Has Cameron Lost the Plot over Europe ?

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 20:25

Nick Clegg, in an interview with the BBC's Andrew Marr, has admitted that David Cameron's veto of EU treaty changes is bad for Britain and could leave it marginalised and isolated and that outright antagonism to all things European from parts of the Conservative Party had contributed to the difficult position Cameron now finds himself in . " I don't think it's good for jobs, in the City or elsewhere, i don't think it's good for growth or for families up and down the country " he is quoted as saying ! What price a general election within 12 months ?

Isabella


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 20:30

I certainly don't think the future for the UK econmy is looking good at the moment.

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 20:34

Re: Msg 1,

Withing 12 months?

Sooner than that, I think.

Lord Ashdown said that any of the previous PMs could negotiate it better in truly British interests.

Cameron has just walked out - the worst diplomatic performance since the Suez crisis; "40 years of British diplomacy down the plughole".

Cameron was not thinking about British interests, he was appeasing 'the dinosaurs' in his own party.

dublinderm


Joined: 26/09/2009
Posts: 538

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 20:34

A cynic would suggest that p*ssing off Clegg was the idea all along.



What was agreed in Europe appears to be just a tightening up of already existing rules - so what was there to object to?



UK General Election in the early spring with an overall Tory majority.



THEN Cameron will find there was nothing to object in any case, or he will heroically wring some obscure 'concessions' from Merkozy!!!



DD

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 20:36

msge 1



EamonnMC



Your post seems to be mostly about asking the question, will the coalition split? Perhaps, but it may be the last chance for the liberals to taste power, not unless they form a coalition with Labour. An opinion poll has just put the UKIP ahead of the Liberals.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 20:42

About 600 million people in the EU are shaking their heads about the 60 million Brits "who know better". As usual. Sad. It's NOT the bankers in "the City" who'll pay the full price - it's you.

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:00

Msg 5,



"A House divided against itself cannot stand " !

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:01

Doesnt matter its all a con.

We are in the doo doo. Govt boasts about our finances compared to rest of world ,well if include TOTAL debt as does other countries ,then we owe 103% of gdp not 60%. 9th worst out of 132 countries,

•Total UK debt includes household sector debt, business sector debt, financial sector debt and government debt. This is over 500% of GDP.Total UK Debt

'





I have very little debt either, if I dont include mortgage ,car loan and master card.

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:05

The UK was being forced to agree to unacceptable and undemocratic decisions to save a currency of which it is not part.



While the financial sector may be in part to blame for the Eurozone crisis by far the bigger culprit is the wrong construction of the whole Euro experiment itself; with inbuilt deficiencies as to the North/South deficit and a continued looking away as ALL the members allowed serial breaches of the rules. To protect this bastard currency - of which Germany, France and Holland have been the main benefactors (by keeping their output at prices which were artificially cheap in Southern Europe) now two democratically elected Governments have been replaced by EU placemen.



Democracy is being sacrificed for the Euro project.



If a new fiscal tightening of the Eurozone members is going to work, then: 1. Why does the UK need to be involved? 2. Why hasn't it worked so far?



The Eurozone plus plan has yet to be formulated or agreed. Lets see it in action before judging

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:06

cont





...the UK

trailfinder


Joined: 28/12/2010
Posts: 48

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:08

I voted for a free trade Europe NOT the federal state of Europe which is what seems to happening year by year with more and more control over all countries economies being sought and given to the EU commission.

I am amazed at the Brits who appear to want to give the EU control of our budgets and economic decisiions. Is that really what you want???

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:11

Spot on Gordon;



As for call me Dave, one could argue he played a blinder for the Europeans.



If he had accepted what was on offer/demanded, that would almost certainly have meant a referendum in the UK.



Neither Merkel or Sarkozy wanted that as we all know what would have happened. This way equals no vote and the EUSSR get on with being under the German jackboot.



Yet again.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:12

msge 5



"A House divided against itself cannot stand "



Perhaps. They clearly have different ideologies and to be honest I have been surprised they have held it together for so long.



What keeps them bound? I feel the two leaders have a synergy and so far, both sides seem committed to getting Britain's debt down.



msge 8



Very true. We are really in the shit and I dont think people have really understood this yet.

