Property prices may collapse overnight

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:39

Todays recomendation to the European Courts by senoir advisor Ms J Kokott could mean a general devalutation of property accross Cyprus but most particularly in TRNC.

Essentially the recomendation is to allow G/C to make claim on lands in TRNC from which they were displaced during the Turkish intevention in 1974.The Orams (a british couple may well have to demolish their villa and hand back the land to plaintiff Mr Apostolides). Final Court uling is due in about 3-6 months



A flood of litigations that may be a consequence to EU Courts ruling would lead to a general and catastrophic collapse of property prices in TRNC

This collapse will pay no heed to what type of title deed you have. The complete region would almost instantly become a NO GO area for prospective investors because of the total anarchical stream of property litigations, and claims, Nil demand, nil sales, decline and devaluation.



Action is required urgently. If you own property in TRNC you need to loby your Euro MP

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:44

We're all facing certain catastrophe and this is no laughing matter. The 6 months we have until this ruling comes out gives us time to lobby and if unsuccesful, I for 1 will need to sell ASAP.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:47

I fear it is too late. The recession and now this EU court decision will render non Turkish title land worthless.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:49

panic panic lol

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 22:50

It may also have a similar effect in the South. Who will be 'LOL' then?

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:04

im in the north im not worrying nothing has happened yet

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:08

35k for two bed apartment, not falling to what 25k, hardly a total collapse, thankfully prices in TRNC very cheap , not the same scarry scenario as UK, where a 30% fall has serious implications for many. NC Situation will stabilise time for the brave to hang on in there and reap the eventual rewards, whilst enjoying wonderful climate, beaches, and splendid holidays or better lifestyle.

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:10

excuse mistake 'not' included in error.

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:13

Nothing has changed materially.. stop getting the wobbles you lot!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:29

MSG 7 8, 9



Guys, I am one to remain positive. However the ruling, if it goes pro ROC could have devistating repercussions for the whole Island N and S.



Really hope, and still connot see, EU and UN allowing a return to anarchy and bedlum of the 60's which could arise from mass litigation,claim and ethnic cleansing.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
18/12/2008 23:53

I'm with Groucho, don't panic!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:03

Absolutely,

Don't panic but by same token don't bury your head in the sand.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:40

Anyone got a cunning plan the phrase "tits up" springs to mind.We all new the possible consequences when we bought in the north.I think it will hit the south as well after all it is a world recession,

Paul.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:40

My nipper summed it up!



"If you've got no money, it ain't going to affect you!"



Lem

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:49

I said it before...if they come for our land we'll destroy them. 1974 will look like a peace march compared to what we'll do to them now!



We should have finished all of them off then.

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:51

If theres no Cyprus solution, and the TRNC is constanly harrassed I would not be suprised if the Turkish Cypriot authorities close all crossings.

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:53

They SHOULD close them! Keep the money in the kktc! Why should people go to the south to do their shopping or travelling. I think these people should be treated as traitors if they live in the kktc and shop in the south!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:54

I would as they can only be closed by the UN... if they act unilaterally to obstruct the crossings they will ose a lot of cred..

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:57

WHat cred? The whole world is against us...we're being threatened with losing our property now...no one recognises our country...what cred are you worrying about?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:57

Zanny,

So are you advocating war then pretty strong views there,

Paul.

Navek



Joined: 01/06/2008
Posts: 2656

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 00:59

For Sale

Villa with pool

Price............



2 sheep and

1 stray dog





I'm getting out while the going's good

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:01

No judgement has yet been passed. But.

It is very clear already that feelings run high and a demise of the Island in general is on the cards.



Will the EU Courts, the EU and UN risk the potential return to the anarchy, violence and bloodshed of the 60's and 70's ?



The EU really cannot let this possibilty predominte.

Time is running out. We really are at a crossroads for settlement or return to pre 74 anarchy.



Mr Pottering (president of EU) Do your job and get this sorted!!

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:03

War? Fighting geeks has never been war. We've been kicking their ass over centuries. We did it in 1571, 1963 and 1974!

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:05

Waz,

Your recent posts on her have been the most optimistic that i have seen whats your gut feeling tonight,

Paul.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:08

Navek

Are you open to offers ?



Fag butt and a pair of cold french fries?

Oh is the villa in the North or south.

If in the South I can push to two fag butts.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:16

Zanny,

Your attitude is so yesterday.Time to move on.

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:18

It was the Turkish Cypriot authorities who originally opened the border crossing gates in 2003.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:24

L.C.

And do you think they will close them in 2008.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:27

Hi Paul,



Gut feeling at this moment is that the level of risk of loss has significantly increased. Prices as well as the market demand for property have just taken a further dive. Confidence is yet further erroded.



TRNC is very much a lottery with political statments, actions and predictions effecting prices and demand.



However, I remain Optimistic that the EU and UN will realise that to sanction litigation could and may well lead to property evictions, property demolisions, ethnic cleansing, anarchy and violence. Back to the 60's?



No judgment has been passed yet because todays release is only a recommendation. There is a distinct probability that the panel of Judges will go with the recomendation. I think that it is for the EU president to get involved because of the potential devastation to the whole island economy.



We can only sit tight and see how current settlement talks and forthcomming judgment pan out.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:36

Waz,

Property prices world wide have taken a dive.Time to take stock and not press the panic button (just yet) i have a lot riding on this so of course i am concerned nay cacking it.Hopefully lessons have been learned and we will not go back to the horrific scenes of years gone by, be it north or south that where carrying out the atrocities,

bed for me,

Paul.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:39

pilgrims message no7 makes the most sense sit tight long way to go yet they will need to take all of us to court 1 by 1 not gonna happen if we have to pay compensation it will be paltry to us but will bring our villas in line with prices in the south and hey we have no morgages relax

Linus


Joined: 04/05/2008
Posts: 281

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 01:40

Far to many doom and gloom merchants on this forum in my view . Peace talks are underway. Why not give them a chance instead of always taking the negative view. Most people that have bought property in the TRNC and bought exchange land did so at their own risk. If they thought they hadn't then they had not done their homework. The property is a fraction of the cost of other Europena countries. Life is not without risk?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 02:14

Hi guys.

No ..I am certainly not going to panic at least not for a while until judgment is announced and then experience tells me Appeal, Appeal and then Judicial review.



Hope that settlement talks can stay on track and get it sorted.

PhilKing


Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 1

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 08:47

My first post

Many people should be concerned about this subject, but panic is a bit premature, however in my own opinion the TC goverment are not doing themselves any favours, everyone and their brother knows they are just a corrupt bunch of playactors and until this mentality and the mentality of one rule for them and one rule for us is erased this will continue to be the case and the GC's case will grow stronger and stronger, they will point to the TRNC and say 'they are incapable of governing' a place the size of Norwich what chance anything succeeding.

There is every chance that the EU will vote in favour of GC's but in my opinion the Turks will then simply close the border, dig in, forget EU membership, keep NC as it is, the status quo will remain, 'oh yes please' but get rid of the corruption, toooo much to ask for, I know, but I can dream

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 09:25

I'm getting tired of Brits coming into my country and telling me what views of mine are yesturday and what are today.



CLose the border and stop the Brits from feeding the south economy!!!!!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 11:46

Phil msg 34.

I can and respect your sentiments.

However it is the EU and the EU Courts that have the onerriding power and influence in this.



Turkey and indeed TRNC cannot stand alone and remain prosperous. Isolation from the rest of Europe will lead to economic and political decline.



The EU must be lobied and convinced that a settlement via current talks is now imperative.

If they allow EU Court to sanction a probable flood of clAIMS FROM GC s then the likleyhood is a catastrophic backlash resulting in a return to conditions and events of the 1960's

Nobody on Cyprus, GC,TC ROC or TRNC , investors. will be unaffected. Economic decline will be a disaster for the Island Economy. The Strategic value of the Island to EU,UN, USA et al will pummet due to the insuing insatbility and possible anarchy.



Presidents of ROC,TRNC and EU.. GET IT SORTED!!

