A misuse of police powers ?

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:46

THE arrest yesterday of the Conservative immigration spokesman, Damian Green MP, is an extraordinary episode. Police detained Mr Green over a series of leaks from an alleged Home Office "mole". Ministers have denied any prior knowledge of the operation. If so, then this would appear to be a spectacularly ill-judged operation on the part of the Metropolitan Police.



The Home Office official concerned is presumably under investigation for breaches of the Official Secrets Act. Yet there was clearly never any threat to national security in the alleged leaks of material relating to immigration policy and indeed the material was in the public interest. So why did police use anti-terrorist powers to arrest Mr Green and search four separate locations simultaneously?



Ministers have been infuriated by apparent leaks from both the Treasury and the Home Office in recent years. For police to over-react in this way suggests that, while ministers may not have ordered this arrest, they encouraged

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:46

the Met to tackle the leaks with maximum force. It is a measure of the Met's political rudderlessness at the end of Sir Ian Blair's time in office that it did not resist such pressure.



Nor does the affair inspire any confidence in the Government's regular appetite for new, draconian anti-terror powers. This arrest, like that of peace protesters before it, suggests that the police either lack the wit to understand when to use such powers, or else simpy cannot resist the temptation to use them indiscriminately. They owe Mr Green an apology. And ministers, so fond of selective spinning of their policies, should learn to accept the obverse situation - occasional inconvenient leaks.



This is only the most alarming example of the politicisation of the police since New Labour came to power.



We have had chief constables recruited to ring round MPs urging them to vote with the Government for extending detention periods of suspects.



Police at Labour Party Conferences increasingly seem

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:47

to be taking orders from Labour Party officials rather than the other way around as evidenced by the police cautioning pensioner delegate Walter Wolfgang for some rather mild heckling.



We have had Tibetan protestors having their banners taken from them and police vans parked in front of them in The Mall so they could not be seen by the Communist President of China during his visit to London.

Uniformed police officers allow themselves to be used in photo-opportunities by Labour politicians.

When the author Lynette Burrows went on a BBC Five Live show to talk about civil partnerships and expressed her concern that the adoption of children by homosexuals was 'a risk', the following day Fulham police contacted her to discuss the 'homophobic incident' saying that homophobia is 'a priority crime'.



We have also seen a woman arrested for reading out a list of names at the entrance to Downing Street in a protest against the Iraq War.



If THE UK IS to remain a free society such inciden

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:48

If THE UK IS to remain a free society such incidents must stop







Police state supporting stalinist new labour ??

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:54

Isn't it a fact that the Politicians draw up the laws,the police enforce them and judges dispense them.



We pay their wages, so why can't they be answerable to us?

Hilltop



Joined: 28/04/2008
Posts: 636

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:54

Source please Nigel?

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 15:57

Yes I do have my sources



http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard



/



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/index.html

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 16:04

Nigel,

I particularly liked the question

"So why did police use anti-terrorist powers to arrest Mr Green and search four separate locations simultaneously? "

The answer is obvious: 'Because they could'

And they will continue to (mis)use these powers as and when it suits them for as long as they are allowed to get away with it.

Keith.

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 17:33

The 'who knew what when debate' is in full flow now and it will be interesting to see if Jacqui Smith survives this. GB and herself are saying they didn't know anything about this beforehand yet both Boris Johnson & David Cameron were forewarned - so who is telling the truth?!!! David Davis,will be raising some very specific questions in Parliament when it reconvenes next week.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 17:42

It's Lies,Lies,Lies. Damn Lies I tell you!

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 18:00

Whenever the Police are involved where a member of Parliament is concerned the Home Secretary must be informed beforehand as a matter of course. It beggars belief that Jacqui Smith claims not to have been and I await with interest the outcome of this action......one thing's for sure the Tories have got the Government on the hook on this one.

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 18:16

it GETS WORSE !!!!!!!!

EXTRAORDINARY details of the heavy-handed police operation against shadow immigration minister Damian Green were revealed this afternoon.



Nine counter-terrorism officers raided the MP's London home, frightening his 15-year-old daughter Verity and wife Alicia who were there.



Mr Green was seized at his constituency home in Ashford, Kent, and held at Belgravia police station for nine hours, only one of which was used to question him about his alleged crime - leaking information embarrassing to the Home Office.



