What ........ between the State of Israel and TRNC

LondonCypriot


Joined: 15/12/2008
Posts: 426

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 17:17

What are the differences and similarities between the state of Israel which was formed in 1947 and the TRNC - Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus which was formed in 1984. Both have stripes in their flags.



Thanks

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 17:41

IMHO there are no similarities...the TRNC was formed to protect the TC's, Israel was formed to provide a murdering machine against the Muslims...radical I know but it is my opinion.

SaraP


Joined: 30/04/2008
Posts: 295

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 17:52

Don't know, I give up...what are the differences? Joke right?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 17:59

re msg 1 LC



Hi LC..



Differences



1/ Israel was recognised by the UN as a state - not condemned and members told NOT to recognise, like "TRNC".



2/ Israel became a state in *1948* and "TRNC" didn't in *1983*.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 18:03

3/ England is in a right old state in 2009

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 18:08

Dc4 What aload of racist crap...













Ps , nevertheless they are her views , just like yours are yours *** Simbas ***

david123


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 393

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 18:19

Hi Coachie,



Well said Dee is good at that,



always going one sided.



David

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 18:28

David ..She will probably want every one in TRNC to man the barricades against the Zionists murderers next.I am going now because she really does get upmy nose with some her stupid statements...











*** PS , Dee does have strong views , be they right or wrong . She is entitled to them , you don't have to respond or make personal remarks about her Simbas ***

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 19:39

Coachie if you dont mind I am entitled to my opinion...if you dont like it...TOUGH

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 19:40

BTW coachie, I dont care to much for you either.











Post moderated for personal remarks.

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 20:29

Personal remarks regarding someones appearance is not very nice. And deserve to be moderated or banned.

david123


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 393

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 22:05

Hi Coachie,



yes I do agree she does say some stupid things, but like Dee does say she can have her opinion.



Dee you do make my laugh (msg 10)



lol.



David

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
12/02/2009 22:08

It's rather sad that Dee confuses her fanatism with having an opinion.

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 02:59

msg 4



it is true that israel was recognised by the un in 1948

but it is not recognised as a state

by it's two most fearsome opponents, iran and syria



north cyprus although not actually illegal, is not internationally recognised

because the powers that be, choose to regard the greek cypriots

as paragons of tolerance and virtue although this may not aways be true



and remember that at the time of the 1974 turkish peace operation

greece was ruled by a military junta in cahoots with eoka b militants,

and the greek cypriot regime was only stopped in the nick of time

from ethnicaly cleansing the island, the final logical outcome of enosis



a little-appreciated fact is the regional strategic alliance

between israel and turkey, both outsiders in their own way,

the armies train together and military tactics are studied



andre

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 06:36

I really do not care whether you agree with me or not or whether I get up your noses, on your tits or whatever, I am entitled to my opinion, so if you dont like it, I really do not care one iota...



I know there are many that do agree with me and that is what I care about, they may not be brave enough to voice it on here for fear of being attacked you lot of liberal do gooders.

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 06:55

Stripes on flags.

The Israel flags stripes are the Euphrates and the Nile in reality its the Euphrates and the Mississippi. (bit difficult for some to work out I suppose)



The main difference is Israel has been allowed to land grab by armed aggression and let to get away with it whilst TRNC is regarded as a pariah.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 07:51

Edit to my msg 2 I should have said Palestinians rather than muslins in general, this is not an apology but a correction

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 07:52

Hippo, excellently put, take a bow my friend.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 07:57

David as I have said I really dont care what you think of me ...I think nothing about you lol...

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 08:29

Simbas thank you very much..all I ask for is fair moderation, you are a good, fair and balanced moderator.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 10:16

Dear Andre re msg 14



"north cyprus although not actually illegal"



To correct you:



http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr541.htm



point 2 concerning " the attempt to create a "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus", is invalid, and will contribute to a worsening of the situation in Cyprus..



