Joint Statement to Northern Cyprus Regarding Arrests Under Article 17

passionflower


Joined: 20/09/2011
Posts: 168

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 12:21

On 14, 15 and 16 October 2011 two groups of men were arrested in the Northern Cyprus under Article 171 of the 1929 Criminal Code, which criminalizes male homosexuality. Article 171, brought in under British colonial rule, is the only legal provision in force in Council of Europe territory that criminalises consensual adult male same-sex sexual activity and provides for a punishment for up to five years in prison.



more here ► http://bit.ly/uQBcHq

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 14:26

Whats the council of europe got to do with north cyprus? If its the law its the law you obey them or live somewhere else.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 15:27

Cavalryman is right. You have to abide by the rules of The Country in which you reside.



I am afraid that you are going to "turn the other cheek.", on this one.



wyn

passionflower


Joined: 20/09/2011
Posts: 168

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 15:36

the word is it is going to be compulsory in the uk as of December 31 st 2011 .

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 18:44

passionflower,



If you are right, I guess that we are all going to have to turn the other cheek also.



Cameron is trying to turn back the tide of all the European legislation that does not reflect the views of the



average, right minded UK citizen. Now there is food for thought!



wyn

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 18:48

"Cameron threat to dock some UK aid to anti-gay nations"



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15511081

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 18:49

About time someone stood up for the ordinary, average, right minded UK citizen isn't it?



Good on him for trying to undo the damage that our Labour comrades inflicted upon us all.



Perhaps it will be a good place to live again someday?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 18:50

"Turkish Cypriot leader Dervis Eroglu has agreed to repeal a ban on homosexuality in the northern part of Cyprus."



http://www.theparliament.com/latest-news/article/newsarticle/turkish-cypriots-agree-to-repeal-ban-on-homosexuality/

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 18:55

erolz,



Guess its a case of "whatever floats your boat"



I am just a law abiding citizen following the laws of wherever I reside.



Just my views thats all.



wyn

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:01

Crimilisation of homosexuality in the TRNC is an anachronism. No country within Europe still has suh laws. Turkey does not have such laws. Such laws are in contravention of the ECHR charters, which Turkey as a member of the Council of Europe has agreed to and is bound by. Cameron is saying UK aid will be restricted to countries that still have such laws. THe TRNC government has said it will be repealing such laws soon.



There may be people who believe such criminalisation of homosexuality is right and should exist but thankfully they are not influencing law makers on such issues in Europe, Turkey or the TRNC. Homosexulaity will be decriminalised in the TRNC, bringing it in line with the rest of Europe, Turkey and ECHR charters and rightly so. To those that do not like this reality , tough.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:03

I thought arson was already a criminal offence in the UK!



wyn

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:05

No wynyardman, to me you are not just a law abiding citizen following the laws wherever you reside. You are also a participant on a public forum, choosing to espouse their personal views on a subject. Views that to me reflect little more than out dated prejudice, bigotry and intollerance. That is MY personal view.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:21

Sorry erolz,



I was bought up through Sunday school and the Methodist church.



I was taught that homosexuality was an abonimation and unnatrual.



I know all the words of John Wesleys hymns, and I am inspired by them.



Now, call me old fashioned, and I will tell you what I think is wrong in this world.



AS I KEEP SAYING Just my views, thats all.



wynyardman

BizziLizzi


Joined: 02/08/2011
Posts: 855

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:37

I am NOT going to get involved inthe homosexuality issue, but what strikes me is that since the European Union and the United Kingdom will not recognise North Cyprus they have no b................ right to dictate what it should or wouldnt do. It is a decision purely for the democratically elected Government of the TRNC and its citizens.



AS for Cameron the less of my hard earned income tax he gives away to ANYONE ANYWHERE suits me!

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:45

Flipping well said BizziLizzi, I too get fed up with all these so called handouts that I am paying for in my taxes...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:47

No need to appologise wynyardman. We have different views that is all. Yours is that homsexuality is an abomination and mine is that such is the view of an intollerant bigot. I am just thankful that those that make the laws in Europe and Turkey do not share your view on this subject.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:50

erolz.