Kibris


Joined: 07/11/2007
Posts: 372

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:36

Message 35..... here here, I am a Brit and feel the same way!

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 12:41

mesage 37..... we're being exploited.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:34

rowlo: "hey we have no morgages relax"



The trouble is many expats are only now realising "their" properties have been mortgaged by dodgy builders. With yesterdays ECJ ruling, the banks are now more likely to call the mortages in and evict people from properties.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:44

PP. There was no ruling yesterday. One adviser has said is that he backs "the right of GC's". Nothing more. Thats not a ruling.

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:48

What was yesterday's ruling, Eric? Think you've jumped the gun a bit. Care to rephrase?

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:50

Sorry No. 1



You beat me to it.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 13:55

Frontal, surely PP was'nt trying to get us to believe there was a ruling! Nah, he would'nt do that........

Ossie


Joined: 19/01/2008
Posts: 311

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 14:21

Its always so one sided,Northern Cypriots to give up land to the south but what about land in the south being given up to the north? Why doesn't the EU look at the true reasons as to why Turkey came to the island? Have not the Americans/Brits done the same in Iraq/Afganistan/Falklands/Serbia etc.etc.?

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 14:36

Ossie,

The current recommendation to the EU Courts is purely on a point of law.



However,

I absloutely agree wth your sentiments. It must be down to the Presidents of EU, ROC and TRNC to get the problem sorted. What is certain. Time is running out. Once on the slippery slope the repercussions are likely to be deep and fast.



I see no winners at all if matters are allowed to deteriorate to pre 1974 levels.

mickey rourke


Joined: 27/08/2008
Posts: 157

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 14:41

Waz,

Your replies in particular the one in message 36 are very debatable, it is becoming more apparent that the balance of power is shifting from the EU and that the Eastern states are becoming more of a force, Turkey may well decide to go East and find its markets, then you would have the might of them, India, China Japan, Malasia Etc fighting against the EU, and look at the state of the EU at present

And oops Pikey has gone quiet again, !!!!! oh Dear

frontalman



Joined: 28/02/2008
Posts: 499

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 15:35

The reference in the recommendation to Protocol 10 may be viewed differently by the court and the UK court. The reasons why the Acquis did not extend to the North should be neither here nor there, the fact is it doesn't. I still can't see the UK appeal court enforcing a court order that can't be enforced in Cyprus.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 15:53

frontalman,

I hope that the court will decline the recommendation in the interest of the general elfare and prosperity of the Island.

The plaintiff houl be encouragedor indeed be ordered to accept some compensation,. The level of which should reflect his loss. He was a child when his family lied in TRN. The case is for land of little 1974 worth. Personal damage.. I cannot comment. Does he intend to moce back to the land? I doubt it.



Unfortunately, Mark ,if the EU Court makes a judgment. It can be enforced in any state of the EU. By the same token, an appeal should be possible in any EU state. However it is the EU ruling that will take precident.



I hope that some common sense will prevail before a catastrophic demise of the Island emerges

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 15:56

you don't know what you're talking about.

gates


Joined: 08/12/2008
Posts: 1096

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 15:59

as lanica airport is built on tukish owned land and every body takes back existing land we will be able to have direct flights to northern cyprus as it will fall under turkish direction no more stop overs with direct air frieght

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 16:58

Doyen,



You are quite correct. Because the ruling has already been made!



An adviser to the EU's top court says a RULING against the British owners of a holiday home in Turkish-controlled northern Cyprus should be recognised.



http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/europe/7789444.stm



How much would you like to bet on final ratification?

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:03

I'm not liking this pikey very much.

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:09

PP



I think you are being a little previous. It actually says the ruling should be made (future tense)

The final paragraph of the item

"The judges in Luxembourg have started considering the Orams' case and they may take three to six months to reach a verdict, a court spokesman told the BBC." distinctly shows that a verdict hasn't been reached, yet.

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:09

why the panic!!



The GC will never get anything back this is Turkish Land and thats the way it will always stay.



ALWAYS.......................

Zanny


Joined: 18/12/2008
Posts: 49

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:11

TURKISH!!!!!!!!

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:18

yes please get used to it, you will never have the NORTH

Becks


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 130

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:33

zanny, a website for you to look at







http://www.atcanews.org/index.php?option=com_bookjoomlas&Itemid=55&startpage=5

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:33

Vaughan,



The ruling referred to is the one made against the Oramses by the Nicosia District Court. The ECJ's top legal eagle has now announced it should be recognised and should be enforced (against foreigners in European countries).

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:36

Busted: "illegal and isolated and full of poor uneducated nomidic settlers..."



And mainland Turks as well.

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:41

i have your granmas rocking chair, pike!!

Groucho



Joined: 26/04/2008
Posts: 7993

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:44

So given the title of the thread.... did they?

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:44

Unless you are planning on selling your property it really doesn't matter, I will be just as happy living in mine however much it's worth.

When I am pushing up daisies it won't make any difference to me and if my kids get less for it than we paid then so be it, we've done enough for them while we're living and that should be enough.

Things in the UK are just as tough, I am not going to panic over what might happen, I'll just hang on in there, if we get sued then so be it, will cross that bridge when I come to it.

Becks


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 130

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:49

busted. you are living in a world of dreams. who has been telling you these lies ? you really think the gc's will come over and we'll all move out , hotels as well. Keep taking the medication my friend or you will end up in the white jacket again

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:55

Clearly the fothcomming judgment will be based upon a recommendation about a point of law.

The recommendation has no specific reference to the Orams case in particular, though there is clear relevance.



It is likely that the Orams will be granted leave to appeal against any judgment.



Having researched a litte about the sequence of events prior to the hearing before the Nicosia District Court. There is a case to appeal for a re-haring before a court that has no vested interest in the outcome.



It is ,without doubt , the case that any litigation against any defendant either living or with investments in TRNC will be subjected to prejudice from any ROC Court.



The EU Courts will acknowledge this and make necessary Order to prevent a complete fiasco of applications from GC.

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 17:56

if that is the case, why have the GC not already come over and taken what they claim to be there's?



GC live in dream land......bring it on..

reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 18:12

"Property prices may collapse overnight"

..is the title of this thread, and in my opinion....YES they will as they have already and will continue to do so.



BUT, not just in TRNC....the world over.





Repro

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 19:21

busted are you pikey in drag you scaremonger and talk the same shxt

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 22:50

Busted



The construction industry is relativly new the main boom 2001 onwards so for 20+ years the TRNC survived well enough without it....

you should really take a look at some of the rubbish you type before hitting the post reply button as it just makes you look rather stupid..

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 22:52

sparta: "i have your granmas rocking chair, pike!!"



I hope she took her falsers out. She usually does on a Friday. Are you a goody or baddy, BTW?

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 22:52

Prices worldwide are dropping, my uk house has lost more value in the last 12 months than my apartment cost me in the TRNC so yes prices are dropping but i think if you are happy with your purchase and don't need to sell then who cares what it's worth...

Harlequin


Joined: 02/10/2008
Posts: 346

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 22:55

The Advocates General is not a Judge and this was not a ruling.



The role of The Advocates General is to issue an opinion which the judges will take into account.



http://curia.europa.eu/en/instit/presentationfr/index_cje.htm

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 23:06

Are Zanny and Busted two sides of the same coin?



Or are they another incarnation of Pikey and Suzanne?



Just wondering.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 23:22

Surely someone with an editorial-style handle would have fact-checked and sourced a bit better than that.



ENDS

moomoo


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 23:44

Firstly Zanny is GREEK not Turkish.. He was exposed in another posting and thread.



Secondly I live in London and cant sell my house. Also it has dropped 30% beause of the recession. Please do not worry.



Just hang in there..



PS: I am loving britisth brother and sisters living in Northern Cyprus!



WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME!!! X

moomoo


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 23:46

Zanny is GREEK not Turksih NewLad.. He was exposed on the other threads.. his email was a greek name like StevenLanis@ something or another..