2: "the declaration referred to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal"



legally invalid means not not legally valid = *illegal*

batterboy58



Joined: 20/04/2008
Posts: 442

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 10:41

Deecyprus4



"I really do not care whether you agree with me or not"



"I know there are many that do agree with me and that is what I care about"



Seems like you are rather confused, perhaps you should refrain from posting until you have made up your mind.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 11:13

Batterboy I am not confused at all, coachie and david and probably a few others dont agree with me but there are many that do...hope you understand that

david123


Joined: 07/07/2008
Posts: 393

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 19:48

Hi Dee,



Like I said you can say what you like it's free.



Thanks for the apolgy for msg 2 thought you were wrong again. lol



Thanks.



David

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 19:54

David I am a woman ...I am never wrong lol

DutchCrusader



Joined: 19/05/2008
Posts: 11281

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 20:16

RE msg 18, Dee : (...) Hippo, excellently put, take a bow my friend. (...)



===> Don't bow too low, dear Dee, you may smell your own and "Hoppi's" sh*t...

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
13/02/2009 21:10

You must admit DC its better than cheese

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 00:33

I think there is a close parallel between the palestinians and the greek cypriots



both have over the years been offered various compromises by a neighbour

but have only rejected it every time, while what is on offer gets less and less



in the case of the gc's all they had to do was a little power-sharing in the 60's

but oh no they wanted the whole flippin' cake factory...

now they sit engrossed in legalistic endevours as all the old cypriots die off,

or have their sympathisers clutter-up this forum gagging to tell us the "truth"

as if we didn't know there are two sides to every story, or care that much



in 1948 after a majority vote of the then membership, the un offered the palestinians half of partitioned palestine including some of the best bits

but they wanted the whole hog (oops!) and look where they've ended up?

their world view likewise never touches for one moment on how their obdurate intransigence and disarray got them into this unenviable position



andre

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 01:15

Does that make you a ''Red Sea Pedestrıan'' then, Andre?



Come on now, surely a Jew can get along wıth lıttle old Armenıan me?

Hippo


Joined: 02/02/2007
Posts: 2070

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 05:56

1948-52 Mass immigration of Jews from Europe and Arab countries into Israel. But of the 1,200,000 Palestinians living in Palestine at the time of the League of Nations Mandates, more than 725,000 are driven out of their homeland or flee the fighting that accompanies the creation of a Jewish state. Only 160,000 remain in Israel itself. The Israeli government allows only a few to return after WWII is over. By 1950, over one million live in UN-supported refugee camps in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon and Jordan. The camps become centers of political militancy.

Drivin out by land grabbing Zionists who would not be happy till the last palestinian had left.

(see any similarities to the GC's stand on TC's) in the 60's

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 14:59

Dear Hippo ( re msg 30)



No.. and nor seemingly did the UN, in recognising the state of Israel.

horselover


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 129

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 16:47

er..going back to stripes n flags..i thought it was a crested moon n a star.wheres the stripes? the big one on the mountain aont got one, so is there another flag that represents trnc?

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:17

you will appreciate that when the un vote on palestine was held in 1947

much of the present-day un membership were still under colonial rule,

and a similar vote would not now prevail



it is also true that after their vehement rejection of the un partition plan,

many palestinians were forced to leave by zionist gangs



on the other hand large numbers of palestinians eg around haifa for example,

were instructed by the grand mufti to vacate their homes temporarily,

but soon to return in glory after the widely-anticipated victory of the nine arab states which attacked israel on its declaration of statehood in may 1948...

british general montgomery predicted that israel would survive only two weeks,

but events took an unexpected course



the gc's also never appreciated turkey could easily make mincemeat of them:

just like the palestinians, the greek cypriots had never before had their own state and both grossly overreached themselves, when first given the chance



andre

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:24

Dear Andre, re msg 33



"the gc's also never appreciated turkey could easily make mincemeat of them:



just like the palestinians, the greek cypriots had never before had their own state and both grossly overreached themselves, when first given the chance "



Let's not forget, that GCs and TCs were forced to accept the 190 Constitution, and forces within and without had different ideas about how to take it forward or to destroy it.



Of, course you'll know, really, that many GCs, more likely the majority weren't in favour of the right wing Coup or its leaders.