I didnt and wont appologise.Homosexuality is unnatrual.



Now i dont explain and I dont complain. Comprende!



wyn

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 19:58

Forgive me Wynyardman, when your post started with 'Sorry erolz' I took that to be an appology of some sort. Obviously not the case and though you said 'sorry' you were not and are not 'sorry' at all it would seem.



I have no expectation that you will ever change your views, that I think are bigoted, nor your desire to publicaly declare them. Nor are you under any obligation to explain why you hold these bigotted views. However just as you are free to publicaly delcare them at any opportunity so to am I free to call them what I think they are, the views of intolerrance and bigotry that thankfully are not reflected in law (anymore) in countries in Europe or Turkey and hopefully soon in the TRNC as well.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:04

Erolz,



THE bible says its unnatrual. The TRNC says its illegal.



Now I accept that we live in a world of rapidly declining standards,...... but you cannot call it bigotry when



it is the law of the land. Being a law abiding citizen comes readily to mind.



wynyardman

jamestalbot


Joined: 20/12/2009
Posts: 958

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:07

message 11 wynyardman what a stupid joke, I see you still persist in pushing your religious views down our throats.



You say in message 13 "just your views" and then go on to say you know every word of John Wesleys hymns, sounds to me you are brain washed and using words from John Wesley and not your own.



You should look at the harm religion has done in the world, wars for the sake of religion, abuse by clerics etc.



I agree with Erolz you are a intolerant bigot.

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:16

ooops another mud slinging thread that starts off being sensible, then out come the abuse to members ...



Every one has their views, so why should Wyn not have his , so come on all of you, Im practically an atheist, but teetering on the edge.

Wyns entitled to his views on religion, even if you dont agree!



Its called freedom of speech ....

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:17

Wynyardman the bible says "You shall not round off the hair on your temples or mar the edges of your beard." Leviticus 19:27 and countless other things that you personaly choose to ignore. To me it seems thats you choose to ignore what the bible says when it suits you and present it as the word of god that can not be disputed or challenged when it suits your prejudices to do so.



In my personal opinion your views on homosexuality are bigotted. They are bigotted now with the current laws in the TRNC and they will still be so when the law is changed in the TRNC. What the law in the TRNC says does not make them any less bigoted in my view, nor will your bigottry be changed when the laws change.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:23

dizzycows I have repeatly said Wynyardman is entitled to his opinions and views and to express them here. Am I not allowed to call them (the views) biggoted if I think they are, to point out that they are not in line with law in Europe or Turkey or the ECHR if that is true ?



To paraphrase Edmund Burke 'all that is necessary for the triumph of intollerance and prejudice is that good people do nothing. Do not allow intollerance and prejudice to triumph. Do not do sit by and do nothing.'

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:24

Jamestalbot,



I go to great lengths to put ..."Just my views thats all". Now I would not call that pushing my religious views



down anyones throats, would you?



AS I KEEP SAYING if homosexuality floats your boat....so be it!



Personally I find buggery, sodomy and beastiality an abomination. So it appears do the legislature of the



TRNC. It is a public forum and I am entitled to my views.



I REPEAT...........JUST my views thats all.



wyn

jamestalbot


Joined: 20/12/2009
Posts: 958

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:39

Message 24 I accept you are entitled to your views, but so am I .





I just find find your constant quoting of religious text and your religious views annoying, why don't you let people live their lives, how they want to, I like a drink I suppose that is an abomination as well.



I have better things to do in my life than waste my time on people like you.



Just my view

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:42

Indeed Wynyardman you do keep saying "if homosexuality floats your boat....so be it!"



What actualy 'floats my boat' is challenging intollerance and prejudice and bigotry.

jamestalbot


Joined: 20/12/2009
Posts: 958

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:43

wynyardman just has a final note I do not intend to continue to this discussion with you any further, so thanks for your views, but I cannot accept them.





