The Euro is FINISHED

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 22:05

When heads of central banks state in public that banks need to prepare for the Euros collapse then the game is up

Dont wait for it to happen you will lose your money

Ditch your Euros and get ANY money you have in Eurozone banks OUT - These will be the first to go

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 22:22

Germany & France won't let it happen

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 22:32

Germany & France don't want to let it happen... being rich enough to stop it.... quite another matter. Printing money in such large quantities (which is in effect what will happen) may well cause hyper-inflation... not a pretty sight.

Who is all the debt owed to? What will they do if they don't get payment?

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 22:33

Turtle



Are you prepared to gamble YOUR money on that



Germany and France cant stop it from happening



When central banks start talking publicly about it the only thing left to decide is when and the markets will decide that



Just dont be caught holding euros when it happens

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 23:07

msge 2



I agree Turtle but it looks like a close call. Looks like everyone is playing Russian roulette.

Germany and France are turning the screw to get the necessary fiscal policies in place before they get the ECB to print money. The markets might make the decision before them though.

The next challenge, is for German politicians to sell their people the idea that they have benefited enormously from the Euro, and they can feel proud that they have to date helped countries like Slovakia and Poland to increase their standard of living.

Ultimately Germans will have to get used to continually making donations to the PIGS.



The big challenge is getting sustainable growth. If the global economy picks up the increased demand will push up the price of oil. If oil hits 150 dollars a barrel again it will force up prices which will slow down the economy. Every time the economy grows it will always be slowed down by insufficient levels of oil production.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 23:16

I believe the other option is for Germany to pull out of the EURO so that the EURO can be devalued.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 23:34

Bold statement Mark re-mess 6.The big boys renage and withdraw.Followed by France perhaps,



Paul.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
01/12/2011 23:37

Its definitely bold Paul but it was proposed by a Professor of Economics at one of the Oxford Universities. Apparently the idea has been discussed

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 00:22

Bill msg4

No chance of getting caught with euro's,.......never had any in the time its been around.





It was a bad idea doomed from the start why can't the so called "brains" see this

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 00:37

Finished???? It never started just bail out the countries that cant stand on their own two feet. Saves on the foreign exchange i guess

LaptaGeezer


Joined: 01/06/2010
Posts: 407

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 00:39

Hate the Euro anyway.... the whole idea of a Greater Europe was doomed from the start. Megalomaniacs the lot of them! Just wanting to be at a size to compete with the US, pathetic. I hope that Europe crumbles and we can all get back to being our own countries again.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 01:48

Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank,



give a man a bank and he can rob the world.

butterfly



Joined: 26/01/2007
Posts: 164

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 08:52

phil bailey, i tip my hat to you, statement of the day.

slatnumber7


Joined: 25/08/2010
Posts: 299

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 09:40

Sooooo close the Euro account and change it into what, a sterling account or dollars perhaps?

sylvie


Joined: 12/03/2008
Posts: 1081

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 10:12

change money in sterling or dollar, ha ha ha what a joke ! it is not in our hands and never been anyway - wait and see is the only thing we can do, the world is not going to stop turning !

CJtill


Joined: 02/05/2008
Posts: 836

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 13:29

The Greeks are just loving it...their whole debt (not just 50%) will disappear along with the Euro.

Bring-on the Super Drachma.

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 13:33

I bet my life the euro is not finished, to much riding on it, weather the storm.

Tonyta


Joined: 11/06/2011
Posts: 122

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 13:56

Fiscal Union is coming, the Allies won the war, the Germans have won the peace. Is Virgin's space ship ready yet, I think I will borrow the fare and not come back.

thetruth


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 268

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 22:41

so lets say the greeks leave the euro,what do thay do with all the euros thay have?how do we know thay have give back all there currency????

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
02/12/2011 22:47

they do'nt have any euros , they borrowed the lot , they want the drachma back , then they will hibernate for 10yrs , hoping the rest of the world will pass them by

MoonageDaydre


Joined: 09/07/2011
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 00:14

The trouble is the Greek debt is in Euros, and will stay in Euros, so if Greece came out of it and into a hugely devalued 'new Drachma' they'd owe the rest of the world even more money.

