Re Orams Case

Aga Buyers A G


Joined: 04/10/2007
Posts: 488

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:05

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7789444.stm



http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/1229601722.86



http://news-en.trend.az/world/wnews/1375084.html

Pearlbayer


Joined: 06/10/2008
Posts: 204

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:09

Doesn't look too promising

littlenige



Joined: 24/12/2006
Posts: 3594

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:14

Advocate General Julianne Kokott has what authority ? is this an opinion an exparty rulling or what ?

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:18

Seriously what does this mean?? It doesnt sound good!

yorkie58


Joined: 16/09/2008
Posts: 245

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:46

Juliane Kokott studied law| in Bonn and Geneva. Subsequent to her studies, she earned the academic title of Master of Laws (LL.M.) at the American University (AU) Washington, D.C., while being on a scholarship of the Fulbright Program. There she also worked as an Assistant to Thomas Buergenthal, judge at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) and former president of the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. She worked as a judicial intern at the Landgericht Heidelberg and the Federal Constitutional Court of Germany (Bundesverfassungsgericht) in Karlsruhe, whilst also being employed at the Max Planck Institute for Comparative Public Law and International Law , Heidelberg. She concluded her doctorate (Dr. iur. utr.) at the University of Heidelberg with the dissertation titled "The Inter-American System for the Protection of Human Rights" ("Das interamerikanische System zum Schutz der Menschenrechte").



Juliane Kokott also earned a diploma from the Académie Internationale de Droit Con

Chicken Run


Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:48

Not sure what this means really... but my understanding is the reason they are delaying the EU decision is not to upset the current peace talks. We just have to hope that Turkey/TRNC don't agree to a settlement that put our properties at risk!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:52

The European court's rulings are binding on EU member states.



But... they have no effective jurisdiction in the TRNC...



Seems like a calculated attempt to supper any chance of a solution being negotiated to me...

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:53

Chicken Run....You said "We just have to hope that Turkey/TRNC don't agree to a settlement that put our properties at risk!"



Unfortunately I feel that any settlement will do just that!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 15:58

I meant to type scupper of course as supper has little to do with it...

Chicken Run


Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:03

No1Doyen... lets hope not. You have to remember that alot of the the ex Greek land in the North is still undeveloped, so they only need to protect the small percentage that has been built on. The only real way I can see a fare settlement being reached is if both sides agree to a compensation package to be funded by the EU/UN etc.



We live in hope!

gillken


Joined: 25/05/2008
Posts: 521

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:03

How come that the ROC have been allowed to abuse their EU membership.



I thought they had been told to deal with land issues prior to entry into EU.



How come they are allowed to get away with this.



I thought they had been told not to misuse their EU status when dealing with land issues between north and south.?



I thought that it had been decided that you could only aquire property belongings from another EU state if there was an international threat

ie terrorisim drugs?



I thought the EU had recognised the TRNC Property Commision as an effective remedy.?



But on the bright side I did have a dream about a week ago that the EU would go this way.

This then proptected GC RIGHTS to be able to go to the Property Commision for compensation.



Otherwise looks like another battle to me, and how will the Banks evict us then?. Lets just give up hand in our keys at the borders and leave. So much for a peaceful life.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:24

I must admit I find the whole thing somewhat amusing that the Greek Cypriots started all the sh*t in the first place, then whine like a whipped pup over the way things have turned out, why does no one take into account the fact that if the GC's didn't try to take the whole island they would still be in their properties and on their land, did the EU court ruling take that into account.

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:28

The point of this is speciic to the Orams and needs clarifying to avoid unwarranted panic and doubt.



The High Court in England were asked by the GC plaintiff to enforce a financial decicion against the Orams in the UK (effectively putting their UK house at risk)

Initially successful this ruling was overturned by the Orams on appeal.

One of the grounds for the overturning was that judgements relating to property in areas outside the control of an EU member state could not be enforced in another EU state. As this was decided on EU law and specifically a protocol in the accession treaty of Cyprus, leave was given to refer to the European Court of Justice.



Cases so referred undergo a preliminary examination by a full time advocate before being submitted with advice to the Judges themselves.



It seems here that on balance the advisor has decided that it is not relevant to the procedure of cross border enforcement where the property at the heart of the dispute is situated.

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:35

Hi, tattlad, save it for the judge, I'm sure you're view isn;t biased by the fact that you

took advantage of a terrible ongoing international political problem and bought land that nobody had a legally recognised right to sell you. I wish you every luck in the future but please, don't have a go at innocent people who have lived in Cyprus for far longer than you, for whom their ancestral home means everything.

mishmash


Joined: 05/05/2008
Posts: 336

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:43

sounds worrying. Why is it they never mention that Turkish cypriots fled north from the south its always about the greek cypriots fleeing the north - same old story. Is the Advocate General of greek heritage?

Harold2555



Joined: 19/04/2008
Posts: 1139

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:43

The reasoning behind the advice seems to be as follows

1) there is a judgement recognised as valid in the courts of an EU member

2) the plaintiff in that action wishes to register that judgement in another EU state where the defendants have property.

3) The High Court in the UK mislead itself in looking behind the Nicosia Judgement in that respect.



Now it seems to me that there is a logic to the arguements above but it is like having your cake and eating it!



This would therefore only be a problem for people in TRNC who have property in the UK or another EU state if the Judges confirm the advice given.



This is a matter before the European Court of Justice, not the European Court of Human Rights, so the validity or not of the property commision is not relevant.





Paul

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 16:57

HI all it still looks very worrying to me, i hope and pray that gunes mentiz will find the way but he was born in paphos, i know him and trust him but will that be taken into account on judgement day please dear god lets have justice for these people and all of us here to have our hearts in peace. we all want to leave in peace some of us to make a living but my heart and my prayes go out to the ormans. we are one of the agasage and know we will never get our home, this we have written off not because we can afford to thats why we are stil trying to make a living but to try and make it right in anyway we can for all the others

Pearlbayer


Joined: 06/10/2008
Posts: 204

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:00

Exactly Mishmash, how much land is there in the South that belonged to the TC'S as compared to Land in the North owned by GC's

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:04

this would set a precendent that as Hold2555 states may not affect all of those who bought GC land just yet, will surely do so in the future.

@mishmash, again, save it for the judge, both TCs and GCs have suffered, both deserve the right to enjoy their properties and lands if they so wish, your gamble on a cheap retirement or holiday home is surely a secondary moral consideration?

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:04

@Pearlbayer, far less than you would hope for.

It's a hopeless plea anyway, TCs and GCs have got to work this out and will do so, but I don't think your optimistic gambles on a political issue will be taken into consideration.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:13

ezman. Where do you have land?

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:14

Ezman i find it strange that you have suddenly appeared!!

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:18

Ezman whats your view on the fact that Maranites who were here before Greeks and Turks, had land taken from them by the afore mentioned ?

Chicken Run


Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:18

Do you own property on the island Ezman?

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:19

Msg 22 it could be another PP alter ego.

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:31

@No1Doyen@Chickenr Run - on the old Nicosia/Larnaca road north of between yeri and tymvou, very little, not concerned about it, just interested in the solution of the Cyprus problem.

@lovingthesun - my visit was spurred by the Orams announcement, I did a search for 'north cyprus forum'

@tattlad - we're talking about internationally recognised legal title deeds to land

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:39

Msg 26

@tattlad - we're talking about internationally recognized legal title deeds to land





I for one can not see Turkey opening themselves up to thousands of lawsuits which is what will happen after the TRNC emphasis on the T, gave thousands of Brits permission to buy, and especially after they said they would guarantee the titles.