James

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:48

dizzycows, I haven't yet seen anyone in this thread claim that wynyardman ISN'T entitled to his views on religion! What in fact is occurring here is simply a robust debate, and something else I haven't yet noticed is any "mud-slinging" or "abuse to members". If you are offended by what you read, don't read it...just exit the thread.



Calling someone an intolerant bigot may be tautological, but it isn't abuse - it's simply an opinion expressed in forthright terms. As it happens, I agree with erolz...wynyardman certainly is bigoted about homosexuality, for he clearly holds a strong opinion about this group of people and doesn't seem to want to listen to any contrary opinions. That in fact is the dictionary definition of bigotry.



That he relies on the bible to prove anything is not a logical argument, and he seems not able to understand that bigotry can only apply to people, not 'the law of the land'. I wonder how many lands still maintain homosexuality is illegal.

ang1706


Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 570

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 20:48

I just find it Bizarre that the TRNC Government chooses to accept this law from Europe and British Law, I am a bit confused or is it a case of 'cherry picking'! as to which Law to use!!



Cannot beleive for one minute that its on the Law Statute Books that a Builder gets into debt and the innocent homeowner who has fulfilled their part of the Contract is punished by threat of Eviction. Which Law is that TRNC Government!!

dizzycows


Joined: 12/05/2009
Posts: 2736

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 21:22

rottolover... do as you say then, don't read my posts! Easy.....

Erkin


Joined: 15/06/2011
Posts: 339

Message Posted:
31/10/2011 22:51

Erolz I don't know why you bother with people like "wynyardman" he is just trying to have is own sins forgiven before going to the pearly gates. The church this church that, He never ever mentions about how much the church has paid over the last 10 years to children whose life the church has ruined by the molesting clergies, who couldn't keep their hands to themselves.

He hasn’t learnt yet not to throw stone at glass building. I am very interested to know who was shagging who when the bible was being written in order for the bible to make such statements.



He expects everybody to be like him all good and proper until he gets a fews pints down his gob then hands going where they shouldn't be



G.A.Y = Good as YOU

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.



Some people are proud to stand up and say I am what I am, and I am one of these people, HAPPY TO BE GAY AND DON'T GIVE 2 HOOTS TO KNOWES.

bertieboss


Joined: 22/07/2011
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 02:38

Methinks wynyardman "doth protest too much"!!!

Bible thumping has always been a favourite pass time of the flat earth society.

Just ignore them!!!

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 10:11

Could never understand where the term gay came from i thought it was homosexual Erkin i have certainly met a few miserable ones over here.

Erkin


Joined: 15/06/2011
Posts: 339

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 12:16

Cavalyyman have not met any miserable hetrosexuals in life.

foxylad


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 12:45

If we are to accept all sexual orientations and relationships as normal and equal the there are problems ahead , in the UK close relatives marrying & having children in north Yorkshire is resulting in blind deaf& severely disabled children being born in very large numbers.



ARE PETS GOING TO BE SAFE ? as it may be your human right to " FAMILY LIFE " with your pet.



Just where does society draw the line ? or do we abandon all disciplines and have a free for all ?

Erkin


Joined: 15/06/2011
Posts: 339

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 16:44

What ever foxlad, I can not be arsed dealing with backwood people who are narrow minded.



At the end of the day TRNC will chance its rules and that's for the good of the gays here, not everything in life needs to be based on hetrosexuals life.



Abandon what disciplines? just bacause gay will get their way in changing the law.



An outdated law left behind by the british in the 60's. and now time to move on.

cavalryman


Joined: 08/11/2010
Posts: 314

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 18:53

Just asked why you picked the word gay Erkin most of the ones I know call themselves poofs and great friends I might add.But they are the ones you would not think are as you say gay.They actuaally do not like the effeminate ones.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 19:24

Sad,



If thats all you can throw up, then I wouldnt bother.



