
Posts: 278

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:49

You are right, there was white phosphorus back in 2009. Civilian targets? Oh, please, any place ceases to be a civilian when the enimy uses it. Enything else leads to granting an illogical advantage to an enemy hiding weapons in such a building.

In a war civilians always suffer, especially when combatants hide among civilians and store weapons in private homes and places of worship. The Geneva Convention clearly states that the presence of civilians does not grant immunity from military attacks. Those who use civilians in that way are responsible for the

civilian casualties.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:53

The Irony of two nations that ignore UN security council resolutions re occupying other nations sovereign territory now potentially having 'spat' is somewhat ironic...



Now, we have the Israeli embassy being attacked in Egypt ...



If something bad happens tomorrow in the US ( 11/9/ ) - if viewing later - you can BET Israel will get anything help they ask for...

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
10/09/2011 23:57

mmmmmmm you should be a little less cavalier with your predictions me thinks

Donaldson


Joined: 13/05/2011
Posts: 86

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 01:57

Msg 59: Magbs, did you actually read the link I posted? The target was the UN Relief and Works Agency. Are you suggesting the UN depot was being used by the Palestinians, rather than by the UN to help the civilians caught up in the war?

The UNRWA director "said the shells set alight part of a warehouse in which there were stored thousands of tonnes of food and medicine, and the workshop area. The fires then threatened to engulf five fuel tankers, which had been due to be sent out that morning, but could not leave because it was too dangerous outside."

Is this a legitimate military target for battlefield-only munitions?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 09:37

re 61 Nicola, I predict someone will give me a clue that we chatted before..! ? ;) Carry on with the red top sensationalism..

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 09:44

mmmmmmm I don't think we have ever chatted before RED TOPS are not my cup of tea, far too lowly

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 10:37

Donaldson



"And now the Israeli Foreign Minister is threatening to aid the Armenian lobby in the USA and even to give military aid to the PKK, an internationally-recognised terrorist organisation".



I think that you will find that Hamas are on the same 'internationally recognised' list as the PKK



Paul

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 12:00

ncola..what the Israelis did as far as using cluster bombs or phospherous shells is no different to the carpet bombing of germany that was carried out by our own airforce in ww2.it is a means of destroying a peoples will to wage war.Once again carried out in retalliation for indescriminate rocket s bei fired on civllians in Israel.



Minitor ...Very funny bars you visit if they allow horses in there!!!!

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 13:03

friendishpaul

regarding your quote:

"To say this whilst living in the 'occupied' territories of Cyprus (at least in the eyes of the rest of the world) is a little bit rich. "



My dad owns 40 donums of land in Mari where it is occupied by the Greeks very near the power station that blew up, which is actually Turkish land too, and I have 2 donums of land as exchange given to me in the north.

So do you still think that I am living on occupied land?So do not make comments without knowing jack s**t



Donaldson

Thank you for your comments on clusters bombs that were used in Gazza.

It was all over the televisions as well. But some people only want to see what they believe in and stick their heads in sand about the real truth, if it is not in their own interest.

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 14:02

Biker



I was making the point that in the eyes of the international community, the TRNC is 'occupied territory' and that Turkey did something (at least in the eyes of the international community) not dissimilar to what the Israelis have done. I don't hear you making a similar case for the Greek Cypriots ???



Regards



Paul

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 14:09

fp message 68:



the reason your argument falls at the first hurdle, is that we are talking about

very different points of view and entrenched attitudes rather than various sets

of facts...whatever they really are

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 14:19

re 69



andre514



I fail to see how SOUND reasoning 'fails' at any hurdle' outside the 'TRNC' / TR sphere of 'understanding'..



You DO know of the UN Security Council Resolutions that Turkey is ignoring re Cyprus, the findings of the ECHR, and a net result being Turkey having to implement a local remedy re usurped property... an implementation that successive 'rump' RoC politicians / businessmen have SELFISHLY pilloried Cypriots for daring to use... ?



Could you 'explain' your reasoning behind your 'conclusion' ?

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 14:54

re 69

Many M's. nice innit,

yknow what the Chinese is for 69,

tucanchu





T

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 15:29

Andre



You are of course entitled to your opinion but to me their are clear similarities between the Palestinian and Cypriot 'occupied territories' . Grateful if you could clarify your point but from what I see, different points of view and entrenched attitudes appear to fit the bill in both cases.