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:14

If the Euro fails , not only will Europe suffer but also the World ! Britain cannot stand alone and survive ! The inward looking Cameron is in Ostrich mode !

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:14

@ msg 9, Lambousa Gordon: (...) Democracy is being sacrificed for the Euro project. (...)

▶ Sorry, Gordon, a line which should make you think again. Democracy in the UK? How many voters are represented in the House of Commons..?! Let's forget to discuss the House of Lords...

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:17

This must be the post for the Europhiles on the forum. Just to answer a few of your points



1.Cameron has approx 82% support from Brit public on this Cleggy about 11%

2.Any General Election called now would wipe out the Lib DUMS and they know it

3.600 million in EU shaking their heads - Are you sure it is not because they realise their countries,currency and freedoms are being stolen from them.

4.Lord Ashdown (aka Paddy Pantsdown) would of had the UK in the Euro Ha Ha what a joke

5.Cleggy what a disgrace - Sometimes leadership requires difficult decisions to be made.He was consulted and is now backpeddling.Sooner he goes the better.I suspect however that he will become a Conservative and be given a cabinet job in any future Government as a reward.

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:26

Now for some home truths



1.We have our own currency and can therefore manage our way through this crisis

2.If we get out we can use the 51 MILLION POUNDS A DAY that we pay to the EU as we chose

3.Our Net contributions to the EU are second only to Germany - they will miss us more than we them

4.No europhiles are able to answer the charge that the EU is anti democratic, corrupt, incompetent, run with bloated bureaucracy costing us billions in wasted money.

5.We can have our fishing grounds back

6.We can stop subsidising rural french farmers

7.We can ditch the Human rights act allowing us to deport terrorists and foreign criminals and spongers



The list goes oo and on



We will not only survive outside the EU we would go from strength to strength

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:27

Msg16........When the Sh*t hits the fan , the support will do a runner, of that there is no doubt ! The Conservative Party will do it's usual trick and implode over Europe. They have never known whether they want to be in or out ! Maybe somebody else should decide !

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:27

Hans,



Lets not be disingenuous. What have the Northern block just done to Greece and Italy? Technocrats instead of democratically elected Governments.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8948303/All-Britain-is-isolated-from-is-a-looming-eurozone-disaster.html



Money Quote:



"We are told that the whole point of the treaty changes was to ensure that there was some central authority which would ensure that, in future, eurozone countries cannot run up the sort of debts which they now have.



Didn’t we already have such rules in the ironically named Growth and Stability Pact enshrined in the Maastricht Treaty which were disregarded?"

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:37

EamonnMc........When the Sh*t hits the fan , the support will do a runner, of that there is no doubt ! The Conservative Party will do it's usual trick and implode over Europe. They have never known whether they want to be in or out ! Maybe somebody else should decide !



My point exactly - we should be allowed a referendum but have been prevented because the politicans know what our answer will be - OUT



LambousaDidn’t we already have such rules in the ironically named Growth and Stability Pact enshrined in the Maastricht Treaty which were disregarded?"







Yes we did - The Germans and French we the first to break it but because they were the biggest they dictated that no fines would be imposed



Do as we say not as we do springs to mind

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:45

Knee jerk reactions are inevitable wrong and that is why politicians want to stay in Europe..... This policy has evolved over many years and has been endorsed by most political parties during that time. These policies have been teased out and debated and found to be, in general, best suited to need !

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:45

Simple question;



How many of the 27, or 28 with Croatia, had democratic governments throughout the 20th century?



Offhand I can only name one.



She's been on her own before, she'll be on her own again.



The Millwall maxim



"no one likes us, we don't care"



eamonMc; good luck with your corporation tax, and can we have our £8 billion back?

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:48

Dutch, BillB... neither 80% of 60 millions brits supporting DCs NO (for the reason given), nor are 600 million shaking their heads. There are many reasons to be sort of against these "EU technocrats" and there are many reasons to be in favour of an EU or even eurozone. The problems, eurozone or GB debts, are terrible and a minimum 50% of all europeans would like to change the system in general. The so called Merkozy-plan isnt worth the paper its written on and the story will go on much further. but we all have to understand that the times of plenty are over and it more and more will lead to separation and/or social fights. this does not only apply for the UK/EU, also in Germany we have EU-sceptics on "both sides", the one is the separation party (saving germanys wealth, Dmark), the other ones are the "social party" who claims that the EU protects the banks. Within this context the "bank-friendly" No from DC will not make many friends. No need to be europhile to see this.

