Right to Reply

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 09:27

I do hope this thread is not in contravention of any rules.



In an earlier thread that was closed Macha addressed some questions to me personaly after the thread was closed (by a couple of minutes, obviously the closing post and the comments made after 'crossed' another limitation of this forums functionality)



Anyway I would like to be able to respond to that post of Macha and clearly can not do so in the orginal closed thread hence this one.



Machas post is at the end of this thread



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/11959.asp



Macha said



"What a pity that someone with such high ideals and opinion of himself seems unwilling to accept the same of another."



First off I see high ideals in many other people, not just in words but much more importantly in their actions. This does not mean that I think everyone has such high ideals and often those that shout about them loudest are not the same as those that act on them in a consistent manner.



(cont)

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 09:27

You say I have a high opinion of myself. If that is to based on the amount of times I have self declared my superior moral standards, my impartiality, my superior knowledge , my professional status and unquestionable integrity, then my high opinion of myself is nothing compared to you of yours. Even a cursory 'analysis' of our comparative posts on a number of different forums on this point would show this.



"Think about it for a minute, Erolz. You have never met me. Do you REALLY know my motivation on these forums?"



No I do not really know you outside of your posts on these forums. I am more than aware of the limits of understanding someone properly and thier motivations from such a single perspective which is why in the past I have made several attempts to suggest a face to face meeting none of which you have ever responded to. In the absense of any other available means of understanding you and your motivations I have only your years of posts n forums like these on which to form

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 09:28

a view. Years of persistent unbalanced one sided distorted misleading inaccurate and half truth based assertions peppered with ad hominem attacks on those that challenge such post but not others that support your apparent agenda.



I may have got you all wrong. If that is the case I would welomce the chance to gain a better and more complete understanding. I once again suggest that we meet in person so that I can understand you and where you come from as you can me. Just give me a time and a place I can fit in with and I am there.

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 10:44

Erol,

You answer every post meticulously and in a very systematic and logical way and I appreciate your efforts. In my case I always make my points and move on and I do not feel the impulse to counter every point made. I am more of an easy goer. So that's life and that is why it is never boring.

ismet

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 11:02

hi erol as elko says you do answer every one in a very logical and eloquent way. I do enjoy reading yours Josephs and even Macha as I try to weigh it all up myself.You wil always get hijackers on emotive threads. You always stick to your principles and speak from your heart.I hope you get to meet each other. Its not about scoring points its just that not everybody can agree, perhaps some have less knowledge, or it may be that what they write is actually what they beleive.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
10/03/2009 22:34

erolz,



I feel sorry that you have to answer this alleged intellectual in the way that you have. Listen to Izmet's words of wisdom.



Lilli you are indeed a lovely lady, but I feel you like to see the possible good in people to much.



And as for showing up for a meeting.........forget it......he has not got it in him as he is trapped behind his keyboard.





Offensive remarks - post edited.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 00:14

Erolz, I and as I suspect most people have been reading your postings with interest over the last few months.

I for one have seen some really good debates just go down the pan because some people are losing the argument and their one dimensional rhetoric has no real substance or in some instances any truth in them.

If people treated others with respect even if their veiws do differ then the debates would be of interest to most forum members but unfortunatly some members can not accept other peoples veiws or even accept they may be wrong, they simply have problems with this scenario and start throwing abuse.

I would suggest that you have many more interested readers than the others that engage with you so please do keep us all enlightened.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:14

Erolz: "I may have got you all wrong. If that is the case I would welomce the chance to gain a better and more complete understanding. I once again suggest that we meet in person so that I can understand you and where you come from as you can me. Just give me a time and a place I can fit in with and I am there."



Not on the island at the moment and was up to my ears when I was over last month. I'll try to summarise as much as possible. In this post I will try and be neither flippant nor provocative as I know that is how I probaby come across 80% of the time.



Every writer has something of the columnist in them. They want to set the agenda, stimulate debate, get people talking, open their eyes, be controversial, make people laugh, make people think, get some of their personality across.



I think I know a bit about Cyprus. I have a stake in the place and therefore a right to freedom of speech. I see people coming with very low knowledge levels. I see them being exploited



more..

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:21

and ripped off. My business is disclosure. I want people to know the truth. I want to tell them how bad it can get and how bad some people are. I disagree with using other people's property. I have a moral problem with it. People get angry and call me names. I become the enemy. I poke fun at some of these people but because we are on different wavelengths they get me wrong.