The TCs ( esp. Mr Denktash) had a Taksimist agenda, and hardly contributed to the smooth running of the parliament - over zealous use of the veto....



As normal. there are two sides to every story.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:31

I've posted this before so apologies to those who have already read it. The work of Barry Oshry shows that human conflicts fall in to a predictable pattern.

He wrote his work to get humans to realise that we play a dance, that the terrible dance of power plays right through us. If we recognise the dance then we can step back from it and change the pattern.



The conflict in the middle East and Cyprus closely match this pattern.



First there is he high power people (the majority) who hold a vision (an ideology)



The GC’s as the higher power held the resources and opportunities. They also held their vision, which was enosis. Israel (not the majority though) also has it’s vision and owns the resources (particularly water) .



Standing in the way of the higher peoples vision is the lower people (who do not control the resources ) TC’s stood in the way of the GC’s and the Palestinians stand in the way of the Israelis (and the United States religious) vision.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:33

part 2



Step 2 – The Higher power people see themselves as special. Perhaps they believe that god believes them to be special or perhaps their ancestry is special and they are indeed the chosen race.



The Higher people start to see the lower people as insignificant, unworthy, unclean or even evil.



The higher people see themselves as a we and see the lower people as a them. They are different to us.



The GC’s see themselves as a we and the TC’s as a them. The Isrealis see themselves as a we and the Palestinians as a them



Step 3 – The higher people start acting against the lower people. They start to make life difficult for the lower people and life better for themselves. They stop the lower people practising their faith, or take away their rights, land or properties and force them in to enclaves or ghettos



The GC’s forced the TC’s in to enclaves. Israelis have probably done something similar

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:34

part 3



The higher people can do the above without shame or guilt because they are the higher people ordained by god or their superior ideology and they can do that because the lower people are lesser people, less significant, unclean or even evil.



Step 4 – The lower people object mildly, even apologetically. They do not want to upset the higher people, after all they are the minority, they do not hold any power and do not have the resources. The lower people respond fearfully and with trepidation.



TC’s complain of harassment, unequal and unfair treatment. Palestinians probably do the same



Step 5 – The higher people are affronted and they see the response by the lower people as criticism and complaining. The higher people ignore the claims of the lower people, they break promises and they sometimes intensify their oppression of the lower people.



Step 6 – A radical group develops inside the lower people. They demand to be treated fairly. They call for drastic action.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:35

part 4



They don’t want to be accommodated by the higher group they want fundamental change even separation from the higher people. This radical group will do whatever it takes to get power or control.



Denktas and his radicals wage war on the GC’s. The radical group Hamas develops and wages war on the Israelis.. (aided by Hezbollah in Iran)



The radicals become a we and as a we you can do whatever you want to the them. The higher group are lesser, insignificant, unclean and even evil.



Step 7 – The radicals go to war with the moderates in the lower people and all of the higher people



TC radicals and Hamas are not concerned if moderates in their own group are killed in the war. The goal is to create power at all costs

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:38

part 5



Step 8 – A split in the higher group takes place between accomodators and extremists. The accomodators want to make right with the lower people. They want equality with the lower people. The extremists are angry with the radicals in the lower people. Thy want revenge.



The radicals in the higher people see themselves as a we and see the accomodators as a them.



GC’s goes to war with GC’s. GC’s kill other GC’s. Extremists kill accomodators and accomodators take revenge. Something similar but less violent probably happens between Palestinians.



And the dance goes on and on sometimes with the two sides changing power.



The point is that humans being who are playing the dance can get caught in this trap. The Palestinians could have done the same to the Israelis and the TC's to the GC's

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 17:54

msgs 35-39



don't mean to carp and I'm not trying to speciously link the two conflicts but:



who utimately owns all the water in the middle east, is er.... turkey



the rain that falls on the turkish mountains is the source of all the waters,



notably the euphrates, tigris, banias and jordan



they have now built an enormous dam with this slogan written on it:



"how glorious it is to be a turk" (macha and juliet please note)



so can decide just how much water flows to syria, iraq, palestine and israel



and er...north cyprus



andre

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 18:02

well andre, with water becoming the most valuable resource then Turkey is going to hold a lot of power.