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 21:56

Nerwscoop, For a British person to ask about democracy, considering her colonial past is laughable ! Last time Britain was on her own, she need American help to survive and the British Empire no longer exists or had you forgotten ? For the survival of all, friends are required, without friends in this world, you are doomed !

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:04

@ msg 20, BillBarnacle: (...) we should be allowed a referendum but have been prevented because the politicans know what our answer will be - OUT (...)



▶ It may interest you that in Holland ("Member of the Fourth Reich" - your words) the government MUST, repeat: MUST, organise a referendum if only 100.000 out of millions 18+Dutchmen sign a referendum petition. Repeat: MUST.

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:09

Germany and France wanted a treaty that restricted banks powers... Dave said no as finance is the biggest tax payer in uk and also the only industry that is producing.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:14

Democratically speaking if a govenment is to make a decision that will change the face of that country beyond all recognition (the UK) then democracy should be upheld and the people should vote.





The EU only works for a select few,.. it has stumbled from crisis to problem and back again ever since it was formed countries are independant and should remain so.

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:15

eamonMc;



Yes Britain needed friends, and they were without exception English speaking countries plus India with one notable exception to the west, they were also helped by self interested people from subjugated countries.



And your point is in todays world?



Again; what about your right to self determination and our £8 billion?

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:29

Dutch



How lucky you are only 100000 to force a referendum - Don't shout to loudly about it otherwise the EU commissars will put a stop to that. Don't believe me just get a petition going and as you get towards the 100000 mark see what happens.



I think you maybe missing my point though. Holland is a democratic country,the club you are in is not. Your country has already had recent experience of this ie The EU constitution.



In the EU democracy means vote they way (we the politicians want) or we will make you keep voting till you do like they did in Ireland or we will change the name ot the treaty and not give you a vote at all as they did in Holland and France



How is that democratic - please tell me

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:36

BillB, msg 17... 2,3,6: the UK does not subsidise rural french farmers. UKs 1.5 billion net contribution to the EU (in 2009) was less then belgiums 1.6, dutchs nearly 2, italies 4, france 5, and germanys 9 billion (all approx).

Question: why only pos 6, less than "these dutch"? UK bancrupt? or good horsetrading?

Hopefully the UK will not send you as a negotiator to brussels for exit negotiations...if empty fishing grounds (emptied by yourself) is everthing you would like to "have back", they will be happy to "return them". Good luck with illegal chinese fish trawlers.. you can sink them, human right are ditched anyway. And reg "terrorists".. whereto you wanted to deport the scottish separatists? Ah no... right.. sorry.. you also want to restore Hadrians wall. sorry again. got it now.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:51

UK 1.5 billion ?



Try 103 billion euro's since 2007 ?

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 22:53

Kibsolar



I am glad you are not my accountant



2009 UK net contribution 4.1 Billion



2010/2011 6.4 Billion a 60% increase how lucky we are



On top of this we helped with the first bailout of Greece and gave Ireland 7 Billion because we are (friends)



Enough is enough

Taz666


Joined: 21/12/2008
Posts: 180

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:02

The Question should be "Has the Goverment ever HAD a Plot"



Still waiting for them to get something ANYthing right!!



DD you really think Tory's will win the next election? it will never happen and thats a fact

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:07

these paltry little countries have left the uk wide open , and the tory leader walked in to the trap ,

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:09

Re: Msg13,

"...Very true. We are really in the shit and I dont think people have really understood this yet. "



Many educated people,who can fathom economics, have understood it and are truly horrified by the recent development.

Unfortunately there are always will be dinosaurs who still think they live in 'Rule Britannia' world, so no reasoning possible with them...

Taz666


Joined: 21/12/2008
Posts: 180

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:10

Just like the rat he is

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:11

Newscoop,



Once again, every country needs friends including Britain if they wish to prosper , this is self evident ! As regards any loans given to Ireland, they will , of course, be repaid with interest as all loans should be ! Funny how Britain still owe America over £225 billion in historic debt !

