The "talks"; End of Feb 2012; Will we remember it forever?

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 09:46

I am increasingly concious of ''holding my breath" this time around. By the end of this month we are supposed to know what "progress" has been made apparently - for the last time.



Is anyone else feeling the same?

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 17:12

I thought we said you could have breathed out any time since september 2008?

yrret


Joined: 17/08/2010
Posts: 761

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 18:22

I guess it depends on when the UN finally accept that they have been made fools of.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 18:40

Indeed, any hint of news is still showered by really "hopeful comments" as in:



short link: http://bit.ly/AFdZwy



long link: http://famagusta-gazette.com/failure-should-not-be-the-destiny-of-cyprus-talks-gc-and-tc-parties-stre-p14574-69.htm

mikelapta



Joined: 20/11/2008
Posts: 2186

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 18:50

Jaw,.jaw,jaw spring to mind



Mike

tarry67


Joined: 16/05/2008
Posts: 1053

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 18:51

Just have to except that there will never be a settlement as every time the talks come around the greeks bring up the issues of property again and will continue to do so.

I have been living here for 11 years and I have been hearing the same old rubbish about an agreement, that I just laugh now when they speak of it.

I for one hope that there is never any settlement as there will always be a problem with so much hatred toward the turkish cypriots and also towards ex pats. It was better in my opinion when the border was not open.

Lets hope it becomes an annex of turkey in the near future.

yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:03

"Lets hope it becomes an annex of turkey in the near future."





wishfull thinking by an ex-pat!

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:08

tarry,



many say the north is a colony of turkey right now



but whether that is a "good thing" or a "bad thing"

depends as always upon your viewpoint and not on

any purposefully selected bundle of facts



likewise,

one person's dashed hopes is another's good news



what is for sure is that since the outright rejection

of one attempt at *compromise in '04 by an over-

whelming majority of cypriots there is far too little

room for manoever by either side



hence the flannel about talks and the necessarily

vague references to a quite unspecified "solution"



but clearly things cannot go on as they are, all

actors must come to accept that no change is the

agenda of cyprus far into the forseeable future



... and then we can all breathe a lot easier

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:09

Does anyone actually know what the two leaders have agreed on since 2008,



Grey.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:09

* which did involve the turkish army vacating cyprus

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:14

greylag,



as I understand it and only unofficially,

rotating presidency, and federation not confederation



but I am not sure "agree" is really the right word,

especially since both sides have backpeddled since

and any offer of territory has been withdrawn by the

north ...and expanded by the south!



therefore from my point of view, I am quite pleased

with the way things are going

rolly


Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:23

we need to be part of turkey and let the greeks carrry on with their own mess. watch this space when they have the handout and that then is nearly gone they will then leave the union and revert back to their own currency and make the union try and get their money back. no chance.

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:31

So the so called "thorny issues" like property.Withdrawal of Turkish troops.The handing over of Guzelyurt (sorry about the spelling) and Varosha,are still to be discussed then,



Grey.

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:35

Rolly,



Elections are due in Greece.In April,i think.Could it be the drachma by the summer,



Grey.

rolly


Joined: 12/03/2009
Posts: 107

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:42

like i say grey just watch this space.they talk with false tongue mate.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:46

As i understand it Harvey Moon will make a statement at the end of Feb.The statement will say whether or not the talks will carry on.So what about the referendum,



Paul.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 21:48

What has the elections in Greece

got to do with Cyprus ?

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:00

"Cyprus is Greek" Phil.B.



Paul.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:06

I was understand Cyprus was indepedent

with a portion "technically" still occupied

There were 3 countries involved in 1960

so is the ROC British ?

Tango1


Joined: 19/02/2011
Posts: 1151

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:07

As long as we don't join the Eurozone, that would be a fate worse than death!!

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:15

"There were 3 countries involved in 1960"



Yes and only one country had a govenment lead coup and they are paying for it to this day.

newlad



Joined: 02/03/2008
Posts: 7819

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:23

Phil B,



mess 18 was a tongue in cheek remark,



Paul.

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:25

I thought Turkey's constitution forbade it from extending its frontiers. Just a thought.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:28

Msg 21, I am not sure they would agree

direct flights

free trade

a member of the EU

no relying on another country for funding

International recognition

a few UN resolutions on their side

and the IPC

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:31

no relying on another country for funding ) ) )

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:34

Newlad, I never doubt

your understanding of the problems

just others

do amaze me with their lack of knowledge

especially when they have bought property

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:38

The Cyprus Problem continues to prevail as one of the most complex in modern history.