Just ignore him buddy!

moomoo


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 18

Message Posted:
19/12/2008 23:53

QUOTE: "Becks, you are not understanding what I am saying. It has nothing to do with the GCs coming over and rightly claiming whats theirs, it has to do with the shut down of the construction industry and then where will you all be???



Well hold on...the GCs claiming what is rightfully theirs?????? How about the 1000's of homes the Turks had to leave when they fled to the North for Safety??? No one ever mentions that!!



Big up the Big Flags on the mountain and remember.. All is fair in love and war. If you paid money for your house then it is yours!! SIMPLE! Just like some greek is now living in Turkish land in S.Cyprus...



PS: Welcome.. I am loving Brits in N.Cyrpus..



WELCOME WELCOME WELCOME!!!

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 00:10

busted tell us where are the illegal propertys and where are the stolen propertys it must have been stolen on both sides why are they still selling on both sides why do gc try to claim land back that they probably have never even seen is it because roc prices were over inflated to start with why didnt you greeks actually stay and fight when you started it now u joined eu thru the back door u want the eu to take over the fight u shit ure selfs from no brits carpetbagged we support trnc economy why because you my friend dont have the balls u were born with we do most of us probably dont care about prices we just want a nice retirement in the sun which weve paid for people like you are brain dead if u think turkey will let this go after so much time and money has been spent probably usa money wake up and smell the coffee

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 00:15

Well said Boyz...

saucyboy69


Joined: 09/02/2008
Posts: 111

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 00:17

Busted,



As i said you should read what you type before hitting the post reply button as you really do sound rather stupid..

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 00:54

A great deal of antagonistic banter between the nationalistic factions that have appeared from thin air in the last 48hrs.



For the avoidance of doubt... If a settlement is not forthcomming from current talks and an EU judgment goes against the Orams.

The ensuing flood of claims litigations will simply lead to a degeneration into turmoil, anarchy and violence as nationalistic right wing factions promote a return to the violence and obuse of the 1960,s. Both TC and GC will add fuel to the fire.

There will be no winners, there will be little chance of peace. Violence and xenophobia will prevail.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 01:25

Waz



In your scenario I agree there will be a lot of litigation antagonism and posturing but I don't believe in any actual return to the 1960's and 1970's intercommunal violence. Either the TRNC or similar state remains or a settlement is reached but I don't believe either side is silly enough to want to fight again.







Aussie

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 02:24

Aussie,

You will, I expect, have witnessed the influx of nationalistic fanatics upon the Forum over the past 48hrs. Nationalistic right wing fanatics will rise from the ashes as litigation over GC and TC land issues flood the Courts.



I really cannot imagine any smooth submissive handovers of property between the desparately Xenophobic factions.



Sure the TRNC and ROC Governments, EU and UN are not silly enough but I suspect that some of the fanatics that we have seen posting recently are.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 02:58

Interestingly,

The Judgment in the District Court of Nicosia made against the Orams was one of Default.

The Orams failed to appear, through no direct fault of their own, no appeal against the default judgment was entered and the result was that default judgment was made against Orams and in favour of the plaintiff.



It is clearly the case that the Ms Kokott examines this and her hands are somewhat tied as the default judgment is indeed legal and proper.



In hindsight, and very importantly, if the Orams had taken suitable council and had representation then an appeal would have had, in my view, a very good chance of sucess on the grounds of prudjudice towards the ROC applicant.



This judgment and the ensuing judgment by EU courts can be construed as non -typical and should not be taken as any sort of precident.

The whole judjment has been based upon the falings of the defendants to follow Court protocol.

Very unfortunate for the Orams indeed, but lessons have been learned.

Aussie


Joined: 17/06/2007
Posts: 657

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 10:48

Waz



The upshot of Orams and all these cases in the best case scenario for the GC prior owners is an award of damages and if they are really lucky they may able to actually receive payment in some cases after many years.



No court can actually enable them to physically take back the actual property in the North unless a settlement agreement is reached with the TRNC.



Therefore a physical separation will continue between the two sides apart from limited border crossings unless a comprehensive agreement is reached.



Hopefully if the final European judgement goes against them some form of appeal to the European courts may be possible on the original case or even the UK courts may find some other grounds not to enforce the judgement.



Practically its hard to see the ROC courts reaching any other decision in such cases where they have been able to serve court documents whether the case is defended or not (so the original ROC judgement was no real suprise).



Aussie

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 11:02

aussie

the ruling does say that any ruling in a member state can be upheld in another member state.

it also say that unless it would cause problems in the cyprus talks.

hence i don't think until the talks are over that the courts can uphold anything.

but if a solution is not found with the talks ,then it will open the flood gates for claims in other member states, which will have to be upheld.

so anyone who has exchange land here and property in another member state will be at risk.

tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 11:44

Zanny Msg 35 who said it was your country ? have a good look at it's history, you are only a new tenant, don't forget the Brits owned it before you and the Greeks, But Waz has a valid point and I made the same point a while ago, do you really think the EU will want to cause displacement of people and more bloodshed ? I think not, as I said before TRNC titles have been guaranteed by the TRNC government, which is really the Turkish government, and the law suits that would come their way would be astronomical, thats why the Turkish would not stand by and watch the Greeks take over again.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 14:42

I swore weeks ago ,I wasnt going to post anymore but just have to comment this once.



All this talk about the future is kind of irrelevant for most ,as they dont have deeds and therfore dont own anything to be taken off them,and many with deeds could gift the property or sell it for 1ytl to a tc friend and rent for 1ytl a month.

I find it strange that this has come out just when the two sides were about to meet about the property issue .

Was someone scared that an agreement might be reached.? After all the idea was that compensation or giving back property and renting were options . As the time taken for litigation and appeals etc to local and echr by thousands would mean for years and years ,the compensation would not be paid. After all you are not going to compensate somebody for something they might end up owning 5 years down the road.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 15:12

So a GC comes along and wants the land back that my house is built on, land that I paid my TC neighbour for. I have had a villa built on the land, paid all due taxes and been given my kocan, of course I am going to demolish the villa without a fight aren't I. Any properties in the UK are already in the names of my children so they cannot get that.

After many years of litigation the GC can have his land back, will he, or his descendants move back to the land and build a house on it, will they be happy to live on the North with the lack of infrastructure or will they try to sell the land, well that would be really easy under those circumstances wouldn't it, people will not be fighting to put an offer in.

Of course the GC can always farm the land, we need more lemons don,t we.

Common sense will prevail in all of this so do not panic, just enjoy your life in the sun.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 15:44

http://www.famagusta-gazette.com/link.asp?twindow=Default&smenu=69&sdetail=6982&mad=No&wpage=&skeyword=&sidate=



Is this another plus from Turkey.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 16:11

WAZ: "The whole judjment has been based upon the falings of the defendants to follow Court protocol. Very unfortunate for the Orams indeed, but lessons have been learned."



The blame for that must fall fair and square on the TRNC authorities who advised anyone receiving a summons to ignore it, contact the police and certainly don't go to court in the south. If I was in exchange property right now I would be very angry at the TRNC for scuppering any chances of a favourable court victory and precedent being set. That's the same TRNC that's poised to leave foreign property owners high and dry. And it's the same TRNC that memorably said: "Our sovereignty is your guarantee". To many now it's like a bad dream they will never awaken from.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 16:45

PP

To apportion blame on administration of the TRNC is not conjusive to sorting the matter out.

I respect your knowledge upon Cypriot history and some of your valid postings,

However,

A Default Judgment as we have here, clearly indicates the probability of an appeal to EU Court should court pass judgment in favour of the plaintiff.

The TRNC and Turkey will, without doubt, be assessing the situation with interest. It is not in their interest to see any claim from an ROC citizen that infringes upon any property that has been in their conrol and goverment for over 30 years.