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:28

EamonnMc



Where do you get 225 Billion from.If it is our war debt then this has been paid although it took nearly 50 years from the war end to repay it



Funny how it was incurred to remove the Jackboot from the throat of Europe

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:38

BillB, sorry , lets take this one http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:42

said jackboot , is back on the throat , only this time , the jackboot will win .

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:48

1. Everyone is in the crapper at the moment.

2. The UK is still in the EU.

3. The UK is not in the EURO; in fact only 17 of 27 members of the EU actually are.

4. The plan was to save the EURO - therefore a matter for the 17 countries of the Eurozone. Though of course the UK and the other 9 really need to help as much as possible.

5. A plan submitted by Eurozone members basically amounts to Fiscal Union (or as one commentator has put it "FU"). This plan is really just a rehash of the Mastricht Treaty and provides much the same opportunities for signatories to ignore its provisions as they ALL have done in the last few years. To lend teeth the Eurozone 17 wanted to utilize EU institutions (Court, Commission et al) to "enforce" the "new" rules (please note that a "qalified majority could agree to ignore violations...ha ha). This would mean all 27 members would have to sign up to a new treaty. The UK said it would as long as a) The Single Market would not be distorted (cont)

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:50

Kibsolar



your link relates to 2007 nearly 5 years ago and does not show net contriutions.Below link from same source is what you are looking for





http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:51

Kibsolar



when on the above link select NET contributions

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
11/12/2011 23:51

(cont)



...between Eurozone and non-Eurozone members and b). London's City would be protected form legislation rendering it uncompetitive in the outside world. Please remember the UK is NOT in the Eurozone. In return all member states would be subject to i) a golden rule on deficit limits for all member states, ii) automatic penalties (presumably in the form of sanctions) for countries that break that rule, and iii) a requirement that member states submit their budgets to the EU authorities for approval before they can be considered by their own national parliaments.

HairyPeggy01


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 01:33

DEJA VU

The Germans have steamrollered almost all of Europe into submission, the French have hove rolled over and put their paws in the air and Britain stands alone.

Can somebody please tell me what year this is?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 01:38

"About 600 million people in the EU are shaking their heads about the 60 million Brits "who know better". As usual. Sad. It's NOT the bankers in "the City" who'll pay the full price - it's you"



If I remember correctly the FRENCH,DUTCH and IRISH peoples all voted NO when given the opportunity.

If at a guess the BRITS were given an opportunity to vote and also said NO then:



85 million GERMANS

65 million FRENCH

60 million BRITS

14 million DUTCH

5 million IRISH



Nearly half of the European peoples have told Brussells were to go in one way or another only to be ignored, have various treaties changed to circumvent the possibility of a second vote, or as in Ireland's case had their PMs sent back and told to procure a YES vote or else the money flow would be turned off.



There is only one slight problem preventing an EU superstate... democracy, it keeps getting in the way !!!



Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 01:44

Messages 41/44.. excellent points.



Re the last requirement demanded that all member states submit their budgets for approval.



This from an EU that has not had a budget accounts submitted and passed in fourteen years. Yes 14 years !



The last Treasury Commissioner that dared to challenge this was summarily sacked.



Did someone mention democracy ie accountability?



Joseph

HairyPeggy01


Joined: 01/09/2010
Posts: 24

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 02:00

I always thought that a veto meant that the subject being voted on would be completely blocked for all members.

So, do reecent events mean that if, in the end, South Cyprus were to veto Turkey's entry into the EU, South Cyprus would be excluded from any discussions involving Turkey, which would be permitted entry all the same?

It's just the usual EU rule bending to suit the Germans and French.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 02:38

message 48:



"if....south cyprus were to veto turkey's entry into the eu"



it would hardly need to!

sarkozey and merkel already made it crystal clear that turkish membership

is basically not welcome, and they are the largest voting bloc



and a message to the mass of gloating eurosceptics, above:



nobody knows, and certainly not the experts by their own admission

what will happen to the promoters of the euro and the viability of

their 'zone in the next two to twenty months, say



it may be that the idea of keeping their finger in the dike will not be

nearly enough to fend off a tsunami...or they may "get away with it"



no-one can predict if cameron's non-participation in their latest wheeze

to rescue the common currency, is the start of a chain events that will

see britain's eventual departure from the eu and whether that will matter

greatly or not a lot, to the country's trading pattern



we are in uncharted waters where superstition and fancies breed

MoonageDaydre


Joined: 09/07/2011
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 02:42

Several people are making references to 'democracy' and 'accountability' in this thread, so I'll pose you a question.