Regards



Paul

minertor



Joined: 14/02/2009
Posts: 1238

Message Posted:
11/09/2011 15:43

would love to continue, but ..................................................................she says

see yer tomorrer



T

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/09/2011 23:59

fiendishpaul,



generally I'd agree with your arguments

but to get most contributors to agree on this thread is going to be difficult or impossible,

that is what I meant



not only can you argue that there are contested territories in both israel and north cyprus,

but both israel and turkey are fighting bitter battles with insurgents and that is why their

former strategic alliance was so useful to both countries



...it is just that given similar events some people may prefer to see them differently

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
13/09/2011 00:20

biker,msg 67

I know your msg was addressed to someone else,but please allow me.....



"My dad owns 40 donums of land in Mari where it is occupied by the Greeks very near the power station that blew up, which is actually Turkish land too, and I have 2 donums of land as exchange given to me in the north."



As much as it does not justify the fact of you not being able to use your land in Mari,there is also nothing to stop you from claiming it back again,even with the 2 donums you had been given as an exchange in the north since it is not recognised.

I'm also aware of the fact that,all the land/property belonging to our fellow greek countrymen in the northern part is classe as accupied simply because there is no peace agreement on the island.



However,I do understand your frusturation knowing how many of our fellow turkish countrymen has been given so called exchanges as opposed to what they had left behind in the southern part......which is zilch.......let alone the settlers.......

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
13/09/2011 00:20

mark message 70 etc,



again you are play-acting at having no particular personal "angle"

but your choice of words totally belies it

I'd hoped these issues were resolved last month with "agendagate"



you often talk about "cyprus" and "cypriots" even though there are

two separate administrations currently negociating with each other



use of the word "usurped" neither describes the workaday selling-on of

property to an ex-pat, neither does it hint the loss was likely permanent



I'm sure turkey never ignored resolutions, instead studying them carefully

...what they have done is failed to act upon them except when forced,

but this has somehow always bothered you, in an obsessive way

Biker



Joined: 11/01/2008
Posts: 396

Message Posted:
14/09/2011 20:24

For all those who continue to play the ostrich game.



Have a look at this.



http://youtu.be/Ns2o-67yg_4

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
14/09/2011 20:58

Biker, I cannot stomach to watch such horrors, I am sure plenty on here will and will still 'applaud' israel.



I am proud to say I am not one of them.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/09/2011 13:35

re 76 andre514



>>again you are play-acting at having no particular personal "angle" <<



and yet, AGAIN, I would remind you that you've had this spoon fed, but you KEEP making the same daft comments - no 'personal angle' - just one that isn't blinkered ....



Your "agendagate", 'lecture' from me clearly fell on selectively deaf ears





>>you often talk about "cyprus" and "cypriots" even though there are



two separate administrations currently negociating with each other <<



THAT would be because they are ( well were, mainly) Cypriots ( before mass importation of TURKISH mainlanders) and the international legal perspective is ONE legal entity - talking to representatives of a non-recognised one..



The use of usurped is highly appropriate, and the permanence is debatable - but fair to assume based on anything like a version of Annan - GCs will ultimately be able to live / work freely where they like...given time.



Cont)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/09/2011 13:37

>>I'm sure turkey never ignored resolutions, instead studying them carefully



...what they have done is failed to act upon them except when forced,



but this has somehow always bothered you, in an obsessive way<<



You clearly can't be aware of the UN Security council Resolution asking for nations to remove their forces from the Sovereign territory of the RoC..? What 'bothers' me ( AGAIN) is your selective 'ignorance' ..

fiendishpaul


Joined: 18/05/2008
Posts: 1720

Message Posted:
15/09/2011 15:58

Biker



Re 77



I don't consider myself an ostrich and the link that you have shown is emotive and extremely sad - no one wishes to see scenes like that. However, it could just as easily have been a film showing casualties from the firing of Hamas rockets or the victims of Hamas suicide bombings in Israel. No one is the winner when it comes to conflicts like these.



Israel, as an internationally recognised state has the obligation to defend its' citizens against attack. Hamas, as an internationally recognized terrorist organization has the choice to rest its' weapons, formally recognise Israel and then maybe a solution can be found. Unfortunately Hamas refuses to even contemplate this act.....and so the tragedy continues.



Paul

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
16/09/2011 00:33

mark messages 79/80:



the important thing about the un resolutions

is that unless somebody comes forward with the military muscle,

they will of course remain little more than paper declarations



...until they eventually recede into the mists of time



while what looks like "usurped" to you is also one of the countless

migrations and reoccupations in modern history that may be dealt

with either by blank denial or by compromise



and as regards the arrival of mainland turks from 1974 on,

while I respect those cypriots who say thay are appalled or an

ex-pat finding the situation regrettable,

again history teaches us that the distinction will eventually blur:



unlike the divergence between north and south that is widening