Was there ever an "Armenian Genocide" in Ottoman Turkey?

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 12:35

French Senator Nathalie Goulet has criticized a law penalizing denial of Armenian genocide allegations, saying she will go on a “crusade” to prevent the law's approval by the Senate

"I will go on a crusade against Valeri Boyer's draft law," Goulet said, referring to a law that sought to penalize the denial of Armenian genocide claims with a year in jail and a fine of 45,000 euros

Any attempt at oppression would hurt France's stance, Goulet said, adding that conflicts should be resolved through discussion in democracies. She also said she was against laws about the collective memories of peoples

No such findings have been confirmed by any court in Europe, so the "genocide" itself remains nothing more than an allegation - proven to be wrong many times by Turkish historiand referring to written Ottoman records of population and events at the time

Due to elections coming soon, the (crazy) French president supported passing of such a law to earn the votes of ethnic Armenians in France :

Aslan


Joined: 23/06/2008
Posts: 757

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 12:49

google it!!!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 12:55

I am not a historian and even worse I know very little about history but what we conststantly hear from Turkish sources is this:



After the first WW Turkey was occupied by the allies and Greece and thus she fought the Independence War under the leadership of Atatürk. The Armenian armed gangs in eastern Anatolia attacked the Turks from behind in an effort to set up a separate state and hundreds of thousands Turks were massacred in the process. The Turkish state retaliated and caused a forced exodus from the area and tens of thousands died in the process. some came to Cyprus.



Turkish archives are open for study to all historians but the Armenians are refusing to do likewise, hence the argument that they are hiding the true facts.



Whatever happened, it is wrong to pass a law to make it a criminal offence with imprisonment and hefty fines to reject the Armenian arguments. What kind of democracy is France?

ismet

martinD41


Joined: 06/09/2010
Posts: 3001

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 12:58

A "VERY FRENCH" one

Jovial_John


Joined: 31/01/2009
Posts: 1024

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:00

Even the Armenians are unhappy about this new French law as they worry that it may harm their much improved relationship with Turkey - very important to them as Turkey is the powerhouse of the region.

Personally I suspect that what is happening in France is just another move to deter Turkey's EU application - Turkey has already recalled her ambassador to France in response. Coupled with the row over the RoC's upcoming presidency of the EU and the RoC's recent attempt to overturn Turkey's invitation to the EU's conference on Syria (the RoC was supported by several other countries in this) it may collectively be enough to cause Turkey to withdraw its application.

wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:13

If you look at Frances genocide in Algeria

http://www.enotes.com/algeria-reference/algeria

This goes on from their invasion 1840 until they left in 1962

Oh and was the current president of France father in the foreign legion in Algeria and implicated in the acts ?

ianwfs


Joined: 08/01/2008
Posts: 563

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:26

The Armenian situation goes back to well before the first world war with a history of conflict between the two communities. What is not in doubt is that there were tens, and probably hundreds, of thousands of Armenians killed during the war. Whether it was a genocide or not is down to semantics (or perhaps pedantics).

The Armenian side says that there was a genocide (in the modern understanding of the term). The Turkish stance is that while there was mass expulsions and many deaths, it was just one of the sad effects of a worldwide conflict that caused millions of deaths. Furthermore, they say if indeed there was a genocide, it was undertaken by the Ottomans, and has nothing to do with the Turkish republic, which is a totally different legal entity.

It is interesting to note that most historians, even Turkish ones, accept that there was mass slaughter of the Armenian population, but they aren't in agreement as to if it was a Genocide.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:26

Funny enough, there is a very high level of trade going on between France and Turkey. Especially in the manufacture some French cars in Turkey, and the sale of agricultural products and textiles to France. However, the French stand to lose more because Turkey spends much more on French imports than their exports to this country

The above being the case, what a foolish move by the French parliment, just for the sake of few more votes, during an economic climate when they cannot afford to lose on trade!

If the alleged crimes had ever taken place (which I have no doubt is a gross exaggeration of what actually happened in the area - and understandably so), they were during Ottoman Rule and before "The Republic of Turkey" existed - hence Turkey cannot be held responsible anyway! What next? Ask the Italians to pay for the atrocities Romans carried out in Palestine and Egypt? or perhaps the Church to pay for the indiscriminate killings by the Crusaders who kept attacking the Holy Land?

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:39

ianwfs;

Unfortunatley you are wrong in the first part of your claim and tell only half the story in the second part.

"Armenian situation goes back to well before the first world war with a history of conflict between the two communities..." WRONG! The facts are: throughout Ottoman rule, the Armenians were well protected and revered as "good traders" for hundreds of years. Not only did they live in peace and comfort, but were even exempt from military service in Ottoman armies when they went to war in Europe. As a result they thrived and became the rich residents of Ottomans.