They will react in the same way that ROC government would should claim be made by TC upon property in ROC. It goes both ways.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 18:29

The blame for the default judgement rests with the Orams lawyer Mr Mentes. He failed to go to court on the last day before judgement was issued. Had he done so the outcome may have been different.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2006/2226.html

Becks


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 130

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 18:33

He will never work as a lawyer again. Unless he was paid by someone not to appear

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 19:46

msge 94



keep posting girne. Your posts are some of the best

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 19:54

WAZ,



I think Turkey (and indeed the EU and UN) will wash its hands of expats like the Oramses. Here's why. Turkish settlers and Turkish Cypriot refugees are scattered all over the north of Cyprus, many of them in areas which would be handed back to the Greek Cypriots under a reunification settlement. This is where universal compensation or exchange will be negotiated, as you can't expect TCs or GCs to be uprooted yet again. They have rights as native citizens of Cyprus. Turkish settlers, as the responsibility of Turkey, will be offered cash incentives to return to Anatolia and smaller numbers of second generation cases will be allowed.



However, expats are a different kettle of fish. They live mainly in Kyrenia district, which will remain inside the Turkish Cypriot constituent state in a reunified Cyprus. So there is no urgency or need for Turkey, the EU or the UN to get involved or compensate in any way. They can simply leave it to the legal GC owners to take the expats to court.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 19:59

msg92 where will they live put tents up on larnaca airport??

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 20:00

girne msg 94,



You make valid points, but under most contract law if you pay money to purchase something you have certain rights and responsibilities. You are effectively the end user who the property is going to, regardless of whether you actually have the kocan in your hands. Do you really think the seller is suddenly going to refund all the money to you and face the music in court from the Greek Cypriot legal owner? I doubt it.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 20:01

Mr Justice Jack

Allowed the appeals of Mr and Mrs Orams.



In his summary Justice Jack is critical of Mr Mentes (Advocate for Orams)

He is alo very critical, based upon points of law, of the way that service was made by the plaintiff. Service of documents has clear and legal protocol. The plaintiff failed to give the defendant time or ability to prepare a defence within the legal time period.



The District Court of Nicosia were wrong to issue a default judgment.



Ms Kokott has certainly not sugested that Justice Jack was wrong to allow the appeals. She has however recommended that orders made in ROC can be enforced in any EU state. She includes the TRNC under the legal juristiction of the ROC.



It has been made clear by Justice Jack that property issues on Cyprus are an international problem ill-siuted to resolution by private litigation.



THe problem needs solving within the current talks and the EU and UN need to intervene and take a lead.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 20:07

Can the prices in the TRNC fall any lower? From what I understand there is nobody buying any properties in the TRNC anyway. Under normal economic conditions the latest development in the Orams case would have a big bearing on sales, but not at this moment in time.

No doubt that the TRNC is going to be eperiencing dire economic hardship, perhaps, it can turn to buyers from non EU states such as Russia.



I would expect Talat to be pretty pissed off with the EU court decision. Although it is a court decision, not a political one, he is likley to see this as EU meddling and bias and yet another GC initiated stranglehold.

It all depends, as ever, on how long the TC can survive financially and the national will of Turkey.

If Talat has to begrudgingly concede ground this won't bear well for the implementation of any solution. I can't see him doing so. I also think Turkeys disdain of the ROC is so great that it won't allow them to win even if itself suffers misery.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 20:12

msg104 will be interesting to see how many gc have kocans in theyre hands

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 20:40

hi mark ceasers resort is sold out i think people are still buying but the economic climate has slowed it down a bit interest rates for savers in the uk are not good so makes more sense to invest in property overseas one way or another things will sort themselves out if money is owed to gc so be it but it will only be on land prices based on pre 74 most villas are built on land that was probably worthless at that time does any one think gc will have a mass exodus to trnc and start a massive rebuilding project to resettle i for one dont think so

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:07

Rolo,

You make some valid points.

If compensation based upon pre 74 prices could be negotiated then that would great. Many GC may well accept that.

However there are many, Apostolides V Orams that clearly want to make a political point and make an example of the Orams.



The land that Orams villa has little pre-74 worth yet the Court Judgment ordred then to demolish the villa, pay rent and damages.

I am sure, that under the circumstances the Orams would welcome the opportunity to purchase the said land from Mr Apostolides at a Pre-74 valuation.

Mr apostolides, i do not think would consider this because he prob. has some poitical and example asspirations.



I wonder what Mr Apostolides plans to do with the resultant 300 sq metres of derelict land. I suspect that it would remain derelict and a blot on the Cyprus landscape. To some he will be a hero. To others a bitter old man. To anyone who knows the Orams Villa ,a blight upon the peaceful re-unification of his native Cyprus

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:08

Hi les



Isn't the Ceasers resort pre 74? Is that at Bogaz? Pre 74 will always sell, but it must be getting increasingly harder to find, certainly not in prime locations, still likely to be available inland.



The CEPS report surprised me. It revealed that a large proportion of GC's, do indeed want to move back to the North. A minority of TC's (still a large number) would welcome GC's back in to the North, but the overiding majority would not.

It might be that the GC mentality is different from English ways of thinking, plus humans value something much more highly if we are denied it, probably even more so, if we once possessed it.



I have never believed that compensation will be negotiated at 74 prices, GC's will only negotiate at current and potential rates, regardless of the fact that it might have been waste land.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:13

msge 109



Waz



Mr Apostolides will be a hero in the ROC. It may very well be that he has been financed and supported by some wealthy benefactors, perhaps even the ROC government itself.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:17

Mark,

Very good point.

I am inclined to agree.

Legal costs to date, in my view, are likely to be in excess of £200k



What does Mr Apostolides do?

Good money in lemons because I understand the said land was home to about 15 lemon trees pre 74.

Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:22

I'm sure that the Orams lawyer Mr Mentes has not suffered financially through his failure to serve a defence in time. I think he is still representing them. In the UK they could have sued him for negligence or have been compensated by the Law Society indemnity insurance scheme. Unfortunately TRNC 'lawyers' are not covered by indemnity insurance nor I doubt practically, would you be able to find another 'lawyer' willing to sue on your behalf, and that's if it was worth it under the shambolic civil law in NC. I have yet to find just what qualifies one to be a 'lawyer' (I should say advocate) in NC.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:25

Waz: "It has been made clear by Justice Jack that property issues on Cyprus are an international problem ill-siuted to resolution by private litigation."



Yes, but Justice Jack also asserted that the Greek Cypriots are still the legal owners of the "exchange" properties in the TRNC. Which is all a GC really needs to take a trespasser to court in the UK and seize their assets.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:26

msge 112



I am not sure what he does Warren. You can see him and where he currently lives on the first part of this video.



http://technorati.com/videos/youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DyIcATheov8U

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:30

ilc: "I have never believed that compensation will be negotiated at 74 prices, GC's will only negotiate at current and potential rates, regardless of the fact that it might have been waste land."



I agree. Pre-74 prices is very wishful thinking and was only mentioned five years ago in the now-dead Annan plan in a bid to get a settlement. But it didn't.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:31

ps I do like the colour scheme of his interior. Nice shade of blue

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:36

Waz: "Legal costs to date, in my view, are likely to be in excess of £200k. What does Mr Apostolides do?"



Does it really matter how the guy funded his action? He won the initial action after all. Unless peope are suggesting he wasn't entitled to get his property back, which he clearly is.



He's not an old guy BTW. I think he's an architect or something professional and was a young army reservist who was called up to fight the Turks in 1974.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:37

PP,



Beg to differ,

Yes Judge Jack aknowledges ROC citizen title. By the same token, if we are to accept this then anyone in TRNC can also apply to a court in ROC upon property issues . However chances of a fair hearing there are less than remote for obvious reasons.



Any application would, I believe, need to be made before a Court of the state in which the property of contention is placed. ROC in this case.

Only judgment may be enforced in another state.



Judge Jack allowed the Orams Appeal against that judgment.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:41

If a GC took me to court to sieze my assets he would get sod all, the banks have first claim to my house ?

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:49

msge 120



Hi Turtle



This was one of my first thoughts when I heard the recommendation.