I get called a GC sympathiser when I'm an international law sympathiser. I get called a spy and worse. People (you) make below-the-belt insinuations that my background in information warfare and psyops means I must be on a paid mission by the south (if he's not for us then he's against us). Yet the people who say these things don't know me. They don't know what I'm about.



Diversity should mean freedoms of expression. If you hurt me I bleed. If you insult me I can feel it. Those in Cyprus who have actually met me would perhaps have a different impression of me. I know someone you know will have some



more...

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:30

kind of idea about me because I have had exactly this conversation with them. I called myself a "p****" because I realised that in making perceived attacks on his homeland I was insulting his community. I apologised for my manner and tried to explain it was my way to get people to pay attention to the that were wrong and needed to be put right.



I have no secret agenda, Erolz. I am in nobody's camp or pocket. I am my own man and sometimes that has led me into difficulties, because when something needs to be said I am generally the one who says it in black and white. I am passionate and compassionate I care about people and want to help them, regardless of where they come from. I beleieve in justice and democracy. I want fair play in north Cyprus. I get attacked for pointing out all the negatives, but I know there are good people and organisations out there. I want to push for what's right.



There's not a lot else I can add apart from saying I think you have got me wrong.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:33

Not on the island at the moment and was up to my ears when I was over last month. I'll try to summarise as much as possible. In this post I will try and be neither flippant nor provocative as I know that is how I probaby come across 80% of the time.



Well the next time you are on the Island have the decency to meet the man. the amount of time you spend on rthe forum suggests you have plenty of time on your hands.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:38

But I don't spend my time on forums calling people "turds". Now go away and let the man reply.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:44

Dear "Izzie"



re msg 4



If ErolZ was so "meticulous" in his posts - he wouldn't be jumping in on every thread I post and forgetting why he joined in ;)



I've missed ErolZ and I'm glad of his contributions, yours and Machas...



The world and this board would be a duller place!

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 13:53

I will try and be neither flippant nor provocative as I know that is how I probaby come across 80% of the time.



Well if you can try and get your 80% of the above down to very low figures, you will be doing well. Then I will not call you by that name or any others, to be honest I have no real desire to have any contact with you at all.



95% of my time I try to help others, enjoy a little fun and take part in the forum. I have met and talked to others off line and are now friends. The other 5% is/was dedicated to letting you know someone will not accept your behaviour to decent persons, erolz being one of them.



So an offer is on the table.



Tiggy.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 16:29

Tiggy: "Then I will not call you by that name or any others, to be honest I have no real desire to have any contact with you at all."



If you don't want any contact with me then why you can't keep away from me? Can't you make your mind up? My post was adressed to Erolz, not you. I try and contribute more to this board than calling myself a "virgin converter" and pretending I'm a GC boy called Kapparis Kid. Now that REALLY is fantasising and attention seeking. Have fun.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 21:49

tiggy: "...we are both lucky to still have our sense of humour then!"

And with your former virgin convertor and Kapparis Kid identities, yours is a particularly subtle and sophisticated sense of humour.Have the courtesy to meet with erolz.



Now you can get back to your 80% + of twisted & bitterness towards decent forum members.



No doubt we will be in touch.





Post edited for offensive remarks

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 21:52

gosh tiggy you being nice didn`t last long did it...;)

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:06

I will always be nice to you Juliet.







We should not be using this thread as your mate is waiting for a reply from erolz. Do you think he should now meet up with erolz as requested several times ??



(Im working all night.....send me a few messages and we may be able to get to know each other a little better)





Post edited for offensive remarks

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:11

what have i done for your being nice? it`s quite worrying....

simon


Joined: 08/06/2007
Posts: 19

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:13

And all of this will go a long way to welcome newcomers to the beautiful Island??



PM your differences.





Sir Skogs

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:17

Sir Skogs, msg 14.



The olive branch was offered by me in good faith.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:21

Oh Juliet.....you are making me go all silly here.........Maybe I can tell by the way you ignore me.....that you really fancy me!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:22

goodnight tiggy.. sweetdreams.... lets leave this thread for the big boys.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 22:29

What happened........I have just come round....Oh me head.....Who’s BEEN USING MY PC??