That's why I think this whole re unification thing is a charade.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:44

ezman - are you Greek?

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:45

well yes, I quite agree tattlad, but it's all about what Turkey wants, not GCs, TCs or Brits (or Maronites!)

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:47

@No1Doyen, I don't class myself as Greek or even Greek Cypriot, though I can speak the language. I regard myself to be Cypriot, not for political reasons, but because I think it encapsulates the melting pot of different cultures I see in the mirror!

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:43

I am not worried at all, as no one is taking my HOME from me NEVER EVER. over my dead body as we say.

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:52

@IloveKKTC



You can always move your house onto land you actually own, then you'll be OK. Actually you may have a point (over my dead body), it may be that as part of a solution you are given right of tenency, but then after you're gone, it's back to the rightful deed holder.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 17:57

Msg 29 If you are indicating Turkey's wish to join the EU I think you'll find it's a two way street, America and the EU want Turkey in as much as Turkey wants to be in.





Ilovekktc Msg 31 we will all be with you on that one, if we have to start a war to protect what we have so be it, and anyone who wants to cross swords with us Brits would do well to have a good look at our pedigree in that department.

lovingthesun


Joined: 13/11/2008
Posts: 61

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:00

Lets not forget an Englishman and his castle, not many people are going to willingly hand their keys over to some Greek who claims it is theirs. Ruiling or no ruiling it would be a total disaster and alot of blood shed.

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:01

@tattlad, Turkey doesn't seem that bothered so are you saying Amercia and the EU feels the same?



And now you're declaring war, when all else fails, logic, reason and sense for example, you can always wage a war

But you and whose army? You don't seriously think the British government will look after you?

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:07

Msg 34 you got that right, thats why the powers that be in the EU had better look very closely at what they want as a solution, or they may open up an even bigger can of worms.

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:08

@lovingthesun

Castle? Sandcastle more like..or how about castles in the air? What hatred for the rightful owner of the land you have, presumably you're living there equally out of sympathy for the Turks as your greed? Of course!

ezman


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 10

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:10

My short lived life on this forum is over you'll be pleased to hear.

You can now go back to your war, castles and hatred of the truth. Good day to you all.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:13

Msg 35, esman you are obviously Greek, it's common knowledge that USA want Turkey in the EU as a buffer zone for the middle east and what the Americans want the Europeans want too (apart from the Greeks) as for starting a war, it's what we British are good for, and if there is a few thousand British in Cyprus willing to fight for what they have, believe me the British government will step in somewhere along the line and it will not be to fight their own.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:21

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/10597068.asp?gid=244



The EU court's top legal adviser on Thursday backed the right of Greek Cypriots to reclaim properties in Turkish Cyprus that they abandoned after Turkey's military intervention, and which were later sold to foreigners, AFP reported.



The European Court of Justice advocate general, whose opinion is not binding but is usually adopted by the EU's courts, supported the claim of a Greek Cypriot to receive restitution from a British couple who built a holiday home on land he left.



In 2005 a court in Nicosia ordered Linda and David Orams to demolish their villa, built on land they purchased from Turkish Cypriots, and pay compensation.



The property’s former owner, Greek Cypriot Meledis Apostolides took the case to a British appeal’s court in order to have the order enforced.



The British ccourt sent the case to the EU court in Luxembourg for a ruling on the complicated issue of whether the ruling by the Greek Cyprio

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:22

court is applicable in the Turkish north.



Advocate General Julianne Kokott said that "a judgment of a court of the (southern) Republic of Cyprus must be recognized and enforced in other (EU) member states even where it relates to land in northern Cyprus".



If the EU court accepts the advocate general’s reasoning then many in the island's south will have an enhanced legal claim on their former properties.



Cyprus has been divided since 1964 when Turkish Cypriots were forced to withdraw into enclaves. In 1974, Turkish army intervened on the island after violent attacks targeted Turkish Cypriots. Property issues remain one of the sticking points in the renewed peace talks which re-launched in September.





That's how the Turkish press sees it.



_________________

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:22

Look as I said before, Turkish army will never withdraw its troops out of the TRNC. TRNC is protected by the Turkish Armed forces who are protecting the state 24 7 days a week with the lastest arms.





There will never be an Cyprus solution. The Greeks want to dismantle any turkish cypriot state, they talk of one state, one nation, one nalionlity. It will never work. Never.

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:19

Yes i agree with you after i die it will go to the rightful owner my next of kin.

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:19

Ezmen he dose not need to rely on the Brithish Government he's got Me and Thousands more like me.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:26

did I miss someone, never got the chance to banter

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:27

Msg 42 I think you have it in a nutshell, it sticks in the throats of the GC's because deep down they know it as well.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:27

Looking on the bright side, Hurriyet changed AFP's wire copy to substitute "invasion" with "intervention", and "Cyprus has been divided since 1974" for "1964"..



I hate it when newsdesks change honest copy for political spin. They'll be saying it's legal and safe to buy refugee property in north Cyprus next.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:32

Msg 47, I've got new for you semen they already have.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:37

Chicken Run msg 10,



You talk about "ex-GC land" - but the reality is first a British judge and now the EU's top legal advisor have ruled that abandoned property in the north still belongs to the Greek Cypriots.



You then propose an EU/UN compensation bail-out, but why would that happen when the compensation is already sitting there in the shape of holiday homes ready to be taken over or demolished as the legal GC owners see fit?

windmill


Joined: 06/07/2008
Posts: 143

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:40

Tattlad,

Would they,not sure ,but think its the website of the British embassy,they say we do not reccomend buying in North Cyprus,something along those lines

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:49

mishmash: "sounds worrying. Why is it they never mention that Turkish cypriots fled north from the south its always about the greek cypriots fleeing the north - same old story.



"Is the Advocate General of greek heritage?"



Your final sentence is typical of TRNC paranoia - if things don't go your way it must be a Greek plot. FYI the ruling came from the EU's top legal advisor who sure ain't Greek.



And it's only worrying to people who gambled by ignoring all the warnings. It's excellent news most of all for the GC refugees, but also for owners of legal Pre-74 title properties who should see a good rise in values. It's also good to think of more Cypriots and fewer Brits in the neighbourhood.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 18:50

Msg 50, they don't recommend you go to war torn areas etc, but hey are still duty bound to help you as a British citizen if you do, and if there are thousands of British citizens fighting to save their investments it's a certainty they'll have to get involved.

But its all bullsh*t anyway because Turkey are never going to take the troops out or give the TRNC up, FACT.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:06

Msg 52,



The British Embassy will provide consular assistance but does not get involved in upsetting the host country, especially when legal judgements have been made. UK officials will help people claim welfare benefits back home (if they are entitled to them) or get on the council housing list and that is it.



The British government is not duty-bound to help anyone who bought something they had no legal right to. Do people who lose a civil action and have their home repossessed go whining to the government? Of course not. You're on your own.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:09

Tell that to all the other countries we've been in, including this one.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:11

On my own? thats funny, last time I looked over my shoulder there was about 40,000 troops behind me

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:15

And thankfully their uniforms are not as daft as yours

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:18

tattlad,



I'll leave it to the moderators to deal with your personal abuse.



Where abouts is "your" property, BTW?

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:21

I'm not telling you, you could be a GC infiltrator, but I'll give you a clue its near Esentepe.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:33

Obviously the Hellenic Navy uniform didn't supply you with any clues. Esentepe? Don't you mean Ayios Amvrosios, where lots of Greek Cypriots lived? Not many Turkish titles down that way...