There is no 'safe haven' currency at the present time. The GB Pound has been devalued steadily over ten years, and the US Dollar is weak due to the horrendous US deficit problems, the Yuan is artificially low, and the Swiss Franc and Australian Dollar are also artificially high.

I'm sick of narrow minded Brits who hate everything European, but seem happy to do whatever the good ol' USA wants. You'd think they'd be happy that the UK wasn't in the Euro. but no they want to bring the whole currency down.

Mkae no mistake, if the Euro fails it will drag countries that are not in the Eurozone down with it, even the few that are not in the EU like Norway and the Balkan countries. For that reason it won't be allowed to fail.



I don't think I'll be moving my Euro deposits into Turkish Lira just yet..

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 01:29

Re: Msg 21,



"I'm sick of narrow minded Brits who hate everything European..."

"Mkae no mistake, if the Euro fails it will drag countries that are not in the Eurozone down with it..."



On deaf ears, I'm afraid...

Xenophobia and parochialism are deeply rooted in the British psych, and it will take a very long time and a complete overhaul in education to change anything there... :(

LaptaGeezer


Joined: 01/06/2010
Posts: 407

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 01:38

Great Britain did much better before we joined the so called 'wonder club' of Europe... rules, regulations etc. which might be ok if all countries adhered to them... but they don't. How many examples are public knowledge.... import duty on cars in the ROC, it shouldn't be charged but it is.. they get fined but the fines are less than the money they make! Good old England plays by the rules... and everyone floods here to dip their hands into our 'pot'. Not so bad if they were forced to pay tax for a few years first... but that doesn't happen. Housing benefits, unemployment benefits.... this benefit, that benefit.... we give it to all and sundry. Crazy! There is little wonder that xenophobia is raising its head in the UK.

I am not saying that it is right.... just that there is a great deal going on right now that is promoting it.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 02:20

msge 22



"Xenophobia and parochialism are deeply rooted in the British psych"



This is a strange statement. Look at the high levels of foreigners in the UK. 250 languages are spoken in London making it linguistically the most diverse capital in the world. Not to mention Birmingham, Leicester, Peterborough etc. That would signify that Brits are pretty tolerant.

You can hardly call a nation that fearlessly navigated the globe and bequeathed the world its laws and language parochial, arrogant and merciless at times, yes, but not insular.



In any case, fear of outsiders is ubiquitous. It runs through every society. Donald Brown the anthropologist is a good reference.

HairyPeggy01


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 06:33

ilovecyprus. You paint a pretty picture of a diverse and harmonious UK, which I see as far from the truth. I guess this is the pot calling the kettle black as an expat living in the TRNC, but most immigrants to the UK have no intention of intergrating. They form their ghettoes and carry on as if they were still in their indiginous country, with all the benefits of a civilised societry.

That's why you have gun battles between Somalians in Milton Keynes, for example. That's how they settle disputes in Somalia. The Vietnamese have turned England into the cannabis farm of Europe. That's what they do naturally.

Sorry, but at the age of 73, I lived in England in the 50s and 60s, when it was not diverse, but it certainly was harmonious.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 08:38

I love nearly everything European, however the Euro is a bit of financial machinery that I (yes me) was foolish enough to think would work but time has shown it to be a bit of a 'black box' of smoke and mirrors. I don't regard the Euro as essentially European in nature and I think some might regard it as anti-European. Having a tendency to cause strife between nations as it does. The proponents of the Euro wanted us to think that to do other than aspire to membership was anti-Europe but I think that was a false message. A way of pull the wool over the eyes of the masses.

The internal workings are flawed, particularly if the regulations are allowed to be flouted.

If the Euro does fail it will be because of sheer lack of diligence.

It should be replaced by something more robust and more strictly administered.

What then? Well wherever their is debt, there are creditors... so who controls all the debt? Who is owed the vast sums 'lost' in the debacle?

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 10:11

Reminder: the EU (starting with Montan union, EC ) was a poltical will, but not necessary to boost the economy in the first place. In Europe the "extrem national interests" lead to serious wars every 20 to 30 years and that was going on for ?? 1500 years???

Avoiding these ongoing physical battles, every EU institution was worth it!, and the economical advantages are now very obvious. What is a "financial crisis" compare to a serious war? Nothing, it can be solved. But exactly these financial battles in the past lead to wars and this is the reason why the Euro was introduced.