Who decides in your denmocracy, and who are governments accountable too?

It used to be the electorate, but not any more. All Governments are more interested in pleasing the bond markets than they are their own people.

In the 70s you could get badges and t-shirts that said "whoever you vote for the government gets in." I think these should now be reprinted with the words "whoever you vote for - the bond market gets in!"

I didn't vote for the bond market, or the City of London, or bloody Standard & Poors come to that - yet they are the ones running governments today. So while some of these myopic 'bulldog Brits' fret about the 1% of their GDP that goes to the EU, the real rulers of the world laugh all the way to the banks that our taxes bailed out!

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 03:28

MoonageDaydre,



What a great point...it's time for politicians to grasp the nettle and reassert their authority and stand up to the "markets" who are only in it for the money !

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 10:31

Fine, well and good.



But then those self-same politicians and governments (and the citizens who voted for them) better get used to living within their means and stop being reliant on those "evil" markets for huge amounts of cash to back up the governments' bonds for money to be frittered away on ridiculous levels of entitlements and state-spending.



Why do you think the banks were bailed out?



We and our Governments have bought and spent way way above our means.



How?



Because our Governments - and especially the EU - have kept interest rates, and therefore money, at ridiculously cheap levels. Sure, the banks were happy to oblige. But make no mistake: our Governments and by extension us, demanded it. We, with our free-spending consumerist mentality, that EVERYONE is entitled to untold levels of debt, are now paying the piper. We are as complicit as the banks. They may have enabled it but we sure as hell demanded it.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 10:50

msge 52



"We are as complicit as the banks. They may have enabled it but we sure as hell demanded it."



Spot on. Everybody is complicit in this, the governments, the banks and the general population. We have all been drinking and gorging ourselves to excess. It was a great party but boy what a hangover we have.



Germany can argue they have been thrifty, but they have benefited from the hogs in the rest of Europe. Germany also played the game.



Why is it now that the West, who was prosperous and who as an ageing and retiring population has not got any money in the bank, whereas China, a country who should be borrowing heavily from the West to build its infrastructure finds itself having to lend to the West.



What a state of affairs.

Allan


Joined: 28/12/2010
Posts: 40

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:07

Msg 11, 12 & 16 Brilliant could not have said it better, what on earth is going on with the simple minds who want a European state governed I may add by people who do not live on this Island of ours.

We want someone to govern, fair to the people of Britain; I am not sure if the conservatives are doing the best job but the labour party and liberals well!! What can I say? As for a European dictating to our policies, go and swivel.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:12

msg 50, 51, this it what I say all the time, there are other subjects which are much more important.

In the UK they cry "referendum" and what a great guy this DC is... the EU papers often "britbash", making the masses now believe that this new "Merkozy plan" is a wonderful contract.

What we will lose if eg a FTT is introduced all over the EU? if the excessive trade of commodities is regulated, if CDS are regulated, all this "black markets" closed? Its always only said the "crisis" made "damage to the global economy.." what damage we will have if all continues as it is? We have to come back or introduce a direct trade (manufacturer-end-consumer via internet) or distribute once or twice.. but not a 30 or 90 times!

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:13

cont

The "net contribution" to the EU is a half year profit from eg Barclays (GB), Deutsche Bank (D) or Paribas (F), they could pay it! Every EU citizen pays approx 300-400 Euros to the banks profits, net, year after year, the “losses” of investment banking, hedgefonds and other “hidden costs” not included.

We all should stand for an ultimative "No", because the banks became “to expensive” for all of us.

“The markets” keep saying (since two years, lol) that ".. its all not enough, because the Euro will doom.." another game to play with the fears of the masses.. nothing else.

It seems to be a good sign… that something changes …slowly but steady , let them move on with their “high speed trading” to Shanghai or New York, bye bye.

Even if the Euro dooms.. what it will change to the vast majority in the EU?

If we all would have the guts of the (real) british… not a problem at all.. Europe stands alone, and?

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:24

Kibsolar,



I agree with your points regarding the UK and EU press.