Again this makes Russia a big player having the biggest freshwater lake in the world. Did you know (and you probably do) that it would take 100 years to fill up Lake Baikal if all the rivers of the world flowed in to it. I was astounded when I read that.



From my understanding Israel have cut up the territory so that they control the water that flows in to the region. That is why I mentioned it. I could have mentioned other stuff such as their military dominance.

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 18:11

ps

I understand that Turkey is damming allot of it's rivers to provide electricity. I wonder if this is staring to impact the middle East?

The other issue is that those dams are in Kurdish territory.Lots of people have been moved. Might get hard for Turkey to control Kurdish reactions. What do you reckon?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 18:48

Dear ILC re 42



One of things that stuck me about Russia was how water is not treated as the precious resource that even the UK need to do in dry Summers



They don't really put plugs in the sink - and find it strange how we fill in basin to shave - they want a constant flow of clean water !



Russia is rich in many resources and IF it could ever get its act together....





If Cyprus used the heat of the sun it could power all the elecricty it needs and desalinate..



It could be that wars will be over WATER not oil, soon...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 19:28

That is true MM, if Russia got it's act together then it would be a real power house.



I watched the recent Dimbleby series on Russia. It was very interesting, especially Russias stance on democracy. They can't understand the wests love affair with democracy. They are very happy to be controlled by strong leadership, dare I say dictatorship.



Yes, water is going to be a big issue like many other environmental limitations. I wonder, if one day, Cypriots will be begging to come and live in the UK as their land becomes inhabitable.



Perhaps desalination is the answer. Perhaps Turkey will eventually supply an abundance of water for the whole of Cyprus to enjoy.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 21:09

Dear ILC re msg 44



What a GREAT series that was.. made especially interesting as UK -RU relations were REALLY going down the pan as he filmed.. do you remember the "fuss" when he wanted to film the jail where Mikhail Khodorkovsky - the "bizinessman" who Putin made an example of - in Siberia?



It's a bit like the pre-conception many of us had about Germans - and how we saw them on holidays - reserving the sun beds with towels.. Russians IN Russia when you are their guest remind me of Ireland - they REALLY make you feel special.



Democracy? : I will NEVER understand Russian attitude to their leaders and Democracy.. all they want is to be able to get on with their lives - they shrug their shoulders at corruption.. "we need strong leaders"...

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
14/02/2009 21:15

I'm not at all sure the russians are different to anyone else about democracy:



it's just that the present incumbant has presided over years of stability and economic expansion, people especially in the cities have tasted the good life

while everyone remember how their life savings lost all value 20 years ago,

and after that all the shops were empty and companies destitute for ages



already as the local economy there is deeply affected by the new world crisis

and a collase in energy prices, mutterings of discontent are beginning to stir



the state security took their eye off the ball for a moment

and look at the result, gorbachov and collapse of the ussr,

such a thing will not be allowed to happen for a second time



meanwhile russia is again respected as a world power though one pundit said:

"russia is never so strong as it looks, but never so weak as it looks"



andre

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 12:09

Simbas.. For any one to say that "isreal is a murder machine against the Mulims" is way out of order.If that is the case they could have exterminated the vast majority of moslims long ago.Egypt,Syria,Jordan all learned a long time ago that they were not going to remove her from the map,so they gave up on that idea.If Iran,Hamasses backers dont watch what they are doing Israel wont hesitate to protect her country from fanatical moslims..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 13:13

Dear Andre re msg 46



Putin was only going to remain popular as long as Russians felt better off "it's the economy ,stupid" applies in Russia, too..



Vladivostok has seen MASSIVE anti -govt demos as they are the city most affected by a sudden HUGE increase in used cars - coming in from Japan



When the govt made it more difficult to make political parties and to gain representation - no many folk cared...



*I* think "Democracy" will become more important -if this recession lasts and I worry about how this govt will react- Russia is fond of manufactured "distractions" - to unite folk - when things get tough..