NOW we have to TALK, eg about the "national interest"! Whether it is "fair" what France, GB, Germany or Greece does "to the others". GB should join the euro only for that reason and the Euro should not fail, otherwise we will fall back into a not very prosperious past.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 11:03

msge 25



Pay attention Hairypeggy. I was not arguing as to whether the UK is a diversely harmonious place. I was pointing out that Britain is diverse and that generally the Brits are a pretty tolerant race. This was in response to a comment made by another poster who believes that the British psyche is uniquely xenophobic.



Now if we are debating about race relations in the UK, yes you are right, it is not all rosy in the garden of Eden.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 11:23

If we all supposedly stand together in the EU how come more countries have not recalled their embassy staff back from Iran.



Its all right "condemning this action in the strongest possible terms" but what about a more unified pull out.



But of course this is the UK............it stands alone on issues like this.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 11:33

msge 27



kibsolar



We have been here before many times on the forum about whether or not the European Union has been the primary driver in creating peace in Europe.

You cannot ignore the other factors

*American funding and American troops kept the peace in Europe. Western Europe united around a common enemy the Soviet Union.

*Trade between European nations increased trust. This was the intention of the common market (which I agree with) Europeans have been too busy making money and enjoying their material wealth to want to fight. Energy that once might have gone in to fighting has gone in to wealth creation. There has not been a lack of resources to allow nationalism to creep in.

*Women entering the political system has softened the system

*Freedom of the press and increased communications mean that generally people are better informed.



Europe should be networked, it should work together on energy creation, move funds to the less prosperous etc but tighter integration

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 11:36

is going to create problems not that it can be avoided now.



I see the ECJ is going to have powers to enforce sanctions if a country goes outside its budget. What are they looking to do, lock up the countries chancellor. It will be interesting to see what sanctions they want to impose.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 14:16

ilovecyprus, I agree with you at most of the points, there is not so much to say against it. I just wanted give a "political reminder": If the member countries will continue to use the Euro, the Euro cannot "fail", no matter what "non Euro" countries will say. It will be an existing currency, with a slightly changed exchange rate to all the other "bancrupt" currencies, so what? The euro isnt made "for the world" it is made from and for europe, with failures or not, doesnt matter.

One euro is still 1,35 to the dollar, the GBP 1,16 to the euro and the financial markets still need a "tidy up". In times of difficulties separation tendencies are common, also a subject in this forum. But we will see who, at the end, will be "separated". A small hint to see which way the wind is blowing, to my opinion, was the (agressive) behaviour from Sarkozy towards Cameron.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 16:48

Re Msg 21 and 22



Narrow minded Brits - Xenophobia



I dont think so. Try Democratic - Self determination. Its not that Brits hate Europe or Europeans quite the opposite. Individual Nation states within Europe have had their freedoms defended by Brits in the past often at great cost when we could of just turned our back on them.



What most Brits want is a vote on this anti democratic corrupt Union so that we can leave it in an orderly fashion and if other countries wish to remain in then that is their FREE will



However the EU political class have no intention of ever allowing such a vote so in this instance the only thing that can be hoped for is the complete collapse of the Euro followed by the EU and that will be a glorious day on a par with Waterloo,Trafalger,Agincourt etc etc

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
03/12/2011 22:45

commentators note encouraging platitudes like "not allowed to fail" and "the necessary political will"



but if the currency's weaker members are in trouble, only germany can bail them out via a nod and

a wink to the ECB...but german voters won't sanction buying up worthless debt "forever"



delors has apologised for getting the common currency off the ground in the first place but "upyours" is

happy to blame the politicos, with some justification, for their lack of rigour



the european project has some good and some bad aspects but for all the waffle it was not founded to promote international peace and brotherhood and as the eec was conceived to empower europe against super-power domination and this under franco-german leadership (the largest voting bloc as it happens)



the saddest thing is not brussel sprouts but brussels touts too stiffnecked to dismantle the thing in an

orderly manner, before the market kicks in the front door on the whole rotten edifice

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 00:33

Women have softened the political system ? I doubt the whole of the world, not just Europe, thought the Iron Lady was of a malleable metal. Whatever opinions of her, it cannot be denied that the majority of the world respected her as a leader and the Germans and French were terrified of her. I wish she was now in her prime so we could witness her handbag into submission the pencil neck European politicians who cannot comprehend that spending more than exists (mainly on their own nests) is totally unsustainable for the now and the future.

astro941


Joined: 22/05/2011
Posts: 193

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 05:17

I have one of these Euros, Gulp!