1 Try to follow biblical teachings.

2 Have a view, but do not push it down peoples throats (My view that is all)

3 Abide by the laws of the Country in which you reside.



Now what is wrong with that? Guess you guys have a better way! Bigotry, I will show you bigotry!



wynyardman

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 20:15

Wynyardman I ask again why do you not follow the 'biblical teachings' found in Leviticus 19:27 that say

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard"



You yourself clearly do not follow all biblical teachings. That you insist they should be followed when such insistance reinforces your own prejudices and requires nothing from you personaly in terms of effort or sacrafice but seemingly ignore other 'biblical teachings' when it suits you to do so makes it look like you are a hypocrite to me. If you were a mormon and lived as they do, then whilst I would disagree with your views on homosexuality, I would respect that you have them because of 'biblical teachings'. When you just pick and choose 'biblical teachings' at will, accepting them when they reinforce your own prejudice whilst ignoring others as suits you, it is not a 'reason' I can respect but just a lame excuse, as I see it.

foxylad


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 20:18

so next it is ok to have it away with your sister yoiur donnke your mates 10 year old son because every one else is a bigot ?



just where is the line drawn ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 20:27

foxylad you are just talking nonsense. The decrimilisation of homsexuality, as has happened in all European countries, and Turkey and many other countries besides, has nothing to do with having it away with your sister, your donkey or your mates 10 year old son. That you link these things is just evidence of your own prejudice and lack of understanding in my opinion. What decrimilisation of homosexulity is about, is ending legal persecution of indivduals because they are 'different'. Yes society should have laws and those laws should protect people not persecute them.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 21:17

erolz,



As my mother (now deceased) would have said. You would argue with your finger tips.



I outlined where I come from in Msg 38.. I do not seek to criticise your outllook on life and I would like to be



able to hold my own views. I say AGAIN every time I post....."Just my views, thats all".



Having my own views on a matter is not bigotry. Its just MY VIEWS Now why dont you give it a rest?



wynyardman

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 21:52

Wynyardman by saying that homsexuality should be a criminal offense, you criticise large numbers of peoples outlook on life and say their outlook should be a criminal offense. You are happy to do this to large numbers of other people but are not happy if it is done to you in response ?

To say 'it is not biggotry it is just my view', is nonsense. You may just as well say, arguing that women are inferior to men and should not have equality in law is not sexism its just my view.

As to giving it a rest, every single one of my posts have been a REACTION to your own posts. If you were not so keen to publicaly broadcast your own views on this subject then I would not need to challenge those views.

You want to be able to broadcast your biggoted views, yet you want no one else to challenge them is how it seems to me. Why do you not give it a rest ?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 21:55

erolz,



Watch my lips......GO AWAY.



wyn

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 21:57

Laws have to be obeyed

right or wrong

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 21:59

Wynyardman, do you have some right or authority which I am unaware of that gives you licsense to post anything you like on this forum but tell others they can not do likewise in response to your posts ? Some divine right perhaps ?



I will not 'go away' I am afraid. I have as much right as anyone else to offer my views on this forum as you.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:04

Philbailey no one is talking about breaking laws, the discussion is about reforming laws. The current laws in the TRNC that effectively make homosexuality a criminal offense are out dated and in need of reform. The EU thinks this, the UK thinks this the CoE thinks this and the current government of the TRNC has publicaly stated they also think this and are in the process of amending such laws. When that is done there will still be people comming onto these forums claiming homosexulaity is 'unatural and against the terachings of the bible' as they have every right to do and I will still challenge such views as biggotry as I have every right to do.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:07

Well msg 47

the EU and the UN do not except the trnc

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:10

erolz,



Msg 46.



Then play the ball, not the player. Comprende!



wyn

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:19

philbailey so what ?



Wynyardman I have consistently challenged your arguments and not attacked you as an indivdual. Have you looked at your own behaviour and asked am I playing the ball or the player ? How is 'go away' playing the ball ? How is 'why dont you give it a rest' playing the ball ? How is 'if [homosexuality] floats your boat' playing the ball ?



