New here...questions re TRNC property!

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 13:30

Hi. I've been lurking here for a while and have decided to come out of the closet ;o) I have some questions, well, matters of concern really, that I'd like to air with you guys "on the ground".



Here is the situation - my partner and I (unmarried) have been living in Spain for around a decade. I am a UK national, he is TC (TC parents, tho born in the UK). We are considering a move to TRNC - partly for a "change of scenery" and partly because my partner's elderly mother lives there and is increasingly unwell. So, we have been exhaustively checking out the property situation etc. Reading and listening to everything/everyone, it seems that the only properties to consider buying are those with pre-74 deeds, either Turkish or foreign. Now, from what I understand, I, as a foreigner, stand no chance of being granted a PTP on a pre-74 Turkish title deed property, even if I were buying with my TC partner. Am I correct?



OK - seems posts have to be short! I shall have to reply to my own pos

ranas


Joined: 13/09/2011
Posts: 115

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 13:48

Dear Dimmock,



Basically PTP are not granted to non-nationals where the property in question is Turkish title deed. Dont get scared though. The main concern in the TRNC are with the constructors and developers and should not be the nature of the title deed. Look at property that has its own title deed and try to avoid contracting with constructors, but moreseo just a landowner. If you have further questions or concerns please email us at info@bhlex.com. We are a law and consultancy bureau dealing mainly in this sphere.



Good luck!

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 13:57

I think if you buying with your TCY partner you would not have any problems.

russianbabe


Joined: 19/08/2011
Posts: 130

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 14:49

do not buy

rent first

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 14:56

I am certain your partner would have no issue buying. He would have to register for a Kimlik card. This takes a day. After that he does not need to apply for PTP. Because your unmarried you would probably have no advantages. But you need proper advise I would check it out with a lawyer try: http://peymanerginel-lawfirm.com/

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 16:16

Thanks. We aren't interested in off-plan or new build - we want a resale with character. The OH could, of course, buy a pre-74 Turkish title deed property - but then where does that leave me, even if I put money into it? Would I be able to acquire residency if I didn't own the property, simply lived there?



Pre-74 foreign title deed properties seem to be rare and over-priced (obviously). In fact, ALL property seems to be pretty over-priced! Is the market really that buoyant there? Or are vendors/agents being unrealistic? It seems that there are 2 (or more) property "streams", one for TCs and one for foreigners. If you CAN buy a pre-74 Turkish deed title house, you can only sell it on to TCs...if you stick it out for a foreign title deed property, you have to pay over the odds. Or, you get stuck with exchange properties, which nobody wants to buy!



And the PTP process! Do buyers/sellers really just have to sit and wait until it's granted? The selling process must take forever!

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 16:37

You seem to have grasped the purchasing situation. The logic behind pre 74 titles is to prevent the loss of these properties from the TCY community. Too many were being sold to foreigners. Its difficult for TCYs to argue and negotiate on ownership of the island if the reality is that what they legally ( international) own is under 20%.



I am not sure what your rights would be if you bought a property with a TCY?



Your only other option is to get married.



or rent see how it goes. renting is fairly cheap.



I personally would not touch exchange or new builds.

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 18:22

RENT, DO NOT BUY!!!

nicola


Joined: 06/09/2011
Posts: 246

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 18:29

Stay in Spain ha ha ha.

bazzagirl


Joined: 09/05/2010
Posts: 525

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 19:21

yes please don't buy it will end in tears, rent firsst so you can weigh up the situation. x

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 19:28

If you want to buy your TC partner a property, as it sounds as though you're 'holding the purse strings', be VERY aware that you, as a foreigner, can only have residency on a renewable annual basis. Therefore, if anything should go wrong with your relationship, causing a split-up, you have NO rights if you purchase a property and put it in your partner's name. In other words, you will be forced to gift the property you have paid for to your partner. I have lived here a long time and witnessed this very same scenario in Cyprus time without number!



Another small matter is: will your TC partner be requisitoned for TRNC national army service not long after his arrival here? I'm not sure how long he is allowed to stay without being dragged off, but I don't think it's long! You may be able to pay for his exemption, but that's not cheap!



My advice would be to stay put where you are and avoid the inevitable 'problems'.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 20:27

Visitor:

"The logic behind pre 74 titles is to prevent the loss of these properties from the TCY community. Too many were being sold to foreigners. Its difficult for TCYs to argue and negotiate on ownership of the island if the reality is that what they legally ( international) own is under 20%."



It would be nice if the Government admitted this rather than allow folk to pay in full then find out. Thank you for pointing this out. I understand their motives entirely but why such a covert policy?

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 20:39

Bradus good question. I suspect its because they don't want to acknowledge officially the scale of the problem.

