Language as a barometer of power?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 15:11

Does the learning of another's language tell us where the power is shifting towards?



One British school has decided to give up the learning of European languages and instead is encouraging their pupils to learn Chinese.



German language teaching in Europe is plummeting in European schools whereas English and Spanish are on the rise.

Learning German had a large take up in its neighbouring countries but it is falling sharply. Poland has fallen from 73% in 2005 to 52%, the Netherlands 86% to 44% and Denmark 50%-35%.



Levels of English already high in 2005 have risen even further according to research by Eurostat. Learning English in schools is well above 90% in most EU countries and is 100% in Sweden, Netherlands and the Czech Republic.



Johann Van Bruggen, a former chief schools inspector of the Netherlands said that Dutch youngsters were more receptive to Anglo saxon culture than German.



Norway is the only European country where there has been a decrease in

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 15:13

the learning of English. It has dropped from 100% to 44%.



Romania and Luxembourg are the only EU countries where more than 80% of pupils studied French

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 15:52

@ msg 1: This could be noticed in Holland for decades now - it's true. Unfortunately the country is not Anglosized but Americanised (wrong TV series with the wrong kind of English). When I was young parents often offered their children the chance to learn the very first basics of French (at the age of ten), followed up by eight more years of French, at least five years of English and five years of German in the next school - until youngsters had the chance/choice to go to a university. And study more languages if they desired.



But the times have changed. Nowadays, this is the daily life of youngsters: if the answer is too difficult - make the question easier. It has lowered the high standard of Dutch schools (we HAD to learn languages, because who in the wide world speaks Dutch?). Today even primary school teachers often fail to speak and write decent Dutch.



Sad. But that is 2011.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 16:05

msge 3



"the country is not Anglosized but Americanised"



This would seem true to me. Much of the TV in the UK is Americanised.



"Today even primary school teachers often fail to speak and write decent Dutch."



I am always astonished at how well the Dutch speak and write English, including your good self. The Swedes I have met also speak fantastic English.



"if the answer is too difficult - make the question easier."



So it is not just Britain that has this problem. Schools can choose from a number of examining boards. The boards seem to compete on easy questions, so that schools can score good results and keep the government happy. The boards even tell the teachers what the questions are, who in turn tell their pupils the answer. The kids then memorise paragraphs to pass the exams and do not have to learn the deeper meaning of a subject.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 16:31

Ilovecyprus, I think the problem is almost solved. Young people don't write "you are" anymore but "u r". Very difficult to make a mistake, eh..? Only "Here, here!" and "Their you go!" may remain a problem (as this board proves time and time again)...

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 17:09

The setting up of NATO was the main catalyst for the desire to learn English in member courtries. French used to be the second language in Turkey and they swithced over to English.



For years international trade was conducted by a few select people but with the advent of the internet now almost everybody became an importer/ exporter and English became the common language.



I am very surprised about the Norvegians and I am sure there is an explanation for it. Does anybody know what it is?



The trouble with China is not only the language but their way of thinking. You have to be very specific with them and agree on all the points. If there is something that can go wrong, you can bet that it will happen. Words are not enough. Now I ask for pictures of every stage and every angle in order to be able to spot any mistakes. So if anybody intends to learn Chinese, they better go and live there for a few years so that they can also lean their logic which is more important.

ismet

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 17:25

@ msg 6, Elko2: (...) The setting up of NATO was the main catalyst for the desire to learn English in member courtries. French used to be the second language in Turkey and they swithced over to English. (...)



▶ Not in my native country, Ismet. In Holland the necessity to learn as many languages as possible has always had one main reason: commerce.

Ed1957


Joined: 03/09/2011
Posts: 377

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 17:38

One of the main forces now behind the push to learn English is that it is the (main) language of the internet

mahdel


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 19:34

I think it's largely a matter of what students, and their governments, consider useful. I'm not surprised German language studies have dropped off and are being replaced by Spanish as German is spoken in a much smaller amount of places and Spanish is a world-wide language. English will remain the most commonly studied language, IMO, as its a world language, used as a common means of communication between speakers of many languages. Languages used to be studied, in my school days at least, as a sort of study of the culture of the language area as well, whereas now its more based on usefulness in business or communication issues. I think Mandarin will be studied more as China's influence grows but it will never replace English as a widely studied language as its difficulty in learning its written system and tonal speech will mean English remains a better option as a lingua franca.

Erkin


Joined: 15/06/2011
Posts: 339

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 19:34

You all seem to forget that without English, No student can pass the IELTS or Toefl Test in order to study in another Country, 90% of universities around the globe will only except one of these two.



That's the only reason why English is on the rise, even now to get a residency in English speaking countries, one of test must be passed in order for a settlement visa to be granted.



Last year just from Cyprus north and south alone over 7,000 University students went to The UK, America, Austrlia and even South Africa for further Education.



Under E.U directive any student even from member states in order to qualify for E.U education funding they must get at least 5.5 out of 7 for IELTS or 80% out of Toefl to be able to study in another country.