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 13:47

it's all a con anyway, led by those behind the big banks, those who have always controlled what goes on. They all make Billions out of speculation. They are all corrupt! It really doesn't matter what the currency is called, the only way out of this man made artificial joke is to cancel everyone's debt and start again from "0" ... there is no other way.

Follow the money and you'll get to know who is making the big bucks during all this.

All governments should cancel all debts and start from "0" it really is that simple.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 14:22

message 37:



thus speaks a bloke without savings to lose if those banks "go under"?

and what of all those business which will fail if they can't get credit?

but maybe there are arguments in favour of returning to the stone age



message 35:

and now there is a two-backed beast called the merkozey, apparently



message 33:

put a cork in the triumphalism bill, and wait for the recrimination-fest

...meanwhile according to "insiders" germany is busy printing d-marks

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 14:35

businesses cannot get credit at the right terms at the moment anyway.

savings are guaranteed up to set limit by the government. anyone who puts more in a savings account than the government guarantee should know that there is an enormous risk these days.

we will never ever get out of this compounded debt!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 15:08

walkerscott,



do not want to sound smug but though cash amounts are guaranteed there is no ultimate guarantee

of cash money against hyperinflation, steep taxes or the collapse of markets



"we" will get out of the compounded debt if there are mass defaults, as you seem to suggest above:

the technical term for this is: out of the frying pan into the fire...



seriously though everything does work in cycles and the european economies are sure to come back

with or without the bonkers euro

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 16:33

Clarrissa



How right you are.

As for mess11

''I hope that Europe crumbles --''

You nasty piece of work .Europe is 500mill ,men ,women.children ,if UK wants out ,just leave ,without wishing harm on all those people.

Probably said by people who live in NC, and hate UK but only until EU is mentioned ,then they love it. We ,living in UK ,being part of Europe will crumble as well.If your home is in NC ,then shut up and mind your own business and concentrate on the'best fish and chips on the Island'



As for this rubbish that we were better off before going into EU . I have travelled to France ,Germany and Holland since early 60's and at no time since then ,in or out have we been better off than a French , Germa n ,dutchman.



Take heed ,if we carry on constantly showing our hatred for 'other' Europeans ,then when we do leave .it will be nasty. What would happen in a street where you constantly insulted and impeded all other residents.Why not leave on friendly terms.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 16:38

PS,



Hows the lira being doing last few years against the 'lousy Euro'

and as for the wonderful pound, 30% down against the Euro in recent years. If thats a strong pound then would hate to see a weak one.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
04/12/2011 16:56

girne 29



You are completely missing the point



We would love to leave - The problem is the corrupt political classes wont let us



As for the value of the pound - It has deliberately being allowed to devalue which is the ONLY reason we are not in the same mess as the eurozone

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 14:17

message 11:



...except that we are almost totally interdependent for jobs and trade like it or lump it



as girne 29 would likely point out, free trading, unrestricted movement and easy credit

must have boosted europe's standard of living (perhaps by a quarter or more?),

just as I'd claim that cheap chinese-made goods probably put the equivalent of another

25% in every worker's pay packet



but the problem is, none of this now appears to be "sustainable" to use a much-misused

term, so we will suffer greatly in varying degrees because of the imbalances and deficits

clocked up during the golden years



meanwhile, if anyone still thinks friday's european summit will somehow "solve" these

contradictions without berlin funding southern europe for ever they are likely to face

disappointment



concerning the bitter medicine dished out to date, this caused the weaker economies

to contract sharply and requires them to pay back even more in the long-term

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 15:31

msg 43: Hä, UK is NOT " in the same mess as the eurozone"? THAT is really new!