You have every right to choose to proactive post here that homsexulaity is unatural and against the teachings of the bible and should be criminal in law. I have every right to challenge such views, to challenge how consistently you follow the teachings of the bible when you claim this is why you hold these views and to point out that its current criminal status in an anachronism in not just my view but even the view of the current government and opposition in the TRNC.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:27

Msg 50, you said the EU...etc

the country is not recognsed

cake and eat it springs to mind

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:30

erolz



Homosexuality is unnatural. The purpose of sex is to procreate.



I have to tell you, in case you didn't notice, that you can't procreate by buggering another man.



Can't be done, sorry.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:34

philbailey my point was that the discussion was not about breaking the law, as you seemd to think it was with your post msg45, but about reforming the law. The point is that Turkey thinks the current TRNC law is in need of reform and it DOES recognise the TRNC, the TRNC government and opposition have both stated publicaly that the law should be reformed and they recognise the TRNC. The UK thinks that countries that criminalise homsexuality should change their laws, recognised or not and is looking at restricting aid to countires that do not reform such laws. The council of euprope that recognises the trnc as an agent of Turkey in terms of human rights thinks the law should be reformed. Non recognition does not change any of the points I have made. Nothing to do with cake and eating it. Everything to do with supporting the argument that the law is outdated and in need of reform is widespread view of many entities.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:45

KarmaSooty1 the argument that the only purpose of sex is procreation is to me risible. You may just as well claim that masturbation is 'unatural' and thus should be criminalised in law. Or that HETROSEXUAL anal sex is unatural because you can not procreate via it and thus should be criminal, or that you can not procreate having sex using contraception and thus it is unatural and contraception should be criminalised. The whole argument is clearly nonsense as far as I am concerned.



The irony of someone who uses a forum name 'karasoooty1' claiming that the purpose of sex is procreation is not lost on me either.

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:47

erolz



What's it like to be completely wrong?

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 22:52

and



Karma (Sanskrit: कर्म IPA: [ˈkərmə] ( listen);[1] Pali: kamma) in Indian religions is the concept of "action" or "deed", understood as that which causes the entire cycle of cause and effect (i.e., the cycle called saṃsāra) originating in ancient India and treated in Hindu, Jain, Buddhist and Sikh philosophies.[2]



and Sooty is a glove puppet



so I fail to see the connection!



Perhaps you could explain.

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 23:27

Erolz, please ignore such bigots. It is exhausting. I totally agree with you. People have no right to judge others on how they choose to live. Religion causes so many problems because of misinterpretation and people DO pick and choose what bits they like and what bits they don't. People seem to do this in lots of religions. Some people simply won't listen to other people's views. It's sad to know that even in this day and age people are judged on their sexual orientation.



Angela

shrimp


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 939

Message Posted:
01/11/2011 23:39

What I dont understand is why gays have to shout about their rights from the roof tops, you have all sorts of gay clubs and associations for all manner of things but you dont have the same for hetrosexuals.........It seems they want to brag about their sexual orientation whilst hetrosexuals do not feel the same need.......why??

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:07

AngelaT



Who draws the line? Answer that, who draws the line? Me, you, the Muslims, the Buddists, The Roman Catholics, The Mormons, erolz, the UK law, Louisiana Law, Japanese Law. You would be shocked at what is considered Ok in different jurisdictions and cultures.



Because we don't want to be bigots in anybodies eyes, especialy yours we take it that whatever is allowed anywhere is OK. We have to following the logic So now men can have sex with:



Women over the age of 14, female goats (in Sudan) , other men, ducks, donkeys (in Mexico), (once saw a show in Acapulco with girls and donkeys) that's ok isn't to you non bigots ( I walked out), Chimpanzees, little boys, cats, dogs, kangaroos (aborigines) must be hard work, horses, cows, sheep in Wales and so on. Once sex is relegated to being just entertainment for non bigots than everything is OK. Or, is it just for heteros' and homos' and leave the animals alone. You tell me. maybe Sudan has it. It's ok to roger female anima