As fury grew over the way an elected MP had been treated after helping to expose government blunders, the Evening Standard learned that when his Commons and constituency offices were searched his mobile phone, BlackBerry and computers were all removed for examination, complete with confidential files stored on them.His email account had been disabled. Messages were bounced back with the terse explanation: "Your message wasn't delivered because of sec

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 18:16

security policies."



A Tory source said angrily: "He cannot do his job, which means the voters of Ashford have been disenfranchised by the police."The affair was turning into the biggest row over Whitehall leaks since the prosecution of civil servant Clive Ponting in 1985, over leaks about the Belgrano sinking, and the jailing of Sarah Tisdall in 1983 for leaking secrets about US cruise missiles in the UK.



By contrast, however, the molehunt at the Home Office was for the source of a stream of stories that embarrassed the Government rather than threatened national security. They included that 5,000 illegal migrants had been cleared to work in security. Last week a junior Home Office official, aged 26, was arrested.Tory leader David Cameron said police and ministers had "serious questions" to answer, particularly about the use of counter-terrorism officers.David Davis, the former shadow home secretary, said Mr Green's job was exposing failures in the Government and that the arrest w

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 18:17

I feel a compensation case starting up. The Lawyers will be busy this week-end!

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 18:19

exposing failures in the Government and that the arrest was "reminiscent of Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe". He added that Winston Churchill relied on a Whitehall whistleblower to expose lack of preparedness before the Second World War. "If the police had applied these rules in the Thirties, Churchill would not have been Prime Minister - he would have been a prisoner," he said.



Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti said: "The fundamental duty of the Metropolitan Police is to protect Londoners from harm, not the Government from political embarrassment."Mr Green, 52, was finally released on unconditional bail shortly before midnight without charge but must return to face further questioning in February.The MP described his arrest as "astonishing". Speaking outside Parliament this morning he said: "I emphatically deny I have done anything wrong."



Some Tories suspected that the action was an attempt to intimidate other civil servants tempted to leak documents, especially from the Treasury whe

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
28/11/2008 18:26

And the Home Secretary wants to hide behind "This is a matter for the Police"!!!.......nothing to do with me guv......astonishing!!!

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 18:29

It's going to be a lively day in Parliament tomorrow when MP's will get their first opportunity to debate this matter. The Speaker of the House is to make a statement and no doubt there will be much discomfort on the Labour front benches. Expect to hear "Resign" from the opposition benches......a day of fireworks in the House....could be quite lively!!!

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 18:39

Makes you wonder if we live in a democracy, I find this latest incident very worrying, seems we are getting near to a police state, 1 cctv camera for every 14 citizens in uk, ...uk has 20% of the worlds cctv cameras.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 18:50

Best Police Force in the World.



Evening all.......

arrry



Joined: 19/08/2008
Posts: 1235

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 18:52

Warm night !!!

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 19:06

Good night for arresting a Tory!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 19:20

Heavyhanded and questionable tactics, but nowhere near as bad as Turkish/TRNC abuse of police powers. At least in the UK we can hold the police to account through elected officials on police boards. Whereas the Turkish army controls the TRNC police - meaning they are utterly unaccountable to the Turkish Cypriot people. Some democracy...

BillyB


Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 436

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 22:56

If Gordon Brown has stated he wasnt aware of it before hand, Surely it must be true as a politition would never lie.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 23:04

Billy,



Check this:



http://iaindale.blogspot.com/2008/11/perhaps-brown-should-be-arrested-too.html

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 23:09

Greasy Gordon, Im sure his supporters will run to his rescue.............again

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 23:28

I think Brown will live to regret the admissions he made on camera to that notorious kink n' coke merchant.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 23:29

I watched Jacqui Smith, the Home Secretary, being interviewed on the Andrew Marr's Sunday programme.



He asked he a direct question,



"Did you know that Damian Green was going to be arrested?"



She quietly said,"no".



"So you didn't know beforehand", he continued.



She made no comment, just sat there with a face that looked as though she had sipped a cup of cold sick.



Having interviewed many people infomally and under caution, I instantly recognized that expession.



She was lying and now was worried that it could be proved that she did know beforehand she was for it, that was a look of instant regret.



She should have been better prepared, if you are going to deny something, it should be plausable denial.



i.e. Don't tell me, then if they ask me, I can truthfully say, "I didn't know".



But she was too much of a control freak and had to know so she did and she lied.



Resignation coming up soon, Home Secretary job vacant.



Any takers?