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:55

There will be a lot of worried people now who have houses on esdeger land many of which do not even have the deeds.



If people have ignored advice of the UK foreign office and also took independent advice then they would not have too much to worry about.



Another judge states that the legal owner is the GC refugee when will people who bought this land wake up and smell the coffee?

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 19:55

let me get this straight...what does an EU court have to do with the TRNC?

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:09

Who respects who these days? Were there any UN resolutions to enter Iraq? How about what Russia had done to Georgia? In this life its all about Power. The Turkish Armed forces are one of the most powerful in the world. They do not care what the EU or the UN says. The Turkish army is also very different, it has overthrown many Turkish governments. Turkish Army likes Cyprus and they have always liked Cyprus. No matter if the Turkish government or the Turkish Cypriots want, they first have to gain the Turkish militarys approval. This is how it works. As far as the Turkish army is concerned, the half of Cyprus must remain Turkish. Aftter all, its an very important strategic area.

reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:13

oh well, glad its all sorted now.

Makes you wonder why we had years of talks to try and resolve this mess, the Anan plan, UN intervention, 40,000 turkish soliders, when all it took was a European court ruling to solve the property issue.



I suppose we can all get back to 'normailty' now.

Greeks get all 'their land back', Brits and Turks all head home with nothing and Turkish Cypriots get back to living under Greek rule until they are slowly pushed out of Cyprus altogether.



And all coz Kokott says so!



Repro

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:30

hi pilgrim i dont hink we will ever have the chcoice when you get people like that howevever they do leave room for discussion dont they we havent spoken before but i almost agree with you LOL lillixxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:35

well i almost di till i read all other msgs msg 29 i found intersting x

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:41

Zanny: "let me get this straight...what does an EU court have to do with the TRNC?"



The TRNC is only recognised by Turkey. The ECJ ruling today effectively reinforces that what you call the TRNC is in fact the Turkish-occupied part of the Republic of Cyprus - part of the EU - and even though EU norms were suspended, court judgements relating to the "TRNC" can be enforced elsewhere in Europe.



So if you have bought "exchange" property in the north and you refuse to hand it over, the legal Greek Cypriot owner may be able to take you to court in the UK and sue you for your British home, freeze your bank account, arrest your wages and seize your assets. This has yet to be ratified, but they usually follow the rulings of the Advocate General.



This is the crucial bit:



Advocate General Julianne Kokott said: A judgment of a court of the (southern) Republic of Cyprus must be recognized and enforced in other (EU) member states even where it relates to land in northern Cyprus."

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:44

once you crack an egg you can never put it back together so those of you who wish for a united Cyprus keep hopeing!!!

LilleJoe


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 20:47

Hi to everyone,



Just so that you all know what is going on.



Some "members" here are also cyprus-forum members and have only joined to cause trouble, they even boast about it on their own forum.



This is what one of them said, he uses the name "Pike" here.



[quote]I've been watching this vermin for some time now. Kudo's on the members called Pikey and Suzanne over there who painstakingly remind them of these realities every day.



Pikey is a member here, can you guess who he is?[/quote]



Check this out.



http://www.cyprus-forum.com/cyprus21267.html



Take care and good luck to all.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:02

Ilove KKTC,



Much as I admire your chutzpah, that won't stop bailiffs in the UK forcing entry to your home, changing the locks. arresting your wages and freezing your bank account. Because that's what this is all about after today's ruling.



The other thing is the nightmare of being in the public eye. As soon as court actions start, local and national papers across the UK will be running stories on "House in the Sun Couple Face Ruin". The Republic of Cyprus has a highly effective PR machine and they will no doubt supply the media with full details of those being taken to court.



This gives us a chance to get photographers and film crews fixed up. In some cases we may have to "turn someone over". That means going through their life history without their knowledge, interviewing family, friends and workmates, checking birth and marriage certificates and matching with the voters roll, etc.



If I was in an exchange property right now, I'd be looking to do a deal with the GC owner.

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:14

PtePike- Here is the deal, whats mine is mine and is staying mine. and if you need someone to fix up i volenteer.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:18

I don't think we will ever see a more perfect example of schadenfreude.

JamesB


Joined: 07/02/2007
Posts: 450

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:22

PP, what happens to the displaced GC family that relocated to the south, didnt have a pot to p*ss in but through using the TC land they had been given, now are fairly wealthy. Their children Know no other land, friends or neighbours. Would a solution mean they would relocate back to there original land in the North, (would they want to?). How would they compensate the TC land owner for the wealth they made (and could not be replaced back to its original state).

Thanks,

JB

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:23

If its a fight they want then a fight they will get.



We're not gonna give up this hard earned land just because someone thinks his dead grandfather used to live in my house. Who told them to bugger off in the first place?



The same people that massacred 100,000 TC's in concentration camps just like Auscwitz all over Cyprus.







Post edited for personal insults

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:29

all yhose years of dependance (just another state of Turkey) and many more happy years to come ahead.

spook


Joined: 23/01/2008
Posts: 244

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:37

What may happen when a similar action reaches the E U court for a claim on land or property left by someone who had to move North? I understand that several applications have been made, can we expect thesame result?

JamesB


Joined: 07/02/2007
Posts: 450

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:55

"JamesB, I think you are from another board who goes on about his SIL, wink wink, you already made your whinge,"



Busted welcome to the board.



I can asure you This is the only TRnc board I post on, (You may have seen me on the Land Rovers Owners Club!)



Genuine question that was not directed to you, (unless PP is using an alias, only joking) and was not answered.



Thanks

Jb

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:57

guys

talk ,talk,talk ,yesterday someone said and yesterday someone wrote ,the greeks are going to take our properties away from us in another country if you have one ,legally the british courts can no nil ,and have already said they will not and cannot ,old news .

ask yourselves if the greeks could take property from the north ,then why go too all this trouble.

no one will take your properties in the kktc or wherever ,far too complicated for the british courts and a hundred ways too get around it ,too much legal red tape,too many loopholes .



talk is cheap and its all the greeks have , cuckoo land



the kktc is turkish and turkish it will stay even if we are not recognised for another 34 years .



the way foward is compensation .compensation,compensation,for both sides.

lets live and let live.



this is not a simple matter ,so when you hear these simple answers,then simply forget it.



musin

long live the kktc

JamesB


Joined: 07/02/2007
Posts: 450

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 21:58

Moderators on their Christmas do tonight are they?

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:00

Musin, thats easy for you to say. You haven't invested everything you have in a kktc property.



I

IloveKKTC


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:01

The Truth



Part one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAP7KuAfvWY&feature=related



Part Two: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIwBDP7WWrY&feature=related

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:08

This really is a double edged sword. The Orams can now be forced to pay the compensation to the Greek owner by a UK court or face having their UK home sold to pay it & the legal costs. Not good for NC builders or the NC government. Any EU based person with a holiday home in NC on what was Greek land will find themselves in the same position. This renders their NC property not only worthless but a liability. The same must apply however for anyone in a similar position with a home in the south which is on previously Turkish owned land. That land is also worthless and a liability. Could this prove to be a massive incentive for a solution to the Cyprus problem?