However, it must be clarified that the summit's main intent was certainly not to impose an FTT on Europe (actually aimed at the UK's City).



Rather the main point was to save the Eurozone.



That the UK refused to sign up to the proposed treaty changes does not in any way prevent the other member states from reaching an agreement on how to do this and any attempt to blame the UK thereby is just a pathetic attempt to shift the blame for the whole rotten mess from the Eurocratic elite. Sure, the EU institutions can't legally be used to enforce any agreement but other mechanisms could certainly be put in place.

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:39

The definitive commentary



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/everyone-still-pretending-they-know-what-they%27re-talking-about-201112114658/

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:57

msge 57



kibrisolar



It would help greatly if the EU said it would work hard on Britains behalf to pressurise the US, Switzerland, China and Singapore to simultaneously introduce a FTT. All countries would benefit from this. The fear is that countries will lose if they themselves impose and others don't.

If the EU pushes for this,it will show Britain it is on its side and this will help.



Cameron is in a difficult position, he has to keep the economy growing and the City of London brings money in to the kitty. We are struggling to develop our high tech industries and like the rest of Europe and we cant compete with Asia in low tech manufacturing. We like many in the West have a large number of people who are ill equipped to compete in the global market. The city is not just about banking it is also about insurance.



I am very certain that Cameron knows the risk if the EU implodes.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 11:59

correction to 59



...knows the risk if the EURO implodes

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:02

gordon,

".. the summit's main intent was certainly not to impose an FTT..main point was to save the Eurozone...shift the blame..."

true very much true, and thats the problem! Merkozy, Cameron.. are not the only conservatives in europe fighting for "success"!

Nevertheless.. there are changes going on..because in Europe "conservativ" often has different meanings. Even the "lefty" Greens in Germany are some sort of "conservativ" as they would like to protect the nature. So, they are pro Merkozys plan in many ways, but for them it does not go far enough. Together with "the lefts" and the socialdemocrats they represent 65% of the population.. so, more "trouble" to come. Look also at italy, greece, spain.. all over europe.. the "reformistic" ideas are growing every day and the eurocratic elite must follow this path.

If Britain, the US or others cant keep up the "speed of change", the eurozone and the EU, it seems, does not care any more.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:16

kibsolar message 55:



in line two you refer to this great guy "DC"



would you believe at first glance I thought this stood for "District Commissioner"!



...a freudian slip for one of us, surely

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:26

ilove.. "..The fear is that countries will lose.."

this is the "fear game"... germany (Frankfurt) also did not want an FTT.. because of LondonCity. All rubbish. of course the EU would be on britains side.. and the chinese as well, or do you believe the chinese would allow westbankers to rob them? Obama only waits for a sign, introducing bank regulations already (the EU should do the same!.. here we are.. the US is asking.. europe does not follow! ), the switzerland problem is on the way to be solved, and who is singapore?

Of course DC is in a difficult position.. we all are!,.. but "the old way" does not work any more. That simple it is. The same you decide for "good german" equipment instead of having a rubbish chinese product, you will see that at the beginning it will be a little more expensive, but at the long run much cheaper. The City of London, Frankfurt, all the others, are not sustainable and thats why they need to go.

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:33

andre.. why freudian?, its true .. and they all meet up in brussels to discuss. they also send their reps to eg Durban.. another subject which is not discussed here at all... because the EU-zone problems keeps us all sooo busy..

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:42

(sigh)



"why freudian?"...message 64



because judging by very many postings, including mine perhaps,

it is the post-colonial assumption that the natives of europe would be far better off

under the paternalistic rule of an old-style Distict Commissioner



sorry, but the whole crisis is just too ghastly to be entirely serious about

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:45

msge 63



"this is the "fear game".



We could argue that fear is an illusion but it is very real to a great many people. Do most Britains think that the EU is on Britains side? Clearly that is not the case after last weeks meeting. The EU showed no understanding of Britains predicament and the EU could argue the same about us.



So what the problem then? You say China will introduce the tax, Obama is waiting and Switzerland is ready to go. Why isn't it being implemented across the world then? As you said in another post the tax may even reduce the number of financial transactions which is what you want.



