After official report: day of shame for the Catholic church in Holland

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 13:10

The following news story has been sent to me from Today's Zaman iPhone Application :

▶ [ http://www.todayszaman.com/news-265868-.html ].

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 23:52

Sadly Hans, this seems to be the way of the Catholic Church

Ed1957


Joined: 03/09/2011
Posts: 377

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 00:19

in all countries

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 00:37

thats only what we hear about , funny how not many get prosecuted ? may'be god will prosecute the sickos eh , fingers crossed .

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 04:39

These offenders should be routed out and prosecuted to the full extent of the law.



In my opinion anyone who has shielded them in any way should also be prosecuted.



However, we need to look even deeper into this story. As the above posters say this seems to be endemic in many countries throughout the world. So the story should go deeper and consider not only the institutions these people hide in but the depravity itself'



Presumably these were Dutch people commiting grievous assaults on young Dutch children.



What a sad reflection on Dutch society... and anywher else this occurs.



Regards Joseph

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 06:42

Joseph, it's far more an indictment on the Church of Rome than any of the societies in which this obscenity has occurred. Unfortunately, the Netherlands is only one of the countries which has had such a blight inflicted upon it, and those that are now well known are, I fear, but a tip of the iceberg.



Ireland and Australia have, to a small and shallow degree, addressed this ghastly problem already, but it seems quite probable that this outrage has existed in any country which has accepted the spread of Catholic brotherhood.



Again unfortunately, it isn't just the priesthood at fault either. In many cases, involving severe injuries and even deaths of some of these poor children, the local (Catholic) police officers and government officials have also been complicit in the cover-ups.



The Church has always and only ever been concerned about one thing...covering up any of these atrocities that ever came to public light.

gazmufc78


Joined: 03/09/2009
Posts: 366

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 07:43

Defrock them and then cut their ball off !!

CarrieRBag



Joined: 23/12/2008
Posts: 1374

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 08:31

Well said gazmufc78... I concur!

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 09:13

I agree with Rottolover in msg 8. The main problem is the institution "Catholic church", where people are forced to live an unnatural (sexual) life.



In the past bisshops and even the cardinal in Holland KNEW about the abuse (and only the pope in Rome didn't..?!) - they all did NOTHING! Unforgivable and in my opinion the excuses now are worth nothing.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 10:32

Hans they did do something. They sent a lot of the guilty Priests to third world countrys.

The problem continues there and will never be investigated.

On my way home to Ireland a few years ago I met an old gentleman who was going to Dublin to give evidence about the abuse he suffered , at the hands of Priests, whilst in an orphanage. He had not been back to Ireland in 48 years and did not want to go then. His wife talked him into it. I wonder how many more have not told their story because there was no one to ' talk them into it '.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 11:07

@ msg 10, Carndi: (...) The problem continues there and will never be investigated. (...)



▶ I'm afraid you are very right. That's why though from afar I support the people in Holland who now urge the government to consider asap how to protect young people in third world countries (especially Africa). The Catholic church, which has abused its own 'ideals' throughout the centuries, should no longer be allowed to have any influence in this world.



The only remaining task for the Catholic church is to fully compensate the (hundreds? of) thousands of victims of child abuse in this world. That shouldn't be a big problem, because as far as I have noticed the Catholic money isn't spent on millions of people starving in the streets - often in front of Catholic churches.



I find the silence of (innocent) Catholics disappointing. To say the least.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 11:51

Msg 11, well said





not often we agree

but you are right

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 12:01

Yes, Dutch, I completely agree with your sentiments.



On the news a few days ago was the Philippines president introducing a new birth control bill, and the Catholic priest condemning it, saying the government had no right to intrude in peoples' lives...



The Catholic Church has been likened to the largest, most powerful and certainly the wealthiest multi-national corporation on Earth, but their wealth seems to go more for the trappings of Catholicism than feeding the needy and helping control population explosion.



Thin sheep, fat shepherds...

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 13:26

I am not a Catholic by religion, but do consider myself having a 'Christian, nature. Why is it that the governments of these countries where the atrocities regarding priests/nuns/children are not insisting on prosecution of those committing these heinous crimes? Why are the world's highest courts not actively involved? Who will protect the innocent and vulnerable? Take the hierarchy of the Catholic Church to court and when found guilty, imprison them. Will this ever happen - rhetorical question!!

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 16:11

Excellent points tomsteel.



But there is a wider agenda.



I agree with you in that there is no excuse for this criminal behaviour, but such crimes are committed by people and not institutions.. that is where they hide. And too often those protecting the criminals are of a like mind that is why they too should be prosecuted.