Juliet accept my apologies. I would never come out with something like that. I am very particular.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:28

Macha



I suggested we meet several years ago, because I am very aware that one can get a distorted impression of someone when the only means of communication is online text. That offer is still open. I want to understand you better especially if I have got you wrong and have made efforts to do so. The ball in this regards was and still remains in your court and has been there for years.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:29

You say your business is disclosure and wanting people to know the truth. The problem with this statement for me is that more often than not your disclosure is a limited disclosure and your truth is a half truth. Not only are your disclosures and truths partial in just about every case where they are such, it is in a way prejudice to TC community and TRNC and never to the GC community or RoC. Just to give one recent example where you used Nicos Sampson as an example that the (GC) RoC put murders on trial as a comparison to TRNC which does not put Akin on trial. It is true that the RoC tried and convicted Sampson. However it is not the full truth and someone like yourself must KNOW that it is not the full truth. It is your apparent active manipulation of the truth to create a misleading impression that for me undermines your claim of 'wanting people to know the truth'.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:29

It is not just the use of limited disclosure and half truths that undermines your claims for me. The fact that you never pick up even the most glaring and blatant 'untruths' of others if they are 'pro GC'. For me someone who was concerned with wanting people to know the truth would correct blatant untruths from anyone. However you do not do this. Again just to give one example. When Suzanne (Juliet?) claimed in a thread you started and was active in that "most [TC] are now coming to live on the south of the

island" , something that is so blatantly and obviously not true, you made no comment about this claim what so ever. For me someone who's business is disclosure and wanting people to know the truth would not ignore such a thing. Again this is just one of many examples I could give where your 'commitment' to the truth appears severely limited.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:30

It may be that you think you do not have to offer any balance or full disclosure or full truths or challenge all untruths equally, in the expectation that others will and thus balance over all will be achieved. You must be able to see however that as an individual such an approach defines you as one sided and inevitably that is how people judge you and your posts and your motives.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:31

Yet another thing that for me undermines your claim of being in the business of disclosure and wanting people to know the truth is your repeated use of other 'techniques' (along with half truths) that are anything but about wanting people to know THE truth. Like Ad hominem responses - attacking the poster and not the argument the poster makes. Again let me give a recent example. In a thread where a letter by an apparent GC living in Australia sent to the Cyprus Mail suggested there was nothing wrong with permanent separation if the vast majority of both communities wanted this and if the proportions were right, you immediately discounted the author of the letters view because 'he was in Australia and it's what Cypriots want that matters'. You ignored the content of the letter entirely and made no effort to address the 'argument'.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:32

When I pointed out you can be a Cypriot and live outside Cyprus and still have valid views and a right to those views you again ignored this argument I was making and instead replied with



"But of course you as a recent English immigrant would say that wouldn't you? Especially sitting as you are on a Greek Cypriot refugee's property. "



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:32

This approach of yours of discounting and ignoring a point being made by simply labelling the person making it as 'not a Cypriot', 'not a true Cypriot' , an 'immigrant' or someone who owns disputed property is not a rare or occasional thing. You do it and have done it repeatedly and again always in a targeted manner. I have never seen you use this 'technique' against anything Juliet posts for example , who is much 'not a Cypriot' as I am. This to me is just not the behaviour of someone who is simply in

the business of disclosure and wanting people to know the truth. It is for me much more consistent with someone in the business of trying to discount certain arguments and certain posters and not others.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:33

Now let me be clear here. The point of the above examples is not that it is PROOF that you are anything, be that a GC Sympathiser, a spy or anything else. The point of detailing the above is to show WHY I have the IMPRESSION of you that I do, from the limited means I have of knowing who you really are and what motivates you. I have always accepted that I may have a distorted impression of you but I have always tried to explain WHY that is , along with making efforts to meet in person to help me get a broader perspective on who you really are.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:33

You state that I made a below the belt insinuation that your self claimed expertise in information warfare (I made no mention of psyops btw) means you must be on a paid mission by the south. This was a below the belt post I admit that. It's aim however was not to show that you must be in the pay of GC in one way or another though I can understand why you might think that. For the record I do not believe that you are in anyone's 'pay'. The 'point' behind this post that I admit was below the belt was to highlight that someone with such expertise that so effectively uses the techniques

that you do (Ad hominem, half-truth etc etc), some of which I give examples of above, must do so with knowledge and intent as to what they are doing.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:34

The post was below the belt, but for me that is a rare occurrence. You yourself are not beyond the 'below the belt' approach and I believe use such way more often than I do. Is not trying to dismiss any opinion I offer about property settlement, based on the fact that I own disputed property and therefore anything I say MUST be based on pure selfish greed and a desire to personally benefit from GC suffering not a bit "below the belt"? Do you really believe that my ownership of disputed property (that I inherited, not bought myself) and selfish greed informs everything about my views on the Cyprus issues and property ? If not then why use this 'technique' as often as you have over the years ?