Unless the individual owns their house outright, they are going to have a mortgage. The banks are not going to allow their property to be seized. I presume they will have a protective clause.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 21:57

120 and 121



Guys,

In majority of cases any claim will be for the land.

Property built on the land is certainly not the subject to any claim unless it was thre pre 1974.

Hence the Orams have been Ordered to demolish their villa.



If, and only if, things go out of favour.I would suggest a negotiation to settle directly with any claimant.

Land values pre 1974 average I guess in region £4-800 per acre

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:03

Waz: "...f we are to accept this then anyone in TRNC can also apply to a court in ROC upon property issues . However chances of a fair hearing there are less than remote for obvious reasons."



Any Turkish Cypriot who has legal claim to property abandoned in the south simply has to live there for six months, go through the formalities and the property will be returned to them or they will be compensated. This has already happened in several cases. Are you unaware of this?

Hatty


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 260

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:07

It occurs to me that there must be a large amount of title deeds for land in the south deposited (exchanged) somewhere within the TRNC gov.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:07

Turtle: "If a GC took me to court to sieze my assets he would get sod all, the banks have first claim to my house?"



That would be decided in court and you'd have to disclose all your assets moveable and immoveable. It's a similar procedure to the Proceeds of Crime Act, except civil action.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:13

Hatty msg 124,



That's irrelevant as the only legal and recognised holder of property records on the island is the Republic of Cyprus.



After Turkey invaded there was a corrupt free for all land grab of Greek Cypriot property in the north. Some people got approximately what they lost in the south based on a much-abused points system, but others were enriched beyond their wildest dreams due to knowing the right people.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:14

pp,

Thank you for that.

I am aware of this facility. However, as you can appreciate, the likelyhood of takers is very unlikely, given the reception that TC relocation to the ROC would get. How many cases are you aware of? and what level of success.



By similar token, I expect that you are aware of the Property Comission in TRNC for the benefit of GC claims upon property.



It appears to me that settlement could therefore be acheived if only fanatical nationalistic blights like, dare I say it, Mr Apostolides would take advantage.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:16

you bought in the north pike, did you get miffed because you didnt get the deal you wanted in 2004 lol

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:26

hey i got property in the north and it aint pre74, we all know the risks, if we lose it so be it, if we dont bonus, the north will prob end up a war zone again if gc's win anyway pre74 deeds or not, em great pre74 deed villa owner laying by the pool amongst a war zone great.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:31

pikey message 104.



In the UK,



"Title deeds are the{ legal documents} which show who {officially} owns a house, land or other type of building (known as 'heritable property'). Title deeds also show if there is a mortgage over the house and will give details of any access or other rights (sometimes known as 'burdens') that come with, or are excluded from, the house."



the { } are mine.



You cant have it both ways, either we are going by EU/british law which is what this is about,where the above would apply or trnc law where they overlook that fact in order to get kdv on completed properties.My building society have my deeds, when I have paid them, then I take over deeds and ownership ,until that time I cant even rent out without their permission.



As for registration, I believe the "contract" ,that useless bit of toilet paper, is what is registered.



When I sell you my car you and I can write as many contracts as we wish and you can use the car for years but until the log

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:46

Jay 74.



You make a valid point that could well become reality if things disintergrate.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:50

apostolides v orsms is he connected to some corruptness in roc to much money to spend on 300m2 which housed 15 lemon trees

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:56

msg112 lets all plant 30 lemon trees in our gardens and let him cultivate them for free if thats what its all about hes got a right result and we want be bitter

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 22:56

message 130 continued



book is in your name I am still the legal owner.



As for the timeing of the ruling, and the gloating that followed, I am surprised the ROC didnt wait to see if agreement thro the front door, which I think most people would have accepted,gave them what they wanted,before trying to get in the back door.

Just days maybe weeks before the subject is to be discussed,I smell a rat.

Where many people were accepting of the fact that an agreement might involve sacrificies.Now I suspect they will decide ,what the hell might as well try and hold things up for years ,after all if you are going to lose everything anyway---

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:08

msg118 hes won nothing yet he was a reservist who shxt himself when turkey went in to save its people from being murdered then he started selling toilet roll to the greek army and made a fortune lol now that markets gone he wants his lemon trees back no room to plant in roc they built on everything fxck him and all like him

Hatty


Joined: 13/07/2008
Posts: 260

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:10

Private Pike Re: Msg 126



Of course this would not have happened on the journey south, would it?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:20

msg122 we dont own acres or donums happy days lol we will owe them nought to much negativity 2 sides 2 every coin also 2 much at stake we all bought villas in good faith villas that were built on worthless land weve improved the north of the island they can freely come and see now and they dont like what they see so its only mans instinct to think its still his lemons and all

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:27

well said hatty pikey wont answer that in case he offends his gc mates

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:34

Waz msg 127,



I've travelled extensively through Cyprus and interviewed a TCs living as families in the south in the mixed villages of Pyla and Potamia and in Paphos and Larnaca. Suzanne could give you a better idea of how many there are in total but I would say hundreds if not more.



If you're suggesting TCs in the south are subject to racism or discrimination, none of the people I spoke to had any problems. The RoC police would crack down hard on anything like that, given their responsibilities to uphold the law and EU directives. Can you imagine the Turkish propaganda victory if they allowed it?



BTW, I also interviewed enclaved Greek Cypriots in the Karpass and almost all were too terrified to speak to me in public. Even sitting down for a beer in the GC coffee shop attracted TC police who sat at the next table to monitor conversations. GCs who stayed in the north have been subjected to racism and human rights abuses which are well documented. A bit better now, thankfully.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:47

pp

Your comments are noted.

However you intimate about problems as opposed to solutions.

We are looking for a solution..are we not?

As previous.

There are measure in Place both in the South as you indicate and in the North as I have indicated.

If due process is followed then property issues can clearly be resolved. Unless of course the nationalistic xenophobes find support.



Furthermore,

I side with Justice Jack in that property issues are indeed an international issue and private litigation ( like that of Apostolides) is ill-suited to the solution.



I believe that you, as a clearly well informed individual, can see the logic presented in my points and I hope that your posts could soon present some positive proposals for a solution.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
20/12/2008 23:52

Msg 125,

Pikey are you that naive ?

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 19:54

msg140 waz whats ure gut feeling my own is no matter what we personally never stole anything we bought and paid for villas in good faith therefore contributing to trnc economy the land was probably worthless now it has value because of people like us who some call thieves and carprtbaggers if thats the case why did they take our money in the first place if it was still scrubland do you think they would really care also do you think gc can come back north and live side by side with tc it is 2 totally different cultures or will they be allowed to march back in on the back of mr apostolides trojan horse and tc be exiled to the mainland

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 20:07

re128



NEWSFLASH for Dee.. the TCs ( and the thousands of TR "planted ones" who "miraculously" became TCs) .. they voted FOR Annan. ;)

shellc


Joined: 21/12/2008
Posts: 5

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 20:29

hi there i felt i had to reply to this, i am english and i have just bought a house in NC because i liked the country and thats it, we sought advice from our solicitor who informed us that any one who had any claims on any land in theTRNC could make a claim through the goverment, and that we would be legally purchasing a home that no one could take from us and yes i do have feelings for those that were made to flee their properties but as far as i am aware there is a compenation scheme available to them, this is something that we felt we needed to know before we go ahead in purchasing.

I am unhappy that you hope we get what we are entitled to and thats to loose our homes and have nothing for the monies that we paid for them, remember my freind we are english and we are not and never want to be caught up in any political buisness between the both sides we just wish it could be resolved where all are happy- so please think of us as innocent families and not theifs who you want punished!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 20:58

OK. msg 142,3,5

Some interesting and valid posts.

Without doubt ALL the foreigners that have bought exchange land did so in good faith and within the Law of the governing administration.



It is nevertheless as some are only too quick to point out there may be GC title holder based in ROC that just might choose to make a claim for that land.



It is more than unlikely that the same will move back North and build a home upon said land.