To expand a little.

A recent survey in America showed that over 50% of such crimes were committed within the family by members in the family, fathers,uncles etc. But obviously no outcry against the institution of the family.



The biggest single percentage group committing such crimes were teachers.. 9%

But no outcry against the teaching profession.. obviously because it is the small minority of the whole.



Of Religeous groups the worst offenders came under the Anglican umbrella with some 4% of prosecutions.



The Catholic church made up less than 2% of prosecutions.



As we all know there is a massive outcry against the Catholic church.. cont..

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 16:15

cont...



As we all know there is a massive outcry against the Catholic church.. and quite rightly.



But a deathly silence against those groups mentioned above within which these awful crimes are and have been committed. You have to ask why?



As I have said before there is no excuse for hiding or protecting these people they should be arrested and prosecuted, father, mother, boyfriend, uncle,friend, teacher,vicar... it should make no difference.



Regards Joseph

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 17:12

When i was about 14 i had a hot english teacher who was about 28, when i was sent to the stock room to do lines for misbehaving i would fantasize that she put me in there for a reason and she was about to come in and sort me out. But she never did though. But if she had even to this day i would not of seen her as a pervert and would have been glad it had happened. But there's a big difference to this story.

Bet your glad i shared that.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 17:29

@ msg 15, joseph: (...) A recent survey in America showed that (...)

▶ Can we have your source please?

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 17:53

Then the head of year mrs casson walks in and catches us in the act but instead of telling us of she smiles pulls out a key and locks us all in.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 18:08

Interview today on Dutch national radio with Maxime Jacques Marcel Verhagen, a Dutch politician in the Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) party. He is the Minister of Economic Affairs, Agriculture and Innovation and Deputy Prime Minister since October 14, 2010 in the Cabinet Rutte.

He said that the Catholic leaders in Holland should ask themselves if they were fit to keep their positions. Verhagen: "In their position I would resign at once."

Verhagen is a Catholic himself.

Well said, Mr Verhagen.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 18:25

Message 17 and 19, there is nothing remotely funny about child abuse, shame on you for joking about this subject, why don't you take your sick and infantile humour somewhere else.



Whether the person is Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Atheist,whatever their profession, they are evil and should be punished, no amount of compensation can ever make up for the abuse these young people have suffered but at least if they were to see that the abusers were being treated as harshly as they deserve it may bring some small comfort to them.

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 18:36

I think you have taken it wrong, i think what is happening in catholic schools is very bad, and as hans was saying un natural sex. it was a joke but true, not many teenage boys would complain if he got it on with a woman teacher if she was hot. What i said has nothing to do with child abuse.

sorry if you was offended.

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 19:05

Msg 15 - I am unaware of this study and who commissioned it. My point is that heads of institutions who hide such acts, knowing they are being committed, are equally as guilty as the perpetrators. They should all be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Maybe, prison time/experience, as 'boyfriends/girlfriends being raped' by the inmates, would show them how their victims felt. Plus they would no longer have the protection of their institutions, salaries et al.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 19:05

@ msg 22, s.s: (...) what is happening in catholic schools is very bad, and as hans was saying un natural sex (...)



▶ No, that was not what I said. Here is what I said: "The main problem is the institution "Catholic church", where people are forced to live an unnatural (sexual) life." Quote exact or don't quote at all, please.

Furthermore I think that your posts are off topic and completely out of order.

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 19:09

Msg 24 - well corrected and stated!

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 19:10

Joseph, I'd be interested in investigating that 'source' of yours too...it sounds suspiciously Catholic to me. If it contains only the data relating to prosecutions I'm not surprised, given the Catholic Church's cover-up-at-all-cost attitude.



But less than half the offences of the protestant churches?



I don't think so...

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 19:10

This was off topic i agree, and it was a joke about myself, no harm intended, my posts are usually very friendly thank you very much.

Happy christmas cheer up man.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 19:20

And the Church wonders why people are turning away from religion..

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 22:38

When are our Catholic membes going to post giving their reasons why their church allows this.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 23:09

they only comment on the good things , deafly silence on anything else ?

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 12:14

A couple of weeks ago I uploaded a link to an historical fact in Cyprus - the 'murder' of 13 Greek Cypriot monks after being judged by Catholic dignataries. It happened about 800 years ago.

Several C44 members, true defenders of the faith, united to tell me that I should be ashamed.

One reaction: (...) I find your sectarian comments offensive and frankly disgusting. This should be removed. There is no place in civilized society for this verbal pornography. (...)