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:35

Is this, in reference to me, not 'below the belt'



"This man was murdered in cold blood by people who - like you - clearly thought they were judge, jury and executioner (OK, you didn't pull the trigge,r but you are partially justifying the killing)."



even more so when in fact no where did I 'partially justify the killing' and had explicitly stated prior to your post



"Being shot was totaly and unacceptably disproportionate to his provokation" and later



and



"These facts do not justify what happened to him and as I have clearly said already he did not deserve to be shot and the reaction to his provocation was totaly and unacceptably disproportionate."



You say these things about me (my views and opinions are motivated by personal greed and desire to profit from GC suffering and I am as bad as those who killed Solomou) yet do you know me , or what I am about any more than I do you? If I hurt do I not bleed? If I am insulted can I not feel it ?



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:36

As far as I have 'attacked' you and implied or stated you have an agenda or apparent agenda and questioned your motives and very rarely used 'below the belt' posts, they are at least based on alleged evidence found in the repeated use of techniques listed above by yourself. Can you say the same ? What is the alleged evidence that supports your accusations about me and my motivations? Where have I said or behaved in a manner on forums like this that would support a view of me as selfish, motivated only by greed and desire to gain from GC suffering and as bad as those that killed Solomou



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:37

Now having said all that I have above I am STILL willing to accept that it is possible that I have go you all wrong. I am still willing to try and draw a line under our previous interactions on these forums and find a better way forward. I am still willing and indeed eager to meet face to face so we can try and achieve this or look at other ways of achieving it instead of or as well as a face to face meeting. However I am afraid that you just protesting your innocence , when balanced against the impression I have from the way you have behaved and I have tried to detail above is NOT enough to do this.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:37

If I might suggest some ideas that WOULD help me to get a different impression of you then here are a couple. Every now and again make a post to a poster like Juliet (she is not the only one , but the clearest example) along the lines of 'hang on a minute Juliet, that is not really true / accurate / right'. If you have already made such then please do point them out to me for I am not aware of them.



I am aware of the occasional post where you state opinions that are critical of the RoC and these do go some way for me to balance the impression I have from the above listed behaviour of yours, but they are to few and far between to offer a counterbalance to me. Part of me (the cynical suspicious part) also wonders if they are not themselves just another 'technique' - namely the 'limited hangout'.



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
11/03/2009 23:38

Stopping your habit of writing off my views based on me being , according to you, an immigrant, not a true Cypriot, or motivated only by a desire to profit from GC suffering and personal gain, would also go a long way to improving my impression of you.



Finally contributing to threads like this one may help as well



http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/12073.asp



If you have any suggestions of what I could do that might change the way we view each other then please do make them. I mean that sincerely.



(appologies to anyone who finds long posts distressing in any way)

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 00:11

Erolz,



I appreciate the time time you've taken to lay out your thoughts. At the same time I laid myself bare and really can't add any more. I take on what you saying about different approaches resulting in different reactions and perceptions. But at the end of the day that's my style. It's only the internet.



If we were talkiing over beers it would be different. And although a meet-up has been mentioned unfortunately I'm usually very busy when I'm in Cyprus and had to call off a couple of socials last month.



more...



Regarding balance, as you point out I do criticise both sides - but this is a TRNC forum and I want to get things sorted in the part of Cyprus I have a home in. I would be moaning on the other side if things were reversed. And re Juliet's post about "most TCs going south", I remember the comment but at the time didn't think she was being literal, just like if I said to you "Most of the expats on this forum are ignorant bigots." Of course they aren't - it just s

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 00:16

cont.



It just seems that way sometimes.



You speak of your work with bicommunal groups. I applaud that as it shows someone with a good heart. I too have done voluntary work at home and overseas (ICRC/UN) and not for money. So we are both altruistic.



I'll end by saying, don't look for something that isn't there. It's just my style and nothing more.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 00:34

If we were talkiing over beers it would be different. And although a meet-up has been mentioned unfortunately I'm usually very busy when I'm in Cyprus and had to call off a couple of socials last month.