Yes we all need to get as good as the Germans but this is unrealistic. Germany will continually have to agree to pay large subsidies to other countries. If the EU is about one block, we are all in this together, then this is how it is going to be. It is know good the Germans saying that the others need to get their act together.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:47

msge 66



correction



It is no good the Germans saying....

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 12:57

ilc message 66:



final paragraph, line two: yes yes a thousand times yes!



that's the real reason for all this will-they-won't-they drivel in the media,

and a page of stomach-churning whining in the other days' cyprus mail



now you would think that if the german voter was in favour of this tactic

(any more than happily letting 80 million turkish muslims join the eu)

also known as tipping the wink to the ECB to issue "eurobonds" ie print

cash though in a more formal way than the uk and usa just have,



...why haven't they done it by now?

LaptaGeezer


Joined: 01/06/2010
Posts: 407

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 13:01

Most of the public in England are crying out to get us out of Europe and as soon as the PM makes the first move to detach us from the dreaded 'Euro Zone' people start moaning! Clegg is just so pro Europe that it makes me cringe; we need to be out of the whole mess and start running our own country in the way the English people want it to be run.



Too many MPs want to have their 'Euro MP' jobs when they move on... just look at Kinnock, he failed over here but has made millions from the Euro angle. Once again they just want to keep the door to highly paid jobs open to them. Load of old cobblers!!

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 13:01

Hairypeggy01



''The Germans have steamrollered almost all of Europe into submission, the French have hove rolled over and put their paws in the air and Britain stands alone.



Can somebody please tell me what year this is? ''





Pathetic comment, I can tell you what year it is- 2011, for everybody except you.

And I wouldnt be too hard on the French as regards 1939, the only difference between them and us is that thay had no where to turn tail and flee to.You expected the French to stand and fight, with their families in the front line.while we fled?



Now back to 2011,the Euro crisis, world recession and how best to solve the problems. While we are doing that you can sit under a table with your steel helmet on ,whistling the Dambusters tune and quoting Kipling.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 13:05

msge 68



"...why havent they done it by now?"



Exactly Andre.

eyebob


Joined: 22/06/2010
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 15:14

Merkel now achieving with words what Hitler failed to do with force,the total domination of Europe.

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 16:15

Msg 72,



Hard to argue with your point !

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 16:25

EU Commissioner, Olli Rehn is quoted as saying this morning.."If this move, (Cameron's Veto ) was intended to prevent bankers and financial corporations of the City from being regulated, that's not going to happen. We must all draw on the lessons from the ongoing crisis and help to solve it and this goes for the financial sector as well "

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 16:38

Eg msg 72.. yes, maybe the Germans will take over. At least they have a vision. lol.. Something most of the British do not have, latest since they realised that this "empire idea" is finished and not everybody abroad speaks english any more.

Now they want "to hide" and scream "let us all alone", "eurocratics" and "we want our fishing grounds back"..

The british have to admit that they never never came to terms with the past. They never said "sorry", they never changed their political system.. Thats hurts and there is a lot of work to do. Maybe its really better that GB will leave the EU, for one or two decades.. in which they could drink a lot of whisky, just rethink what they have done to the rest of the world (and to themselfes) and how it could go on in the future..

BillBarnacle


Joined: 20/04/2009
Posts: 167

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 16:56

Not long now till the HERO Cameron storms into Parliament to the sounds of Rule Britainnia squashing the pathetic weasel LIB DUMS beneath his feet to explain how he has saved the UK from an utterly dismal future within the EU

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 17:03

kibs,



are we truly sure zimbabwe and cyprus, as a couple of random examples,

wouldn't have been better off under continued british rule?



only *joking!!!



seriously, many of your comments are getting facetious but hey, of course

the age of empires is over



but yes the germans have a vision, probably very similar to the french one:

to build a strong germany or france, oops I mean a strong european union



but the $64 million dollar question is can these hacks really hack it?

granted, divided or lukewarm britain presents them with little choice other

than isolating it...



though some informed opinion in the usa, russia, japan, and china doubts they

can yet prove they'll keep the whole financial house of cards in one piece



only time will tell



andre



* I think

kibsolar


Joined: 14/09/2008
Posts: 552

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 17:24

No andre.. this was not meant facetious. call the superpower of today the US, they will have the same problems soon, call china the next superpower... they may fall into the same trap.

