Wills and Heirs-Who supplies the list of heirs?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:14

When an estate is being set up in Cyprus normally the Mukhtar certifies who are the heirs of the deceased. When the estate of an expat is set up in Cyprus, who supplies the list of heirs living in UK? Any feedback on this will be appreciated.

ismet

ttoli


Joined: 24/03/2007
Posts: 1172

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:19

Solicitors draw up a Will(Average cost £100), though I understand that it is quite easy and cheap to do yourself courtesy of Hans Doelman and/Or the BRS

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:21

Re: Msg 1,



The executor/s of the will.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:22

ttoli,

My question is totally different. Who is going to certify how many children the deceased left behind for example. Certainly not the advocates

In cyprus its the mukhtar but you don't expect the mukhtar to know how many children he left behind in UK.

ismet

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:25

elko,



as in msg 3, this is responsibility of the will executor(s).

ttoli


Joined: 24/03/2007
Posts: 1172

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:26

Ismet bey, I stand corrected

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:28

Clarissa,

The court wants to hear from all heirs before granting someone the right to become an executor. I think you are totally missing my point. Is there an authority in UK similar to our mukhtar here to certify the list of heirs?

ismet

CathW


Joined: 09/10/2011
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:31

A will is made detailing all heirs and what they are to inherit. It is the responsibility of the executor(s) to register the death inform the bank of deceased, if a property is to be divided then they will arrange the sale and distribution of funds where applicable.



Hope this clarifies



Cath

CathW


Joined: 09/10/2011
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:33

I forgot, the executor has to come to TRNC

Clarissa2


Joined: 12/06/2009
Posts: 1476

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:34

Re: Msg7,



elko, I'm not missing any points.In the UK the executor is nominated in the will.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:36

CathW,

In UK I believe one can dispose all his assets with his will as he likes, so the testator can specify who is going to inherit what. However, some heirs may want to challenge the will for all sorts of reasons, so the court even in UK will want to know the names of all the heirs and not just those mentioned in the will. So how does one go about obtaining a certified list of heirs?

ismet

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:44

Clarissa,

An executor may or may not be specified in a will, its simply optional. In either case, one of the heirs may wish to challenge the will based on fraud, coercion etc. So are you saying that the court accepts the "word" of the would be executor?

This is certainly not the case in Cyprus and the court will certainly insist on a certified list of heirs. the emphasis here is on "certified". So when an application is made to court here in Cyprus with reference to an expat, how do you overcome this problem? Does anybody have any feedback on this please?

Deniz1


Joined: 28/07/2009
Posts: 3829

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:45

You can make a check with the Registry of Births Deaths and Marriages to find if the deceased had any children.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:47

Thank you Deniz, I think this is the answer I am looking for.

ismet

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 20:52

I will ask my solicitor friend who deals with Wills and probate.



Off the topic, I posted a thread on opticians and eye tests in Famagusta and I had hoped you would see it and advise



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/85299.asp

CathW


Joined: 09/10/2011
Posts: 36

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 21:01

Ismet



I recently made my will for the apartment I bought. This was done by Naomi Mehmet with my daughter named as executor. There is no requirement to name all heirs(I presume by heirs you include children,siblings and others). My daughter will be responsible for distributing my assets. The will is then lodged with the court and the advocate with me having a copy.

I am willing to forward you a copy of "Guide to making a will".



Cath

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 21:26

Dippersgirl,

Thanks for the offer, I will wait for your feedback. I will have a look at your thread and try to answer it now.



CathW,

I am well aware about the wills and my question was referring to the establisment of the estate and the appointment of executor by the court and how to overcome the formal requirement in Cyprus for a *Certified* list of heirs reqired by the court. I think Deniz above gave the correct answer.

ismet

Tango1


Joined: 19/02/2011
Posts: 1151

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 21:36

Ismet, in the UK a person can leave what they like to whom they like, then can add codicils every other day if they feel like it. It's nobody's business but theirs. After all, its' their jewellery, their house. their money. You also state in the will who you wish to have as executor (s) of the will, who in fact can also be beneficiary of the will. People can contest the will and frequently do, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of money and more often than not they lose. Also of course family members who feel aggreived will try and take an action out to prove the the deceased was of Unsound Mind when writing the will, or had been coerced. Neither of which are easy to prove. Even if the Old Dears have left all their money to The Battesea Dogs Home!!

