Ireland: I know about 'rehabilitation of offenders' but

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 07:16

Irish presidency - Sinn Fein to put Martin McGuinness forward

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14943373

BBC

Given that Martin McGuinness made decisions that cost innocent people their lives, is it right that he should be considered a suitable candidate for the position of Irish President?

I understand that he is walking the path of peace now but it still sends a shiver down my spine and I fear it sends the wrong message about suitability for leadership.

Ailletoo


Joined: 24/01/2009
Posts: 1003

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 08:14

Well... They elected De Valera, say no more!

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 08:49

Groucho, are you implying that it's only OK for 'leaders' to make decisions that cost innocent people their lives AFTER they have been elected? - or is it your contention that no one capable of making such a decision should ever be elected?

I'm thinking in terms of Churchill, Thatcher, Blair, Bush etc.

If we had known that they were capable of making decisions that cost innocent people their lives, do you think that they should still have qualified to be put forward?

Also do you think that the 'rehabilitation of offenders' should only be on YOUR terms? - i.e. do you only pay it lip service?

dublinderm


Joined: 26/09/2009
Posts: 538

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 09:20

Hi,



I am Irish and I do not want to see that bank robbing murdering b*st*rd as my Head of State.



This would make him Commander in Chief of the Irish Defence Forces (the legitimate ones).



Also he would be greeting other Heads of State. I cannot see any British Royal visits for a few years.



His entry into the election has had the effect that many people who were not going to bother to vote will now do so - many just to make sure he does not get in.



DD

stubbs1


Joined: 07/08/2011
Posts: 174

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 15:28

DD "Also he would be greeting other Heads of State. I cannot see any British Royal visits for a few years." Be Jaysus you've only had one in a hundred years.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 15:38

lancashirelad

It's a bit like putting Gary Glitter up for head of an orphanage if you ask me. He's hardly Nelson Mandela material. I tend to side with dublinderm on this matter.

dublinderm


Joined: 26/09/2009
Posts: 538

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 16:24

Hi again,



Not so stubbs1. We may have only had one by a reigning Monarch in 100 years, but the others are relatively frequent visitors.



Princess Anne is here a lot for horsey stuff. Prince Edward has interests in the west of Ireland, and Wliiam pops over in the helicopter more than people realise.



Remember though he is only a CANDIDATE he has to get elected first. Let's hope that does not happen.



DD

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 16:44

Lord Mountbatten used to visit till they blew him out of the water....

gusanova


Joined: 23/11/2010
Posts: 187

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:06

Its going to be upto the Irish Electorate.



If he gets a lot of votes then there is still wholesale support for Republicanism, if not then it shows that the Irish Electorate have better things to vote for and could end all this SF for good.



So is it a show or a gamble!!

dublinderm


Joined: 26/09/2009
Posts: 538

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:34

Remember that it was McGuinesses' mates who blew up Mountbatten.





Not in my name!!!





DD

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:35

It is the Republic of Ireland already... so they don't need to change to republicanism. He's standing for President of the Republic

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:37

Groucho, I don\'t think that it\'s at all \"like putting Gary Glitter up for head of an orphanage\" - I wouldn\'t dispute that GG is unsuitable for that post as my personal opinion is that you can\'t re-wire a peadophile\'s brain - just that the analogy is flawed.

As for \'Nelson Mandela material\' - have you \'forgotten\' that NM was leader of the Armed Wing of the ANC, and directly responsible for deaths of, and injuries to hundreds of innocent people - the Landmine Campaign for instance, which resulted in a high rate of civilian casualties—especially amongst black labourers. You might have thought, at that time, that NM himself was not \'Nelson Mandela Material\'

Although you only asked a question in putting this topic up for discussion, you have not I think, adequately defended the contention that \'making decisions that cost innocent people their lives\' should disqualify someone from being a candidate.

OR stated whether you BELIEVE in the principle & practice of Re-rehabil

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:40

Contd..

OR stated whether you BELIEVE in the principle & practice of Re-rehabilitation of Offenders.

Incidentally. I don\'t disagree with a word that dublinderm has written, just your flawed logic

I wouldn\'t want to see the murdering B**** as President either - I just don\'t hide behind specious arguments when I state it.

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:42

I\'m sorry, I don\'t know where all the \'backslashes\' came form

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 17:42

or \'from\' !

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 18:02

I do believe in the rehabilitation of offenders but criminal pasts should also determine whether you can be a candidate for parliamentary leadership. In my opinion membership of a proscribed terrorist organisation ought to preclude presidential aspirations in Ireland.

I fear you have swallowed the SA Government's view of NM as leader of the ANC. His reasons for refusing to give up the struggle against Apartheid (and as a result spend 27 years in prison) are not the same as those of an organisation with a history of robbing banks, drug-running, bombing, knee-capping and murdering their own people in power struggles which have very little to do with the rule of law and natural justice.

I commend Martin McGuinness' turn of conscience but I don't see him as suitable Presidential material.