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:08

Shrimp this whole discussion on the forum was a result of an arrest of several indivduals in the TRNC using an out of date law. Before this there was no 'gays' shouting about their rights on the forum, no bragging about their sexual orientation. Hetrosexuals do not need to fight for their right to not be descriminated against because they are not discriminated against. It is not just that the law is out of date and unfairly prejudice against one part of the community, it is insidious as well in that it allows and supports an encorages a wider prejudice in society in general that leads to abuse, presecution, marganilsation and in its worst extremes physical violence aginst these groups. For the record, not that it is relevant, I am personaly not gay, but I do oppose persecution and oppression of people based simply on their sexual orientation and for me that is what this issue and discussion is about.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:19

KarmaSooty1 once again your whole argument is spurious. The line is quite simple and obvious, and it is to do with consent. Animals can not consent to such things. Children do not have the experience or ability to understand what it is they may be consenting to. Adults who choose to live their life in a particular way, without harm to anyone else should not be persecuted in law or society in general just because they are different from a larger majority who do not choose to live that way.



That you can find odd examples in law in places like Sudan and Mexico does not change the fact that the list of countires where such discriminatory laws have been removed is vast. Before long the TRNC will I am sure also join this group and end this historic discrimination in law which in turn will help to reduce it in society and start to reduce the real suffering caused to people by such discrimantory laws and attiudes.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:21

erolz, you sat next to me not so long ago and told me that you would not come back to this forum because you always get dragged into disputes, that's not important to this point however so I will get to the point I would like to make.

You state that this arrest is an out of date law, for someone who is so adamant about following and defending the truth, I would like to ask what makes this law out of date with regard to the TRNC. It has only just been announced that this law will be reviewed, until now it is still a law, not a choice of whether you wish to follow the law or not but a law.

Having lived in a country where I was almost arrested for kissing my wife in public whilst men could easily walk together holding hands because the laws of that country do not recognise homosexuality but do find public affection between a heterosexual couple to be illegal, I find it unfair that any one should use the argument that an out of date law in one country should be ignored

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:34

It is out of date in that it is a hang over from a British colonial law from the 50's or earlier. It is out of date in the sense that in every other country not just in the EU but also all members of the CoE and many more places besides such laws have been ammended. It is out dated in that it clearly is not compatible with the ECHR charters, which has jusrisdiction in the TRNC and precedent over the TRNC local laws on matters concerning human rights.



If I lived in a country that persecuted and discriminated in law hetrosexuals, merely because they were hetrosexual, I would call such laws out dated and call for them to be ammended. I do not. I live in and am a citizen of a country, all be it a non recognised one, that has laws that discriminate against homosexuals merely because they are homosexual and thus I call those laws out dated and call for them to be ammended.



I have never said the law should be ignored. I am saying it should be changed.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:46

I did try and explain this to you when we met but I will openly admit that my personal anger against you did not help my point however I have spent quite some time reflecting on my attitude then and now and hope that I am a little more amicable so here goes. I understand your adamant enforcement about the truth and honesty should be paramount and I applaud your attempts to persevere in this however you do need to (in my opinion) consider the comprehension and understanding of the subject before deciding the truth.

I have no opinion of the subject at hand but I do have an opinion of whether we should follow the laws of the country we abide in and as much as you try as an individual to support the gay community that you are not a member of (I have actually met you and don't believe you are gay) I think that you are trying to gain support that you are a nice guy rather than actually believe what you have stated.

Law might be out of date but it is law, good or bad, it is law.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:46

Maybe they could change the law

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 00:55

The law should be changed (opinion), the law will be changed (prediction).



Proger1 you can make and assert and imply that my views on this matter are not ones of personal conviction but merely my attempt to be seen as a 'nice guy' but they do not change the arguments as I see them whatever my motivation may be.