Litigation is a very expensive excercise. Orams case currently may well be upto £400K. That case is likely to be funded from a sinking government fund.

Mr Apostolides clearly has nationalistic asspirations and has little interest in the 300m2 of land that he claims his own.



It is not unthinkable that TRNC land owners settle directly with any possible GC that has discomfort because some ancestral land has been developed upon.



I am more than hopefull that the current talks will progress at speed and attain, amongst others, land settlement.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:07

cont from msg146.



There are measures in both TRNC and ROC to currently deal with persons with discomfort over beig displaced.

IN the North thre is the Property Commission. In the South TC may reclaim their property, although the conditions for re-claim are almost unworkable.

Furthermore,

No Judgment has yet been passed by ECJ. Orams won their appeal and that is a fact and cannot be disputed.



There is a great deal of pressure now for settlement. Never has the time been better or more probable for success.

Everyone should see the Apostolides claim for what it is.

A nationalistic attack and a blight upon the peace process.

Let him be judged accordingly. Mr Apostolides, for the sake of you ancestral Island home.....LIve and let Live.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:33

continued from msg 147..



As has more than once been pointed out.. this legal action precedes the ECHR decision to offer Turkey the chance to offer a local remedy.



It is not a "TRNC" measure.. stating it is, is precisely why so many GCs have stayed away...



Can anyone state how many cases where the GC's land is occupied where the GC has been told, "come back... you can move back in "...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 21:48

Mark,



I think that you refer to the Property Commission that has been set up in TRNC for the benefit of displaced GC.

I beleive that the commission has had limited success. It may be because most GC have moved on with their lives, many are now deceased and/ or what ancestral land they had in North is considred lost and as worthless as it was when they departed.



If your post concerns some other point I appologise for the misunderstanding.

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:34

msg148 once again what a post luv ya just waiting on pikey and busted to reply happy xmas and a good new year 2 one and all

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
21/12/2008 22:44

msg 70 never

rowlo



Joined: 12/10/2008
Posts: 4796

Message Posted:
22/12/2008 20:30

hi mark msg 106 its not really surprising people have stopped buying when you can access the forum and read some of the bullsxit from all the lawyers and judges that post on it they must be all connected to roc every time trnc try to advertise tourism roc shout penalty to eu birmingham for example and even a london cabbie the adverts had to be withdrawn now surely thats got to be a breach of human rights or dont they class tc as humans were all entitled to a decent living tourism is decent why stop them doing it is it the green grass gc dont want anyone to see

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
22/12/2008 21:05

Back to square 1, RoC has the power of Brussels and the Hague it can run to, there wasn`t all this turmoil and threat when the island stood on it`s own without big brother and all the pc people lurking in the shadows...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 01:40

Msg 152 redsnapper.



Your sentiments are absolutely correct.

I think it was a grave mistake to allow ROC to become an EU state whilst the TC and TRNC are excluded.

It is the case that ROC have blocked most of the EU aid destined for TRNC.

The ROC have capitalised upon their membership to isolate and hinder the TRNC as best that they are able.



I hope that current talks remain positive and both factions can move on.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:40

re msg 148 Waz



No, I'm referring to the Commission you allude to that TURKEY was ordered to setup... "no mention of "TRNC" from the ECHR....



It's precisely the attitude of folk, such as you, who repeatedly use this Commission as some sort of false endorsement of "TRNC" that has kept GCs away :(



The "rump" RoC has actually discouraged it's citizens from staying away- which is not the wisest move, either, as it can't pick and choose rulings..



It would have been wiser to swamp Turkey with claims, which would have been judged "unfair" by the ECHR, and the "power" would have been removed...



Can someone tell me of casse where an occupied piece of GC land has been returned... ?!



*IF* you think most GCs have "moved" on, you clearly know very little of the Cyprus problem.. This is the major problem.. they haven't... ;)

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:48

what was the outcome of property issues in Germany when east and west were united? This may have some bearing here

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:51

re 152 Redsnapper



Actually, square 1 would be all Cypriots ( irrespective of Creed ) back using their land free of harassment ..



Turkey would be better to stop "pussy footing around" and obey the rules of the club she is already in.. ECHR, and to obey the conventions she signed up to re the accession to the EU.



Within the EU Turkey can "enjoy" the same rights / protection and be on an equal footing with any CY Govt....



AHA... may be you mean you wanted military might to be the decider...?!



For sure the "rump" RoC thought joining the EU would allow it to punch above it's size..



So if you can't "beat" 'em...

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 10:59

sparta, there's a link here - http://www.jstor.org/pss/796809



but I am unable to open the full 26 page document.

RedSnapper


Joined: 12/08/2008
Posts: 540

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 11:11

Good post basically Mark and you`re right me thinks TRNC would be better placed to fully join the EU and complete the Island independent of it`s protector and guarantor. The TC population could then be protected by the integrity and laws and security enjoyed by the rest of the member states whilst at the same time enjoying new prosperity released from embargoes.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 11:44

Msg 154



Mark,

The property Commision set up within TRNC has have limited effect was ia a definite step forward and one of the concessions that I hav eeluded two.

You are wrong to shoot it down without acknowledging the positive jesture.



I find your posts somewhat disjointed but it is clear that you feel that property issues are the back bone of settlement. This is without doubt not the case.

The history of the conflict is very little to do with property.



Incidently Turkey are not a state of the European Union and are not governed by legislation or the justice system therein.

Turkey are aligned with the United Nations and consequently are supporting current talks for settlement.

I have no knowledge of any land being passed from TRNC to GC. It is unlikely at moment but settlement terms may incorporate some concessions from both sides.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 11:53

redsnapper,



I think Mark would be the first to tell you that something which is unrecognised cannot join any kind of club. I think he was referring to Turkey following its EU accession obligations and doing what needs to be done in the north of Cyprus. After all, Turkey is the in charge and the powerbroker held responsible for everything that goes on in the north.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 11:56

Waz,



Turkey has handed back at least three properties in the north of Cyprus to their GC legal owners, but that was about a year ago and may well have given more back since then.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 11:56

Redsnapper, Msg 158.



TRNC have wanted and needed to join the EU for many years. The ROC have and continue to veto any accension because of the clear advantages that would come with membership. Similarly Turkey,s application for membership also continues to be frustrated. Is this fair and just? Should ROC have so easily been given EU state status?



I fully support EU membership for TRNC with or without Turkey. At least the ostrasized TRNC populus would then get the liberty and rights that they have been due for the past 34 years.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 13:45

re 159 Waz



This "positive gesture" was an *order* from a club (ECHR) Turkey joined and agreed to partake of it's rules..



Turkey has yet to fulfil it's obligations re other ECHR rulings relating to properties usurped in Cyprus and has tried to offer compensation ( for the land property - which wasn't asked for) - when the owners sought compo for loss of use..



the ECHR WAY upped the values TR offered.



You really DO seem to miss the point "TRNC" ain't ever going to be recognised by the UN.. you can thank China and Russia for that . It is NEVER going to join the EU..



Now I know that the TCs can't be penalised - as they voted YES to Annan, but as long as they maintain "TRNC" is a state....



The only options are: FDR of Cyprus with automy for TC "region", annexation by Turkey, or a special EU status..



Whatever.. Property ownership .. land .. is VERY important to Cypriots ..

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 19:32

Mark,

I think that you are a little confused between:

European Court of Human Rights... Turkey sit on this panel of judges

European Court Of Justice...juristiction over member states of the EU

European Union... A political and economic community of 27 members bound by treaty.

I know of no ruling by ECHR pertaing to property issues on Cyprus.



I do not think I miss the point at all. The North of Cyprus currently known as TRNC will without doubt ascend to EU membership. This is without doubt the asspiration of EU except for ROC, and the United nations.



Furthermore, The TRNC as a Turkish Cypriot/ Turkish region offers no threat to the security of GC or the EU or UN. There is a diminishing case for their exclusion from international recognition.



Finally on your last point:

Property ownership is indeed important to Cypriots. No one has a patent upon property ownership. It is important to all.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/12/2008 19:37

pp msg 161.