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:16

Its easy for the greeks to do this cause they have nothing to lose. The greek on tc land rents his property from the govt and isn't allowed to sell it. we're not in the same boat get that through your heads. They;ve got nothing to lose on this.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:16

zanny

i have invested and i am not in the slightest bit worried ,because i have not seen anything too worry about ,like i say even if the british courts took up the challenge ,and believe me its a challenge ,there are many loopholes too get around it.

if all that fails ,then watch what the kktc goverment will do,think back to the start of the orams case,remember what they offered the orams back then.



the kktc stays turkish .



musin

long live the kktc

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:17

i hope you're right musin inshallah

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:35

suzanne, why do you laugh at other people's misfortune?

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:46

It doesn;t matter, the tc's alongside the Brits will fight for this land which is ours now.

notthereyet


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 113

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:52

You are feeding their joy by reacting to their baiting. The cackling knitting hags at the feet of the guillotine springs to my mind. Nothing has been decided yet and if things go badly the turkish backed TRNC gov will have to shell out and i am sure they will not do that. Maybe reunification was never really going to happen and if the two top men dont put this little crisis to bed now then the EU will have shot themselves in the foot by this early release and they may as well go home.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:53

I hate to be cynical but suzanne may have a point ('dream on'). I fear that the TRNC government & TC's will only stand alongside the Brits if it suits their cause.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:00

Suzanne,

You welcome the news but think on to the consequence of a favourable ruling for Mr Apostolides and the flood of claims that may follow.



Properties could be demolished, lands are returned to dereliction, people are evicted, anarchy and return to pre 74 violence would prevail. Ethnic cleansing of villa owners and local villages. This is likely in North and South. The ruling would allow any cypriot to make claim.



Cyprus as an Island, both North and South would fall into decline. The Tourist industry, the life blood of the Island, would be desimated.

Economically the decline will hit everyone earning a living on the Island. Investors and investment would dissapear overnight followed by many good people on the Island who will leave because of the inevitable decline. Just like they did in the 60's



On the whole the future of the Island and not just your asspirations are at stake.

I am sure you will have a different take. I hope that it is more positive.!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:03

bradus: "I don't think we will ever see a more perfect example of schadenfreude."



If effective and even-handed moderation had ensured those with different opinions were not constantly insulted and subjected to mob attack, perhaps you wouldn't be getting the perception of schadenfreude now. Needless to say, the best is yet to come.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:08

musim m



Spot on!!! as usual



Instead of everyone looking for a tree to hang themselves on just remember that EU courts are notorious at giving a verdict on a situation only to be impotent in its execution. Whatever they say always take years..even if they were to put pressure on the UK legal system to consider the possibilities of asset seizure just imagine the fun switched on barristers would have at throwing banana skins... Also if Turkey happens to turn round and say Booo to the EU then that will be the end of it for another 10 years or so.



ReeeeeeLAX everyone

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:17

JamesB msg 80,



If you know your Cyprus history you'll know that thousands of Greek Cypriots spent months and years in Red Cross tents or shanty towns while a desperate social housing project was started. They had left everything behind in the north.



The proportion of TC refugees (tragedy as it was for them as well) was tiny compared with the GC figure of some 180,000. So when the TCs arrived in the abandoned GC villages and towns, there was no shortage of propetry to choose from. Some people were enriched beyond their wildest dreams - and went on to sell seized GC property to gullible foreigners.



As for GCs returning, it doesn't have to be the original displaced person. GC and TC kocans can have several names on them. I'm pretty sure if my mum or dad died never being able to return to their beloved family home, I would be the first to go north, knock on the door and invite the foreign chancers squatting inside to sling their hook PDQ before I seize their home in England.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:18

PP

Effective and even-handed moderation has nothing at all to do with this topic. Please try and keep to the subject matter. You try and justify your judgemental and intimidating behaviour but your chosen words are on view for all to see. They actually say more about you than they do the topic under discussion.



No moderation is needed on this topic it has been interesting to share thoughts and opinions with people with opposing views.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:31

IloveKKTC,



Your Turkish propaganda clip on You Tube starts with: "Since the 1890s England has ruled Cyprus..."



How seriously do you want to be taken?

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:36

Makes you wonder wether the behind the scenes EU masters delibertly released the news to seriously hinder the talks, or up the stakes to focus leaders. However it creates various consequential implications which make a positive outcome to the talks, although now appearing unlikely, even more remote. Also wonder if this has more to do with Turkeys EU bid than the Orams.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:37

Hector: "The same must apply however for anyone in a similar position with a home in the south which is on previously Turkish owned land. That land is also worthless and a liability. Could this prove to be a massive incentive for a solution to the Cyprus problem?"



No, Hector. That's a complete red herring and I suspect you know it. In the south it is illegal to sell TC property and people have been jailed for trying it. TC houses are rented to GC refugees and their dependents, and the TC refugees are still the legal owners. So property in the south doesn't come into it.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:48

wackyjim: "musim m Spot on!!! as usual.



If you are taking seriously the comments of a partitionist London-based Denktas supporter whose views are at odds with the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots, how out of touch does that make you?



In a falling TRNC property market where around 80% of holiday villas are poised to become worthless and in fact a heavy liability, you should be listening to the facts and not what you want to hear.



It wouldn't be a bad idea to go to the RoC land registry, seek out the GC owner of the property you have paid for, and negotiate some kind of agreement whereby you could pay ground rent to stay on, or offer to buy the place and get proper legal title before the rug gets pulled from under your feet.

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:53

Pilgrim



Not sure now if Turkey really does eye up the EU as being attractive and something they would want to be part of. Perhaps Turkey has more to offer the EU ??

If thats the case then its quite possible that as the EU cannot force Turkeys hand in resolving the Cyprus problem with the carrot of membership then the only other route is to destabilise the Norths fragile economy with the threat of thousands of properties being returned to former GC owners.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:55

Agree, similar to one of the consequential scenarios I was imagining.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:57

pike



msg 103



you are either very naive ,



very stupid ,



or very greek .



talk is cheap,just like the property you have bought in the kktc..



34 years the old greek lady has been living in my mothers house ,i have met her ,rent what rent ,the south must owe my mother a fortune.



musin

long live the kktc

wackyjim



Joined: 04/06/2007
Posts: 760

Message Posted:
19/12/2008

PP



Maybe you are right...but as has already been mentioned earlier that in its self could be difficult. 34 years is a long time...who owns what? who do you pay? I can already see GC's arguing amongst themselves as to who gets the dosh Aunties ,Uncles ,Granny wee jimmy down the road ....more legal battles ...beam me up scotty

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:03

Musin: "...talk is cheap,just like the property you have bought in the kktc.."



However, my property is pre-74 Turkish title and as of today worth a hundred times more than the exchange places the majority of expats - including you - decided to buy in their wisdom.



"34 years the old greek lady has been living in my mothers house ,i have met her ,rent what rent ,the south must owe my mother a fortune."



If you ma's still around insallah all she has to do is live in Cyprus for six months and bingo - she can claim her house in the south back. It's not like that in the TRNC is it?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:09

jim,



It's worth a go and contrary to what bradus says I'm not crowing over this, but trying to make the facts as clear as I can. I've been involved in Cyprus for 15 years and on the BBs for about five years getting kickings from all sorts for taking the international legal position. This is the time when some people should be thinking about what they've said to me or accused me of, rather than me kick them when they're down.



A peh an' an innin ane an' aw.

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:12

Could i just ask a simple question, if you have a holiday home in the TRNC and have paid in full for the property on esdeger land but still do not officially own the property as you have not got your PTP or Deeds then surely in the eyes of the law the person holding the deeds is still the owner so you could not be taken to court and property in an EU member country could not be ruled against.



Or is this being too simplistic..