Lem

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
02/12/2008 23:41

Whatever happened to old Boughie

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 10:11

msg22



Boring, boring, boring, yawn, yawn, yawn











PART OF POST DELETED WITHOUT FURTHER WARNINGS

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 11:29

You may not like PP's posting Gibson but it is a statement of fact.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 11:38

Give it a rest.

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 12:21

msg30



I don't agtree it's a fact at all. As usual no evidencs to support this statement

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 12:38

Ok Gibson, if you disagree that it's fact how about I ask you to provide the evidence to disprove the reality of the present situation? ...with apologies to Tiggy of course for prolonging this.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 12:57

Jimmyg,



I fear we may be waiting some time.

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 15:55

Jimmyg and THE ABLE SEAMAN





For a start where is your evidence that the Turkish Army controls the Police here? Proof needed if you and the ABLE SEAMAN can come up with any rather than spouting the usual hot air. I THE ABLE SEAMANS historical posting's are anything to go by there will be none other than that which his G.C. friends have told him to say.



As for the British Police they now seem to be accountable only to themselves and decide what they want to investigate unless it's at the behest of the Government (I know behest is a big word for you ABLE SEAMAN but try)





PART OF POSTS DELETED AS PREVIOUSLY WARNED -------- MODERATOR

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 17:08

Gibson - my usual hot air? I find that rather offensive given my postings to date on this thread in particular, and on the whole board in general. I was merely pointing out to you that PP was factually correct with regards to the Police in the TRNC. Let me ask you a question - who do you believe controls the Police in the TRNC? Given that yourself & PP both live there it's strange to find such divergent views.



With regard to your second point point about the UK police I happen to agree with you.

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
03/12/2008 18:08

Jimmyg



The hot air remark was aimed at the other party. However as you both state that your comment is factually correct I would ask that you provide evidence of this claim. If you make such a bold statement you must have facts. As i disbelieve this statement how can I provide proof of something that doesn't exist? It is clearly an impossibility. Whilst I would agree that the Police here are lazy I do not believe they are controlled by the Turkish Army. Proof please from you and THE (UNST)ABLE SEAMAN but I would suspect there will be none as usual!!!!!

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 09:35

ABLE SEAMAN





And still we are waiting !!!!!!!!

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 11:15

Gibson let me refer you to the following :



In March 2003 a TURKISH CYPRIOT called Ali Osman wrote an article in AFRIKA following the surrounding of his village by the Police and the subsequent beatings by them of certain residents. He wrote "Under whose command is the Police? Under the command of the security forces. Under whose command are the security forces and who is their Commander? He is a Turkish General and they are under the command of Turkey's general staff. The TRNC is under the command of the Generals of the State that keeps us under occupation"



More recently you may remember an incident a couple of years ago when a GREEK CYPRIOT member of the European Parliament, Marios Matsakis tore down a Turkish flag at a sentry post in Akincilar. UNFICYP & Turkish soldiers SENT police to the incident.



I repeat again Who do you think controls the Police?

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 13:14

Gibson, on second thoughts don't bother replying as my intention originally was not to become embroiled in a debate about the TRNC police. I simply responded to endorse PP's point, which I believe to be factually correct. If you don't agree I can live with that.

Back to the original point I await with interest Jacqui Smith's statement To Parliament this afternoon following Gorbals Mick's dismal performance yesterday.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 13:29

JimmyG,



Thanks for highlighting the Afrika piece which I hadn't read before. You can appreciate why the paper has attracted bombings and the arrest and intimidation of its staff by Turkish security forces and their local proxies when it goes with stories like that.



Anyway, back to our own Dixons of Dock Green...

elenia


Joined: 24/01/2008
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 14:02

'stalinist new labour'? Do you actually know anything about Stalin's regime? Or are you actually aware of opposition politicians being executed or sent to labour camps that no-one else knows about?



The issue isn't that he released leaks. He was/is being investigated for actually inciting the mole to reveal official secrets which carries a life sentence if found guilty. Perhaps information that could be used by terrorists wasn't leaked but the possibility was definitely there so yes I can understand why the anti-terrorism laws were invoked. It's also a fact that something similar happened to a Downing Street official during the cash for questions affair so I do not buy that this was anti-Tory.



