exchange title deed - exchange back again?

ajaney


Joined: 24/12/2008
Posts: 199

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 12:44

Given that exchange title deed given to TCs were awarded on the land and property they were dispossed of in the South and that the government has records of these lands and properties, why is in not possible to exchange back and return the GC property to the GCs in exchange for the land given up by the TCs in the South. Whilst some of the land might have been built on or developed in some other aspect, this could be elegible for compensation. TMD and to be dealt with based on the Annan plan. Is this too simplistic?

cooper


Joined: 23/10/2007
Posts: 3386

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 12:58

Latest news from last meeting between both leaders - http://www.e-kktc.com/index.php?tpl=news_trnc&id=448&lan=en





Cooper

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 13:05

ajaney,

I fear that your proposal is too simplistic.

It is more than 35 years ago that Cypriots were displaced from their property.

The clear defined regions are very well established and many original displaced citizens are now deceased. It is unlikely, given the passing of time and de-facto situation that a re-exchange would be viable.



The compensation route is indeed a likely solution to the vast majority of property isues. The Annan plan for TMD land is also somewhat outdated to the de-facto situation. A great deal of improvements to this property has taken place since 2004. I feel the compensation route will again be the most likely route to settlement.

sparta


Joined: 24/10/2008
Posts: 226

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 13:07

hope you are right waz still leaves a lot of people wondering thou

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 13:23

Msg 2 cooper,

Thank you for this informative link.



It would appear that the ROC seek restitution.

This is what is to be expected.

Essentially the ROC seek to claim the booty created from the betterment of property that was vacated in the 70,s. The TRNC wish to consider compensation linked to restitution and exchange.

This, I think is more likely to be entertained.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 14:07

msg 1,

I understand from my TC friends, that far from allocating land to displaced people on the basis of the amount of land that they had left behind, it was more like a rugby scrummage.

'Absolute chaos', one said.

Who you knew, who you were related to, and what political party you supported counted for a lot more than the facts.

They say they know people who left behind 2 lemon trees & a shed, that received vast tracts of land, and others who left behind extensive property but received nothing.

Yet others, who were allocated land, but had fled to London, returned to find their plots occupied by someone else, and were told 'you didn't take it over, and these people had nowhere, so now they've got it'.

And of course, a lot of those 'vast tracts' have now been sold, and built on...

Anyone whose job it is to sort that mess out has my heartfelt sympathy!

Keith.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 14:58

Dear Warren re msg 5



"Essentially the ROC seek to claim the booty created from the betterment of property that was vacated in the 70,s."



Er NO... and WELL you must surely know it... or you clearly haven't been paying attention when I respond to your ( mostly) subjective - re GC attitudes - posts



Cypriots want the RIGHT to return to *their* property ... they didn't want to leave, nor did they ask anyone to "better" their property or make an "exchange" .. be it farmland, lemon groves or what ever.....



I'm not saying that's realistic.. but ( sorry - it has to be said ) I am telling you that your above quote is NONSENSE and folk would be foolish, in the extreme, to listen to your opinion re GC attitudes.





" The TRNC wish to consider compensation linked to restitution and exchange."



You mean *TCs*and Turkey, of course ...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:08

mmmmmm,



Thank you for you view upon my post.

I do not believe that you are any better placed than myself to interpret the wish of Cypriots.

Furthermore, Mr Christofias has indicated a desire for restitution.

Apparently he has declined exchange and compensation possibilities.



If my interpretation is nonsense perhaps we could get your view on land that has been developed from low value grazing to multi million pound asset.



Finally, I mean what I say TRNC , if I meant TCs and Turkey, I would say that.

The TRNC that represents its citizens , investors, supporters and indeed visitors to the region.

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:29

i think in 50 years we'll look back on these political postings and chuckle our heads off....



One thing is for sure - you are all guessing !



Why waste your time ? - take yer misus out for somat to eat !