Where are the comments of these true defenders of the faith now?

And why doesn't member 'joseph' give us the source of his "statistics" (msg 15), when asked politely?

steve.sewell


Joined: 07/11/2011
Posts: 277

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 12:35

DutchCrusader



May i ask, are you a man of faith.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 13:10

Re "A couple of weeks ago I uploaded a link to an historical fact in Cyprus - the 'murder' of 13 Greek Cypriot monks after being judged by Catholic dignataries. It happened about 800 years ago"



Because your so called report was slanted and ill-named, also historically inaccurate.



A member complained of the inaacuracies etc and I agreed by supporting him.



Strangely thereafter the post was not only closed but disappeared without explanation.



Cyprus 44 members can judge for themselves here: http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/79261.asp



It seems to me you have an obvious dislike for any person of faith and most things British.

And little things like the Truth are not going to get in the way of your rancour.

That is your choice but I find such postings nasty and puerile.



Reasoned academic discussion I would always enjoy but this does not apply to you so I do not enter into such.

As too often such discussion with you ends up in namecalling.



Happy Xmas and God Bless;Joseph

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 13:24

@ msg 33, joseph: WHERE is the source of your statistics in msg 15?! That is the question, the rest is the same old, same old.

Or is it also part of your "Reasoned academic discussion" to hide the source of quoted statistics..?

You've shown the true colour of your feathers.



P.S. I'm not anti-Brit - I'm anti-Catholics who are STILL looking for excuses and a "wider agenda".

Rottolover



Joined: 21/06/2009
Posts: 519

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 16:05

joseph, I have no idea whether that report of the murdered monks is historically inaccurate, or historically accurate, or historically half-and-half, but I do know that it was only "slanted and ill-named" in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I found it quite reasonably composed.



I have been trying to have a reasoned academic discussion with you about your source for those statistics, but to date you haven't quoted it. And before you accuse me of the same bias as Dutch, let me declare that I certainly do not dislike any person of faith who observes his or her religion with peace and dignity, but I loathe any person of faith who who attempts to force that faith on others, or who commits atrocities in the name of that faith.



I also should declare that I tend toward an anti-Brit attitude when considering really serious matters like cricket and rugby...

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 16:13

Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat.

tomsteel


Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 482

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 16:29

Joseph, please state your source. I would hazard a guess that you are staunchly Catholic - Liverpudlian, Staff Nurse et al and I would really value your response. From the world's press (if it can be believed) the Catholic clergy/hierarchy have been abusing children all over the world. This cannot be right, surely?

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 16:40

People will not disclose a source, because they may be proved wrong. One ot the problems with the Catholic religeon is, members are brainwasheed to believe,"you must have faith"

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 17:35

Talking about things that happened 800 years ago can not be applied today. Hundreds of years ago they burned people for being witches etc.

The number of people round the world who are Catholics ,who number in the millions and the priests, in the thousands and not all of them can be accused of these crimes.

In all walks of life we have good and bad. Take the Muslims for example who are all classes as terrorists when in truth there are only a small minority.

I am Irish and along with millions of other Irish were viewed as terrorists. Incidently, I am a North Irish Protestent and I can assure everyone reading this that I speak for the majority of Catholics in Ireland when I say they are disgusted with what has gone on. They want those responsible to face the courts and also those who ignored and covered up for the guilty.

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 19:46

Msg39

You say the majority are disgusted, how many knew what was going on, but were afraid of the church to speak out. incidentaly I also live in Ireland.

Carndi


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 613

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 19:50

paddywack. I dont know how many knew and kept quiet but to blame all Catholics because of the church is wrong.

paddywack


Joined: 04/05/2009
Posts: 959

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 19:52

Well why not speak out then

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 20:22

"I'm anti Catholics" Msg34.... Steady on DC , you are sounding decidedly Discriminative ...........

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 20:30

@ msg 43, martinD41: (...) "I'm anti-Catholics" Msg34... Steady on DC , you are sounding decidedly Discriminative ........... (...)



▶ You quote out of context. Quote exact or don't quote at all. This is what I wrote: "I'm anti-Catholics who are STILL looking for excuses and a "wider agenda"."



P.S. After your despicable remark about a certain Jew in the UK, not so long ago, you seem to be the last one on C44 to warn anyone "sounding decidedly Discriminative".

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 21:19

Which Catholics still looking for excuses and a wider agenda are you referring to ? Please be careful with your answer?.... I will jump on you as easily as did to me ... Merry Yuletide