Post edited for offensive remarks.

Tiggy despite a previous warning regarding offensive remarks made towards another member you still persist in doing so. You will not get another warning about this. If it happens again you will be banned.

Bill. No1Doyen

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 00:42

Damm I hate this comittment to accuracy sometimes (or prob as MM would prefer to describe it to appear to have a comittment to accuracy) but....



Tiggy I have to say it is not really accurate to say I have asked to meet 'time and again'. I did make the offer a few years ago and maybe mentioned that a couple of times since then till now.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 01:00

Sorry erolz, I stand corrected. Well from a few years ago and now.....still you have got no further. He is a coward and hides behind his key board, as I said earlier. Knowing his name would be a start.....(real one that is.)

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 11:43

tiggy

i have met macha and all i will say is that you have him totally wrong!



erolz

i don't think macha deliberately ment to question your cypriotness so to put it.



from my experiences i find that tc's who have always stayed in cyprus have very different ideas from those tc's who have lived elsewhere and have returned.

he was possibly saying the same but did't put it too well.

i'm sure if you do get a chance to meet, you will also see that all the misinformation on the forums about people is not always true.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 13:09

Macha msg 40/41



As I say Macha in the face of the impression I have got from your posts alone and how they seem to me in my best judgment over a long time a simple decleration that you are a 'good guy' is not really sufficent to make me believe that. However I am willing to accept that it is a possibility (and always have done btw) and for my part I will try and avoid referances to 'agendas' and such like in dealing with your post. I also have to say I am not 'looking' for anything, beyond understanding which includes udnerstanding who you are and why you post as you do.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 13:19

fire starter msg 45



"he was possibly saying the same but did't put it too well."



I have to say this is not based on 'one instance'. It is based on a perception of a consistent pattern of behaviour over a long period of time. Try putting yourself in my position and imagine that you make efforts to try and explain your perspective, offer as much hard evidence in support of it, give details of where you think others evidence is lacking or insufficent, only to be met with 'well as a immgrant sitting on GC property you would say that'. Imagine how frustrating that is, even ignoring the inhernet inaccuracies of the assertion itself. Not once, not twice but many many times over and over. Imagine this this is done along with the other repeated 'behaviours' above also repeatedly over time. What would you think? I do not 'look' for such patterns but nor can I just ignore the evidence that suggest there may be such a pattern.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 17:55

Rose,



thanks for you opinion, but I have my own views



Whilst we are in contact and you know him so well, what is his real name?



Mine is Patrick Conlon.



await your reply.



Regards,



Patrick Conlon

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 18:33

Tiggy I understand your frustration…just recently KeithCaley berated me for standing my ground defending those I see as the weakest in our society.

(Tag faith schools, you can read it and make up your own mind)



I was berated for

"banging on far too much about what you thought from the viewpoint faith, and that anyone as fanatical as you about being right, and not seeing anyone else's point of view is almost ALWAYS WRONG.



To my knowledge I have "banged on" within two tags a few weeks apart.

So … two tags at length... now we read that Macha "has been banging on" for months... so presumably “ not seeing anyone else's point of view is almost ALWAYS WRONG”



Now on here, if I read it correctly... under various names... is this true...?



cont...

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 18:34

Macha ... is it true... that you have hidden/used various names, because, if so, this smacks of deceit and leaves all the good points you have made rather undermined and maybe explains why Tiggy is so angry with you?

Credibility needs truth.



KeithCaley, you had me fooled there for a while, I trusted and believed you, but as I say, ... I'm learning fast.





Regards Joseph

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 21:08

Erolz,



Please don't take this the wrong way, but I've explained my position at length and now feel you are adopting something of a Denktas position i.e. negotiating, but not necessarily in good faith. Why are you keeping this going, unless of course you don't think I am sincere?

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 21:46

Hi all,

I have read in detail your varying arguments which have validity. However, it is my view that you are wrong. The Cyprus problem is in reality about nothing more than money. Let us call it "Mammon." In whatever religion we look, the same issue seems to be always identified.



Now if you are a G.C. and have lived in the same environment for the last thirty-five years, are you going to wish to leave your neighbours, friends, childrens schools, churches, pubs etc.? Are you hell as like!!



If you are a T.C., having been forced from your home and eventually taking refuge in what we now loosely term the T.R.N.C., and for thirty-five years have formed friendships, developed relationships with neighbours, sent your children to a local school were they have made friends, gone to a local church where they have developed social contacts, are they going to leave that? Are they hell as like!!!