Once more, am I saying or have I EVER said people should just ignore the laws they do not like ? No I do not say this. Am I arguing here that the current law in the TRNC that criminalises homosexuality should be changed ? I certainly am, fro a number of reasons. Am I conviced by the arguments against such a change presented so far. No I am not. Not the argument that 'god' says we must have this law nor the argument that if we do, it will lead to legalised bestiality and sex with children. If there have been other argumetns as to why the law should not changed I must have missed those and would listen to any presented.

proger1



Joined: 18/04/2009
Posts: 2919

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 01:12

erolz, as per normality of your statements, I can do many things that you can rephrase to your purpose so I will try to phrase this in a way that is not repeatable in anything but its true attempt,l ,my apologies to anyone who can be offended by my following comments but any attempt of mine to make a straight comment that is not considered crude is always twisted by those who feel the need to be superior.

In my experience there are 3 differential types, those who are gay but want to live there lives privately, those who are gay and want the world to be aware of every moment, usually because they are just trying to be different and those who are not actually gay, they just feel that they need to be included in every situation because it might be important some day.

Anything I may say after this point would sound offensive so I will not, what I will say is simple, if you want advice about online or internet issues, ask Erol.

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 01:13

Erolz



Sophistry won't work. You deliberately misinterpret my argument. My point was "Whose standards do we apply" Yours, mine, the Mormons or the people in Sudan who say it is OK to Roger a female goat but not a male one.



You ask about informed consent. Can a goat give informed consent. Well, I suppose it depends how much racket it makes and whether it comes back for more.



Who sets the standard. Well, I'll tell you. I set my standards just as you set your standards. And by my standards men running around rogering other men is neither acceptable nor particularly hiegenic, healthy nor beneficial to society.



Just because you think it's OK because people should be free to do what they want doesn't make it OK. There are plenty of things I would like to do which are not OK either morally or legally so I don't do them.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 01:47

proger1 I am not concsiously trying to twist what you are saying nor to be superior. I am arguing that the current law should be changed. You were talking about what my motivation for arguging that might be. They are two different things. There is nothing I can say about my motivation so I 'll leave that to you to discuss as you like. I will stick to discussing if should the current law be changed or not and why.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 01:57

KarmaSooty in answer to your question "whose standards do we apply" the answer is legal terms is the ECHR standards as it is the highest judical body with both jurisdiction and means to enforce its rulings. Currently the TRNC laws are out of line with these standards and that is one of the reasons why the law should be ammended.



I am not claiming that derciminlising homosexuality is some sort of ultimate truth. I am saying that it is a law that does not protect people but in fact harms people. For that reason alone I would argue for it to be changed. In addition it is a law that is totaly out of step with both the rest of Europe and Turkey and is incompatible with ECHR charters which the TRNC, like it or not, is ultimately bound by.



You are free to set any standards you like. However when you argue in favour of a law that crimilises people simply because of their sexual orientation, you are seeking to continue the imposition of your standards on others. [cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 02:05

Decrimilisation would not affect you as an indivdual one iota, it would not limit what you could do, nor require anything of you. Leaving it crimilinalised does affect others negatively in fundamental ways, it limits their lives and ecnourages and supports discrimination and hatred against them.

foxylad


Joined: 01/11/2011
Posts: 56

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 07:55

erolz you missed my point all of the cases in my in my previous message would/ could result in prosecution ,



Yet you say " end legal persecution of indivduals because they are 'different" where should the line be drawn for people who chose want to be "different " ?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 08:10

foxylad I have already answered this but once more.



The line should be drawn based on what harm the act causes and if the act is consensual or not. That seems a pretty simple and straightforward 'line' to me. If as an adult I choose to sleep with a consenting man or a consenting woman makes no difference to either the parties involved or society in general. Either way I am causing no harm. This is not true in the other examples you cite.

Tenakoutou



Joined: 27/07/2009
Posts: 4110

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 09:39

KarmaSooty1/msg 68: 'You ask about informed consent. Can a goat give informed consent. Well, I suppose it depends how much racket it makes and whether it comes back for more.'