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 21:45

Tango,

You are quite right about UK. In Cyprus, we locals can give away only a certain portion with our will (the disposable part). The expats here can do what they like as in UK. Other foreigners can give away all their movables but their immovables are subject to same rules as the locals. Strange but that is the law.



However, even though the expats can do what they like with their "jewels", the rules applied by the court for granting someone executorship applies i.e. they need a list of heirs certified by Mukhtars or whoever authorised to do so. There was the crunch of my question: who supplies the certified list of heirs in UK?

Thanks for your input.

ismet

dalartokat


Joined: 14/04/2008
Posts: 734

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 22:25

Ismet, is this what you mean :



http://www.ehow.co.uk/info_8624037_executor-​give-inventory... - Cached

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
08/02/2012 23:44

Dalartokat,

Each country and even some States have their own rules and regulations but the essentials are the same. The Court appoints the Executor and of course takes the will into account. One way or other, all the heirs have to be notified of the proceedingd and everything has to be transparent. If the deceased have any great debts, the heirs always have the right to refuse to accept anything from the estate and thus they also wash off their hands about the debts. Any benefits have to be balanced by any inconvenience such as debts.

ismet

prettynear


Joined: 09/06/2009
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 12:17

Ismet, my husband died intestate in the TRNC four years ago. I had to provide the court with the names, birth certificate copies and passport copies of our two children in order to sort out his estate. The court also asked me to provide two affidavits from people (unrelated to him) who had known my husband for a long period of time (20 years +) certifying that to the best of their knowledge there were no other surviving issue. As these two people resided in the UK, the affidavits had to be drawn up by a solicitor in England and signed and officially stamped by the TRNC Embassy in London and brought out to the TRNC.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 13:38

Prettynear,

Thank you very much for this information, very useful indeed. Of course its all discretionary and the judge has to decide what is sufficient proof or not. Was it not possible to obtain such information from the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages?



Anyway, to make it easy we can prepare the statements for two people who knew the deceased but that should be signed at the TRNC Consulate. Of course the other alternative is to get them to sign it in their town infront of a notary but that is more trouble because the signature of the notary has to be certified further by other authorities-it becomes too complicated. Whether the person had a will or not unfortunately makes no difference in establishing the list of heirs.

ismet

jacko99


Joined: 26/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 13:50

re mess 1 elko is it in relation to dieing intestate ie letters of administration as in uk or with a will

and no named beneficieryrs i am sure in the uk if heirs who were not named wished to contest a wiil woudl just have to show they are children of deceaced but when it is a sitauatioion of intestate and and in my case when my father died and as children we had to apply for letters of administration in uk they just assumed we were the issue as had same surname and we swore on oath we were the only ones to the best of our knolegde and they could not have done a search of births as one of our names was registered different at birth

and changed later in life and the last mess relateing to intestate dieing no letters of admin had to be applied for in uk and how can someone catagorically deaclare they know for certain who are all the issue in a mans case i would say impossible you can only say to the best of your knowledge and as far as muktar is concerned with foreigner had can he say

jacko99


Joined: 26/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 14:00

i mean how can a muktar say say especially he never even met the deceaced i wonderd this when our mother died in trnc a few years ago he looked at our passport and and signed a statement that we were the heirs and never even saw a birth certificate but we were named

but were asked if we had any half brothers or sisters or full for that matter and said no for certain as you woudl with a woman a man more difficult

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 15:02

Jacko99,

Thanks for the information. In Cyprus it does not matter whether the deceased left a will or not. Perhaps the main reason is that the locals and foreigners except British cannot give away everything with their will. Hence the court wants to know all the heirs and the simple way is to get a paper from the Mukhtar and his two mates (called 'aza') to this effect. Of course as you pointed out it makes no sense for the Mukhtar to give such a paper in the case of a foreigner whom he never met. There you are. Somehow, with the help of the judge and with some common sense there is always a way out and the thing is to find the least inconvenient way.