So come on guys, lets take a reality check.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 21:55

No-one in their right mind wishes to alter the status quo. The world has moved on. Of course there are issues, many too horrific to recall and of course they never will, nor should they, be forgotten. Do you want to dwell in the past and keep these issues to carry forward to the next generation or do you need to move on?



Once a root is found for people to adequately express their hurt and the pain they felt from incidents in the past has been aired, do you really wish it to be carried forward by their children and their children's children? Or should a line be drawn in the past?



Once all of this is put to rest, all that remains is compensation for material loss. In this respect, exchanged land plays a large part but compensation becomes paramount. On that basis, let us find a route albeit a property commission being the more likely solution to forgive the emnities of the past to provide adequate recompense to provide for peoples material loss and to find a way forward.

wynyardman



Joined: 15/12/2007
Posts: 4580

Message Posted:
12/03/2009 22:00

If this attempt at reconciliation fails, the G.C's will have drunk at the last chance saloon. There will be no going back. The G.C.'s will forever have agreed to the partitioning of the island of Cyprus. The international community, having tried, will recognise TRNC as an independent state and as part of Turkey will move on. Surely, now is the time for us all to think long and hard at the possible consequences of our actions.



As always, my view is GIVE PEACE A CHANCE.



My view, thats all.



Wyn

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 01:27

Rose,



Any chance of an answer to msg 48 as requested ?











POST EDITED

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 13:42

Joseph, re 49/50,

I made 2 posts, presenting a standard ethical arguement intended to point out to firestarter that there is another point of view. in my third post I made it absolutely clear that this was my motivation for posting and also said "As a matter of fact, I think that Joseph - with all due respect - is slightly 'over the top' when it comes to prostletizing. My exposure to multiple religions over the years has led me to believe that although followers of each all think that they are the 'one and only true religion', in fact, none of them are. However, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and we shouldn't ctiticise or berate anyone who's belief doesn't happen to agree with our own." You appeared to not 'get the point', so I later put it into simpler, clearer language, which you have (partially) quoted. You didn't say what followed, which was: - contd...

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 13:43

"You are entitled to your beliefs, but I doubt that you will change anyone else's belief system very much by harping on about it - people will just get sick of reading it, and skip your posts!"

Now, I don't quite know what I said that might have made you trust and believe in me, or indeed what happened to alter that, but I never asked for either, nor did I have any intention to fool you - I am simply a person putting his point of view.

For the record, I have no connection whatsoever with Macha, although I have had 'debates' with him, on and off various boards, in his various 'alter egos'.

People know exactly who I am, and if you doubt it, you can ring me on (009) 0533 830 1835.

My details are shown in my profile.

Best regards,

Keith.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 13:47

hi tiggy

sorry i have been away from the p.c doing other things.

i think everyone has the right to their own beliefs and oppinions, but i do feel that until you have met someone it is hard to judge them.

it is far too easy to judge someone on their posts and when you actually meet that person they are very different.

thats all i am trying to say.

don't judge people you have never met.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 17:21

joseph: "Macha ... is it true... that you have hidden/used various names, because, if so, this smacks of deceit and leaves all the good points you have made rather undermined and maybe explains why Tiggy is so angry with you?"



Do you use the same password for everything in your life? Let me enlighten you. Anyone who has been on the TRNC forums for a few years as a regular knows who I am and several have met me. People us different nicknames on different BBs. Sometimes I have and sometimes I haven't.



I'm not afraid of putting across my views on the Cyprus issue and as a result have had my log-ins blocked (democracy, Turkish style). But because I can't be silenced I just come back with a new name - and don't hide who I am. EricSeans and Pte Pike are my best-known ones. So I don't know what you're on about re "deceit"



more...

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 17:26

firestarter - well said. You can't judge people on an internet forum.



Some users on here are probably the complete opposite of what they claim to be. You can only judge a person by meeting and talking with them.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 17:27

"Commited" Christians oftenturn out to be prejudiced, spiteful, petty, judgemental and naive. Anyone who beleives a newborn baby is covered in "original sin" because some old fool in a stupid hat says so gets no respect or credibility from me.



