A Cyprus Settlement

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 20:21

This question is mainly directed at ukturk's vast knowledge, but I would welcome input from anyone in the forum.

A colleague who knows I have bought a property in TRNC on exchange land (Turtle Bay Beach) asked what I would do if there were to be a settlement in Cyprus and some Greek Cypriot came along and demanded my property.

I started asking myself the question and don't really know the answer.

Suggestions?

JamesB


Joined: 07/02/2007
Posts: 450

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 20:41

Ask yourself another one Dunsterbruce,

What would you do if Lord Lucan rode upto your house on Shergar, with the world cup trophy that England had just won under his arm and told you Gordon Brown was a good guy and really did know what he was doing when it came down to Education, Healthcare, Law and Order and Immigration and that Invading Iraq was not just about oil.

Theres more chance of that happening than sorting out N Cyprus with the stubborn G.C's

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 21:07

James b, appreciated your responce!

regards

p

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 21:24

IF there is ever a settlement (it is highly unlikely that this will happen because the GC's do not want one) no GC will turn up on your doorstep because a compensation scheme will have been worked out and this is likely to be based on land prices in 1974 (not current values). This scheme would compensate GC's who lost their properties in the TRNC and TC's (yes contrary to what is peddled by the GC's there are many TC's who lost their properties) who lost their properties in the south.



Basically Dusterbruce I would say that you would have nothing to worry about.

lovelife


Joined: 07/07/2007
Posts: 231

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 21:42

Hi all



I know that a compensation scheme exists in the TRNC for the GC's land, any chance of one in the South to compenstae the TC's for their lost propery or is there a chance of seeing a flying pig? Am I being unfair and there is scheme for compensation to the TC's.



LL

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 22:13

I think that the real decider will be when the Oram's case hits the ECHR. This will set the precedent not just for GC and TC but displaced people throughout Europe. The Orams have been told that up to 39 European judges will decide the outcome and it could take another 7 years before a decision is made.Judging by some of the posts on other forums, I am not sure its the GC's that don't want a settlement its more the present government and the obstacles they throw in the way of their people going to the immovable property commission. I don't think that Turkey will pick up the bill for all the compensation so I feel some sort of "land swap" will be part of any deal.

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 22:15

enjoy your time at turtle bay duster and chill,but keep an eye out for lord lucan.

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 22:41

lovelife



You are being unfair, under the Annan Plan there would have been an island wide compensation scheme

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
26/11/2007 23:50

Thanks guys!!

More or less what I was thinking.

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 00:27

hi there dusterbruce

most of my fellow posters have taken the words right out of my mouth, i will explain why

firstly when the turkish government gave out exchange deeds that many years ago had the details of the previous owners if there were any in case a settlement did ever come about, and then they set up a compensation package for any person who had land lost in the north and they could prove it even thou they are offererd a healthy package considering they lost land in the 70s where land was not that expensive the greek cypriot government are advising (dictating) to their people not to take the package filling them with ideas one day they will just take it back by the way of the e.u

but this is not the case because the e.u have already said this cant happen because the greeks are not the only ones to have lost land the turks have lost a lot too and if that the case the turks should be better off because their land lost is worth much more money because south cyprus is more developed

so even if cyprus is resolved this way your property is safe mate and you wont have a greek bloke knocking on your door of your modern house/apartment asking for his property back which he lost in the 70s lol

if north cyprus does not merge with the south and the north is reconized or not, the greeks cant take the land back because the turkish cypriot government has said they dont reconize any laws or writs issued by south cyprus and in therory the e.u are powerless over a country they dont reconize



your friend might say so what about the orams well this case is a farce built up by greek cypriot and media propaganda the orams have had good decisions go there way by the means of jack straw publically saying that the orams can not have their houses in cyprus and in the u.k taken away from them and the echr have also stated that this would be a human rights violation to just chuck the orams out, but the previous owner backed by the gc governmet still want to back a dead horse but like all court procedures this takes time

hope this helps and you can sleep at night not having nightmares of stavros throwing you out of your house by your scruff of your neck and your friend laughing at you saying i told you so!!! L.O.L

regards

ukturk

ukturk



Joined: 01/09/2007
Posts: 1974

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 00:58

just to add to what bradus said when the echr judges decide on the orams case i personally cant see the judges going in favour for the prvious owner because this will open a unwanted flood gate