Thank you for that information.

I can only say that that sounds another positive for the progress towards a settlement.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 16:45

Busted,



The North of Cyprus will join the EU. It needs to. I have no doubt whatsoever that it will in time possibly in line with Turkey. It is clear that ROC, since its own accension has workd to hinder this asspiration.



ROC may have monopoly on Cyprus but certainly not over the European Union.

ROC must toe the union line and it certainly is the wish of EU that the North become a member.

My understanding is that the GC have always thrown the spanner in he works over that past 40 years. Reference is made to Annan proposal of 2004.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 18:10

You really do believe that the RoC will decide whether the TRNC joins the EU...you live in cloud cuckoo land and like most GC you are legends in your own living rooms lol



Start of post removed as it really serves no purpose and is simply a personal attack.



Bradus

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 18:24

Busted, I have to agree with dee, you need some help mate and PDQ

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 18:34

Post deleted



Please try to put your point across without making personal attacks.



Bradus

daveb


Joined: 06/11/2008
Posts: 52

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 19:52

Post deleted.

By all means challenge the poster but please do this in an appropriate way rather than being abusive.



Bradus

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 20:38

deecyprus: "you clearly have psycological problems and if I may suggest, you should get medical help without delay.. "



A ludicrous thing to say to someone just because you disagree with what they say. Clearly all these new moderators aren't too busy at present.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 20:41

msg 172,



Another unjustified personal attack. I remember when north Cyprus attracted a certain type of person. Then the riff-raff got wind of the only thing that applied to them - cheap property "off the back of a lorry".

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 20:45

Pikey, I think this is your strap line from another BB is it not.



""If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear. ""



As I have said many times before "practice what you preach"

bachelibelly


Joined: 04/09/2008
Posts: 275

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 20:52

Can anyone tell me where the GC's parked their Trojan Horse in Brussels when they perpetrated the EU !!!!!!



On a slightly more serious note if the estimated cost of the "Apostleolicides case " approaches £400,000 or Euros(same thing now) is there a possibility that there could be an award of costs against the defendants (the Orams )as well as the return of land /loss of use compensation etc etc.



If so and it set a precedent blimey the GC's would be shi**in £10 notes......and they would probably set up their own form of EU probably rename FU an then they could Veto each other to death !!!!!!!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 20:55

turtle,



Freedom of speech does not include foul-mouthed and obscene personal attacks which is against our rules.



Perhaps it's okay in your world.

Ossie


Joined: 19/01/2008
Posts: 311

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 21:00

I'm all for totally ignoring the comments that the likes of PtePike make.

1.He talks a load of bull s--t. 2.He's only a baby in relation to the the Cypriot issues.3.He's a spokesperson for the GC and therefore only expresses their views.4.He makes me cringe everytime he posts a comment. I wonder if the GC would allow the Turkish views on any of there forums???

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 21:00

Foul mouthed...............................show me please ?

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 23:54

Msg 179,



As I was saying, north Cyprus isn't the same since the illiterates and criminal riff-raff descended like locusts on cheapo stolen property.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
24/12/2008 23:55

Turtle msg 180,



Msgs 172 and 173 deleted by mods for abuse and personal attack. Clear enough for you?

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
25/12/2008 01:46

Pikey msg 178, I must apologize I thought the comments where directed at me personally but to my knowledge I have not had a post either edited or deleted on this BB.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
25/12/2008 01:48

Unlike some ??

Ossie


Joined: 19/01/2008
Posts: 311

Message Posted:
25/12/2008 07:51

msg 181 It takes one to find one!

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
25/12/2008 08:16

Mods is calling posters lowlifes not regarded as an insult...this poster is rude, aggressive and arrogant. If he insults us we will insult back, I am not one to turn the other cheek...I am a brit, only shame the GC didnt pick on us a a whole nation after all Hitler tried it lol. The GC's are cowards!

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
25/12/2008 09:18

Little Boy in the Sailor Suit



I didn't realise you classed yourself as lowlife criminal riff raff. You are right though that your kind have infiltrated this Island since I came here 10 years ago



Busted msg176



Your comments rather show your own stupidity and immaturity and perhaps you should ckeck before posting for spelling mistakes

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
26/12/2008 16:49

you lot can talk about it until you are blue in the face - it ain't going to happen !





Nick

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
26/12/2008 17:27

negativenick



Too bloody true ,but will they accept it. Like hell they will!!!!!!!!!!!!

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
27/12/2008 14:48

deecyprus: "Mods is calling posters lowlifes not regarded as an insult..."



Of course it would be - if a poster was described that way, which they weren't.



This was the quote: "...north Cyprus isn't the same since the illiterates and criminal riff-raff descended like locusts on cheapo stolen property."



Strange only you and Gibson seem to recognise yourselves, though.

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
27/12/2008 17:52

Little Boy in the Sailor Suit



From msg181 it is obvious that you can't even read or understand plain English re your refernece to msg 178. I thought you liked to portray yourself as intelligent. You clearly have a long way to go.Perhaps there is something else we should add to illiterate and criminal for you to enable you to understand.

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
27/12/2008 21:12

Its good to see everyones been getting along fine during the festive period !!



Cooper

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
27/12/2008 21:23

The long winter nights just fly by..........



Lem

Blackpoolfan


Joined: 03/12/2008
Posts: 1568

Message Posted:
27/12/2008 22:54

Captain Pugwash is at it again, dont encourage him YAWN YAWN......

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 11:05

The Orams have lost a final appeal before the Supreme Court of Cyprus. Whatever the merits of their case, it is now beyond salvation except for two matters: (1) enforcement, which they may or may not lose at judgment before the ECJ although prospects are not good, and (2) a petition before the European Court of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which could conceivably find unfairness in the measure of damages (did the Apostolides get property or money from the ROC or any other relief over the years which should have been deducted), or is the judgment somehow inconsistent with prior rulings of the ECHR?



Future cases will be judged on their indeividual merits. It is likely that owners of property in the TRNC and also property in the EU/EEA/Switzerland will consider their options and distance themselves from property which could be attached by other GC claimants. Asset Protection is a fine art in the USA but not openly practised in the UK.

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 11:15

(cont'd) The main reason UK lawyers do not advertise asset protection is the fear of criminal liability under the Insolvency Act 1986 if the client should later be made bankrupt. The sophistication of US practice can be seen at http://assetprotectionbook.com -- as the author of the book has said in online posts I've seen, the best protection is done early and in layers: trusts, limited liability companies of a US state, and so on.



It's hard to know how owners of NC property will fare in a global settlement which would be paid for by Turkey, the EU and TRNC funds. Turkish-owned property in the South would have to be taken into consideration. Any solution however will be come from pragmatism and expedience and NOT out of fairness. It will happen because at a time of crisis there is money to be made not from you who own lots and homes but from the gap between land values in the two halves of the country by those who hold political, military and diplomatic power.

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 11:22

Finally: wealth has evaporated all over the world and North Cyprus is not likely to be an exception, except insofar as debt deflation is less of an issue because leverage through extreme and subprime mortgages did not exist. It is a pity that (for internal political reasons) so little data (and laws) are translated into English and the other Cypriot language, making analysis difficult. I am aware that the ROC Ministry of Justice has in fact translated many or most or perhaps all laws into English -- but getting a copy was not (at least not a decade ago when I tried) a simple task. Likewise for the North.



The longer the North is separate and the more democratic it is seen to be the closer it gets to effective sovereignty. Most of all, the more vested interests there will be that could only be destroyed or confiscated in the context of civil war. Transfers of title through inheritance and sale to powerful international interests are obstaces to confiscation. [END]

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 11:36

punktlich

Thanks for another interesting posting, one question I would like to ask you is why do you have an interest in the Cyprus problem? I can see nothing from your profile that indicates any close ties with Cyprus.

AJ

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 11:40

Punktlich: "The longer the North is separate and the more democratic it is seen to be the closer it gets to effective sovereignty..."



