Is it impossible to buy property in the TRNC ?

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 12:42

Please help. I want to buy a property in the TRNC, however I cannot see how it can be done.

If I purchase a TRNC freehold property and

a) The present unification talks are successful, I would have to pay compensation ( which could according to some posts on here could be more than the value of the property )

b) The present talks are unsuccessful, no compensation but the risk of being sued (as per Orans) for your UK assets remains

Either way seems pretty risky

If I buy pre 1974 property there is no risk of compensation or being sued but I will not be granted permission to purchase by the TRNC government.



I have learned a lot from this board thanks, so I may well be missing something simple .

However I cannot see any way of buying property without it being a massive risk. If you know of a way of buying reasonably (not looking for totally) safely please let me know

jay76


Joined: 17/07/2008
Posts: 532

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 12:57

Ian your risk assement is right, but what is not a risk now days, i have taken a risk also thousands of others including many members on this forum, the way i look at it is if compo had to be payed then i have still brought a villa well worth the money, but if i lose the villa then that was the risk i knowingly took, then again things could go swimmingly who knows,.

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 13:13

Ian

Hi, you are correct, but the sums you quote are not.

ie If you buy on exchanged land ( which I do )...this land was given to TCs who lost land in the south...you would be entitled to this if all land had to be given back ( currently worth 4 times as much, as in the north )

If compensation was the outcome, you would be compensated for the land in the south, and pay for the land in the north....if your developer built 50 apartments on land that was an olive grove....how much would a donum of olive grove be worth?....split between 50 owners, couple of k each?...if that?



If you buy now, there is a risk, greater the risk, greater the gains....do you really think everyone in the north will have to just upsticks and go?...



If you do have to pay compensation...you proberly will be given 20 years to pay it anyway.....if you are still concerned...wait for the outcome of the next round of talks ( you may have to pay a premium of an extra 50% if you do ).

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 13:18

Jay

thanks for the reply. You are right life is a risk, I suppose what I have to consider is could I afford to lose all my investment and weigh that up against living in a lovely sunny part of the world.

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 13:25

Thanks stewart very informative others posters on this forum seem to make out exchange land is a bit of a myth but from what you are saying if you stick to these type of deeds you should be pretty secure

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 13:34

Ian.....Solicitors in NC consider Exchanged land about 95%+ safe ( see Naomi Memhet website )



I would not buy on GC land unless it was "exchanged land" ( the Turkish goverment has details on the land lost in the south and the land given "in exchange" ( in the north )



I buy and sell for family and friends, I would not put any of them, or myself "at risk to lossing all" .....if you want any advice, now or in the future, contact me via stua@fsmail.net ( subject: North cyprus )

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 13:46

Stewart, Like your assessment of situation , if only it were all actual, I,d be buying more now.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 13:50

ian

someone probably an estate agent has been misleading you.

we purchased pre 74 turkish title, we have had our ptp and now have the kochan in our names.

when you purchase pre74 turkish title you have an internationally recognised title deed.

no claims later on.

you have no fear of being arrested in the south, and are free to check your title deed with the roc landregistry to make sure it is what it says it is.



there is no such thing as exchange land, nothing was ever exchange between the gc's and the tc's.!!

that is a myth the estate agents tell you.

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 14:04

Fire starter thanks for your reply I was told that TRNC had started delaying withholding PTP' s on pre 74 turkish title if this is not the case it seems the obvious route. Its all very confusing will have to check further. Would hate to buy then be refused PTP

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 14:37

Dear Pilgrim



If my assessment is wrong, then it would mean that Turkey would capitulate the Island....can you really foresee that happening?



EU Courts can make any decision they like, it will be superseeded by the current talks between the two leaders.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 14:37

ian

just stay well clear of anything close to the army bases.



don't listen to the trnc gossip , go to the relavant office and ask them any questions.

that way you will have up to date information.



before buying get a copy of the kochan and go over to the south to the district lands office. you can check to make sure that the kochan is a pre 74 turkish title.

the title references are the same in the north and south. (it is the ordinance survey ref.)



my other advice would be trust nobody, other than your own judgment.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 14:46

Dear Stewart



"Solicitors in NC consider Exchanged land about 95%+ safe ( see Naomi Memhet website ) " .. well they WOULD wouldn't they..?



If you asked a legal expert in the "rump" RoC you would, naturally hear the opposite viewpoint.. and they would quote you 3 ECHR judgements concerning WHO was still the owner.





You assume a lot .. if their is a settlement - how it will relate to property.. and if there is not, how will Turkey avoid the existing ECHR judgements and their precedents?



THAT's why there is advice for folk thinking of buying in Cyprus on the UK's Foreign and Commonwealth Office web site.



It is a gamble, and sometimes you win and sometimes you lose..I'd always advised buying on pre74 Foreign / Turkish owned deeds - but now I see there may be "games" re obtaining "PTP" or "deeds" .:(

pilgrim



Joined: 11/05/2007
Posts: 1404

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 14:58

Hi Stewart, exchange land was based on a points system and as others have mentioned an exchanged piece of land in north has no corresponding piece in the South. However regarding buying exchange land,I think all these current worries and threats of seizing Uk assets etc whist potentially feasible are exaggerated beyond what could practically happen bearing in mind the litigation neccessary, which dependant on outcome of talks could scupper current legal argument.