Deniz1


Joined: 28/07/2009
Posts: 3829

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 21:01

I have bought two houses built on exchange land got my PTP no problem and the deeds. I have sold them both with no difficulty either.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
17/09/2011 21:46

Deniz1



are you a TC?

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 08:07

Thank you all for your replies esp Visitor for your candour re the motives ;o) I too understand the reasoning but in the short term, is the government doing itself any favours?!

I'm certainly not holding the purse strings lol...ideally we would buy any property 50/50...or it even may come down to my TC partner putting in the whole 100%! I'm certainly not intending to "gift" anything to anyone! I do hear what you're all saying re renting. I advise people similarly here in Spain ;o)

We know about the national service thing and understand that my OH could buy himself out of that for 4k, if it comes to it (he's presently 47 and we believe the age limit is 50?). Would him getting his Kimlik card (thus enabling him to buy property) immediately mean that he is eligible/liable...or does it hinge on actually moving there permanently?

Can anybody tell me if it's possible to get annual residency WITHOUT owning or renting a property in one's own name?

Thanks again.

Deniz1


Joined: 28/07/2009
Posts: 3829

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 08:12

Msg 15 no only by adoption!

Deniz1


Joined: 28/07/2009
Posts: 3829

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 08:16

Msg 16 it is possible if you can get some one to give you a letter saying you are their permanent guest ( not paying rent) . The letter has to be stamped by a notery. My friend does this every year and doesnt have a problem. He doesnt have a contract for his home.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 11:39

Dimmock firstly apologies for the daft stereotypes some members have abt Turkish Cypriots and Mixed relationships.



The kimlik card does not make him eligible for NS. If he overstays 90 days or moves permanently then he becomes eligible and must pay the 4k.



Your best bet I think would be to say your in a long term relationship and your engaged. Engagements can last a life time in TRNC. That would probably make the residency part easier for you.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 12:11

Visitor/Msg 19:



There's certainly no need to apologise on my behalf - take off your blinkers, because the statistics speak too highly for themselves.



Dimmock has a right to know what she might be letting herself in for, and I have a right to post facts, which obviously conflict with your misplaced nostalgic and Utopian views of the realities in TRNC.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 12:21

Its not me who needs to take 'off the blinkers' but you could start by taking off that stupid mask!



I didn't realise you maintained statistics on the success of mixed relationships. I am in a mixed relationship and know many other successful mixed relationships. Keep your nasty racism to yourself. I have no objections to your warning people as good and bad are everywhere. But your animosity and bile is directed at certain groups and I happen to be Turkish Cypriot.



If you hate Turkish Cypriots so much ( borne out by your constant negative postings) why do you stay.

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 12:47

Thank you all again, I'm starting to get a clearer picture.

Please don't start a domestic on my account re mixed relationships lol.

This possible move is still very much at the early planning stages and we have a great deal to sort out here in Spain first, including getting rid of/renting out several properties (not easy!) and we also have a couple of elderly dogs that we want to allow to live out their last year or two here without putting them through the stress of moving.

Anybody care to comment on my perceived observation that house prices seem quite inflated in TRNC? Here in Spain, as you may know, the market is saturated with properties for sale, developers are desperate to shift their ugly, box-like new-builds, banks are not lending, properties are being repossessed and the market is totally stagnant. If you are in the fortunate position of having cash, it is a real buyer's market right now. Is it the same over there? Or not? Yet ;o) How do things FEEL?

Thank you all so much

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 12:58

Prices are inflated especially for exchange properties. Cash its an obvious advantage. There are many new builds, many are brookside type estates. I would go at least 25% under the asking price. Ian smith agency seems good they have lots of traditional character properties. Also if your partner has family, TCYs often sell through networking. Good luck.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 13:07

I think house prices in the TRNC are low in comparison to the rest of Europe. Where else can you pick up apartments for under £50000 and villas with pools for under £100000?



Spain does have some real bargains and with the newly introduced laws that make buying safer, it is seeing more interest in comparison to other Med resorts. However it is still not as cheap as the TRNC and Turkey.



The TRNC property market is cheap for a very good reason........................will you continue to own the property or will it eventually revert back to the original GC owner? Will you be part of any compensation settlement? It is also very easy to sell pre 74 cheaply to foreigners, knowing you will continue to own it, because they won't get PTP.



I suppose this depends on how much faith you have in Turkey, TRNC, ROC and the EU.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 13:36

Interesting article abt property prices in the ROC



3 bed villa for 1.85 million?



http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/ef2eebfc-d55a-11e0-bd7e-00144feab49a.html#axzz1YIaTEV3A

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 13:39

Visitor - the link http://www.hbpg-trnc.net/documents/purchaseguide_updated.html that you provided on another thread is great.