and if like what bradus is saying about land swap im sure even if turkey wont foot all the bill on the compensation the turk cypriot government will offer land back which is not owned by no one in the same village remember there is also loads of land in the north which is not belonged to anyone or belonged to the government

so thats why you never buy land or a property with no deeds because there is a big risk that you will lose it

and i agree with bradus on the current greek cypriot government are the ones pushing for the take back of land, very millatant most of the party in power at the moment becasue most of them were part of the witch hunt towards the turkish cypriot people in the 50s,60s,70s but these people were also saved by the turkish army from being killed by the mainland greek terrorists in their civil war in the south when markarios whas overthrown lets just pray when the elections in the south start in the new year the opposition party get in to power because they have stated they are after a fair and peacefull results either by unification (hope not) or northern cyprus as a independent state (what i pray for)

lets hope its good news for the orams and lets hope north cyprus is reconized as a self governing independent state connected with turkey

regards bradus and all of you

ukturk

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 01:23

I often wonder what will happen to Varosha? I was reading that it was Evkav (?spelt wrong sorry) land but most of the residents/buisnesses were GC. I believe in the past the TC have attempted to make this area part of the settlement plans but this has always been rejected by the TC's. This is more than likely because the TC's could charge leasehold rent to the GC's. This would be worth a substantial amount of money especially the area that had most of the best hotels in Cyprus and where the best beaches are. Of course the GC rejection would be based on not wanting to give the TC's any sort of income.

Bradus


Joined: 25/02/2007
Posts: 2641

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 01:30

sorry meant to say rejected by the GC's.

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 16:02

There is no such thing as returning to pre-1963 cyprus. I do not say pre 1974 because the Cyprus problem started long before in 1963 with the forceful removal of the TCs from the Republic of Cyprus in which they had political equality.



Some can say the problem started in 1955 with the foundation of EOKA to unite with greece, others can say it started in 1958 with the start of GC/TC fightings. Once you start going back actually there is no stop. One can even go as back as the trojan war where Anatolians were figting against the Greek invaders.



As the TC and Turkish side we have this huge problem of not getting our views known enough by the world. But we should at least be able to inform our fellow residents about our views of the cyprus problem.



According to official UN figures as many as 25 thousand TCs became refugees after 1963 when attacks started. This is 11 years before the Peace operation which the GCs deem as occupation and the start of the Cyprus problem.



25 thousand is nearly one fifth of our population back then, so one can realise the trauma that the TC nation went through. Many people needed to accept refugees into their houses and live with upto 10-15 unknown TCs in their house for as long as 11 years. TCs were forced to retreat to strong ghettos such as North Nicosia, Famagusta, Lefke and empty 103 villages.



The attacks against the TCs was not just by GC terrorists which had the support of GCs which four times outnumbered us, but also by Greeks who illegaly brought 15thousand professional soldiers equipped with artilleries,tanks and boats.



The first and last president of the Republic of Cyprus(1960-1963), the archbishop Makarios was at places personally leading the attacks against the TCs, so it is obvious that the Cyprus Republic collapsed at that point as at no real republic would the president lead attacks against his own citizens.



The Cyprus republic had 3 parliaments. The TC, GC and the common parliament. The GCs after 1963 unconstitutionally dissolved the GC parliament and prevented the TCs from attending the common parliament through the use of force.



It is well documented that the then speaker of the common parliament Glafkos Clerides has written to the parliament leader of TCs that no TC Member of the Parliament can come to the parliament safely unless the TCs give up their political equality in the Republic of Cyprus.



These are all examples of the facst related to the other side of the coin, that no nation in the world except the TCs and the Turks get to know.What has happened between 1963 and 1974 cannot be all explained in a forum message or even a single book. But i'd like to give you one last bit of information about why there will not be a return to pre-1963(not74) cyprus.



The village of Tochni is near Larnaca in southern cyprus. In 1974, the whole male population from 13 to 70 of this village was massacred by GC terrorists. Only one TC survived the mass murder to escape to free areas in TRNC. The TCs from this village are now living at Taskent village in TRNC, which is below the TRNC flag on the mountain.



So, as to conclude, do you think any Turkish Cypriot woman - as all males were killed - from that village will ever return to their original village in southern cyprus? Or the TC survivor that has lost many loved ones right next to him in the mass grave. I guess this is enough to explain as to why there is no return to pre-1963 Cyprus. The problem will be solved through compensation and some territorial arrangements.