As for another person you mentioned earlier, night-shift workers can suffer many health problems, but it's never a good idea to spend a 12-hour shift on the internet with only a bottle for company.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 17:30

consumption of alcohol may cause you to thay shings like thish.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 17:37

No 1, - msg 60 -

Perhaps spending 2 weeks in a caravan with them might give a more accurate picture!

Keith.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 17:42

I'm going to decline that one Keith. I've only ever stayed in a caravan once, for one night only. 1967, Hastings. Went down there on a friday night with the lads on scooters and got lucky with a couple of..........oooops, forgot I was on the internet.



Another time Keith )

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:02

keithcaley: "Perhaps spending 2 weeks in a caravan with them might give a more accurate picture!"



Spending two hours stuck behind one is enough for me. RPG anyone?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:03

KC



Re “my exposure to multiple religions etc”

Read my replies… and please like others stop turning them into a debate about religion. I defended ALL faiths because ALL faiths share the same repulsion to abortion. Again and again I have/will refuse to be drawn into such debate. Read my tags... I tried to keep my remarks within the framework of natural moral law.



Re I think Joseph is slightly over the top… but not those attacking a pro life stance?

Again read your own post… You… not I… asked four questions all of which remained unanswered … I simply put them again, and you berate me … not the point at issue?



Playing devils advocate is fine but you cannot enter a debate then withdraw claiming others are referring to remarks you have contributed.



Re I have had debates with Macha… various alter egos etc

Please point out to me where you have berated anyone similarly for banging on?...



cont

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:05

Re Macha

For my own part when it comes to land issues and various debates etc I have never posted other than to ask questions. I like to read all answers given by Macha, Erolz,Mmmm and Clarets etc because I find these guys far more expert in the intricacies of the debate than myself. Seems to me they all really know their stuff, debate the issue from their point of view to allow us to weigh the debate itself. I have been subjected to a few tongue in cheek remarks by Macha but have accepted them as such and he has never as far as I know aimed personal remarks at me. Others claim differently



I happen to think some of Macha’s posts are very thought provoking but as I read through such debate, again and again, the issue of credibility arises from those more experienced in the land issues than myself. You allude to it.



Finally, having explained our views, I am more than happy to accept you at your word, hope we can remain as friends and leave it at that



Regards Joseph

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 18:46

Macha...



The above remarks simply add weight to the very points made by Erolz in your ongoing debate with him and yet again give his arguments weight.



In such debates Erolz draws people to his point of view, because to my knowledge he has never descended into making such silly, snide or off the cuff remarks but tackles tough questions head on; which is presumably the reason he has "won" the admiration of the majority of people to his view, where you struggle to do so.



To use an old fashioned phrase… he wins people over.



But then maybe that’s just me?



Regards Joseph

berkeh2001


Joined: 28/02/2009
Posts: 455

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 20:16

Edited by AJ

Posting out of context with the thread.

keithcaley



Joined: 13/06/2008
Posts: 2521

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 21:07

Joseph msg 66,

I try to listen to both sides of debates, and to weigh up fairly the pro's and con's. In the interest of balance, I posted the 'ethical questions' & provided the answers, - they were rhetorical, in that surely no-one would intentionally claim to have the intention to kill Beethoven, Christ etc. - so I did NOT expect anyone to take them literally, and did NOT expect a literal reply.

It appeared to me, at the time that I posted my remarks, that you were not interested in listening to the opposing arguements, that you had a closed mind, and that your views were based on religious dogma, rather than on a more general regard for Humanity.

My remarks re. Macha were because you seemed to be implying that there was some connection between us, and I wished to refute that - not that I disagree with every single thing he says.

I had no intention of causing you distress, and I apologise if I have done so. You do, of course have every right to express your views.

Regards,

Keit

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:02

KC



To me there is nothing more important to Humanity than humanity itself vis a vis its children. Whatever faith I espouse... moral law would always guide me.

Again please... I am talking objectively, ie the culture per se. I do therefore try to argue logically, ie if we start at such a point where do we finish?



I agree re Macha, I think and have always said his points are very thought provoking but sometimes his "one liners" aren't thought through... like his post above...Anyone who believes a newborn baby is covered in "original sin" because some old fool in a stupid hat says so gets no respect or credibility from me... but that describes the majority of GCs in the south who are Christian Orthodox?



Though I might agree about the hat part Hence why I would never debate the different religions etc... faith maybe... religion no... because it is subjective.



I take your apology as it is meant, honestly... and offer the same.