Way up the risks , make your choice. good luck.

p

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 15:04

m&ms



Surely if there is no settlement, Turkey and the TRNC will remain outside the jurisdiction or recommendations of the ECHR.



As far as I'm aware, the ECHR are not currently able to apply any 'judgements' relating to NC, they are purely suggestions.



If the EU and UN still wanted to promote Turkeys EU admission, I could see a lot of previous files being 'shredded' to smooth the way.





As an aside, it would be interesting to know what 'Governmental' advice non EU purchasers are being given.



Any Russian, South African, Asian etc. purchasers around?



What are you being told?





Rob

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 15:44

Dear RobnJo re msg 14



You aren't "aware" at all Rob ! .. but if you don't ask ... !





Turkey is a member of the ECHR - so it has to respect judgements and/or pay the fines.



The ECHR has applied judgements re Turkey's involvement in Cyprus ..I wish I could find a more independent source - but they are a start..



http://www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/mfa2006.nsf/All/90ADC505C94B392BC22571EA00271CC6?OpenDocument



Sure the EU / UN want a settlement, but the "fly in the ointment" is the continued "claim" to be "independent" by the Turkish supported "TRNC".. there is a UN security council resolution LEGALLY blocking the way for the EU, etc the help TCs .. even though they voted YES to Annan :(



As my wife is Russian, I can tell you this is a "lousy" example to ask about !!.. The Russian Govt support their "Orthodox friends"... Now lots of Israelis bought up pre 74 Foreign/TR land.. but hey, they don't listen to UN resolutions, either !

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 15:48

Just to try and kep things in balance the "rump" RoC sometimes gets in 2hot water", too !



http://www.echr.coe.int/eng/Press/2004/June/ChamberJudgmentAzizvCyprus220604.htm

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 15:54

m&ms



You sound quite bitter.



Where do you live, ROC or NC? Does that have any bearing on your views?



What do you really want to see happen?



What do you want to happen to all the non-nationals who have bought 'exchange' title in NC?



I see you describe yorself as being in IT, do you have any other Legal or professional qualifications or even experience to discuss International disputes?



Or are you just another self interested 'armchair' critic?



In the words of the Spice Girls: " Just Tell Me What You Want,.. What You Really Really Want"!





Nothing personal,... just interested.





ROB

james1234


Joined: 19/01/2009
Posts: 3

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 15:54

Stewart,

I note you buy and sell

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 16:10

Dear Rob re msg 17



"You sound quite bitter."



Nope..;) You like to jump in with your eyes closed, don't you !



I'm just slightly surprised at your naivety re the role of the ECHR and Turkey's membership and it's being held responsible for things "TRNC"ish !



"Where do you live, ROC or NC? Does that have any bearing on your views? "



Lived in Cyprus for 7 years and was born in bred in N.Ireland.. learnt from Ireland.. and being married to a Roman Catholic to ignore bigotry and try to see both sides of the coin..



"What do you really want to see happen? " .. TR in EU, Cyprus settlement along Annan Plan lines, but with more "fairness" re dispossessed owners and looking back to the sixties re restitution / compo.



"What do you want to happen to all the non-nationals who have bought 'exchange' title in NC? "



A la Annan, but dispossessed leasing land property with the option for the dispossessed owner and those currently occupying to come to a permanent arrangement.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 16:21

cont re msg 17



"I see you describe yorself as being in IT, do you have any other Legal or professional qualifications or even experience to discuss International disputes? "



Not a few members of my family are / were legal professionals - and I have acted for myself in Court in Civil and criminal cases - some involving property across international boundaries..



"Or are you just another self interested 'armchair' critic? " ..



Heh Heh, that's not for me to decide.. ;)... But I'll give you a clue... The last Barrister that thought that is explaining to his client why he lost his "open and shut case" ;)

ROBnJO


Joined: 30/06/2008
Posts: 1289

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 16:37

m&ms



Thank you.



I think I now totally understand your presence here.



Just a pity you fail to state whether you have been in ROC or NC.





Never mind!



You just keep pontificating son! Have a good day!





ROB

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 16:46

Dear RobnJo



re msg 21



I'm very sorry.. I lived in Limas(s)ol and would happily have lived in the scenically superb north if I could live there and earn a crust where the "action" is... I dreamt of and actively campaigned for a GC yes.. to Annan



We took our hols in TR( I do biz there, too) and we are well used to dealing with folk who THINK we shouldn't go there, shop there, fly from there, visit there, talk to THEM....



Are you one of those people ;) ?

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 17:16

Dear James1234



Yes, mainly to friends and family and those who want a hassel free purchase.

( including ensuring electric & water is supplied )



I have good TC & GC contacts / friends.



If you want advice, now or in the future, you can contact me quicker through:

stua@fsmail.net ( subject; NC or North Cyprus )...else your email may be auto deleted

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 19:35

you can buy my house if you like...no problem! lol

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 19:50

Send me the details...what deeds do you have?