Last year 3,800.000 people went to the UK alone for English Language lessons and over 67,000 to study in Universities in The U.K

BizziLizzi


Joined: 02/08/2011
Posts: 855

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 22:51

Like it or not, it seems "English" has become the lingua franca of the modern world and is likely to continue to be so for the foreseeable future.



The problem is that , even without the English/American English divide, there are so many versions of the English language - you only have to look at the list on the language options on a computer.



Do you think there is a case for standardizing spelling and pronunciation? And would you base it on American or English English. And how would the fact that English has developed from so many other languages affect the decisions? Do you think that native English English speakers should be setting an example - particularly those of us living abroad? Because as DC so often points out, it doesnt often happen on this forum!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 23:36

msge 11







I don't think you can standardise it. People probably use language to heighten their identity and to mark out their own group from others, probably in the same way that dialects work or youth slang. For this reason you will always get variations, however we need to communicate clearly, so in the English language those variations will probably stay limited.



Scientists say that every year lots of languages are being wiped out and as we become more globalised languages are competing fiercely against each other and we may eventually be left with one.



English is the fourth most spoken language after Mandarin, Hindu and Spanish, but is the second choice language of most, so if it is a fight to the death English is being tipped to be the eventual winner.

mahdel


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
16/12/2011 23:56

I don't think you can really standardise a language. You can try, of course, but the reality is that geographic and cultural differences among speakers will result in different dialects and spellings. Even if you standardized English it's start to be unstandardised immediately afterwards. Generally speakers of one dialect can understand speakers of the other fairly easily, with a few notable exceptions, so long as the original language is shared. As for a one language world I just can't see it happening. We may all end up speaking English but I doubt it will be the only language spoken at the same time. Cultural pride and a greater understanding and appreciation of the need to preserve languages will ensure that other languages survive regardless of whether English becomes the universal language.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
17/12/2011

msge 13



"Cultural pride and a greater understanding and appreciation of the need to preserve languages will ensure that other languages survive regardless of whether English becomes the universal language.'



I agree Mahdel

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 00:34

Newton Farm School (in my place of birth Harrow) has just won an award for achieving the best sat test scores in the country.

For the majority of the pupils English is not their main language, although they all speak English perfectly. Very interesting.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 08:33

Hans,

One of the worst effects of Americanisation of English is the American propensity for inventing words that don't exist out of sheer laziness and ignorance... viz 'Anglosized ' which should of course be 'Anglicised' Sorry couldn't resist it...

That awful George W. Bush was probably the biggest culprit of the last 20 years... how did he ever become President?

I was listening to the World Service the other day when they announced that the world's lesser languages are now falling out of use at a rate of about one every two weeks. This is due to the increasing dominance of the major world tongues... Soon it won't just be the UK and the US as nations divided by a common language...

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 09:45

Groucho,

If the lesser languages are dissappearing at the rate of one every two weeks that makes about 26 per year. There are over 800 local languages in India alone, so that will take over 30 years just for India. So nothing to worry in our lifespan, we will have alternatives to English.

ismet

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 10:09

@ msg 16, Groucho: Corrections of my inevitable mistakes* in the English language are much appreciated. Thanks!

* I have to face the truth: my English will always be - more or less - "translated Dutch". But I keep trying...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 10:32

Ismet,

" 30 years just for India" India's languages all gone in one generation... it does not bear thinking about. Anyway, I'm devoted to the retention of the most beautiful of languages... Gobbledegook which is at various times to be observed in this very place! I am totally fluent and a religious practitioner

BizziLizzi


Joined: 02/08/2011
Posts: 855

Message Posted:
17/12/2011 23:25

'Groucho - thanks for pointing out what was wrong with "anglosized" - I had been staring at it knowing it was wrong, but wondering what it was! Comes of posting late at night when I am brain dead! Perhaps it could go as one of those funny definitions "the size of an Anglo Saxon".



Actually I would hate to see English standardised (or even standardized) - I love it as it is, in its infinite variety. But I also get concerned at how many misunderstandings occur simply through lack of communication and wonder if , whatever language is used as the lingua franca, some form of consistent basis would help.



What really gets to me, though, is computer speak. The techos seem to delight in using a word in common currency and twisting its meaning slighty.. Perhaps I am paranoid, but I suspect this is a form of "knowledge is power" play, and they do it deliberately to make it even more difficult to people like me to understand the .****** things!

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 16:18

The problem with learning Chinese is that you can't read or write it.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 17:10

I think English has become a world language because of its loose word order and spelling. It is also very useful in describing abstract objects and movements and if a word doesn't exist for the same, one will be invented and quickly move into common usage. As in Netiquette, Guesstimate, Emoticon



If you jumble the words in an English sentence up, one can still understand it For example, if I said, "I went to the door and found my mail" or "the door to went I mail my and found", one would still have an idea of what was meant.



Similarly letter order doesn't matter in word spelling, as in the following.



Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, olny taht the frist and lsat ltteres are at the rghit pcleas. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by ilstef, but the wrod as a wlohe.



With a language like that, communication becomes easy

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
18/12/2011 20:28

Ken,

Where have you been for so long? Good input.

ismet