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 13:20

Coachie you missed the point, my views are my views and do not warrant an onslaught of abuse from you...end of.....

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 14:03

Sorry re msg 48



"affected by huge DUTY increases in cars imported from Japan.. "



re Dee 49, still calling Pot black, I note ;D

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
15/02/2009 15:29

DC4..If saying you get up my nose offends you,and what a load of racist crap,offends you,then you must be an awfully sensitive person.If you didnt come out with such ridiculous comments then I and probably numerous others would be a lot more civil towards you. if you cannot stand the heat,get out of the kitchen.If 2 minor commentsconsist an "onslaught of abuse" god help you if some one does decide to insult you..

andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 10:01

msg 48



mark, so you agree with my posting 46 or not?

I'd assume yes



"difficult...to gain representation"

yes, when OMON are bashing you over the head with a truncheon



the best story was that BP were devastating forests in the far east:

they'd had to cut down trees to clear the route for an ageed pipeline



it's not a cuddly regime but it had done wonders to restore stability and pride

it has the narrowist view of russian interests that's why it backs your chums, up to the hilt



I shake in my shoes



andre

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 10:13

Coachie, whether you like it or not I am entitled to my opinion, I can deal with anything you and your ilk care to throw at me, just be prepared to get it back ten fold, I do not take prisoners, what I originally complained about was the fact that I was moderated for what I said to you but you were not tho you were rude to me and if you fail to understand that then god help you!!!!



Please do not attempt to patronise me either, you are simply not clever enough!!

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 10:22

mmmmm grow up, get a life and get an education on the cyprus problem

simbas



Joined: 16/07/2007
Posts: 5943

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 10:34

Hi Coachie , i hear what you say , , but because i have moderated on this thread , will not make any comment other than to say again . Whether one agrees or not people have their own views and we do have to respect that fact

Regards , Simbas

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 11:13

Dear Andre re msg 48 ( and 46)



I don't know if we agree or not.. ! My Darling Wife still thinks Putin is the man for the job - that Russia needs "strong leaders" !



Most Russians don't care as long as they can get on with their lives in peace :0



I always worry than when totalitarian ( or near ) regimes find the going tough.. they always need a "crisis" that will unite, to restore "popularity"..

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 11:32

Re msg 54 Dee



That's right Dee, don't deal with the observation - "come back" with some that proves my point ...



Talking of "education re Cyprus" - I'm sure you've found my link to the 101 Mosques in the "rump" RoC..



I even worked out that if you drive on the Motorway from Nicosia to Limas(s)ol you can see at least Six..



Even better, as you arrived back into Limas(s)ol port from Egypt, you'll have seen at least FIVE on the western Limas(s)ol skyline..



Dee, education begins when you can accept you said something that is CLEARLY wrong ( re Cyprus) and fail to address it, while pointing out folk are "rude" to you ;)



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/10135.asp



msg 67



my response:



http://www.mfa.gov.cy/mfa/embassies/embassy_doha.nsf/All/8367AC21D2B39069432572E400246FC3?OpenDocument&highlight=mosques



We are STILL waiting....

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 11:38

msge 56



Agree with your comments mm. Often these type of regimes can create an external enemy to unite the country and to spawn national fervour. It focuses the mind away from ones internal troubles. And you can bet your life a KGB trained operative would know how to make this happen.



MM, Is there a sense in Russia of people knowing their place? Not necessarily being subservient, but people are conditioned to accept a certain status in the country and not to rise above their standing (I am talking about the mases not the minor exceptions). This being a legacy of the Soviet Union.

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 11:45

mmmm once I have investigated for myself and discovered that you are correct (unusual statement in itself) then I shall acknowledge the same...I would not take anything you say at face value as sadly you talk of load of old twaddle

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:19

Dear ILC re msg 58



Russia is a HUGE country - made up of many different ethnicities - but on the whole they are VERY proud of their nation..



For 10-15 years they saw their nation become a laughing stock - "thank you, Boris" and many still believe it is all Gorby's fault - that he was weak and foolish !!