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:20

worth a hundred times more ,pike come on you can do better than that,you sound so childish .



there is so much more for you to learn about the turkish yet,



who knows ,wisdom comes with age ,maybe one day thomas.



if the greeks ever get the chance too take back properties and rid of ex pats you will go too,whatever title you have and give it back to a t/c.



but don,t worry the turks will take care of you.



musin

long live the kktc

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:26

saucyboy msg 111,



You may be able to put the brakes on the purchase but surely since you've paid for the place you'd want to take your chances in tracing the legal owner and negotiating. You may be lucky and find out nobody has a claim on the property. Unlikely but not imposible.

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:29

I've been hearing that the GC's have been expecting today for some time now and that 1000's more cases are ready to be taken to court. I'm a UK citizen, how can this happen to an EU citizen?



Its what I said before, the geeks have nothing to lose from this, they haven't sold any tc land. Who the hell is gonna look after ours?? talat??

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:31

PP



Sorry was just asking out of intrest my apartment is pre 1974 turkish title so not worried just curious for all the esdeger guys out there..



Cheers

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:37

So now those without deeds should consider themselves fortunate... humm...

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:37

zanny



the greeks haven,t sold any t/c land .



who are you really,the greeks have sold plenty t/cland and built on t/c land



legal or not.



you have much to learn.



musin

long live thekktc

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:33

It may be simplistic saucyboy....but it is nonetheless a good point well made !

Yes...due to the unique way that the TRNC is run....the majority of us foreign "owners" are still waiting to be the legal owner despite paying in full and actually taking possession (if you are lucky).

Therefore,maybe you are right.....how can the EU pursue you in this matter?

And as the person still holding your title deeds presumably lives in the unrecognised TRNC then they cannot be chased either?

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:41

saucyboy



you have just hit on one of the loopholes ,one of many.





musin

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:46

I don't have a title deed either! I didn't think of that.



Does this mean that the geek won't sue me?

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:16

As much as I may dislike PP's views, he has a serious point this time.

NoNowt


Joined: 09/10/2008
Posts: 68

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:33

RE msg 70 - "If I was in an exchange property right now, I'd be looking to do a deal with the GC owner. "



I admit that I may not know all the issues but I always thought that this must be the way to go as most of the property in question was just land and nothing else. If there are now buildings on it, nobody gains by having them knocked down.



On one side the Greeks may feel that the knocking down of buildings is the loss of the current owners and wish to negotiate hard, but there are many other arguments FOR doing a deal.



I also think if the mooted news does become law, then the TRNC government must/should do everything to allow the expats to circumvent the problems by relaxing the regulations and laws currently in use. There are probably thousands who still do not have the deeds to the(ir?) properties. I believe in beating a scam with a scam - so all we need is an easy facility to transfer ownership to people not living in the UK (or other EU countries).

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 02:29

cant sue wont sue its all about greeks they started it and got theyre arses kicked or theyre balls fell of what about the tc has everyone forgot about them greeks would have ethnicly cleansed them like hitler to the jews tcs can claim property in roc but watch greeks try another ploy to stop that thru the eu

LilleJoe


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 08:47

saucyboy,



It just might be that your question can save a lot of people a lot of misery.



I have set the wheels in motion and emailed a couple of lawer friends for their legal advice. Will let you all know when they reply.



The only thing we now have to worry about is the PP and others like him will more than likely report your idea/question to the GC authorities and we all know what that means. Without a doubt the GCs will now frantically try to think of a new trick to hit back with.



I think you are going to be the cause for some sleepless nights for quite a few GCs in the following months to come. ;-)

Chicken Run


Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 09:15

Pike: msg 49



"You then propose an EU/UN compensation bail-out, but why would that happen when the compensation is already sitting there in the shape of holiday homes ready to be taken over or demolished as the legal GC owners see fit?"



If it was part of a wider solution, that went to a referendum, and both sides voted for it... then yes it would be an excellent solution to the property issue. It doesn't matter how many GC win court cases in the EU, they wont get anything back until the day there is a solution. If an agreement is met where everybody, on both sides, goes back and gets what was previously theirs, it will open a can of worms so big no one will know what's going on... and you wont have seen anything if you think the island has problems now!!!!

Chicken Run


Joined: 11/10/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 09:17

Also... am i the only one that thinks it strange that as Ezman leaves Pike appears?? Strange!

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 09:51

anyone know how long we have till the court decision?

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 10:15

I understand it's currently being discussed, could be days. See this link



http://www.topnews.in/eu-judge-rules-against-british-couple-cyprus-property-dispute-299769

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 10:27

So do I need to sell any property I have in the UK now so that they can't get their hands on it?



Sorry for sounding naive but this is serious.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 10:51

The statement said "The EU court's top legal adviser on Thursday backed the right of Greek Cypriots to reclaim properties in Turkish Cyprus that they abandoned after Turkey's military intervention, and which were later sold to foreigners, AFP reported..

The European Court of Justice advocate general, whose opinion is not binding but is usually adopted by the EU's courts, supported the claim of a Greek Cypriot to receive restitution from a British couple who built a holiday home on land he left".



All this adviser has said is that he backs "the right of GC's". Nothing more. GC's actually getting there hands on the property is a different matter. It won't happen, compensation will I'm afraid.

Chessman


Joined: 13/05/2008
Posts: 486

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 10:56

A common sense post, Bill.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:18

I guess anyone with UK property at risk could always put it in the name(s) of the person(s) (sons/daughters?) it would likely be willed to. I am sure there are many ways to protect immovable assets. Bank accounts could always be transferred to the Channel Islands which, although they are part of the UK, are not in the EU.

Harlequin


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:27

http://curia.europa.eu/en/instit/presentationfr/index_cje.htm

PIPIE


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:32

Zanny please do not say those sort of things , i find what you have said upsetting .

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:34

don't say what?

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:40

Zanny don't act the innocent with regard to your racist post which thankfully seems to have now been deleted by the moderators.

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:42

Animals don't belong to races, only humans do.

PIPIE


Joined: 05/01/2008
Posts: 5499

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:46

Zanny post looks like it has been moderated please E-mail me abkellis@hotmail.com cheers.

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:48

Zanny you display the same twisted logic that the Germans applied to the Jews.There is no place for such hatred on this board.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:57

If the EU Court of Justice follows The Advocate General's opinion (which is not guaranteed) then major uninteded consequences would follow.



Firstly the comparatively friendly reunification talks would turn hostile and substantially reduce the possiblity of a settlement particularly as hardline GC's wouldn't vote to support any form of compromise.



Secondly it would open the way for an avalanche of TC claims for land in the south. This could be done either through the ROC courts or the EU courts. TC claims are much easier to impliment as only one party the ROC government control all the properties so there is no complications of service of court documents and having the assets to meet the claims, precident from one succeesfuil claim would easly flow through to all others. The compensation payable would probably be much larger with higher ROC property values and TRNC values would likely be further depressed due to the uncertainty.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:06

In reverse the GC's have to pursue thousand of British and European buyers individually with problems of court documents being served of those living in the TRNC. The legal costs of doing so would be very high and many individuals may have no EU assets worth seizing (or would deliberately ensuring they are put out of reach).



Some possibilty of a collective legal case for the return of all TC properties whose titles are held by the TRNC would also exist but would have to overcome the non recognition of the TRNC. This could be overcome by a transfer to a recognised entity perhaps some form of Turkish or even ROC registered company trust etc.



Basically this whole scenario would expose the ROC to the full burden of paying compensation, plus put them under pressure to help fund GC legal costs to individually fund their own legal cases for TRNC properties.