The fact that there is peace, no terrorrism or indeed threat to life and that there are many who benefit from the situation; means that the problem is somewhat ingnored and neglected by the global powers that are very pre-occupied with fighting wars and terrorism as well as combating economic strife and securing their own position as global influencers.



My view is that the TRNC will noy become annexed to Turkey. How possibly could this ever be accepted whilst the ROC have such influence in Europe and have a clear agenda that is totally against any seperation.

Many of the endemic Turkish Cypriot populus are sitting rather well in the social structure within the TRNC. Turkish subsistence monies can afford a whole range of luxury goods and lifestyles to the fortunate few. Consequently there are many that a quite happy with the Status Quo.



I fear that it is the imported and immigrant populus..cont

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 22:40

The problem is some people simply do not understand the Cyprob.



Especially the ones with heavily bias views which just results in a 38year partition.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/02/2012 23:03

... that bear the misfortunate disadvantage of embargo and isolation. Lack of free enterprise combined with numerous governmental measures to hinder growth, development and success in general to aliens creates an area that is its own worst enemy.Certainly I have experienced a strong will by many ex-pats, turks, Pakistanis et al that would make a real sucess of enterprise. I feel sad for these people and their noble efforts. I feel anger against the powers that see fit to keep the region in a state of pseudo existance whilst their own political or military or personal gain remain priority asspirations.

A solution. Its been there for nearly 40 years. In 1974 Peace was the asspiration. Peace prevails, life goes on. The Staus Quo is the current solution that does not rock the boat.

rick1


Joined: 20/04/2010
Posts: 44

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 01:37

Just let the TRNC have freedom of trade, flights and movement. It does not need the ROC in its current form, perhaps it could join the EU but retain the TL. It can trade with Turkey 70,000,000+ people and other nearby countries.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 15:08

greylag message 13:



there isn't any intra-cyprus agreement "as yet" so questions like the handing over

of anything to anybody cannot be considered an established part of a real deal



correct me if I'm wrong but the UBP view on varosha/maras and guzelyurt region is

that territory is not on the table anymore...an official offer of these two areas was indeed

made within the framework of the 2004 annan plan yet this was voted down by the vast

majority of geek cypriots



bizarrely, the rumor mill suggests that while those two areas are no longer on offer

nicosia is asking for karpasia and part of the mesaorian plain to be given up as well!



so whatever the rights and wrongs of the cyprus question for you I think it would be

"jumping the gun" to assume anything has been agreed at all since 2008



the thorny question, as you call it, of a possible evacuation of the turkish army

may not be quite so thorny for many in the north, who would much prefer they stay

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 15:24

philbailey messages 24 and 26:



when you talk about relying on "other countries for funding"

could you by any chance be referring to that "emergency loan" of E2.5 billion

from russia to greek cyprus or the E200 billion to be doled out to the greeks?



as regards lack of knowledge when buying property, this sadly true for north

cyprus and many other similar markets around the med

but if this is instead an oblique reference to security of ownership may I refer

you to the last paragraph of my message 31, above

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 15:52

philbailey message 19,



north cypus is occupied by turkey as you seem scared to admit fully

although it also has an independent administration, albeit unrecognised



but if I was biased towards the mainly "greek cypriot" view of cyprus

I would be getting very concerned that with the relentless passage

of time, occupation becomes technical occupation becomes de facto

partition, becomes crying into the wind or some similar metaphor

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 17:04

yorg is out of order as usual

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 17:19

Msg 34, fancy a T/C having an opinion

that differs from the ex-pats

anyone would think it's their country

the bloody cheek

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 20:03

phil,



most ex-pats on here, favour a "solution" of reunification

...but without much attention to the small print as it were

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 20:05

and phil,



yes many tc's want reunification now but not enough to swing it I guess

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 20:16

msg36, most of the comments

I have seen from ex-pats want Turkey to annex it

I may be wrong but on here that's what I see

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 20:19

I still think that if there where a referendum tcs would vote in favour of re-unification.And Gcs would vote no.Based on the fact that the Gcs wouls deem that they would have more to lose.