One last note, this village of Tochni in Southern Cyprus is used by the GCs for Agro-Tourism where tourists stay at renovated village(TC?) houses. I was wondering if any of the tourists staying at that village got to know what happened to the TC villagers. Well, i have found one example on the internet where the tourist regrets having stayed at

Susie


Joined: 06/06/2007
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 16:43

i too am curious about Varosha - why has it not become part of TRNC like the rest of the north?

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 17:08

Bradus, you are right Varosha is mostly Evkaf land but had mostly GC residents and businesses.



I guess, Varosha was not opened initially because the fact that it was rightfully evkaf land was not the firm view of the leadership back then. This is because In 1950s, some areas of land from Varosha were sold by the TC leadership to the GCs and most people thought the evkaf lands in Varosha were legally lost.



But the previous head of the Evkaf researched Republic of Cyprus(1960-63) foundation agreements, laws to find out that legally Varosha was still TC land. This happened only in early 2000s, thus the long time lost keeping Varosha closed.



I think it was a mistake of Turkey and TC leadership to keep varosha closed with its fantastic sandy beach going for kilometers and the lovely sea. As far as i know, the proposal for GCs returning to Varosha under TRNC control leasing land from Evkaf were rejected by the GC side.



By the way Varos means suburb in Turkish, thus the name Varosha, suburb of the walled city of Famagusta.

Paulkay


Joined: 10/11/2007
Posts: 64

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 20:50

Hi Alasian

You seem to know a lot about the history of Cyprus

Im just about to order the Genocide files is it worth a read?

Also would there be any other books that you would recomend to read about the troubles,as there seems to be only one side of the story which more people need to know what the TC went through.

We only found out some of the story when we were on hoilday there in 2006.

Now we love the island and the people so much that we are going to buy a villa in N/C and live there in the next 6 to 7 years.

kind regards Paul

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 21:15

Paul,

michael stephen an ex tory m.p. wrote an un biased account of the troubles that you may find interesting,cant remember the title but if you type in his name in google i am sure you will come up wth it.



also there is a book called cyprus war and adaptation which is worth a read.



Regards

lovingcyprus


Joined: 02/03/2007
Posts: 1272

Message Posted:
27/11/2007 21:33

Paulkay



The Genocide Files is certainly worth a read.

Alasian


Joined: 11/08/2007
Posts: 70

Message Posted:
28/11/2007 15:55

Hello Paulkay,

I have read the genocide files and as far as i remember it was very much worth reading, and i remember being glad to have seen a book like that being written in english by some one who is not a TC.



Most of the english language books about the history of Cyprus that can be found internationally take the GC perspective and the english language books reflecting the TC view can rarely be found outside Cyprus.



------------

The book below, you can find at international level and I most certainly would recommend it. It definately is worth reading and i would recommend to anyone even not interested in history/politics.



"The Road To Bellapais" by Pierre Oberling.



http://www.amazon.com/Road-Bellapais-Pierre-Oberling/dp/0880330007

-----------



The North Cyprus government has made an effort to translate some books into english and to support some authors that were willing to write english language books about Cyprus history. There is a wide array of books avalaible in North Cyprus through the public information office in Lefkosa.



If you can reach such books, i would certainly recommend the Memoirs of Turkan Aziz who was the Chief Matron of Common Nicosia Hospital until 1963 attacks. This book helps to see the human effects of the attacks on TCs.

I would also recommend "Besieged" that is about the life of TCs of Paphos that were under siege by GC terrorists after 1963. This book also contains lots of newspaper excerpts from International newspapers of the era.



For a legal,political view of the events i would suggest this below book- although it is a bit old- it in detail explains the Cyprus problem till early 90s.



http://books.google.com/books?id=CBHZcVwXcUUC&pg=PP1&dq=The+Cyprus+Question+and+the+Turkish+Position+in+International+Law&sig=zis5GzXckNQa4KnveOAq_RnndDA



Later in the coming weeks, i will make a more comprehensive list of english language books avalaible on Cyprus,its history and the problem from either a TC or an objective perspective. I do not have my books with me now, so i will be recommending more books later.



By the way if any one is interested in Turkish Cypriot art, there is a definitive guide.