Thanks.

ismet

jacko99


Joined: 26/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 15:26

when you mean his mates you mean his deputies which we had to countersign by going round the village to gather elko and i am sure as lady said before a afadavit under oath from someon one close to the deceased to swear to the best of there knowledge in the uk you can not do a search a such to find out who has what relations a probate research will investigate and build family tree when it is a bona vacatia estate to find heirs and present to officail solicitors office and then the heirs put in a claim so you could say in that case it would be a list i am sure a judge would accepts statements afavdavits in trnc how else could it be done with a foreigner but i suppose a muktar cud easily declare with a local that he would know all heirs assuming they had not been a local in exile ie london hackney camden

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 15:36

Jacko99,

Let me give you an example of how fantastic the local Mukhtar can be. When I was getting married back in 1973, my fiancee asked me to bring papers from UK (I was living in UK at the time) to show that I was single. I thought it was a joke and did nothing about it. But it was no joke. I had been in UK for the last 12 years so the local Mukhtar could not know whether I was married or not. But he knew my parents and upon their word he gave the paper certifying that I was single. The two deputies of the Mukhtar are called "aza".

ismet

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 16:20

Elko, here is her answer:

There is no similar system of certifying heirs in the UK really.

When someone dies in the UK, it is incumbent on the executors of the will to distribute the estate in accordance with the will of the deceased. If anyone wants to challenge the will, the onus is on them to put in a claim within 6 months of the date of the Grant of Probate. So, if you know someone has died, you can lodge a “standing search” at the Probate Registry so that you are informed when such a Grant is made.

Of course, if you don’t know they have died you may have a problem. However, as one of the main grounds for putting in a claim is that the deceased should reasonably have left you something eg a dependent spouse, then you probably are not very dependent if you have not been in contact with that person so as to know if they have died.

con't

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 16:25

Where there is no will, the estate is administered by those entitled under the rules of intestacy and there is a set order of priority. So, first is a spouse, then a child, then parent, then a sibling etc etc. That person or persons will then apply for Letters of Administration (which will give them the same power to administer the estate as a Grant of Probate.) They are then obliged to make enquiries as to the relative heirs and In the absence of any personal information this is done by advertising. We used to advertise in the London Gazette and in a local newspaper. This will cover the administrators’ backs if they distribute and subsequent a beneficiary pops up out of the blue.

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 16:26

cont'd

Obviously, I only know about the law in England and Wales. Any property in Cyprus, albeit owned by a UK national, is dealt with under Cypriot law. It will depend upon where the Deceased is domiciled as to the property in the UK. If they are still domiciled in the UK, it will be dealt with under English Law. However, the determination of “domicile” is a slightly gray area of law. Broadly, it depends upon whether someone intended permanently to reside there forever. If you live in Cyprus but know that one day you might return to the UK, you are still domiciled in the UK. As you can imagine there are a whole host of legal cases arguing one way or the other as evidence.



I hope this is helpful, Ismet

jacko99


Joined: 26/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 16:45

hi dippersgirl i was wondering about non uk domicile ie domicile of choice do not understand where the difference comes for juristriction ie administration purposes or as regards inheritance tax and the hmrc if you put down cyprus adress as usual adress on pa1 form and tick box for non uk domicile it is a different form for tax not iht 205 i think probate registrar might agree domicile of choice was outside england and wales but hmrc have some funny criteria ie whether there is still a property in uk to return to visit on holiday and if all

movable possesions are outside uk including most of money plus residence any foreign assets do not ahve to be declared for probate and that would mean iht but as you say grey area

jacko99


Joined: 26/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 16:57

also i think you say advertiseing in london gazette is the usual way to cover personel reps but the probate registar takes a lot of it from the oath they do that everything is true in the case of distribution under laws of intestate and you have to list relatives on form pa1 if i remenber if some come out of woodwork after probate granted as you know that is why there is personel reps year to allow people to make any claim on a estate

can you tell me if after letters of admin granted with will annexed and one of the administrators does not carry out his duty and distribute with co pr what normally happended did you ever come across this?

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 17:07

Dippersgirl and Jacko, this thread has really been educational and very useful. It may have been over the heads of some members but personally I found it very usefull.

Thanks to all who contributed. Again C44 at its best.

ismet

dippersgirl



Joined: 04/05/2010
Posts: 795

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 20:11

Jacko, the info I posted is not from me, but my solicitor friend in England. She specialises in probate and wills. I can ask her if you are interested

jacko99


Joined: 26/06/2009
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 20:18

yes ok but i can guess what she will say removal of pr thru high court but she might know another way of forceing the issue

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
09/02/2012 21:00

Heir Hunters Association in the UK



http://www.hha-uk.com/



or professional firm that could find and no doubt certify as to relatives of the deceased



http://www.lostkin.co.uk/