Putin is REALLY smart.. he knows what makes Russians tick... He "flattened" an Oligarch who reneged on the unwritten rule - " you stick to biz and leave me to Politics and we'll be OK" - and nationalised his assets.



Russians are REALLY peed off that a tiny %age of Oligarchs hold so much power / wealth.



Mr Putin first got the old Soviets and new Capitalists onside by cleverly linking the old Soviet flag to the new ( well old, pre Communist) Russian flag - the 60th celebration of the end of the Great Patriotic War ( WWii) was a "masterpiece"..



Russians genuinely believe that NATO broke a deal in 1989 NOT to expand - to take advantage of the soviet Unions breakup.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:25

Winston Churchill sums up Russia well - even today ! ..



made in a radio broadcast in October 1939:



"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."



YES, Russian people do "know their place" and the "futility of Politics" - but don't assume that as "weakness or stupidity" - Russia is a country of extremes... when the lid blows... it has historically lurched politically BIG TIME..



If Mr Putin, sorry, "Mr Myedbyedyev " can counter corruption, and improve the way of life - Russians will overlook the Democratic "lapses"...

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:26

Thanks MM



I think NATO is very foolish in touting Ukraine and Georgia for NATO membership, countries in Russias back yard.

As you say Russia is an incredibly proud nation, who see's itself as being a no 1 world player, and will do whatever it takes to stay in the upper echelons of world power. It can't afford to slip down the rankings.

After all Russia keeps asking the West who is your enemy?

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:29

Dear Dee, re msg 59



"mmmm once I have investigated for myself and discovered that you are correct (unusual statement in itself) then I shall acknowledge the same..."



Hi Dee, this was nearly a SIGNIFICANT improvement, until



"I would not take anything you say at face value as sadly you talk of load of old twaddle "



Keep digging, away.. ;)

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:31

Dear ILC re msg 62



It was the USA that was pushing for us to let Georgia and Ukraine in..





Ukraine is the key ... Russia does NOT want that country moving out of it's sphere of influence.. PLENTY of games going on .. the Gas issue is an example..

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:34

msge 61



"YES, Russian people do "know their place" and the "futility of Politics" - but don't assume that as "weakness or stupidity" - Russia is a country of extremes... when the lid blows... it has historically lurched politically BIG TIME.. "



Ceratinly don't see this as weakness and stupidity, well certainly not in the true sense of those words.



I think humans and nations traverse along a path of development. What guides this path are the conditions that each individual and nation faces.

Two ways to think about this is openness and complexity (complexity being an expanded awareness and dealing with multiple facets of interpretation not intellect).



As nations become more open and transparent they become more complex (in thinking) and as they get more complex they get more open, eventually leading to more democrat and inclusive systems. Eventaully thses systems go more global. At this presnt time most democratic systems are not trully democratic because they

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:36

are not fully open and have greater potential for complexity.



Russia is probbaly still more closed than open, intellectually intelligent but still developing complexity

ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:39

ps



Applies to TRNC as well. It's a closed system, lacking openness and complexity of thinking.

More trading, more opportunities, more inclusiveness and integration with it's wider system, more education for the masses, greater mentoring from sister nations, greater travel for it's people etc will more it towards openness and complexity

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:46

horselover:



''er..going back to stripes n flags..i thought it was a crested moon n a star.wheres the stripes? the big one on the mountain aont got one, so is there another flag that represents trnc?''



Tacky and ludicrous as most sensible people find this kitsch Blackpool-style monstrosity, it does apparently include stripes.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 12:50

andre:



"how glorious it is to be a turk" (macha and juliet please note)



Adolf Hitler made similar racist-imperialistic statements.



Read the statement again, say it aloud a few times. Peurile nonsense and rather silly, isn't it?

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
16/02/2009 13:40

Simbas..I totally agree with you about people have the right to there opinions,but I also have the right to reply,asDC4says,"whether she likes my reply or not" thats just to bad.No foul or insulting language was used by me in either of the responses I made,Purely every day language. If at any time you think I am being rude or offensive then moderate me at all times,I have no problem with that at all..

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
17/02/2009 01:08

coachie,



Between certain people favourıtism goes on...