When Ottomans first started to fight agains Russia and Europe, the Armenians supported the cause fully. Only after the downfall of the disintegrating Empire and the implementation of some fanatics by the invading French who injected the idea of "Greater Armenia", they were armed by the invaders and began attacking the Turkish villages in the area killing women & children as well... (cont)

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:42

I'm also against the laws about the collective amnesia of peoples... Britain, the UN and many other countries who over the years have been equally guilty of exercising poor judgement and often having committed grave errors (Anti-Communist Russians sent to a certain death after the war) and sitting on their hands and allowing atrocities to take place under their so called 'protection'.

Nearly a hundred years later to try and deflect public opinion away from the current and very real failings of government and attempt to demonise another nation for what is quite clearly nothing to do with modern Turkey is as dishonest as it is disingenuous.

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 13:51

If you bother to look up the standard definition of a "genocide", you will know why no such thing happened in Eastern Turkey. Mass graves where occupants of such villages were buried had since been found, both after the Turkish army moved in the area and many years later. It was the discovery of so many killed by the Armenians that made one of the local commanders see red and ordered all Armenians to be killed indiscriminately.

Right or wrong, the soldiers did not hesitate to oblige - but hey! Who says you or I would not have done the same after witnessing such horrible murders by the people we were ordered to kill? Of course I would now say "no way!", but how can I be sure unless I was in that situation with at the time?

The army mainly Kurds killed tens of thousands as a "revenge killing", but just as many Turks got killed by the Armenians before that. The Armenians saw the opportunity to have their own "expanded country" into Eastern Anatolia by biting the hand that fed them. Cont

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 14:02

With Atatürk's army beating the invaders back and the FRench fleeing the area, the Armenians felt in danger, mainly due to guilty conscience and fear of reprisals. They followed the French army to the French ships, hundreads of miles away in Iskenderun, so that they could esvcape to France. They fled on foot over snow in their thousands. More actually died from freezing or illnesses trying to make their way to the ships through ice/snow bound country on foot (temperatures in Eastern Anatola at that time can be anything from -5 to -25 deg Centigrate).

The figures of death were 50-60,000 as recorded at time. I remember in 1970 when this was brought up again, the claim was "over 100,000", then in 1980's it became "hundreds of thousands", 1990s heard of "over half a million" & noe we hear "more than a million"!

Those armenians who stayed in modern Turkey have had no problems afterwards. To this day they enjoy their freedom of religion and most are still wealth businessmen

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 14:43

Who really knows what happening during the tempest that raged in the world at that time ? Everyone has there own version of the truth and the mists of time have clouded the issue !

mahdel


Joined: 28/05/2009
Posts: 255

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 16:58

This proposed french law is exceedingly stupid, but I think we can agree that there was definitely a mass slaughter of Armenians. Does this mean there was a genocide? As Ian said it's largely a point of semantics. I can see why the Armenians are upset about it and have every right to be but this was nothing like the Holocaust, the denial of which deserves punishment IMHO (one week spent in the camps themselves ought too do it) but you can't really punish people for being idiots. To be honest I think in its current position of massive power in the region Turkey can basically answer or ignore the question as it pleases. Let the French types of the world waste time and money interfering in century old conflicts they werent involved in. Turkey and Armenia will put this behind them with trade, not French censorship law.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 17:11

As someone who lives in France, I am sorry to say this has more to do with the election and pandering to racism.

The French constantly deny or distort history. look at Algeria, or to the role of troops from the French Magreb who were key to French forces liberating Paris in WW2. The French overplay the importance of there own contribution in the two world wars. and underplay that of the allies. Sarkozy makes one gaff after another he has managed to insult the Brits, the Turks, the Irish the Spanish and a host of others.



Sadly his likely replacement Hollande is even worse!

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 17:59

Not only the Armenians. Whether or not you believe the details in the link below the fact is it shaped the attitudes of Greeks (including Greek Cypriots) towards Turkey. The consequences of these actions had a profound effect on the aspirations of Greek Cypriots - they wanted the protection of Greece from Turkey and sought ENOSIS. Naturally the Turkish Cypriots wanted security as well. At different times since 1960 both sides have suffered at the hands of the other, it's time for a truce and a fair and just settlement of the Cyprus problem, Cypriots should not have to wait another 60 years.



http://cghr.rutgers.edu/projects/greek_genocide.html

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 18:09

The Macedonians were occupied and oppressed by the Greeks after the collapse of the Ottoman empire.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqBsJvpfzM



Most colonial states have brutal histories.

BizziLizzi


Joined: 02/08/2011
Posts: 855

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 19:37

Speed reading I saw the title of this post as "was there ever AMERICAN genocide in Ottoman Turkey?" !!!!!!

I was about to reply - not to my knowledge but the Americans are not innocent of killing people, even in their "own" country ask any native American!



It is a case of "let he who is without sin throw the first stone". The history of the human race is full of one nation fighting and killing and sometimes trying to eliminate another, with various degrees of real or unsustainable justification .