Hypothetically speaking then, if we found a pre-74 foreign title deed property, had an offer accepted and paid a small deposit...I then apply for a PTP. If, as seems to be the case, this could take a year to be granted, during that year, what happens? Do vendors really have to be resigned to waiting that amount of time, in their "under offer" house, before the purchaser's PTP is granted? With their property no longer on the market? Because I sure wouldn't be handing over any more dough until the PTP was granted and the deeds could be transferred into my name, no matter how certain that a PTP would be granted. What's to prevent the vendor selling the house in the meantime to a purchaser who doesn't require a PTP? Do purchase contracts cover all this? Is the deposit refunded if a PTP is denied?

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 13:45

Hi Dimmock - my suggestion would be to contact the 'homebuyers pressure group'. They seem to have the latest advise. My situation was straight forward as I did not have to apply for PTP and I got the deeds within weeks.





Tel: 00 90 533 876 3780



e-mail:



marian.hbpg@gmail.com

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 13:54

You would be expected to pay in full for the property prior to getting PTP. It is more likely to be 2 years rather than 1.

Mine, which was refused eventually, took 5 years.



No builder will wait 2 plus years whilst you get PTP.The legal system is UNBELIEVABLE and set up for failure from the start.. You have to research some of peoples experiences before you can appreciate this medieval, outdated legal system. A good start would be HBPG website. Read the case studies.

gillken


Joined: 25/05/2008
Posts: 521

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 14:07

Hi In your postion I would not advise you to go for Pre 74 Turkish title. You will not get your permission. Also you will still need to wait for the permission to come through before completing the paperwork, which takes 6 months or more.



If you are certain that you want Pre 74 Turkish Title..Then put the whole property in your partners name and be prepared to walk away with nothing if anything happens in the future. Better still you can always come to some legal agreement for this eventuallity.



There are so many properties to choose from... why not consider other land titles. What is so special about something you can't have when there is so many other Villas that you can successfully take title to?

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 14:39

Gillken, thanks but you misunderstand - I KNOW that Turkish title deeds are out of the question for me as things stand, which leaves us having to look for pre-74 FOREIGN title deeded property. Which, as I understand it, still requires any foreign purchaser to apply for and have to wait for a PTP.

(I fail to understand why estate agents are still pushing and marketing pre-74 Turkish title deed properties at foreigners...?! Not one website that I've seen mentions that a PTP is unlikely to be granted!)

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 15:06

if you are who you claim to be dimmock, you will have seen a number of postings

describing the serious disadvantages of attempting to buy advertised " turkish title" property

as compared to run-of-the-mill exchange property



...I would be very happy to go through all the arguments again, should you so choose

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 19:51

Well, 'Visitor' - it appears 'Gillken' agrees with me - go figure!



As for my diving mask, I have far greater peripheral vision with it than you do with your pair of 'Utopian Blinkers'!

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 20:35

I wasn't talking abt your diving mask -- No you misunderstood, I meant your face!



Go figure!



Sorry I am not prepared to comment on other peoples postings. Your postings however are just anti Turkish and Turkish Cypriot. Keep them up as I have quite a collection..

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 20:47

It must be awful for you Tenakoutou living in a place that you just hate so much and surrounded by all those

foreign types. I guess for you Cyprus would be much nicer without the Cypriots. Maybe someone will buy your house for a knock down price and you can return to New Zealand and hound the poor Maori's.

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 21:11

@andres514, message 31..."run of the mill exchange property"...I'm sure this is less complicated to buy and that there is a surfeit of it...but apart from that...what are its advantages? Are you saying that this type of property is guaranteed to be 100% safe to buy/own? Do TCs happily buy and sell exchange properties from/to each other?

I am not sure what you mean by your comment "if you are who you claim to be..."? Is this one of those forums where every newbie is treated with suspicion?!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
18/09/2011 23:25

dimmock,



you raise some interesting points and I will reply in detail to your well-informed postings tomorrow



andre

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 02:23

dimmock,



you do not say whether you have ever been to the trnc

but if you discussed living here with any ex-pat

it would quickly be apparent there are sometimes

serious problems, despite the unique charm of the place



crooked and devious lawyers and builders

poor construction standards

difficulties of redress if legal remedy is sought

general laid-back and "manana" attitudes

dangerous driving

poisoning of dogs, cats etc

lack of direct flights due to continuing blockade



regarding reliable title as advertised, and seeking

to be "100% sure" of property rights ...this is often

a pipedream as far as europe to south and east

is concerned



yet there are some amazing cash bargains here

...if you can find a reliable lawyer!



spain has 1.6m unsold properties,

and ex-pats run foul of bonkers planning changes:

a friend lost her savings there wnen the developer

failed



there is now unlikely to be a reunification with

south cyprus,

but if so, "exchange" would lea

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 02:24

...would leap in value



is that possiblilty "worthwhile" enough for you?