The TRNC government has no real exposure and Turkey could avoid any by abandoning the EU path.



Aussie

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:16

Your posts will continue to be deleted if they contain racist remarks, abuse or insults.

reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:31

I have a question................



What assets will be seized from mainland Turks living in TRNC exchange properties?



What about all the native Turkish Cypriots living in Exchange properties?



Or will it only be the British that is taken to court?? as they are the only ones who have any assets in another EU country?



Repro

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:35

zanny take a chill pill ,calm down lol.



seriously cant understand what all the panick is about ,nothings changed as the pendulumn swings left then right .



anybody worried ,transfer your house in uk into a family or friends name lol



cant enforce something you dont own



kav

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:38

Is that meant to be a serious way of doing business? Is this what we've come to? Just because of some poxy EU court we have to clown about in order to own a piece of property?



Come and buy property in the KKTC, oh and by the way make sure its registered on your grandmother or else the EU will be after you.

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:40

Moderators I don't know who this guy Zanny is as he only joined yesterday but I'm afraid that unless his racist posts are removed then I'm leaving today.

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:42

racist posts against who?

JimmyG


Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 900

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:54

There you go again playing the innocent Zanny. The Greeks who you wish to see driven into the sea. Continue with your racist rants & I'm happy to leave you to it....... but that's up to the moderators to police not me and if they fail to do so then I'm outta here.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:18

Unfortunately there are problems in transferring ownership of your UK property into a third party name. It won't work for the majority of people.



To reiterate what has been said before, don't panic, you won't lose your home in the TRNC. Yes, you may have to pay some compensation but the majority knew that anyway.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:18

Yet again a serious debate turns into a slanging match with personal and snide remarks which have no relevance to the post.

Come on guys, get a grip, this situation affects us all so should we not all be working together.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:20

Aussie: "Firstly the comparatively friendly reunification talks would turn hostile and substantially reduce the possiblity of a settlement particularly as hardline GC's wouldn't vote to support any form of compromise."



I disagree. This ruling has concentrated minds. It mainly applies to expats with assets in the UK so it won't affect the Turkish Cypriots - who as citizens will have special rights - or mainland Turks who can be removed and/or paid off quite easily. The Greek Cypriots will be delighted that action is being taken over their stolen properties - making them more amenable to a reunification deal - and the Turkish Cypriots will stand aside as they are unaffected and also want a peace deal. The final judgement is likely to be timed to come AFTER a reunification referendum for the above reasons.



The best thing about yesterday's ruling is that it is good news for the ordinary Cypriots and brings them closer to reunification and a better future for their children.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:37

It's all conjecture. One adviser has said is that he backs "the right of GC's". Nothing more. Everyone's guessing, and in some cases hopeing, that the GC's will win the day. Let's all wait and see, you may all be pleasantly surprised. (well the majority of you).

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:45

Pike



A comprehensive property settlement is one of the fundamental planks any Cyprus reunification settlement will be based on (and has been a stocking point in the past). Any major increase in property litigation that can drag on for years does nothing to encourage a deal from those that believe they could get a better result through the courts.



It provides another excuse to avoid making reasonable compromises on both sides.



Also I agree that most TC's and Turkish settlers who don't wish to sell their properties if the EU decides this way will be unaffected. However those that want to sell will have major problems with reduced house prices.



Aussie

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 14:57

IT is a great shame to see so much racist abuse on this thread. Greed, racial hatred and general zenophopia prevail.



What everyone should currently consider, as I have pointed out on other threads, is the inevitable decline and decimation of the whole island economy. No one will be left unafected ROC,TRNC, tile or no title, turkish greek and cypriot alike.

A return to pre 1974 levels of violence, ethnic cleansing and racial discomfort will reflect on the Island in general.

Overseas investment will dissapear on an unprecidented scale. The Island will become a region of conflict with vey tillle chance of a quick resolution.

Values of any fixed property will plumet. GDP of both North and South will fall to all time low.



Be prepared for severe hardship, conflict, fear, violence and possible blood shed.



To ALL factions. How would you like to proceed?

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 14:59

Why would they be affected by this?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 15:47

http://www.brtk.cc/index.php/lang/en/cat/2/news/43466

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 15:49

Oh great! He sounds reaaaaalllllyyyyy confident.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:18

Aussie: "A comprehensive property settlement is one of the fundamental planks any Cyprus reunification settlement will be based on (and has been a stocking point in the past)."



I agree with you. But yesterday's court decision applies to expat foreigners with holiday homes and the like being taken to court for their assets in the UK.



The comprehensive property settlement IMO will still go ahead, but will apply only to Greek and Turkish Cypriots and Turkish settlers allocated GC property. These categories will be helped with compensation because they are national responsibilities.



Expats are a different kettle of fish because they can be sued as individuals in the civil courts. Foreigners in exchange properties do not exist in big enough numbers to be a problem for settlement, which will go on regardless of what happens to expats.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:24

Pike....msg 160....that was both informative and balanced.



Seriously....more of this ilk please.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:56

Cronos,



Thanks for that. But aren't most of my posts balanced?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 18:11

PP msg 160



Your analysis is interesting but not at all what is likley as a solution.

The National reponsibilities ot TRNC apply to all the residents, investors, buisnesses, Turkish Cypriots et al. The TRNC could simply not afford to desert its many buisnesses and investors, they have no reason of advantage to do so



There could not possibly be a selective ethnic cleansing of the region under the auspices of the EU and UN.

The forthcomming judgment is not soley against "ex-pats" it is a judgment upon a point of law.



Property settlement will include ALL and it will be down to the EU to use its clout to ensure that any settlements are reflective of crumstances.



Though the prospect or an Island settlement are today somewhat bleaker.

The outcome that you and some others advocate will without doubt result in a

catastrophic decline in everyones, including yours, living standards, prospects and worth.

kavenkoy


Joined: 10/04/2008
Posts: 1787

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 18:31

re 159.



you back the people in the country you are interested in .

get behind the trnc and support the culture ,embrace change but go with the rules .



if you dont like it opt out ,but stop spouting nonsense and causing panick .



kav

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 18:35

Busted,

Are you privy to information that we are not?

OR Do you sit on the Board of Judges in Brussels?



If neither, then do try and keep to the facts.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 21:40

Waz msg 164,



I uttrely agree with you that the TRNC should have responsibility for all residents, investors and businesses but in reality we are talking about Turkey as the country running the north of Cyprus. I believe Ankara will only adhere to its responsibilities regarding Turkish Cypriots (whom they claim to have been "protecting" for 34 years) and Turkish settlers (whom they planted in north Cyprus as a war crime).



Turkey isn't interested in Joe and Jessie Bloggs who retired to the sun and bought an exchange property. In any case, Greek Cypriots are not likely to be returning to Kyrenia district (where most expats have bought) under any settlement plan. The compensation deals will involve TCs and Turks living all over the TRNC, not in Kyrenia area. So I think expats will be isolated and largely on their own when it comes to property claims made against them.

Harlequin


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 22:57

The Advocates General is not a Judge and this was not a ruling.



The role of The Advocates General is to issue an opinion which the judges will take into account.



http://curia.europa.eu/en/instit/presentationfr/index_cje.htm

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 23:27

Yes, but their lordships usually follow the AG's recommendation, as was stated after it was announced. And it does seem to be one of the more clear-cut and uncontentious ones.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 01:08

PP.



OK your comments are noted.

So who are the Turks most likely to align themselves as allies with.

The GC that are laying claim to property in TRNC

OR

The foreign investors whom have legitimate TRNC title on the same property.