Yes mistakes have been made with this situation (no search warrant being a huge one) but the whole thing is being turned into an anti labour debate - politicians need to look at their own policies and promote them rather than using these situations to tar other parties.

elenia


Joined: 24/01/2008
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 14:06

National security comes before pissing off an individual by inconveniencing them in my opinion. Ask yourself this question; if you were arrested falsely under the same circumstances would you get an apology? It's simply not the done thing and never has been so why all the hue and cry now? Why would they apologise to someone who is still on police bail?



These politicians need to grow the hell up. 'Apologise or we will disrupt the queen's opening of parliament' = dummies out the pram!



No politician should be above the law.

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 15:23

Elenia, can you clarify to whom your 1st question is directed ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 16:03

msge 33



The Turkish police may very well indeed be controlled by the military, but nobody here, in my view has supplied conclusive proof. As Gibson challenged PP's unsubstantiated assertion, it is not up to him to disprove PP's claim. That seems unfair to me.



msge 39



On your first point, this could easily have been written by someone who is anti authority, anti institution, opportunistic and with strong tendancies towards rebeliousness. These type of people exist everywhere, in every country. Do you feel that this might be the case?



On your second point, refering to the police seemed like the sensible option to me. Why make it a military matter. Is there more to this affair than you were able to state? I might be missing something?



We also need to remember that the vast majority of TC's support and favour their Police force. You will find reference to this at the Centre for European strategy policy website.

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 16:40

ILC I agree with the last point you make and I don't have a problem with the TRNC police.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 17:00

This gives a few hints as to which authorities could have been complicit in the murder of a Turkish Cypriot journalist. The final verdict was that although it couldn't be proved that TRNC security forces killed him, they didn't bother investigating it. Not much difference in my book





http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/11365

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 17:13

msge 47



Interesting article

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 17:18

Para 19 makes the point.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 17:24

ilc: "...by someone who is anti authority, anti institution, opportunistic and with strong tendancies towards rebeliousness."



Dictators throughout history have executed people showing any of the above traits. Are you suggesting there is something dangerous about being independent in thought or, persish the thought, "rebellious"?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 17:31

ILC,



Are people like this the "anti-authority" or "rebellious" types you mentioned? Because it certainly seems the fascist bully boys know how to assert their authority in north Cyprus:





Acts of this nature, aimed at putting immense psychological pressure on Turkish Cypriot progressives have taken place in many forms in the northern part of Cyprus in the past. There have been at least 31 bombings, 10 arsons, 4 gun firings and 1 murder with political motivations since Turkey intervened in 1974 and installed a huge military presence on the island with the alleged purpose of guaranteeing the safety of the Turkish Cypriots. Yet, the same power structure has more often than not been seen as the one solely responsible for various acts of oppression aimed at the progressive Turkish Cypriots who are working for the reunification of the island.

elenia


Joined: 24/01/2008
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 18:17

JimmyG my first question was addressed to the OP re his statement



'Police state supporting stalinist new labour ??'

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 18:41

Thanks Elenia, I missed that final sentence first time around so wondered who and what you were referring to.

elenia


Joined: 24/01/2008
Posts: 28

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 18:52

My apologies - I am more used to posting on forums where you can quote direct from the posts with the click of a button >.<

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 19:03

msge 50



Not at all. Rebelliousness is a vital function in the growth and development of any society or organisation.



It's whether the individual acting rebelliously demonstrates pre or post conventional ways of thinking. Often both types join together around a common cause, one type shows restraint and objectivity, often termed as emotional intelligence and the other shows very little impulse control.



The cause joins the two types together, but they are worlds apart in their emotional and cognitive maturity.



The article in reference to this tete a tete that we are having does not distinguish between pre and post conventional thinking.

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 20:29

msg45



Quite agree. Many hippies in England in the 60's and people in later decades accused the British Police of Facism. No proof but just because they felt like it.



I notice THE ABLE SEAMAN didn't come up with any proof either.



Now there's a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
04/12/2008 20:52

ilc,



I know the personality types you refer to, but would add there are no absolutes as they aren't clinical conditions. For example I'd be very annoyed if I thought I wasn't a bit of both.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
05/12/2008 14:51

msge 57



Are you sure we are comparing the same animal?



What do you know about these personality types? What makes you say you are post conventional?

newby07


Joined: 04/05/2008
Posts: 37

Message Posted:
05/12/2008 21:06

Is it not Bayram in London tomorrow? Will the MP's be working?

This corruption is exactly what we came to Cyprus to get away from. It's a shame that it is just as prevalent here.