I've never known the UN Security Council to cancel resolutions banning recognition of a rogue state, have you? That's why to this day not one country apart from Turkey recognises the TRNC.



Talk of recognition, which has been going on since 1983 along with the folorn hope of direct flights - only gives false hope to the naive and gullible, of whom there are plenty.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 13:01

pp



"I've never known the UN Security Council to cancel resolutions banning recognition of a rogue state"



And what difference does that make on how the TRNC would be treated by other countries eventually.

Nobody pays a blind bit of difference to the UN. Nearly 200 UN resolutions on Israel and nearly all ,if not all ,ignored.

PtePike



Joined: 20/05/2008
Posts: 2334

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 13:06

girne29,



EVERYONE has paid attention to UN resolutions involving the TRNC - which is why the place is still isolated and unrecognised after decades of "sovereignty".



http://www.metrolyrics.com/over-the-rainbow-lyrics-judy-garland.html

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 14:29

PP

am talking about the future, you say nothing can move on because of UN resolutions.Am merely pointing out that the 190 resolutions on Israel does not seem to affect relationship with other countries a point other countries in the Islamic world might in the future use as an excuse to recognise trnc, and while accepting that trnc is unrecognised this can change regardless of UN resolutions.



Wasnt making a point about TRNC but more about how UN resolutions in general dont mean much in the the real world.



The EU's relationship with Turkey will have far more to do with an agreement in Cyprus ,and as Turkey sees her joining of EU being dependant on whats good for ROC as opposed to whats good in general then ,as one can see from the Turkish press ,a point will be reached where national pride will dictate that what they are being asked to put up with is no longer worth the potential entry as far away as 15 years from now.In that hope ,France and Holland just love the ROC vetos

gibson335


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 325

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 14:34

Little Boy in the Sailor Suit



As I pointed out to you before (but you obviously didn't understand).

If nobody recognises TRNC why are the other side having talks; impossible to talk to someone if you don't acknowledge they exist. Also the financial aid we have received from the EU shows that they wish to deal with the TRNC. Also discussions with a number of other countries re tourism, trade etc



You really must learn to read the news and keep up , and understand, what you see happening whether you like it or not. Then again you have ignored the truth for so long now I suppose we should make allowances for you

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 17:30

> I can see nothing from your profile that indicates any close ties with Cyprus.



I intentionally omitted any mention of personal involvement, but not to conceal any bias. My comments on asset protection are valid elements of risk reduction and, on occasion, pre-bankruptcy planning. I hope my comments on the quasi-State, its polity and property rights and vested interests are true irrespective of "ties".



I regret that ethnic Turks (and for that matter ethnic Albanians and other Muslims) have been shabbily treated in Europe. For that matter, the transfer of populations after WW I, and the various treaties and penalties imposed on the losers, coupled with the Great Depression, led to further tragedy.



On the other hand, if Turkey and its friends would admit the facts of the Armenian massacre the air might be cleared somewhat and they would be in a better position to allege racism and, in Cyprus, see blame fairly apportioned for the civil war and the division of the country.

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 17:40

(cont'd) How is it relevant to say that I have been to Girne, and it was specifically to visit the national archives? One of the sad facts of the modernisation of Turkey (and by extension the "Turkish" part of Cyprus) is that knowledge of old Turkish (written in Arabic script), of modern Greek, and of Aramaic, Armenian and other regional languages has been lost.



This thread is on the issue of property prices collapsing overnight. As others have said, that's already happened in the UK and many other countries. Property in N Cyprus had and has a risk discount; whether that discount is proportionate to the risk is hard to say. I stand by my appraisal that loss to individuals will be cavalierly ignored by governments, but the interests of institutions with political influence will be protected in many or most cases. Look at the aftershocks of the Lehman bankruptcy and the subsequent bailouts. I also held and hold that vested interests become stronger with time; (cont'd)

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 17:54

(cont'd) the Palestinian tragedy has been perpetuated by deliberate policy of States in the region. In other cases of evil or tragic displacement of peoples and genocide, reconciliation has been possible as generations die and are replaced -- although national myths can have an opposite result. (Benedict Anderson and Ernest Gellner are only two who have written on this.



The Orams case is a test case financed by the two interested governments. It's interesting that Britain abstained from submitting argument before the ECJ but Greece did not. Logically we (and the Court) ought to be seeking the legislative intent behind the provision for omitting the _acquis_ from NC. But I know that States and national assemblies often deliberately enact vague provisions to conceal inability to agree, and leave interpretation to the courts.



All that I've said is valid irrespective of any acquaintance or interest or visit of mine, all of which are minor and insubstantial.

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 18:01

> I've never known the UN Security Council to cancel resolutions banning recognition of

> a rogue state, have you? That's why to this day not one country apart from Turkey

> recognises the TRNC.



The UNSC does not determine recognition of States. Individual States do, when it is convenient and pragmatic to do so. Taiwan, Ossetia, Republika Srpska, Somaliland, Biafra, Transnistria, Eritrea, Montenegro, Kosovo all are recently "rogue" states. Northern Ireland is of particular interest as a model: see the Annex to the Belfast Agreement which says that [almost all] its inhabitants may present themselves as British, Irish or both.



As decades and centuries pass, status of peoples and territory can become less important or even irrelevant. Where would one send tens of thousands of offspring of "illegal" migrants from Turkey to NC? Somaliland has never issued passports because the Arab countries where its inhabitants want to go would not accept them. The TRNC issues (cont'd)

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 18:11

(cont'd) passports and in fact they are "accepted" as proof of identity by foreign consuls although not of the sovereignty of the issuing "state", so visas are put on a separate sheet of paper. The fact is that whether other countries "recognise" the TRNC or not touches its population very little, aside from the inconvenience of having to use Mersin as a mailing address (although how is that more of an inconvenience than the visiting forces using a BFPO or the American Embassy an APO/FPO?). I suspect being tied to the Turkish economy through Turkish currency is a more serious issue relating to monetary policy and inflation.



I don't mean to "encourage" or discourage anyone. Anyway, as Lord Keynes said, "In the long run we are all dead" (1923). It suits certain States, perhaps most of them, to have nasty UNGA resolutions and non-recognition, while profiting from status quo. I haven't had an occasion to look at NC foreign investment. If if it exists, that may be the key.

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 18:18

> Title deeds are the{ legal documents} which show who {officially} owns a house,

> land or other type of building (known as 'heritable property'). Title deeds also show

> if there is a mortgage over the house and will give details of any access or other

> rights (sometimes known as 'burdens') that come with, or are excluded from,

> the house."



A Google search shows you got that quotation here: http://tinyurl.com/8avs5e



And as that site says, it applies only to Scotland. In fact, title deeds mean very little in

England (and for all I know today in Scotland too) because the Land Registry is entirely computer-based. In recent years mortgagee banks have sent the original deeds to borrowers; many are lost or thrown away with little practical effect, although the possession of the documents may make the seller's conveyancing solicitor's work a bit easier.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 18:23

mess - 195 - phew !!



Like they say, put too much blurb down - most folk wont bother reading it !





Nick

punktlich


Joined: 25/12/2008
Posts: 50

Message Posted:
28/12/2008 18:32

> If nobody recognises TRNC why are the other side having talks; impossible to talk

> to someone if you don't acknowledge they exist.



"Recognition" is a red herring. The American Institute in Taiwan is staffed by Foreign Service Officers on "secondment". Embassies in Nicosia have (where budget and work justify) branches in the North.



In the end, economics may have more to do with the viability and international success of North Cyprus than anything else. The private interests of individual GCs, TCs and foreign buyers of land are unimportant to potentates who make policy. With the passage of generations one will have a situation where huge numbers of GC claimants to each plot of NC land make resolution impossible. Think of all the individual Palestinians who lay claim to every house in Israel...



One would like to see a solution perhaps like that in Northern Ireland as the hatreds of individual politicians die with them and national myths are outweighed by practicality.

girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
29/12/2008 12:51