Thanks for your reply Andre,



Grey.

andre514


Joined: 05/10/2010
Posts: 763

Message Posted:
24/02/2012 21:49

grey,



that is exactly what happened in 2004...



but again it depends what is on offer at the time,

up to the present there is no sign of agreement



I would have thought the gc's have lost it already,

north cyprus I mean

greylag


Joined: 08/04/2009
Posts: 1110

Message Posted:
26/02/2012 22:44

Andre,



Yes i know thats what happened in 2004,



Grey.

cyprusairsoft



Joined: 22/06/2009
Posts: 2066

Message Posted:
26/02/2012 23:02

message 35 he spent most of his life in uk and potatoe land

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
26/02/2012 23:18

Forgive me but I was assumimg that any ex pat would prefer annexation with TR to anything else as that would "delete" any rights to the land/property thay have bought by a GC that owned it prior to 74. Is that it?



I cannot see how any form of reunification as a sinle island state would be "good news" for anyone involved in any ex GC land/property. Unless that is, the GCs accept a financial settlement (by whom?) that removes their rights to such land/property. All the same, just how the extremist would be kept under control is another story...

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
26/02/2012 23:28

Brother what led to the boom in property in the North by non cypriots was the very prospect of reunification under the Annan Plan. Of course it is all down to the terms of any settlement deal, but there is potential for those who have property in the north, even exchange land, to benefit significantly from a settlement. Prices will undoubdetly increase dramaticaly post any settlement accross the board. There may also be liabilites associated with exchange land in the North post a settlement and even the possibility of loss of it entirely in some case but the chances of this happening without any reconpense for such 'loosers' is extermely minimal imo and based on all previous negotiations.

Even without a settlement, some people are 'gaining' from having bought exchange land at exchange land prices, every time the IPC settles a GC claim. This land is then essentialy free from claim, yet was bought at exchange land prices.

philbailey


Joined: 17/01/2011
Posts: 3534

Message Posted:
26/02/2012 23:46

Msg43, that is what Yorg has been saying

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 00:24

erolz;Msg44: reading your reply I'm left wondering why there isn't a vibrant property market (vis the ex pats).



If one stands to gain either way (as I interpret from your reply) then why all the worry before and agony after purchasing?



The way I see it, the "talks" have not produced anything meaningful so far and I would be shocked to see any practical settlement anytime soon.



If, as rumoured the UN is planning to walk away from trying to get the two sides to agree then I wonder whether annexation is "there for the taking" thus ending any further claims by the GCs to a title in NC.



If some prefer a form of "united Cyprus" then I fear they put in trust far far too much.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 00:29

Msg45; I'm sure that Yorg is more than capable of expanding on what he said but my interpretation is the same as yours and I agree with him in that it is to be expected that any ex pat owner of potentially challenged property title would feel "safer" within a TR state.

EamonnMc


Joined: 18/06/2010
Posts: 1019

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 03:08

Msg 44,



Erolz, I agree with you 100%, a very good summation of the realities,in my opinion.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 03:49

In my opinion the risks in buying property in the TRNC as a non citizen are high not because of disputed nature of title on some properties but because of systematic failures of the systems in place to protect buyers, failure of legal system to provide redress and failures of sucsessive governments to deal with these issues. That is why there is not a 'vibrant' market imo.

For those that have managed to avoid these pitfalls and now own property and have the deeds, nothing could potentialy increase the value of such properties more than an agreed settlement. This is true across the board for all types of property but potentialy mostly for disputed title property that post an agreed setlement would no longer be disputed. Neither annexation of the North by Turkey or continued status quo would provide the same potential increase in value of such property. Of course an agreed settlement does not guarantee gains but it is most likely outcome imo.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 03:55

I do not think 'annexation' would actualy end any futher claims by pre 74 GC owners of property in the North. It seems to me that 'settlement' is the only way that currently disputed title can become non disputed along with all the inevitable value increase that will accrue, be that settlement of indivdual cases via the IPC as is happening already or be it via a general settlement.

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 09:59

OK, so, with the news such as the one in the link below - also reported on BBC Radio 4 this morning, it is not going to be easy for the GCs if Cyprus does indeed take the EU presidency. I can't imaging how much "Turk bashing" they will be allowed to get away with (!) and be taken seriously in any "talks".



Yes, I know the news item concerned is all about Greece itself but I wonder what the term "Greek" means to the German authorities.





http://bit.ly/rOAyuJ

brother



Joined: 29/01/2010
Posts: 446

Message Posted:
27/02/2012 13:46

Well, it looks like my Msg.51 has been answered by: http://www.cyprus-mail.com/cyprus/eu-presidency-no-relation-cyprus-talks/20120221