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 11:17

You have the audacious temerity to advise forum readers to invest in TRNC while simultaneously referring them to ‘links’ containing cautionary advice – amazing duplicity!

‘Running with the hare and hunting with the hounds’ immediately springs to mind!

As for calling me ‘vile’, perhaps you will be prepared to translate [from Turkish into English] the exact meaning of ‘tenekteboku’ – the word you have addressed me with on numerous occasions.

Clearly, you are smarmily smirking to yourself that CY44 ‘Mods’’ knowledge of Turkish is insufficient to be aware of such vulgarity. However, as I have already informed you, but you chose to ignore, I have many TC friends. When I posed the question to them concerning the level of intended insult you used to address me, their response was: ‘Which gutter has this ‘Charlie’ crawled out from? – We certainly don’t want his type coming back to KKTC!’

So, Simbas, or ‘elko 2’, or any other ‘Mod’ reading this posting – before lambasting, or banning me,

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 11:35

Fascinating! I suggest you re visit your own history of offensive posts and insults before criticising others.

If you cannot take it don't give it out.



I have no objection to you criticising the system. I agree with condemning corruption and abuse and warning people abt the pitfalls. At the end of the day you need to be wise as to where your moving. TRNC for us Turkish Cypriots is far better then what we had before, living in enclaves, inter communal violence, missing persons, oppression. For Gods sake its an unrecognised state, existing from day to day on handouts. Your problem is that you judge all the Turkish Cypriot people rather then the minority that are responsible.



I wonder what your friends more like acquaintances, who did you ask lets guess, the waiter in a restaurant or a neighbour. What would they think if I showed him all your offensive comments abt his people.



Charlie

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 13:37

@andres514, thanks. All those problems (bar the lack of direct flights) exist here in Spain too. I work in the construction/property industry as an independent building surveyor so have first hand knowledge of what goes on. As for Spanish lawyers - worthless! Gave up with them years ago and now do my own conveyancing etc but then here that's possible as everything is publicly available online.

As you say, the concensus is that reunification is unlikely to happen (not in my lifetime anyway) and so taking a punt on exchange property in the hope that it will leap in value seems a very long shot.

I would hope that my OH's family connections (inc a lawyer somewhere in the extended family) would at least give us an advantageous starting point that would minimise the chances of falling foul of potential problems but I take nowt for granted!

besides, whether we "invest" there or not, the reality is that at some point my OH will inherit a property there that will have to be dealt with...

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 13:57

thanks for the reply dimmock,



as warren buffet said,

the successful investor is fearful when others are are brave,

and daring when others are frightened:

the general idea being cheap when the market is at the bottom



...well that's the theory



by the way what is a "kimlik"? you seem to know a lot already

Dimmock


Joined: 15/09/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 14:16

It was another poster (Visitor) who referred to the kimlik - it is the TRNC ID card/number I believe, and I had to look up the word myself!

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 16:26

Re. Msg 40:



Now you’re starting to sound more reasonable – even conciliatory! I haven’t been in Cyprus for thirty years without seeking in depth knowledge of the rights and wrongs committed by both sides. My sympathies have always lain with the Turkish Cypriots and still do. Regrettably, too many of your countrymen have so tarnished the reputation of the TRNC as to have currently reduced the building and real estate sector to virtually nil. Do you admit that rapaciousness, coupled with the lawlessness has been the main contributory factors?



So, I ask you, what chance has the MNCB group have in persuading the ‘powers that be’ to institute the necessary changes, considering that HBPG have repeatedly tried their utmost and failed – all due to shall we say ‘too many conflicts of interest within the ‘Rich Club’?

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 16:42

No I agree with your assessment of 'rapaciousness and lawlessness'. Its a historic condition and sadly a pervading factor. However I feel its an 'affliction of a minority' in an otherwise decent population of people.



The only thing that will constitute change is in my opinion is to bring the TRNC into mainstream institutions i.e. The EU, Council of Europe, European courts- where at least there is some redress for the aggrieved. That and re-unification with the south. Perhaps a pipe dream - I hope not ?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 17:13

visitor,



why is it your "pipe dream" to have the south take over north cyprus?

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 17:25

Its not my pipe dream for them to take over! But I do support reconciliation. Many Turkish and Greek Cypriots

do. Equally many do not. In the UK for example you will find many Pan Cypriot organisations. Youth, womens, elderly groups. The problem is our leaders do not have the courage or the desire to move things forward.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
19/09/2011 19:09

The 'leaders' DO NOT WANT any change - period!



It's too convenient & cosy as it is!