The UK just started to print money earlier. Thats why the GBP dropped from 1,45 to the Euro to nearly 1:1, remember? (that is "allowed", but NOT "deliberately"). That made your scottish whiskey cheaper and we all enjoied it. Unfortunately it made life for UK expats quite expensive.. and IF the euro goes down again, to eg back to 1,45. .. we will stop drinking the whisky and a 100.000 jobs in the UK are gone... the UK has nearly nothing else to export anyway any more, exept TESCO fishfingers and Tuna chunks to the TRNC, and also the UK will most probably learn one day that you cannot "feed a whole country" from the profits of an outrageous financial market.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 15:57

Scottish Whisky has no 'e'.... so it must be fake!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 16:03

In other news... some have it that Germany has already secretly been printing Deutsche Marks. Now I wonder why that is felt to be expedient?

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 16:26

but it was a good fake anyway, i searched a little reg this "printing D-marks".. i could not find any evidence.. just rumours at doubtful websites... no way to keep this secret anyway, so I do not believe that.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 16:29

Re: Msg 43,

"We would love to leave - The problem is the corrupt political classes wont let us "



I think it's you who are missing the point.

And who is preventing you from leaving ?

You mean the corrupt political classes in Britain you have voted for?

Then vote for non-corrupt.

The EU membership is not obligatory, any member state can leave.

So please do leave ASAP, then maybe you can become a Chinese colony.





Re: Msg 43. "As for the value of the pound - It has deliberately being allowed to devalue which is the ONLY reason we are not in the same mess as the eurozone."



I have to agree with Msg 45, you must be living in outer space. Otherwise you would know that the situation in Britain is very bleak indeed. Osborne admitted only last week that we are for " ... more cuts, more pain, more borrowing" for a very long time, as Britain failed to eliminate the budget deficit, projected for 2014-2015..../

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 16:30

…cont./

Even this gloom for the foreseeable future is based on the premise that the EUROZONE CRISIS IS RESOLVED, because otherwise a European meltdown will mean a free fall for the British economy.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 17:06

Kibsolar, just out of interest...

http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/12/04/eurozone-countries-plan-return-to-old-

currencies-102039-23608250/

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 17:14

http://www.people.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2011/12/04/eurozone-countries-plan-return-to-old-currencies-102039-23608250/

not sure what happened there....

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 17:25

yes, groucho, i searched the girl Pippa, the "former economic adviser to ex-US ­president George W Bush".. she keeps telling this since two month... and mainly she uses the term "i believe".. she is eg member of the " Council on Foreign Relations ".. search the members.. its a "US-gang"..

deputydawg


Joined: 30/03/2010
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 17:51

If the Euro does go will the rights of Europeans to live and work in any country of the union go with it and/or will the government have a contingency plan to stop millions swarming over the White Cliffs of Dover and Heathrow to get all their social and NHS benefits. The UK Border force/farce are not fit for role.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 18:18

..I forgot.. this Pippa "suspects" that the D-mark is printed at Delarue, in the UK! (maybe because the german federal printing office is fully booked till 2025 ? for export) What a joke, especially in this thread. The UK may keep some D-mark, maybe the GBP is quicker at 1:1 to the Deutschmark as " deliberately being allowed". Then a million germans will spend their holiday in the UK, drunk! .... and the British are ultimative stuck to chinese and italian water pumps... no.. a compromise:

if the UK would not be that "sometimes nasty" to the rest of europe, then the "third biggest economy" could join the eurozone "in peace" and a lot of european problems, incl retreive the situation reg the PIIGS, could be solved much easier. IMHO.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 20:08

Msg for kibsolar and clarissa2



I think we will survive if you stop drinking whisky



Ask the Irish the French and the Dutch what happens when the people have the cheek to vote against the way the political class want. You are made to vote again until you give the right answer and then are prevented from any future votes as a punishment for your insolence.



Ask the Greeks and the Italians if the are happy now they have unelected governments (everywhere else called dictatorships) running things



How easily you seem prepared to give up your freedoms. No doubt people died in the past to ensure you had these freedoms in the first place. What a waste their sacrifice was.



Yes i want out preferably by negotiation if not then i hope the whole EU collapses

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 21:19

bill, I cant drink soo much whisky, my age, you know and.. your "gold" is still somewhat expensive. i see your point and it sounds much better now as in the previous messages. Iam neither a supporter of Merkozy, nor of these "dictatorships". But iam also not a supporter of "freedom", incl building nuclear power stations 1-200 km off the border to my neighbour or killing the seas by overfishing.. or destroying the economy by robbing the people... negotiatons are the only way.. within the EU or not, it nearly does not matter. We all have only one world.