In 1066 a Norman (kind of Frenchman) Duke invaded "Britain", killed the King (by an arrow in his eye) and many of his subject brutally, drove many to the extremes of the country (Cornwall and Wales), took over the land and populated it with a "master race " of Normans reducing the remaining natives to the status of serfs. No one can now lay claim to be of pure "British" stock.............. So was it genocide and should we ask the French to apologize?

rocking


Joined: 05/11/2008
Posts: 421

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 19:40

I saw the vote on this subject then heard Erdogan speak about it. I think he said the French Parliament has 577 seats and only 10% of the parliamentarians were there for the vote, even then not every one of them voted for this to be passed - Erdogan thanked all those who did not vote for the bill to be carried and those who did not turn up. He then went on to say what he would do about this i.e. no more army/airforce/navy exercises with the French, any military planes landing on Turkish soil would have to have special dispensation. He also reiterated that he had offered the French to go through the archives in Turkey re this subject and no one had taken up the offer. He also asked the French to look at their 'human rights' around the world - good speech.

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 20:22

Very interesting thread. I have been meaning to learn more about this Armenian/Turkish conflict, never knew the French where there too. This has spured me on to know more. My East German schooling in history was very one sided and limited.

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 20:30

If you didn't study history under the guidance of qualified lecturers and professors, never mind, read the posts in his thread. And give your "opinion" from Wikipedia. Tsk.

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 21:52

Ah yes, only listen to qualified teachers and then absorb their bias instead of thinking for yourself and exploring all sources.



The pomposity of the "professions". Bah!

Ed1957


Joined: 03/09/2011
Posts: 377

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 21:56

So how does this fit with the French ethos of legaity/fraternity/equality or whatever?

Cobbler


Joined: 15/11/2009
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 22:40

Mess 23, Dunno but the French ethos certainly does not apply to one part of Cyprus that's for sure.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 23:01

interesting article abt French WW2



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7984436.stm

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 23:56

On a TV program I watched during the French parliment meetings on the concerned day, there was a senior Turkish historian from a certain university who provided documentary proof from the Ottoman records. The documents were showing the population/distribution of Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Jews, Arabs in every town and village in the area. Refering to the towns and villages where a "million" people were supposed to have been killed, total number of Armenians did not exceed 400,000 - 500,000 in the region!

According to the map of a census in 1897 showing total population of Turks, Greeks and Armenians residing in the whole of Turkey, as around 1,000,000. see:

http://tr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dosya:Prorportions_des_populations_musulmanes_grecques_et_armeniennes_en_AsieMineure_d%27apres_la_statistique_du_livreJaune.png&filetimestamp=20090304163756

AND more than half of that included the Armenians who lived outside Eastern Anatolia. Minus those who left for France & left alive?

bigOz


Joined: 29/09/2010
Posts: 1244

Message Posted:
06/01/2012 23:58

Correction to second paragraph above; The total population of Armenians in Turkey was around 1,000,000...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/01/2012 16:01

Turkey has threatened to build a monument to 'Algerian genocide' outside the French embassy in Ankara.



They will erect a statue in memory of Algerians killed during the colonial era if next month France s National assembly passes a law making the denial of Armenian massacres during the Ottoman rule.



They will also change one of the street names in Ankara from its current name 'Paris street' to 'Algeria street' and to change the Turkish spelling of a street named after Charles de Gaulle to the name of an Algerian hero.



Looks like it has backfired on Turkey:



Algeria has reacted angrily to its history being drawn into the dispute. The Algerian President has called on Turkey to stop making capital out of Algerias colonisation

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/01/2012 16:32

msge 28



correction



They will erect a statue in memory of Algerians killed during the colonial era, if next month, Frances National assembly goes ahead and passes a law making it an offence to deny the Armenian genocide.

Visitor


Joined: 19/08/2010
Posts: 492

Message Posted:
11/01/2012 16:42

Not sure its backfired. True the Algerian pm Ahmet Oyahyan has criticized Turkey but he is very unpopular and seen as a Francophile. His former coalition partners and the opposition parties have all rallied behind Turkey and are supporting Turkey demanding that France apologise and the issue of reparations is also on the cards.



I think the role of governments should be to encourage discussion and Turkey had committed to an international conference when French FM Alan Juppe visited Turkey prior to the French parliaments decision.



The truth is this is abt Armenian votes in France and pandering to anti Islamic racism. The French govertment is desperate to win in a country when the far right are only a few points behind the main stream parties.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/01/2012 18:58

msge 30



Very informative. Thank you Visitor

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
12/01/2012 02:30

Whats Algeria got to do with the question of whether there was Genocide of Armenians or not.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
12/01/2012 07:55

"Whats Algeria got to do with the question of whether there was Genocide of Armenians or not."

Because the French Government are posturing over the deaths of Armenians in 1919 and ignoring their own culpability over deaths of Algerians under their own rule. That's why.

It's a question of balance and as has been pointed out above the regrettable deaths of Armenians does not fit the description 'genocide' a term all too readily bandied about these days.... Just like 'ethnic cleansing' is a much misused term in Cyprus.