Furthermore,

Ex -pats can have the re-assurance that they, like GC, have recourse to the European Courts for a fair hearing. In particular one that is not before a prujudiced ROC District Court.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 01:37

Busted Msg 167

Thank you for your cofirmation that indeed your post is based upon your own hypothesis and statitistics and not fact.



I am worried for all Cypriots who will suffer as a result of the clear risk that the Island will again decline into anarchy.

Are you worried about that?

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 12:12

"The Roc is full members of the EU, and hence respect eveyones, human and democratic rights. alas the same cannot be said about the northern side."



Seems those rights didn't apply to the Cypriot girl of African dscent who just got beaten up for being dark-skinned and good at netball!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 16:28

WAZ: "So who are the Turks most likely to align themselves as allies with. The GC that are laying claim to property in TRNC

OR The foreign investors whom have legitimate TRNC title on the same property?"



I don't think Turkey will align itself with either GC claimants or foreigners. Turkey will stick to negotiating the peace process and avoid getting bogged down with individual GCs or expats, who after all it has no legal responsibility and who ignored the advice of their own (UK) government.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 16:54

pp



Sorry, beg to differ.

Turkey/TRNC has an inherant and unequivicable responsibility to its populus, irrespective of their nationality, citizenship.

It is very clear that a significant amount of the regions GDP is generated by foreign nationals who have invested in property and buisness in TRNC.



The economic importance of this sector of the populus will ensure that they are very much on the agenda in settlement talks.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 11:04

waz

mr t has already said that it will be a solution for cyprus and all cypriots.

he didn't mention protecting anything for the expats, who have supported the trnc for many years.

it was all about the cypriot people.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 11:10

Rose,

A soution for Cyprus would presumably include the economic prosperity of the Island.

It is clearly the case that ex-pats as well as many other foreign investors contribute signifiicantly and importantly to the Islands GDP.

Both leaders simply cannot fail to neglect the economic implications.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 19:18

re waz 176



Your honour, I knew I was dealing in stolen ( cars/ money / houses...fill the blanks ) but they were stolen a long time ago and I have positively contributed to the GDP of our nation....

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 19:31

Waz: "Turkey/TRNC has an inherant and unequivicable responsibility to its populus, irrespective of their nationality, citizenship. It is very clear that a significant amount of the regions GDP is generated by foreign nationals who have invested in property and buisness in TRNC."



I disagree with you on this. The foreigners are mainly holiday home owners who don't live full-time in the north. They are of no value or interest to Turkey. In fact "their" properties could yet be bargaining chips. The relatively low number of expats who live in the north are not of huge economic benefit to the TRNC economy. The casinos and whorehouses are much more valuable.



In short, foreigners have no rights in the "TRNC" and will be at the back of the queue when it comes to priorities. That's if they're allowed to join the queue in the first place.

Becks


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 130

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 19:38

so you say. What do you kmow about what will hapen , stop making things up , you

know nothing about what will happen none of us do

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:22

pp

Thank you for your comment.



Economic factors will determine the actions of the administration upon these matters. Each and every source of revenue to the GDP has value.

I do not think that you are best poitioned to aportion value or importance to these sources.



Furthermore,

On the "no rights for foreigners" comment. Again you are not well positioned to provide evidence. Many "foreigners " are EU member state citizens and you will be fully aware of EU asspirations on the Island. These foreigners, like yourself, are indeed significant contributors to the economy.



My view is that your post has no substance at all.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:26

Mark, Msg 176.



Your post lacks direction or substance.

I am happy to progess the debate.

Please kindly refrain from such worthless posts

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:41

Waz,



interesting how you only responded to *this* post of mine... there have been a few others where I note you didn't ( couldn't ?!) respond.. ;)



I find this strange as you want to "progress the debate" ...



You know EXACTLY what post 176 was portraying and who it was aimed at... if the cap fits...

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:49

waz

stop debating with these cretins ,talk is cheap .



mark or who ever he is has lost direction ,mainly because his on a fishing trip and the likes of pike or whoever he is ,has validated his hatred for all things turkish,they are not intrested in an outcome ,not a fair one anyway.



they can rubbish the turks and our country and our goverment all they like ,

when it comes too the wire action speaks louder the words ,who knows push people into a corner and it may work to their detriment..





musin



long live the kktc

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:55

Mark,

I am sorry that you take this view.



Post 176 is a response made to member "Rose"

I simply cannot see your logic.



Regarding other posts.

I respond to many posts that offer an input to the debate.

I have found none that I feel unable to respond to. However the perrogative remains with me.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:06

Musin M



I regularly do biz with Turks, holiday there, regularly and have TR / TC mates in the UK and in Cyprus....



Sorry to "burst your bubble"... You sound just like the small minded GCs who think I'm a Turk Lover...;)



Having got your little "outburst" out of the way, would you like to tell us how i've "lost direction" .. Ismet will confirm that I argued that the UK Judge's ruling would end up before an European Court AND that it would "rule" that the RoC judgement will be enforced..



Now, of course, that hasn't happened... YET - but I'm willing to bet good money I will be proved right or crawl back here and say - I was wrong... ;)



My money looks "safe" as it will be a first if an AG's recommendation is ignored...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:18

Dear Waz,





msg 176 - your response to Rose, received a very dry ( sarcastic even) response in from me in 177... As it is disappointingly "over your head" I'll make it simple... How do you think an immigrant criminal who is caught in the UK dealing / selling stolen property would go down stating to the Judge.. " but we contributed to improving the GDP of Britain" ....?



Frankly, I don't think the irony was missed by you... No amount of time can excuse attempts by non Cypriots to take advantage of a "surreal" housing market, by "buying" knowing it the land isn't *really* theirs and the "nation" that hands out the "deeds" isn't REALLY a "nation"..



Now you ( or others) can go off on one about GC propaganda,( and *try* to discredit me) but I assure you the RoC and I aren't on "friendly" terms...



But I do know that buying something that clearly belongs to someone else is ...........

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:24

mark

everyone knew the uk judges ruling would end up before a european court,after all we are talking about greeks here,so you are not clever and as for how many friends you have greek ,turkish or otherwise ,well done .

finally read your own posts ,and see where you have lost your direction.



musin

long live the kktc

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:32

whats that smell? mmmmm think I know, mmmmm yes smells like something I ve trod in . mmmmm definately crap. whos living crap on this board? quite a few it appears.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:36

Mark,

Now that you have made your post clear. I am able to comment.



I am certainly not to appear before any Court charged with theft of anything.

I am not in receipt of any stolen goods and have no record of such.

Your comment can be construed to be libellous but I preffer not to go there.



It would appear that your legal principles have no regard for the posibility of obtaining a solution to the Cyprus problem.



Your strong stance upon legal correctness would serve better in Russia which You and your good lady, I understand have experience.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:42

must check my spelling leaving not living.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
22/12/2008 19:53

msg186 how much do you want to bet

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 01:49

re msg 191 Pilgrim



"whats that smell? mmmmm think I know, mmmmm yes smells like something I ve trod in . "





.....You said it... ;)





Some of us can even justify our "crappy" posts..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 01:51

£10 GBP?



the basis: ECJ rules UK Court must enforce RoC judgement.. very simple..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 01:52

The "loser" pays to a charity of the "winners" choice - a registered UK charity - non -political ...

I choose NSPCC

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 02:05

Waz re 190



1/ Do you agree that the ECHR has ruled that much of the land in the "north" is still owned by the GC who had to flee ?