Meanwhile you can fight for your freedom and try to make sure (at home) that at least all your given votes will be represented in both of your parliaments, gosh!..in ONE would be a nice success.

dollyr


Joined: 05/12/2011
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 21:40

sod the euro - its the giro thats keeps a fair few getting sloshed on a nightly basis here

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 21:50

gulp... what?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 21:54

A friend of a friend is a printer in Greece. He has said that he knows for certain that the Drachma is currently being printed and stockpiled.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 22:09

Re: Msg60,



I wonder what drachma exchange rate will be : 1 kg for a euro?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 22:19

@ msg 56, BillBarnacle: (...) Ask the Irish the French and the Dutch what happens when the people have the cheek to vote against the way the political class want. (...)



▶ "the Dutch"..?! What's that supposed to mean? In Holland people can vote for the party they prefer AND every voter is represented in Parliament. Can you say the same about the UK?

Your economic insight in the current EU/Euro problems has not at all won my respect yet, but certainly not if you start talking political nonsense about countries you obviously do not know much about.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 22:24

Really msg 60 ? this rumour is 9 month old... and as far as I know greece does not have proper printing facilities

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 22:28

Message63. Only repeating what I heard.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
05/12/2011 22:56

IF the Euro fails the EU will implode. A couple of the richest countries will form a new bloc, stronger and richer than ever. EU troublemaker UK with its huge deficit will most probably not be invited to join. Just a question for all people who almost beg for the downfall of the EU/Euro: how are millions of jobless Brits are going to earn their money? Export wool from East Anglia to Wales?



And many times in threads like this one people condemn the strong economic position of Germany (including 'vassal state Holland'. Just another question: how come the UK does not have the same strong position?

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 00:11

For the DutchCrusader



Correct me if am wrong but i am not



The Dutch along with the French were given a referendum on the EU constitution. Both voted NO. The result was the birth of the Lisbon Treaty no real difference between them.



The naughty French and Dutch people were then made to vote again. This time the powers to be rigged it with scare stories and threats as to what would happen if the voters defied their masters again.



As for not being invited to join a new bloc if you can arrange this you would be a hero to approx 80 percent of Brits. I am not sure that would be the case because whilst our armed forces are not what they used to be the fact is the EU would struggle to project military power without us.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 00:16

Back to the original topic



Oh dear and this after the Franco German takeover of everyone else in the Euro



http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/eurozone_placed_on_credit_downgrade_watch

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 01:09

bill, why "oh dear".. its going the drection you want... be honest.. who deserves an AAA? bloody nobody.

Your argumentation is "ok", but the conclusions are not. nothing will be "better" without the EU or the eurozone, but "the system" needs renovation... we urgently need a compromise, a new direction of living. We".. this are the people, not the bankers. we may agree on less virtual money and instead more joy? have a nice night.

lamek


Joined: 27/02/2011
Posts: 16

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 08:43

I have zero sympathy for all in the euro, basically designed for the elite money makers and sod all others, welcome to the real world all those that thought they were in the money and are now not`i sincerly hope they suffer further until somebody realises...that everyone needs each other!!

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 09:42

Msg for DC



Correction to msg 66



I was wrong the Dutch DID NOT get to vote on the Lisbon Treaty (The renamed EU Constitution which they had previously rejected)



Your democratic politicians thought you might vote the wrong way again so NO VOTE for you



Still you can enjoy being run by Germany if you wish

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 10:17

@ msg 70, BillBarnacle: Good to admit you were wrong. Well done. But the rest of msg 70 is wrong also. But this thread was not started to discuss the Dutch political system so let's leave it.

And for Germany. In the tiny country Holland we have not much to wish for or demand in Europe. The country is Germany's biggest harbour by nature and that's that. Holland prospers because of its location, now being one of the richest countries in Europe with the best pension system in the world. I often think fondly about it - here in the TRNC sun.

Good luck with your expected or hoped for bright future outside the EU - you and the future millions of jobless people in the UK will need it badly. Unfortunately.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 11:56

Germany too prospers on its location.. in the middle of Europe. And Germany knows that. Even conservative economic observers say: "Our profits are their debts" Germany is willing to pay!