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
19/01/2009 23:22

the deeds are TMD. and it's 58,000stg. if you send me an email address i'l send you some pictures.



Sam

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 14:06

stewart

do you have any family or friends who still speak to you?

are you a licenced estate agent ? lol.

Teamcharms



Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 126

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 15:47

Hi



Going back to original topic, we have purchased an apartment in Palm Bay View, Bahceli - aparantly this land is neither exchange nor pre-1974 Turkish Title. It is TRNC Title (TMD).



I assume that is not good????



Chris

poochops


Joined: 09/03/2008
Posts: 64

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 16:13

Ian, re the Orams, our assets in the UK are in my name, the cyprus property is in my wifes name. In the event she is sued, she has no assets to realise to settle compensation, mind you I suppose then she could be locked up for 20 years....

hey -ho!

Stewart


Joined: 19/07/2008
Posts: 1107

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 18:06

dear sam



my email address is available if you want to send me the details

rsalih


Joined: 01/11/2008
Posts: 306

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 18:42

dear stewart, we have a villa that is for sale . it is almost complete. lovely views of mountain and sea. 1 minute by car to beach. This villa is being built to a very high standard. İn the event that it does not sell we will keep it and use it that is why everything is very well built , damp course etc. İt is in Çicek Mahallesi, which is a very nice area. You can e mail me if you are interested.

ian444


Joined: 14/01/2009
Posts: 71

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 22:12

thanks poochops thats the answer wife in the clink, dig out the white bellbottoms and party like its 1979



just sign this contract darling

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 23:08

re 28



The pertinent Q is that is the ownership of the land in "dispute" ? It had to be owned by SOMEONE.. ;)

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 23:25

"All property is theft"

Lemtich



Joined: 15/02/2007
Posts: 1487

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 23:39

Everyone keeps banging on about the Brits who have purchased properties on exchanged land and what affect a settlement may bring. Okay, what about all the dispossessed Turkish Cypriots who fled north after 1974 and were the original recipricants of exchanged land? They can't have all sold to the developers, so forget the Brits for a moment, what about the TC's and their families, are they going to be penalised? They hold the same Kocans the Brits do. Are EU judgements going to be enforced against them? If they get special dispensation, is there not a judicial case of discrimination against fellow EU citizens? I'm afraid this can of worms will take more than a blanket EU court judgement to solve.



Happy Days



Lem

karakum5c



Joined: 18/03/2008
Posts: 1021

Message Posted:
20/01/2009 23:46

Well said Lem, its going to take a Bibilical effort to sort this one out, has anyone seen the Messiah! ( a well another 1000 years to wait so be it )

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/01/2009 09:13

Dear Lem, re msg 35



1/ I would use "exchange" in " "'s as I hardly think innocent GCs running away from the TR army thought they were agreeing to anything..any more than displaced TCs.



2/ the rump "RoC" set up a trusteeship of TC land / property and you CAN'T buy / sell on such land ( in the main) - I know personally of a guy ( a GC) in the TR quarter of Limassol who's "home" ( rented) and "metal bashing" workshop must move as the TC who owns it wants to come "home"... The GC can't move back to his home..:(



3/ You KNOW that that GCs have been waiting for years to get their homes back - and seen initiatives come and go.. hence the legal actions at the ECHR and now the IPC that Turkey was ordered to set up..



GCs should use this IPC, but their govt foolishly say NO., don't.. and points to folk calling it a "TRNC" institution...



Most GCs wouldn't want to go back, but they want the option.



TCs have that option..though it is not made easy..



No easy options.. but to do n

daisy dukes


Joined: 06/09/2008
Posts: 3815

Message Posted:
21/01/2009 18:09

hi Stewart



I don't seem to be able to find your Email address, apparently i haven't posted enough posts...could you maybe send it me via private message, and then i will be able to send you the pictures.

Thank you

Sam

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
21/01/2009 18:47

lem

i am i right in thinking you only have a holiday home here and don't live here full time?

if you did you would know how it works here, like an old boys school, it is never the tc's fault, thats just how it is.

maybe if we had the same priciples in the uk, it wouldn't be in such a mess.



why have the orams not counter claimed the person who sold them the land??

after all if he is tc he still may have assets in the uk,or the eu to claim against.



he was the one who sold them land which he didn't own and is now in dispute.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
21/01/2009 23:34

Msg 39,



I think you can only counter-claim against the person who's suing you and Apostolides is in the right. They would have to raise separate proceeedings against whoever sold them Apostolides' property and put up a pretty good case that they weren't in cahoots and knew perfectly well that if you buy property in the TRNC there's an 80% chance it will never belong to you (100% chance if it's esdeger or TMD).

Whistler


Joined: 28/07/2008
Posts: 1332

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 09:06

If you dont want to buy, and you really want to come here, why not rent? Many do.

cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
22/01/2009 09:20

Good advice whistler......if I knew then what I know now etc etc.



Rental properties are plentiful AND cheap.

There is a massive oversupply and you can live very comfortably without the inherent problems of purchasing in NC.