2/ Do you agree if someone attempts to sell / buy something that isn't theirs it is stolen ?



Now *even* I can see that displaced TCs had to live somewhere .. but pretending this could be solved by a military solution in the 20/21 Century ...



Law - that is internationally respected - will prevail..





Sure, some compromises will be made - especially for REAL Cypriots, but 2nd home "owners" should come WAY down the pile in the settlement we wish for...







Tell me , are you one of these guys who thinks Turkey has to retain a mmilitary presence to "protect its soft underbelly " ?!



Let's get TR in the EU and then Turks / Greeks and Cypriots can, ultimately choose to live where the hell they like ! ;)

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 02:10

Mark your £10 may well be safe. Congratulations if you win.



However,

The extraordinary Cyprus problem of which this case is part thereof, requires an extraordinary solution.

I have indicated before that the Law is an interperatable entity that in most cases serves its justifiable function.

In the extraordinary Orams case the Law, in my opinion, does not.

The Law throghout this case does not serve the justifiable function.

Mr Aposolides, in my view,is taking his given right, to inlflict suffering and provocation upon the TC people that are isolated from the same law in the TRNC.

Mr Apostolides has clear nationalistic aspirations linked to his litigation. Mr and Mrs Orams are only pawns in his game of restitution.



I would hope that the facts of the case are clear enough for you to see this.

The legal stance that you take is correct but the law does not provide for justice to the people. Justice for all and not only for Apostolides.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 02:12

Musin re 188





"everyone knew the uk judges ruling would end up before a european court"



ER no they didn't... you'd be surprised how many experts quoted previous UK Court decisions re "TRNC" t..



"after all we are talking about greeks here"...



No.. we are talking about Cypriots...





"finally read your own posts ,and see where you have lost your direction."



Kindly explain to me.... ;)





"long live the kktc"



Long live a Federal Rep of Cyprus made up of two distinct ethnic groups..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 02:28

re 197 Waz



re my bet.. pls don't put off those who wish to donate to the NSPCC ;)



You are STILL confusing a man's ethnicity with his right to use his property and he sees fit..



YES, Cyprus is "difficult".. "a Labyrinth without an exit" according to the guy who masterminded bringing "peace" to most of the new ex Yugoslav republics..



The LAW is a FAR better option that a military option - followed by ethnic cleansing.. let's not forget THAT is what happened in Cyprus.



Your "argument" that this action won't "help".. it's actually well overdue...it will focus minds.



For SURE.. this action will also be a major "red flag" to those considering buying on disputed land in "TRNC" ... So... let's remove the "festering issue"...



Isn't it better for all to know one can buy in confidence?

smurfit


Joined: 27/10/2008
Posts: 6

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:12

just a thought from a complete newcomer to all this ,have the orams got their title deeds ?i read somewhere actual cases quoted that they can take up to twenty years or more to obtain,if this is so, is anyone without deeds (and it seems to encompass most of us) legally yet accountable in this mess.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:26

re msg 200: Smurfit



The Cypriot, on whom's land an EU citizen may be "squatting," doesn't care about worthless pieces of paper from "TRNC"..



The real Deeds ( available for viewing at RoC land registry) show who owns what in Cyprus.



Most GCs know exactly who is living on their land.. Cyprus is a small island.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:53

Hi MM,



Whilst your point about the RoC land registry is taken, I think Smurfits point is that with the TRNC deeds being in a name other than that of the occupier, isn't that the person any action should be taken against? Whilst PTP and/or the issuing of the Kocan is pending, the occupier is just that and no more. The fact that he/she may have parted with money towards the purchase of the property is neither here nor there, surely?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 12:11

Mark,

Not sure what you mean. I am still confused.

Yes I am confused with the very structure of your posts as I think others are too.

I coment on my interpretation of your post.

Mr Appostolides, has littel prospect of "using" his propery.

Mr Appostolides is a Greek Nationalist of Cypriot origin, funded by the government to litigate on a mammoth scale for vey little self gain.

The average person, including myself pass judjment upon this action as having asspirations to inflict as much damage within TRNC as possible OR in your words to wave a red flag.



You are wrong to suggest that a military option is on the cards as an alternative to the legal option. It is negotiatin, concession, understanding and convergence that is by far the best option.

Come on...support the positivity of current talks...it won't hurt and you may still get your £10.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 12:19

Vaughan,



I think Marky was making the point that the only legal title deeds for all properties in Turkish-occupied north Cyprus are held by the legitimate government of the Republic of Cyprus.



Anything issued by the "TRNC" - which is unrecognised and deemed illegal by the UN Security Council - are worthless pieces of paper much the same as Andrex.



That's why "TRNC" titles suggesting some kind of "ownership" play no part in the Orams test case. There's no question Apostolides is the legal owner because the title is in his name and no-one else's. The ruling is the Orams were trespassing on his property and should get out, pay him compensation for being there and return his property to its original state.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 13:15

Seems to be a very difficult situation but my feeling is that Mr. Apostolides, who is a very wealthy, successful person will be so full of the Christmas spirit, and, mindful of Mr. Christofias' desire to smother the Turkish Cypriot side with love, that he will sign the title deeds over to the Orams in respect of all the money they've invested and the work carried out on the property. He will respect the fact that the Orams, like thousands of others have helped to keep the Turkish Cypriots going until a settlement could be found. Am I wrong?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 19:47

pp 201,

You are correct in your summarisation.

It may be that Orams will have to meet Mr Apostolides wish.

However, PP you are claer upon my thoughts that Mr Apostolides seeks only a Nationalistic victory over TC and TRNC.



There is a clear need for property settlement outside of mass litigation.

Justice Jack of the London High Court has indicated that the property issue is not suited to civil litigation. The current talks will address the issue once the more important items on agenda have been overcome.



My view is that the ECJ will indeed heed Justice Jacks recomendation and the Judgment that is forthcomming may reflect that. It is the case however that the Orams case is too far down the line to allow a back peddle in that particular case.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 19:54

PP

Anything issued by the "TRNC" - which is unrecognised and deemed illegal by the UN Security Council - are worthless pieces of paper much the same as Andrex.



That's why "TRNC" titles suggesting some kind of "ownership" play no part in the Orams test case. '



Err no. The Orams lost their case because they didn't or should I say their lawyer Mr Mentes, failed to enter a defence in time. The claimant won by default. The ECJ AG opinion is that civil court judgements in one EU state are enforceable in another EU state. Nothing earth shattering in that. The point over whether the claim re property was right or wrong politically was not the issue.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 20:05

Hector msg 204.

I am afraid that although the judgment was by default. It was Justice Jack in the Orams appeal to the High Court that confirmed that indeed Mr Aposolides held legal title to the Orams land.



However,

There are deeper implications to this case that make it extraordinary.

Justice Jack indicated this in his summary, in which the Orams appeals were granted

It is the case that property issues on Cyprus is an international one requiring an extraordinary solution.

Lets wait and see what the ECJ rule, what happens in current talks. I am hopefull, as ever, for a settlement.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 21:48

busted

i lot of info ,links please.



1, link too where it says turkey funded the orams



2, link too where it says mr apostolides is not a nationalist .



3, link too where it says mr apostolides has not been funded by the roc.



musin



long live the kktc

popeye


Joined: 19/08/2008
Posts: 35

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 21:55

Busted



To suggest Brit Buyers lack principles and morals is not only offensive, it is patently wrong. The reason for one's choice of purchasing is a matter for the individual. You may care to exercise more prudene in future before making banal statements.