Nick

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:32

Cant an emergency meeting with the BRS and British Consulate be called for to represent the views and fears of the expats. They must speak to Mr T and perhaps he can outline his plans to them so we will all know and be represented.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:33

exchange title land has some valid basis within the trnc

but it's legal staus is not internationaly recognised, so it is cheaper



if someday there should ever be an agreed reunification,

property issues and security would feature large



but while egypt "got back" the sinai after the camp david accords,

any deal on cyprus would involve compensation for both communities,

and restitution (return if you would prefer to call it that) would be minor



one reason is that both parts of cyprus are evolving differently

also there is the problem that by 2085 there will be nobody alive

who actually moved from the south to the north or vice versa



I hope I'm mistaken but differences between the two sides are great

and have increased in the last five years so, despite the hype,

there's only a slim chance of any deal in the forseeable future



regarding right or wrong the underlying issues are very complex,

and most of us on the forum made up our own minds long ago anyway



andre

negativenick


Joined: 10/11/2008
Posts: 6023

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:36

well i ani't swapping !



Last month i went to a Wife swapping party and got a 3 speed drill for my misus....



Poor Gary Monger couldn't find anyone to take his misus off his hands....





Nick

DONTY


Joined: 07/06/2007
Posts: 534

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:51

Msg 9 makes the most sense so far. I'm off to to make a sarnie.

Chaz4566


Joined: 31/12/2008
Posts: 32

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 16:56

i think Nick has the right idea - Kebab darling? Chaz

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:00

WAZ:



"Essentially the ROC seek to claim the booty created from the betterment of property that was vacated in the 70,s."



So if a lowlife crook steals my car, resprays it and fits a new stereo before flogging cheap it to some opportunist scumbag, does that mean the scumbag gets to keep it? Cos that's what your saying, Warren.

MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:05

i was watching the news this morning on ada tv ,and talat had indicated that the gc,s want a complete withdrawal of the turkish army from the north.



the tv crew went out to the streets and asked people "turkish cypriots" how they felt and could they live without and feel safe without the army ,all stressed that this was not a condition they were willing to live with whatever the outcome would bring ,they still do not trust the gc,s to go it alone .



prehaps not a lot has really changed between gcs and tcs.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:12

Musim you are a wise owl with many pearls of wisdom...

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:16

Macha,

Sorry that you have misinterpreted my post.



The car scenario is inapropriate.



Land vacated by Cypriots in 1974 has evolved. Some land has been exchanged.

Some land was unregistered and without title or indeed owner. This land was simply occupied. This type of land may now well be occupied by another person.



If a person has purchased land that has been shown to have title issued by an administration that has control of a region such as TRNC, then it is the perogative of the buyer to proceed or not.

We are not talking of a pre meditated direct theft of property.

Theft of a motor vehicle in the TRNC will be dealt with in the same way as authorities in most countries. It is against the prevailing law.



It is claer that Mr Cristofias seeks retribution. Punishment for a deemed evil deed and ceasure of any gain as a result of the said deed. Any ROC citizen that legitimately left titled land has no claim on assets on the said land.

The same applies both sides of divide.

stevemac


Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 99

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:33

Lilli message 10 the BRS don't deal with property issues or give a toss neither does the consulate. It's the HBPG who are the only ones to fight for the buyers here.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:38

msg 15: that will teach you to leave your car unlocked.



Next time tou are back in N.I. can you see if my family's land is ready to be given back ?



I feel I have met you somewhere before!

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 17:44

there's an old saying that you "cannot ride two horses with one behind"



christophias' lot has every moral right to claim for property the gc's lost:

they are doing their darndest (takes off hat) to persue a campaign

to recover what was rightfully theirs and punish the terrible miscreants



unfortunately the very impact of this powerful and complicated offensive

for which they have, some would argue, a very strong case indeed

rather puts the mokkers on the talks with blockaded, isolated north cyprus!

who would compromise with someone who was trying to strangle you?



for as musin puts it "they still do not trust the gc's"

does anyone still believe the gc regime could now be trusted enough

to allow the turkish army to safely leave for home?



but some of you shout "yes" I hear!

"you may be right sir and you sir, you madam, and you sir, you may be right"



who can tell?



andre

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 21:17

deecyprus:



"Musim you are a wise owl with many pearls of wisdom..."



What, because he's a Londrali who happened to watch something on telly and merely commented: "prehaps not a lot has really changed between gcs and tcs."?



Some people are easily impressed by such searing analysis...