Next year are presidential elections in France, Sarkozy at 35%... Francoise Hollande... a socialist. In not two years are elections in Germany.. Merkel at the moment 35%, red-red-green at 65% (with big influence already)... Merkozy finished. Germany would change its social system, its banking system, open the ears for smaller economies/countries and keep an eye on London, which is not able and willing to control an outrageous financial market... maybe Germany even would SUPPORT that the UK will leave the EU... and then Bill... lucky you, you are FREE and you can start to sort the things with the Welch, the Scottish and the Irish. Good luck.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 19:49

russian friends are always amazed how easy it was to get money you basically

don't have from a hole in the wall



but of course there are no easy answers...after all the trickiest problems don't offer

any "easy answers" and indeed that is why they are such a pain in the butt



as dc suggests (?) or almost nearly admits "certain states" may be extentions of the

"wunderswirtschaft" or german economic miracle, but that was probably inevitable



some on the postings reveal latent xenephobia ...or its mirror-image europhylia,

but I for one cannot see why the eu need break up as a free-trade zone following

the death of the euro



but as for the twelve billion quid britain forks out annualy to help fund the bloated

eu apparatus, try as I might it is very difficult to picture this as value-for-money

Rivonia


Joined: 06/12/2011
Posts: 4

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 21:24

The EURO IS NOT FINISHED> The Alpha bank group in Sth Cyprus has just had a MASSIVE injection of both QATAR and RUSSIAN funds all in EURO's.



The Euro is too big for europe to attempt to change it and the cost's of just supplementing a feasability study would be in the MILLIONS- So just sit tight and put your mony into a safe researched bank.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 21:43

As I said in msg 2 it will not happen.



As we speak they are plotting and planning the next hair brained scheme to save it.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 22:21

The point is when are you throwing good money after bad? When the recipient has no means of repaying? It's one thing to be a creditor and controlling the actions of debtors and entirely a different thing to throw away wealth as there is no prospect of recovery. Too many of the countries in the Euro-zone are delinquent, the odd one could be coped with but the list is now too long and set to get longer as the story unfolds.... Too many defaulters and the house of cards is set to fail disastrously. The German populace will not stand for losing all their post-war gains to satisfy the egos of politicians and their grandiose schemes to be the saviour of these unruly and dishonest nations.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 22:31

Its over for the Euro



The eurozone is bankrupt



Even mighty Germany does not have the funds or growth to bailout the whole eurozone



It is the markets that will make the final decision not the useless politicians



Any fix will definitely not include Greece and probably most other southern European countries including the RoC



The RoC could bail out the EU with the profits from their gas drilling but i dont think they have found any yet

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:04

germany & france , want to change the rules now ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:20

@ msg 78, rowlo: (...) germany & france , want to change the rules now ? (...)



▶ Yes, they certainly will. Supported by Finland, Austria and Holland. The only countries with a positive past and future. And a couple of second class other countries. Brits, you don't understand what you are praying for. All countries will suffer after a downfall of the EU/Euro - but *you* will be back in the 1930's - only far, far worse.

Get real.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:24

bill.



states cannot be bankrupt since there is always some tax money trickling in

but we are talking about defaults on loan payments and the upshot of that is

all credit is withdrawn, so economies grind to a halt



one of the biggest problems is this exact crisis hasn't happened before

so predictions may be unreliable ...but although markets do not "decide"

since they are not a living organism, any serious fall in confidence results in

virtual danger money being demanded in order to lend cash:

hence that ominous 7% figure



the germans have decided not to fund the weaker eurozone states

any more since firstly it would have to be permanent and secondly what you

are doing is lending more and more and more simply to pay off loans,

and not as an investment in their future development



beware of smugness:

a writer in today's "telegraph" thinks the uk/us tactic of printing money (uk £275b)

amounts to a soft default, tho' not classified as such by S&P

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:26

...thus indirectly lowering the value of their currencies on the markets

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:27

you on the drink hans? we brits aint in the euro , its the currency thats collapsing ? and remember if it was'nt for us brits , you would be german ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:30

@ msg 80, andre514: I kindly suggest the anti-EU brigade to check the fate of the Pound Sterling against the Euro in the past 5 years. You must be terrified. Down, down, down.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:37

"you don't understand what you are praying for"

Who's praying for it? Saying it might or is likely to happen has nothing to do with wanting it to... Many of the posters who don't think it will fail seem to make the mistake of holding the other view makes it a wish or desire of the poster, rather than simply their take on the possibilities or realities of the situation as they see it.

