The Common Denominator

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 11:31

Being human we are each very highly diverse characters, but we are also intimately connected in that we are but one species. We are all part of and dependent upon one earth and we are all products of the same evolutionary journey.

Why is it that we have Wars and arguments instead of just getting on with one another?

truffles808


Joined: 16/10/2007
Posts: 183

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 11:40

greed [money] and religion

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:09

biq question Bill



'do you make fear the target of your thoughts or do you fully concentrate your mind on love'



'the biggest gift we can bring to the world is to get our own shit sorted' - Wendy Palmer

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:12

in my opinion it would have to be power and religion.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:14

i think that peoples views come from a number of things.

parents, social back ground, religious back ground,life experiences ect ect.

shaping people differently.

then add good old human nature and you have it.



i was listening to a guy on tv talking about drugs in sport.

he said they will try to combat it but it was human nature for people to cheat.

i think he was right.

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:15

As well as previously mentioned, jealousy and Insecurity.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:19

The mind boggles as to what we are evolving into.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:22

a product of our own success's and failures.

with the loss of basic values.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:27

msge 7



Bill, i think we are moving in the right direction, albeit very slowly. If you want to really know how the world works then I encourage you to read Ken Wilber and Clare Graves (IMO)



http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/spiral/?ppc=gg-thm-spiral

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:28

Do you think in time we will hate our own families. That we will cheat and kill them?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:45

i think in some cases its not far off.



it makes me wonder how the parents of people who commit terrible crimes feel about their offspring?

i know you would always love your own kids but how would you go on doing so if they had commited something dreadfull.

it must be very hard for them.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 12:47

fire starter, would you stand by your children no matter what they had done?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 13:44

i don't think i can answer that.

until it happens i don't think you would know how you would react.

it was also be based on the circumstances.

murdering someone in selfdefence, i could forgive.

something like being a child molester i could not.

(thankfully my boys haven't ever done anything drastic.)

Chicken Run


Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 16:33

politics and religion!

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 18:25

firestarter, I agree. It depends on the circumstances.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 19:44

fire starter



Wars are generally engineered by people for self-interest and those who should know better... Not by the poor blighters who end up at the sharp end... i.e. not by the poorly educated or belligerent but by the elite seeking wealth, influence and power...



If history teaches anything it is that war causes more problems than it solves..



Certain battles have to be fought of course, especially when an unequal force for evil determines to committ acts of an speakable nature...



I don't think anyone argues that the Allies were wrong to resist the rise of Hitler's Fascism...



Let's hope 'never again' now means never...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 20:23

What better example than buying property in the north of Cyprus? Some types of people see Greek property going cheap and buy it, not caring a damn about the legal owner. Other types of people know they are not like that, have a problem with it and will only buy legal property that was not taken by force.



Some people buy knock-off goods which they know have been stolen and realise very well that by buying the property they become party to the theft. Others see this as criminal and immoral behaviour and only buy goods through legal and authorised channels.



Black or white, good or bad. We all make the choice and stand to be judged accordingly.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 20:26

Pike,



This is a very poor attempt to turn a thread to suit your agenda even for you...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 20:50

Oh, and a better example by far would be policital activists encouraging their minions to commit acts of terrorism to further their own power seeking agendas....



To accuse those buying property in the north of being the cause of warfare is despicable... and if you were a gentleman you would withdraw it...



I'm not holding my breath...

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:17

Groucho msg 19,



Minions like these, maybe?:



The handy excuse used by Turkey to further her aim of partition was the "oppression" of the Turkish Cypriot minority by the Greek Cypriot majority.



Denktash himself, in an interview to the London "Times" (1.20.78) admits that he had organized the TMT saying:

"I had to create the TMT in order to coordinate those individuals who were going around doing things."

"I had set up the TMT with a few friends...Everybody thought that I was the leader, but I was not. I was political advisor. Immediately after forming it I handed it over... The leaders were former army officers from Turkey."



Emin Dirvana, then Turkish Ambassador to Cyprus, explains what Denktash means, in an article in "Milliyet" (5.15.64)



"...on the 7th of June, 1958, a bomb had been planted in the Turkish Press Office in Nicosia by persons who, as was established later, had nothing to do with the Greek Cypriots. The Turks of Nicosia were then incited..."

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:19

In an interview given by Denktash to the British television channel ITV for the programme "Cyprus: Britain's Grim Legacy", he said:



"There was an explosion at the information bureau of the Turkish Consulate. A crowd had already gathered there, a crowd of the Turkish Cypriot community. And they almost immediately decided that Greeks had done it and they were swearing vengeance against the Greeks and so on." "The explosion started a night of riots in Nicosia. Turkish Cypriots burned and looted Greek shops and homes. Soon came counter-attacks and the fighting spread round the island. Later on, a friend of mine, whose name must still be kept secret, was to confess to me that he had put this little bomb in their doorway in order to create an atmosphere of tension so that people would know that Turkish Cypriots mattered."