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 21:25

WAZ,



The analogy was appropriate as we are talking about stolen property and the handling of stolen property by others. The land was "simply occupied", as you describe, because the legal owners were either murdered or ethnically cleansed



"Any ROC citizen that legitimately left titled land has no claim on assets on the said land."



Maybe I'm missing something here. I was under the impression that several legal judgements have been made which assert the owners of "exchange" land in the "TRNC" are Greek Cypriots.



Hence Apostolides has a piece of paper saying the property in Lapithos, north Cyprus, is his and the English trespassers, the Orams, must demolish what they built on it.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 21:28

Tiggy:



"Next time tou are back in N.I. can you see if my family's land is ready to be given back ?"



Sure thing. Just tell me exactly where it is - county, town, parish and address - and I expect I'll get a very prompt answer for you.



"I feel I have met you somewhere before!"



You'd be surprised how many people I remember from the charge bar.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 22:40

yeah macha and pike are the same,

dimly remember pike used the term londrali once before

susanna and juliet are the same person too



these infiltrators are very useful on the board

because their line of work, blindly hostile to north cyprus,

gives us a chance to consider and demolish their tired arguments

of course I generally disagree since I prefer to think for myself...



the label pike was faded off the screen because he predicted

a re-unification deal in june and sorry there just ain't gonna be one!

and that's also what ozdil nami said back in 2008...

so obvious we need to change malta's advertising slogan into:

"the mediterranean's worst kept secret"



I really feel sorry for the "genuine" cyprus 44 membership though

still searching for a home for four kittens,

drink each other under the table on gold fassel,

and asking about taxi rides from larnaca and best buys at ikea

but that's better than arguing the toss about something that won't happen!



andre

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 23:02

andre,



That's an excellent post!

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
07/02/2009 23:06

Macha,

I fear that this is old troden ground.

However, The Orams case goes on. Mr Apostolides gets older and he has yet to return to the land to which he has a claim upon. Mr Apostolides has no claim upon the Orams house in Lapta. This remains an asset of the Orams. It is only the land that Mr apostolides has a claim upon.

He is clearly intent upon political revenge. Shame. He could so easily settle out of court with the Orams. It would cost far less than his litigation which at best will provide him with very little reward.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 00:09

mark, re msg 27



the mechanics of apostolides' claim, the rights and wrongs of his "case"

...this is all very well, but if they are successful at the ecj

they may then go back and try again to have a uk district court

make an order in their favour, even though apostilides' lawyer said:

"there is a long way to go yet"



although many are doubtful that the house of lords

would ever support any ruling spilling over from a foreign controversy

and predjudice the security of the orams' british home,

the publicity would be very bad for the struggling economy of north cyprus

and give quite the wrong impression about the place



as regards the bloke' actual case, he may feel he has lost out

or it could simply be a vehicle to use to clobber north cyprus (again)

but all these manoevers "will not help in the current talks"



but then again, these talks will lead nowhere anyway...



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 10:32

Dear Andre re msg 28



*IF* you look at the time line of Mr Apostolides' claim you'd realise it was started



1/ before the latest initiatives



2/ without "help" from the state.



Once again, *I* believe this case and the thousands "on hold" at the ECHR ( as GCs should be trying to use Turkey's chance to provide a local remedy and -foolishly- the GCs aint "piling in" ) accelerate the need to provide a settlement.



When the action started the GCs had a VERY different govt.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 10:45

Waz re msg 8



"I do not believe that you are any better placed than myself to interpret the wish of Cypriots. "



Warren, your claim ""Essentially the ROC seek to claim the booty created from the betterment of property that was vacated in the 70,s." shows that *you* certainly have not the first clue ...



I'm in a far better position to know the GC attitude as I campaigned for a GC YES to Annan and know hundreds of GCs who had to flee from their homes in 74 and their attitudes... NOT ONE - thinks as you state - no matter how unrealistic they are..



I can't work out if your comment was meant as mischief or just "clueless".





If you are going to post with some authority re matters Cyprus- you need to spend some time in the "south".