Are you sure that "the whole financial house of cards" can be kept in one piece? I dont believe this any more. We are all bancrupt. It seems more that the EU-zone prepares to get out of it as smooth as possible. The US will crash and then THEY can have some whiskEy and can think one or two decades. What i mean andre is: its time to think... Mother earth, quo vadis?..

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 17:34

msge 78



This might be up your street kibsolar - Rifkinds vision of a Green Europe which he is working on with the EU



Headlines



*Economy grows. China and other developing countries demand more oil. Oil price goes up and food prices etc go up. People stop buying, economy slows down

*Oil based economy comes down crashing

*Way forward - Green based economy

*Every home generates its own green energy - geothermal

*Millions of green jobs created

*Excess energy stored by hydrocarbons

*Cost of energy comes soaring down releasing capital for business growth - internet and high tech businesses

*Energy transferred along internet cables from places of excess to where it is needed - Internet finally comes of age, being suited to the green energy revolution not an oil based economy

*New forms of Leadership. Distributed leadership, informal networks and distributed networks

*Groups focus on collective intelligence and wisdom not individual brilliance

suehowlittle


Joined: 31/10/2010
Posts: 1202

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 19:15

Could I politely ask Brussels for some audited accounts please? Perhaps I might have a little more respect for a machine which publishes it's accounts.



I might be niaive but it does seem to me that huge amounts of everyones' money is being poured into a huge black hole and no-one wants to tell us what it is spent on.



I also want to know what the 'machine' costs us to run, especially as MEPs have to keep on going to Strasbourg to have their meetings to keep the French government happy.



This is the age of video conferencing. It has never been more accessible and simple. I am sick of hearing how 'green' everyone in Europe wants to be when the travelling miles must run into the millions each year. What would the carbon footprint of that be?



Why does Brussels feel that it is not required to keep and publish audited accounts?



Who could make them????????????????????????????



Can the last man out please turn out the lights?

Lambousa Gordon


Joined: 03/11/2007
Posts: 1992

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 20:49

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8950685/Like-it-or-not-Britains-veto-was-Germanys-decision-not-Camerons.html

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 21:18

The ass covering has commenced !

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
12/12/2011 21:37

Sue Msg 80



How very true about the accounts,... so don't hold your breath for an honest answer.



A bit more truth and openness in this EU corrupt system and they may get a bit more respect.

bertieboss


Joined: 22/07/2011
Posts: 149

Message Posted:
13/12/2011 02:00

If "hero" Cameron is so anti europe why did he not fight to keep the rail contract at Bombardier instead of caving in and giving it to Siemens???

Cameron is intent on insuring that his chums in the city and the bankers are not compromised.

And why is not sir Fred the Shred in prison for losing at least eighty billion pounds of tax payers money???

But they will imprison someone for fraud if they dupe the system for a few pounds at the other end of the scale.

Anyway none of you has a clue as to what is involved in this situation so a referendum is a nonsense.

Barnacle Bill - hmmmmm.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
13/12/2011 11:10

msge 84



The Bombardier contract is a prime example of what a powerhouse Germany is. How the hell do other countries compete with it? Its bad enough trying to compete against their football teams. I still cant believe they beat us at Wembley in the 96 European semi final :-(

Recently Britain felt smug because it secured a 1 billion export contract with the Chinese. The next day China signed a 9 billion contract with the Germans. No disrespect to Greece, Portugal, Southern Italy and Spain, but if Britain cant compete how can they. Mind you Spain have a great football team



bertieboss - agree about Fred. Even his own staff called him a megalomaniac, but in conversations I had with business people it seemed this was an acceptable trait in the city. Narcissism and egotism are seen as sources of energy and drive.



You are right about nobody having a clue about what is involved. That includes politicians and economists.

Rogerdoger


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
13/12/2011 12:03

The EURO is doomed, all we would be doing is giving more power to France and Germany to ignore UK legislation and milk the UK, well done David cameron, at least he has the balls to say it's not in the UK's intrest, Ed Milliband what a prat, it was labour who got us into this mess in the first place and he has the nerve to critise Cameron, and as for that wet blanket Nick Clegg, what a sulk, he didn't sit next to cameron in the house of paliment in case he deflets the debate, yet he goes straight on TV about the same time to slag Cameron off, he hasn't got the balls god gave him.