The climax of the "holy indignation" which Ambassador Dirvana refers to, was the massacre of eight Greek Cypriots and the serious wounding of five,

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:21

The climax of the "holy indignation" which Ambassador Dirvana refers to, was the massacre of eight Greek Cypriots and the serious wounding of five, near the village of Geunyeli on 12th June 1958, five days after the explosion.



http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=denktas+little+bomb+nicosia&meta=





Just so people can make up their own minds about intercommunal troublemakers....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:29

;-)



Let 'em at me.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:39

I'd like some time to go through these responses before I respond. Speak to you in the New Year

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:45

What has this got to do with claiming that ex-pats buying homes here were a cause of war?



Remember the subject of the thread is what common denominators lead to war... not, what happens afterwards...



One of the biggest catalysts is disinformation... something of which you are somewhat of a master.... and you a journalist... why am I not surprised?



Luckily for the World now that we have the internet it's no so easy to promote one side of the facts to suit a skewed agenda... Eventually people find out and see lies of omission for what they are...



I find your answer a bit of a side step...



Suzanne,



What no "Sooooo true..."? ;¬)



You two are a bit like Clapham & Dwyer...

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:53

Bet they're off now checking....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:54

Groucho,



You pointed to minions and political activists and I immediately cited the Turkish puppet Denktas as a prime example. Not only that but I showed you how the old troublemaker had mates plant bombs deliberately - and as far back as 1958 - so the Greeks would get the blame and the Turks would riot against them. Which is exactly what happened with the resultant killings.



As you say, lucky for the internet so people can look stuff like this up for themselves and not rely on BB propaganda.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 21:57

What has this got to do with claiming that ex-pats buying homes here were a cause of war?



Do I sound like Jeremy Paxman...?

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 22:48

Greed and religion are the cause of most toubles

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 22:53

Look at every war or battle since time began and it routes back to religion, usually started by some fanatic or another

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 22:55

Eager,



Whose greed though? You have to look at things like how the world's large armaments companies can give a little nudge here and there to make sure their products are not left unsued....



How the CIA is involved in black (dirty) ops and de-stabilsation activities in various countries whose regimes they don't approve of for purely greed inspired reasons.



I'm not a conspiracy theorist, this is all in the public domain as a result of some very high profile kill and tell confessions from ex-secret service men and whistle blowers inside global conglomerates.

eager


Joined: 23/02/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 23:17

Whose greed? yours and mine i"m afraid, we are all guilty of being sucked in to wanting more and more just to keep up. Bombarded from all sides by people/companies that try to convince us that life would be better if we had their products, but really just wanting to bleed us dry. Anybody who sees through it and does"nt buy into it [mass consumerism] is made to feel odd when in fact these are the ones who will get more [real] satisfaction out of life.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 23:20

Can the Greek anarchists expect some new recruits?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 23:24

As Scooby Doo would say "uuuh?"

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 23:35

Man has always had an inherrant will to perpetuate the species. All things emotive,physical,social and indeed political revolve around this inherrant uncontious mind set.



The desire or need to perpetuate leads to emotive responses such as competition, conflict, greed, intollerance, war.



The evolutionary journey that mankind o is on is simply a manifestation of man becoming a more sucessfull competitor.. survival of the fittest.

kenny



Joined: 26/05/2008
Posts: 405

Message Posted:
10/12/2008 23:53

spot on waz

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 09:27

I have to laugh when I read THE (UNST)ABLE SEAMAN and his echo suzanne.



Everything in their lives seems to come back to "Turkish invasion", "Turkish oppression", "Thieving Brit's" etc etc.



Not a word about the war started by their chums from the South and the thieving Greek's who stole T.C.property and land. It really does make me laugh.

If the little boy in his sailor suit wants to meet up with some Turkish Cypriots who endured the onslaught from the G.C's then I am only too happy to arrange it for him, so he can regale them with his unbalanced and ill informed viewpoint and hear first hand what deprivations were forced on them by his cowardly hero's.



So what about it Little boy in the sailor suit or doesn't the strength of your convictions and arguments outweigh the chips you have on your shoulders?