"The Heart of a Nation: A History of Turkish Cypriot Culture" by Pierre Oberling is a must have for ones willing to learn about the TC art. It is an invaluable book with regards to TC art, covering half a millenium of our art history.

Susie


Joined: 06/06/2007
Posts: 87

Message Posted:
28/11/2007 16:07

i found the 'Genocide files' compelling reading. Being written by an english journalist who was living in Cyprus it gives a first hand view from someone who is neither TC nor GC

Pebble


Joined: 07/09/2007
Posts: 8

Message Posted:
03/12/2007 17:06

Hi Dusterbruce



I have bought on the SeaTerra Bay location which is on 'exchange land' which explained to me means that the GC owner received land in the South (that was formerly owned by a TC) equal to that he previously owned in the North as an exchanged agreement. My contract states he cannot make a claim against me for his land as he has already settled. However, should a claim be persued and be successful then it would be the TRNC government who would settle not me and will be dealt with via the new Property Board that was established last year. My lawyer says this action is unlikely and I trust this to be the case, assuming my contract is worth the paper it is written on. I suggest you do as much research as possible, remember also Turkish Cypriots lost land in the South it's not only Greek Cypriots who have this concern its just that some shout louder than others. It's a sad situation and we just hope that one day there maybe a solution.

Dusterbruce


Joined: 03/08/2007
Posts: 1125

Message Posted:
03/12/2007 20:23

Hi Pebble

Thanks for that. I agree that action is unlikely and the Greeks cannot come over and turf out the hundreds of us that have bought on exchange land, but as you say they can shout louder as they have the international support, though heaven knows why after the unfair way they treated the Turkish Cypriots from the mid 1950's. As I often say to people, if the Greeks had behaved themselves they would not be in the position they are in now. They have only themselves to blame for the partitioning of the island.

meddmale


Joined: 19/11/2007
Posts: 43

Message Posted:
04/12/2007 17:38

Guys, does anyone think the Greeks are about to tear up their motorways or drain their reservoirs or even demolish Larnica airport to give back the Turkish land on which these are built?



Of course they won’t,



The most likely outcome even if (God forbid) we reach a settlement with them is one of compensation by way of cash exchange as under the Anan plan which suggested 1974 prices plus inflation although this may lead to some cash outlay the chances are that once this is pain your property now with a totally unencumbered title would be worth much more than the money paid in compensation

dodger



Joined: 29/07/2007
Posts: 1895

Message Posted:
06/12/2007 21:32

Fair point meddmale,obviously there is no quick fix and the greeks wont budge as they seem to have all the trump cards.the un and other countries need to be granted more power to sweep the changes through instead of just suggesting the way forward and then receiving a smacked bottom and thus retreating.

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 357

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 01:57

The GCs don't want to power share with the TCs and though they refer to the TCs as 'Cypriots' they nevertheless view them as the an ethnic minority (not an indigenous group) with no rights to participate and represent their people equally in government as established in the 1960 constitution. The GCs claim they have no desire for Enosis and that the TC isolation is self-imposed because the TCs approve of the Turkish military presence. The GCs conveniently forget their intended genocide of the TCs and how and why Turkey had to intervene (to save the TCs). The GCs trivialise the notion that should the Turkish military leave, the TCs would be perfectly safe but the GC track record contradicts this notion. In all, the GC stance is one of 'innocence' and 'victim' and that it is the TCs who are evil and troublesome. How can there be any kind of reconciliation or reunification or solution with this GC mindset?

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 357

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 01:59

Sorry I should have written: The GCs claim that should the Turkish military leave, the TCs would be perfectly safe but the GC track record contradicts this notion.

davidoff


Joined: 21/04/2007
Posts: 438

Message Posted:
07/12/2007 08:41

Hi all,



Would definately agree- the TCs would never be treated as equal by the GCs and the greeks tried to reduce the TCs to a m inority status and take away their human rights back in the 1950s and thats what stated this whole problem in cyprus in the first place!!!



GCs say they all the cypriots to live again in harmony and peace- But did they ever really in the first place???



The ROC will never shgare power and thats a fact and still remains the truth regardless of what they say- They still want the island as predominatly greek!!



THEY STILL WANT EVERYTHING FOR THEMSELVES!!



Take care-D

dy1259


Joined: 10/08/2007
Posts: 357

Message Posted:
09/12/2007 03:05

Bump it up.