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 16:57

msg 29



to return to a very basic question:

"what" need to provide "which" settlement???



yes, if the turkish army leaves cyprus there will have been a settlement

and no, if they stay on the island there is not going to be re-unification



I'm not pontificating that there should or shouldn't be one, I'm not a cypriot,

but a bad settlement would be worse for some folks than no settlement at all



I'm also not clear whether your contributions to this north cyprus forum

are created from a "moral analysis" perspective (nothing wrong in that)

or written from an "personal benefit" viewpoint (nothing wrong in that either),

in other words "what's your angle?"



hope you don't think I'm being unduly cynical but good luck anyway,



andre

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 18:39

mmmmmm



I am beginning to find your derogatory comments somewhat offensive.

Please kindly refrain.



You are "in a far better position"....A really think that your assumption is rather presumptive and arrogant.

I think that your Anan era experience is rather outdated.



My family have been present upon the Island primarily in the south since 1964.

One in particular, a excellent and concise author, wrote many informative letters pertaining to the Cypriot history from from 1964 to 1981.

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 18:46

andre

msg 31.



Your comment is very valid.



I believe that no settlement is untenable.

The political landscape on the Island continues to evolve.

The European status of the ROC places a firm agenda for solution.



This solution will in my estimation be driven vigourously forward by the UN and the EU.



The pedantics regarding recognition and civil litigations are only frustrations to the important agenda for solution.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 18:52

tiggy wish your comments were true. as an irish person displaced to birmingham i wish i could go and get my grannies houses . we hae moved on . We know what its like i wish with my heart that these two governments coud do the same. Who would have thought Gery Adams could shake hands with the tiesoich. they should look to ireland as they have so many similarties and even mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm will or should agree/ none f us will know my guess its already been decided xxxx

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 20:40

lilli,



don't totally bite my head off but: we are not quite out of the wood yet

wasn't there an "incident" recently which fortunately was sorted in time?

let's hope the irish question continues to be resolved in a neighbourly way



taking the parallel of cyprus, even if there is a "deal" that might not be the end:

the cyprus issue was supposedly "sorted" in 1960 but it merely lasted 3 years



but despite all the alarums and excursions I still think north cyprus is magic

those of us priveledged to know it will understand

once we were stopped on a country road by a flock of sheep crossing,

the sky brooding, the breeze gentle, the warmth and humidity overwhelming

a scene that cannot have changed in thousands of years



it is sad but true, the illegal blockade means parts of the trnc are deserted

I'd better not say where and you wouldn't guess but I know of ruins

and hundreds of meters of moonlit empty beach, free from trippers and pizzas



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 21:07

Dear Andre re msg 35



I already answered the "what's your angle" question 9 days ago... It went over three posts long... !!

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 21:57

Dear Waz re msg 33



!I am beginning to find your derogatory comments somewhat offensive.



Please kindly refrain."



This from the guy who posted ""Essentially the ROC seek to claim the booty created from the betterment of property that was vacated in the 70,s."..



Warren if you are going to post patent nonsense, be ready for plenty more criticism... I was stating fact - not an opinion..



Actually, my Annan experience taught me a lot - and the experience is still valid - the strength of feeling of the next generation of GCs is very strong..due to schooling & what their leaders have led them to believe is a "just " settlement.



A wise TC leader and Turkey would realise this and what he/ they are up against.



It is clear that you aren't "wise" - and neither are they - as the GCs still have the "upper hand" when a "wise" leader could have used the TC Yes, to win lots of concessions from outside Cyprus... making the GCs realise the TCs had a leader with whom they could trust.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 23:30

there was a 1960's singer who sang:



"let's sing another song boys, this one's grown old and bitt-er"



andre

WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
08/02/2009 23:38

mmmmmmmm

Your comments continue to be offensive on a personal level. I shall refrain from passing comment upon your postings, not because I am shy to debate but because of the degenerating format of your comments against individuals.



I hope that when you are able to clean up your act soon so that we can continue to debate.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/02/2009 00:04

Dear Waz re msg 39



Warren, I am sorry you feel that you can't debate... YES it's got personal.. you can still admit your post re :



"the ROC seek to claim the booty created from the betterment of property that was vacated in the 70,s." was "unwise" and we can continue to debate...

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
09/02/2009 09:58

Dear Andre re msg 31 ( not 35) as I previously posted..



in case you can't find my previous response to your "where are you coming from?"



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/10211.asp



msgs 58 etc...



Hope that helps ;)