Our favourite Australian bard has some 'info' regarding 'consenting goats in private' - enjoy!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd1LZ_lKU6M



He also 'mentions' this 'keep it in the family activity' - choice or gross? - You decide!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk3Dt9HVDac&feature=related

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 09:42

erolz



The issue is not whether you "sleep with a consenting man" it is whether or not one or both buggers the other. No point in being mamby pamby about it is there now so stop tiptoeing round the issue



Indeed, it has no relevence, but there are many places where buggering women is illegal never mind men.



Mind you, I have no view on whether it is legal or not. It being legal doesn't make it right, either way it is an unnatural act.



...and there is no point in pursuing the spurious argument that it is genetic or whatever. If the tendency to bugger other men depended on it being genetic there would not be any homosexuals anyway as you can't procreate by buggery. It is simply something one particular group of inadequate people want to do.



By the way. Look what homosexuality led to in Srebrenica as one US general testified to congress, and I paraphrase. 800 Dutch "gay" "soldiers" in "hairnets smoking pot" stood and watched while 8,000 muslims were butchered. What a joke!

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 11:24

for the avoidance of any misunderstanding:



The joke is that these people were ever allowed in the army.

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 18:15

Message 59: Karmasooty!,



That is an impressive list you have compiled. You have obviously done some research. Surely you cannot compare beastiality with sexual relations between two 'consenting adults', though?



To answer your question on who draws the line: I simply don't know. I appreciate that everyone has an opinion on this. My own opinion is that if it is between two consenting adults and neither party is being hurt by this then what is the problem?



Angela

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 18:49

AngelaT



It's all a matter of opinion. If the parts of Sudan where Sharia law pertains say it's OK to roger a female goat but an offence punishable by death for rogering a male goat where does that leave us.



If what is between two informed consenting adults is OK - buggery?



By that argument anything two informed consenting adults do is OK So if one agrees to have his eyes gouged out - is that OK?



Would one be an offence and the other legal.



When it comes down to it sex is for procreation. The fact is that nature and evolution has made it enjoyable and entertaining so that people want to do it is all part of the plan to encourage more procreation . There is also a reward system for plants, fish, donkeys, viruses etc. to encourage procreation. The fact that the homosexuals have perverted the reward system so that they can bugger each other does not make it right.

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 19:15

Message 78: KarmaSooty1.



I respect your opinion. I just don't happen to agree with it. Lots of heterosexuals have sex purely for enjoyment without planning to pro-create. Is this perverting the reward system? Should this be illegal too?



Maybe you think I am wrong as I am not thinking down the lines of genetics and biology. I just think that whether you are gay or heterosexual you should have equal rights. Human Beings should not be told what other human beings they can sleep with. If they are both consenting adults then that's up to them.



I appreciate you don't agree with this but we are all entitled to our own opinmions.



Angela

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 19:40

Why should homosexuals have equal rights. They are not equal.



We are not talking about who sleeps with who. We are talking about who buggers who.

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 19:43

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buggery

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 19:45

KarmaSooty1,



We both have differing opinions. Let's leave it at that. All the arguments have already been covered on this thread. It is one of those sensitive issues that people will never agree on. Everyone has their own view of things.



Angela

KarmaSooty1


Joined: 29/09/2011
Posts: 91

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 19:52

It is not a sensitive issue.



It is about whether buggery is an acceptable activity whether it is a man or a woman or a goat on the receiving end.



By the way:





What do you call a sheep tied to a lamp post in Aberystwyth?



See down.











A leisure centre !!!!!!

AngelaT


Joined: 25/04/2011
Posts: 114

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 20:00

I have just seen the link. I haven't read it though. As I said...I am not contemplating biology, genetics or technical details. I'll just stick with my own opinion, thanks.



I liked the joke though Hope you haven't offended anyone

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 20:21

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread was addressed and no need for further posts.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
02/11/2011 20:22

This thread is now closed. Reason: Thread was addressed and no need for further posts.