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 10:42

i think we are all masters of our own destiny.

you will be judge by those choices you make, what ever they are throughout life.

you will also be judged by things outside your control, like colour or race.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 11:44

Msge 20



It was inevitable that a figure like Denktash would join the fray. If it wasn't Denktash it would have been someone else. I have pointed out before, that Systems thinking specialist Barry Oshry found, that their, are predictable patterns in any war, which are played out time and time again with calculable frequency. A radical group from within a minor group will always develop in response to the oppression of a majority group - http://www.peace.ca/terribledanceofpower.htm



msge 34 - spot on Eager. For the economic system to work everyone has to buy in to a big lie "Increasing our wealth will make us happy". There is no evidence that this belief is true whatsover.

The books 'stumbling on happiness' by Professor Daniel Gilbert and 'Affluenza' by Oliver James highlight this fact

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 11:52

i also don't agree that everyone lives the beat the jones's lifestyle.

i know a few millionaires, are they happy, no.

i know people who live a very simple lifestyle and they are happy.



its learning to make the best of what you have.

its not wrong to want more or better, but it doesn't bring long term happiness.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 12:08

msge 37 -Waz said "The evolutionary journey that mankind o is on is simply a manifestation of man becoming a more sucessfull competitor.. survival of the fittest.



If this believe is taken to it's extreme it can work against us. The directors at Enron totally believed in survival of the fittest, dog eat dog. Carles Darwin was a great man, an extraordinary thinker but to wards the end his life he came to realise that he hadn't paid enough attention to co-operation as an essential part of evolution. His views starting to fall in line with Jean lemark Baptiste who lived a 100 years before Darwin. Lemark cited cooperation as a key driver for evolution.

Many brain scientists are collaborating this view. When people cooperate and trust then increased levels of oxytocin are released in to our system. This makes us feel good. Nature has given us an incentive to be cooperative

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 12:11

msge 37 -Waz said "The evolutionary journey that mankind o is on is simply a manifestation of man becoming a more sucessfull competitor.. survival of the fittest.







If this belief is taken to it's extreme it can work against us. The directors at Enron totally believed in survival of the fittest, dog eat dog. Carles Darwin was a great man, an extraordinary thinker but to wards the end his life he came to realise that he hadn't paid enough attention to co-operation as an essential part of evolution. His views started to fall in line with Jean lemark Baptiste who lived a 100 years before Darwin. Lemark cited cooperation as a key driver for evolution.



Many brain scientists are collaborating this view. When people cooperate and trust then increased levels of oxytocin are released in to our system. This makes us feel good. Nature has given us an incentive to be cooperative

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 12:18

ilovecyprus.

i find this interesting because i am one person who has very little trust and i'm fit ,happy and my life is well balanced.

the way i see things is rely on nobody,trust nobody, hence life is great because nobody can let you down.

that keeps me happy!

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:14

Taken from the book the 'mind of the market' by Michael Shermer



A 1996 study on trust in forty two countries, for example, asked people in their native language, Generally speaking, would you say that most people can be trusted, or that you cannot be too careful in dealing with people? The results were as diverse as they were striking. At the low end of the trust scale only 3% of those surveyed in Brazil and 5% in Peru believe that their fellow citizens are trustworthy, compared to 65% of Norwegians and 60% of Swedes. Falling in the middle of the scale were the United States at 36% and the United Kingdom at 44%......

The simple correlation between national rates of invetsment and trust is strongly positive.....The same positive correlation holds for GDP growth and trust"



This is the big problem in Cyprus, it's trust and cooperation. Amend this and things will change

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:15

msge 45



thats interesting Firestarter.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:29

i was having a chat with a turkish girl friend .

i have always said i especially don't trust men who wear suits all the time.

she agrees totally.

now we are from different races, religions and backgrounds but we both feel the same why?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:35

firestarter - whats wrong with Men wearing suits all the time and why do you consider them to be untrustworthy?

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:42

Fire starter you are right not to trust them...



Wearing a suit in bed is definitely dodgy... they obviously want to be elsewhere so I guess you are right....

;¬)

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:46

I agree with Gavin - wearing Armour in bed is not appropriate

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 13:49

msge 50



Thats very funny Gavin

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 18:42

Still waiting to hear whether THE (UNST)ABLE SEAMAN has the courage of his convictions or just like's to say things anonomously????

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
11/12/2008 20:42

The Silence is deafening Little Boy in the Sailor Suit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
12/12/2008 09:22

Clearly then THE (UNST)ABLE SEAMAN in his LIttle Boy Sailor Suit isn't up to it



Why am I not surprised ???????????????????????????????

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
12/12/2008 09:45

past experience is probably why.

bankers, estate agents , lawyers, insurance salesmen ect ect.

sums it up for me.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/12/2008 12:31

firestarter - whats wrong with Men wearing suits all the time and why do you consider them to be untrustworthy?