In my case it's just that I can't make the figures stack-up and reveal a path to success out of this truly awful mess. My main reason for hoping it doesn't fail is that I can foresee it leading to international strife... something I think nobody could want other than the likes of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:45

I think the Europhiles minds are fuddled



The markets will decide as they did when we Brits thought we could remain in the ERM in the 1990s. We paid a very heavy price in just one week before being booted out and this was at a time when we had lots of money and our economy was in reasonably good order.



The value of the pound is low currently because our interest rate is 0.5 percent with inflation running at about 5 percent. If interest rates were raised to EU levels the value of the pound would soar but this would not be good for exports and growth and would choke off any hope of recovery.



Running inflation at 5 percent also has the effect of devaluing our debt and reducing the overall cost of the public sector pay bill which is not to good for individuals but is something the country needs to do.



Finally we are far from out of the woods yet BUT at present we are not facing a downgrade on our credit rating our borrowing is amongst the cheapest in Europe

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
06/12/2011 23:49

the effect of any fall in the pound is terrifying if one is trying to make ends meet inside the eurozone

...though generally speaking an effect of currency devaluation is to boost exports



but if you are trying to blame the anti-eu brigade for the eurozone's problems that is a bit of a cop-out



anyway a more accurate term is "euro-sceptic" a position increasingly justified by events of recent years



last month's one trillion rescue fund has apparently only materialised on the printed page, and friday's

rumoured two trillion fund looks likely to be no more tangible either



but any eurozone crisis is bad bad bad for britain ...and devastating for relations within europe I'm sure

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
07/12/2011 00:25

£1 = €1.17, where's the panic?!



Richard

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
07/12/2011 00:52

richard,



as I remember it the euro started off at 72p, briefly fell to 62p

since then it did reach 92p at one point

...and is currently trading at just over 85 pence, a respectable figure



but it is said the dollar and sterling are fairly weak anyway,

so since the value of one unit can only be expressed in terms of another

the euro may not be intrinsically that strong



my friend paid more than half the money upfront on a spanish property

which was priced at £202k at the time but as the euro strengthened

about six years ago the sterling equivalent of the project hit £225k:



she was "fortunate" not to have to pay the extra, since by this time the

builder had gone bankrupt... though she had now lost her lifesavings,

and in what had been portrayed as a "safe" eu country

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
09/12/2011 14:33

Thank God Cameron found his testicles and said



NO NON NEIN

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
09/12/2011 22:28

msg 83 DC, yet another of your anti Brit posts,is there nothing about"your" Netherlands that you dislike, other than wearing crippling wooden shoes..and eating "Rubber Cheese "?

safrole


Joined: 17/10/2011
Posts: 16

Message Posted:
10/12/2011 11:14

Finished or not, Turkey won't be allowed to be a part of it

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
10/12/2011 11:34

msg 90. The "old gouda" is not that bad... but much more expensive... the "cheap rubber" available at Tescos or the TRNC is a demand of the customers who buy it... it does not represent the dutch cheese manufacturers. It would be the same as it would be said that "Famous grouse" represents the british whisky manufacturers.

We all should not forget one thing: the moment we change a bank because they offer us 1% more interest rates... we are part of the problem. Thats why eg Italy is bancrupt, but the private savings are very high! as they get now 6% and more for the debts of their own country!

Same applies for the UK, France, Germany. Even the greeks still are quite healthy (in average of course...)

msg 91: do not be too sure about that!

walkerscott


Joined: 13/08/2009
Posts: 901

Message Posted:
10/12/2011 20:48

Efforts by European leaders to shoe-horn a range of diverse countries into a rigid financial cage are doomed to fail. But that’s all part of a long-term plan for a global super-currency which can only bring more hardship to ordinary working people.

A question that more and more people are asking nowadays is, “What on Earth were the Europeans thinking when they agreed to have just one currency for all of Europe?”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29937.htm