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 18:45

\"I do believe in the rehabilitation of offenders but\" - there\'s always a \'BUT\' to suit oneself, when one has a contrary opinion

Anyway - \"BUT criminal pasts should also determine whether you can be a candidate for parliamentary leadership\" - BUT *not* in NM\'s case, obviously - according to you

I don\'t actually (for sure) know what the \'SA Government\'s view\' is, so I don\'t know if I swallowed it or not - DO you? - \'for sure\'?

\"His reasons........are not the same as.......\"

Are you saying then, that one can actually DO the same things as \'terrorists\' as long as the REASONS (in your opinion, anyway) are not the same? - and presumably, in YOUR opinion, justify those actions?

Remember that one man\'s Freedom Fighter is ALWAYS another\'s Terrorist

You never did answer the question about whether a known ability to \'make decisions that cost innocent people their lives\' should preclude one from candidature for leadership. Frankly, I would think that it was essenti

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 19:11

lancashirelad

I'm finding your posting style very difficult to follow...

For the record - in the UK you can't be an MP if you have a criminal record unless that criminal record is expunged. NM's criminal record (trumped-up charges by a propagandist Apartheid regime) was expunged.

I don't hold with anybody carrying out terrorist atrocities... and I would automatically exclude anybody with a past in so doing.

The only reason I drew the comparison with NM was that MM is being touted as 'man of peace' and to be quite frank, I think he only is, because it suits him and his agenda. He seeks power. I wouldn't give it to him.

Please don't shout.. I'm entitled to my opinion even if you don't agree.

stubbs1


Joined: 07/08/2011
Posts: 174

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 20:10

DD.

It's a democracy so that means the people decide. So like most political arguments nobody gives a toss what you think me old bog trotter.

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 20:36

Groucho, I\'m very sorry about the \'style\', if you mean the backslashes - I really don\'t know where they\'re coming from

Also, I wasn\'t intentionally shouting - I would have used italics for emphasis, but for the limitations of this board - I apologise for that also

I don\'t recollect saying, or implying that you are not entitled to your opinion

I was, however, under the impression that you had opened a debate by asking a question in your original post

If you do not wish to have your opinion, or your stated reasons for holding that opinion challenged, then say so - I do not (often ) argue/debate with anyone who is not a willing participant

I do personally think that your final comment is intended to diminish my (debating) position by implying that I am denying you the right to hold, and state, your opinion - just my opinion, of course

There are still a lot of my questions that you haven\'t answered - and you seem to avoid the admitted fact that NM was the actual leader of

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 20:37

Cont\'d

... and you seem to avoid the admitted fact that NM was the actual leader of the armed wing of the ANC - surely you are not in denial about that?

I wonder how many people would accept your personal evaluation of MM as a valid reason for excluding him from the democratic process? - That really was rhetorical - the ballot box reveal all...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 21:40

I'm not trying to diminish you right to debate or challenge, I was merely asking that you desist from shouting. Which you have done. So thanks for that however, I think to a large extent you are arguing for the sake of it. As you seem to agree with Dublinderm, or do you think MM is a fit person to be President of Ireland? If it is the latter then we have a debate - if not then what is your point?

The ANC is and was a political party that was suppressed in the most brutal way in its early days. Little wonder then that they felt the need to take up arms in their struggle. However their tactics might have been described by the powers that ruled SA at the time (subversive/terrorist) they did not take to institutionalised mafia-like operations as practised in NI by the IRA - The Real IRA - The Provisionals et al.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 21:50

Ashamedly, being a nasty terrorist is practically serving an apprenticeship for head of state.



Look at Begin and others in Israel, De Valera in Ireland, numerous Africans, umpteen Greek Cypriots.



Need I go on.



If the Irish boycott the election they will increase the chances of the so and so getting in.



Lancashire lad; grow up. Next you'll be calling Churchill a terrorist.

lancashirelad


Joined: 18/09/2008
Posts: 74

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 10:04

Groucho, what I was debating was your contention that the ability & willingness to make decisions that cost innocent people their lives was somehow sufficient in itself to render someone unsuitable as a candidate for the position of Irish President.

I think that we've thrashed that one to death now



newscoop, I agree with your assessment - but as for your final comment, you might wonder what the innocent population of Dresden thought of Churchill and his friend Bomber Harris.



Groucho, thank you for recommending 'Page Eight' - I thoroughly enjoyed it. In that, at least, your judgment was impeccable

keldanreb


Joined: 17/09/2009
Posts: 212

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 10:48

when the real i.r.a. killed a police officer.

martin mcguiness had the guts to call the real i.r.a........... TRAITORS

that took proper guts.

so i say fair play to the man,the world is full of leaders with a dubious past.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 19:22

Do you not think 'proper guts' would have been to name them?

"so i say fair play to the man,the world is full of leaders with a dubious past." I don't regard the fact as mitigating the desire to have leaders without dubious pasts. Surely they can find somebody without blood on their hands.... maybe not. Maybe there is no one in the whole of Ireland suitable to stand against Martin McGuinness, what a shame that would be :(