Regards Joseph

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:08

Dear Berkeh2001 re msg 69



Don't think this is the appropriate place or thread.. let the main contributors to this thread carry on and can we keep our respective egos / viewpoints out of it ?



Take your beef up with a moderator

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:22

joseph,



Mostly I simply don't have the time to knock out 1500 words in multiple posts on the one thread as Erolz has. Clearly you're an easy guy to win over. It has to be short and to the point for me - and IMO one-liners make the world a richer place, as long as they aren't too corny. But you seem quite analytical and keen to get the measure of me, so I'd like to know what you think of a longer piece on Cyprus I did a few years back. Any bias there? If so, to whom? There's a whole lot more that isn't online.



http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_19990718/ai_n13940629

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:31

Good article Campbell.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:32

Rose,....sorry I mean Sarah.



I know all about judging people and meeting them. Erolz has asked for an audience with your mate and he has ducked the issue. Just like you are with avoiding answering the question I put to you.



Mr Drut , Love the gag about the shift worker.......if only.



All good thing's come to those who wait...hic!

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:47

Doyen Msg 74,



Thanks! I'm available for special orders as well.

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:54

Macha,



Can't now... but I promise I will read it over the weekend.

But surely you agree that chucking out one liners defeats the object.



I'm analytical on "heavy" tags because I think the Cyprus question deserves it, so it is the tag/post I scrutinise, especially, as I have said above, between you Mmmm, Erolz, Clarets and others you guys approach such issues in a detail that I cannot. So I read them without putting in my two bobs worth and consider what is said.



I believe they are fundamentally very emotive subjects that call up many past and present issues which in themselves are very intricate and far reaching.



I can only start with the status quo...



Hope this helps.



Regards Joseph

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
13/03/2009 23:55

As for another person you mentioned earlier, night-shift workers can suffer many health problems, but it's never a good idea to spend a 12-hour shift on the internet with only a bottle for company.





Unlike you, you are able to play with children.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 00:20

Hey Patrick, re msg 78



Did you start on the sauce early to celebrate the weekend or St Paddy's Day? ;)







It might help if you gave us a clue with a name and ref to the msgs to whom you are responding ... :(

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 00:32

Hello mmmmmm, alas no sauce for several weeks mate. I view everyday as being St Paddy's day!



Give you a clue......well his remarks are a little up the thread above.....not to far. I made a slight error, meant to put in the word "your" in the last paragraph.



Have a good weekend and keep up the good work with your unbiased contributions to the forum!



Cheers.

Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 00:57

Its a good job Ive had 3 bottles of Rioja tonight and fed my red nose or I might have thought the article was written with bias ?



Either the writer has changed his opinions on the North or I have been reading somthing else for the last 6 months.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 01:03

Macha msg 73



Thank you for finally posting a referance to something you have written proffessionaly on Cyprus



"Any bias there? If so, to whom?"



The article is generally balanced but does imo show some bias towards the TC 'side'.



As far as accuracy the only part I would really question is the assertion



"The Turkish Cypriots are vastly outnumbered by Anatolian settlers occupying abandoned Greek Cypriot properties, and 35,000 Turkish troops."



This sentance would be clearer imo if it said 'combined with 35k Turkish Troops' - it could be read as both the settlers outnumber TC and seperately Turkish Troops outnumber them as well. Even when you know that you mean I question the accuracy of the use of 'vastly'.



Overal fairly balanced, leaning slightly to TC side. Little light on any real insight for me but then thats to expected in such an article given its length and whom it was written for.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 01:20

Dear ErolZ re msg 82



OK, so taking the TR troops out of it, and regarding TR settlers as Turks - even if granted " TRNC" "citizenship" - what is wrong with saying the REAL TCs are now vastly outnumbered - it is true... as most TCs will tell you - some quietly, some don't mind and some with not a little frustration..



It was and is a deliberate act.

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 01:25

Mark

are you up for another round of ethnic cleansing then ? because that what it sounds to me.

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 01:33

MM msg 83



The FACT is MM that there just is not enough hard credible evidence to say that TC are vastly outnumbered by Turkish settlers. For a start any such discussion would have to lay out the definaitions. Are Turkish mainland students studying in the TRNC 'Turkish Settlers'. Mainlanders in the North without citizenship working on temporary visa ? Is a Turkish mainlander married to a TC a settler ? Are the children of such couples settlers ? Without laying out such defnitions then you headline claims to me are meaningless.



I also have to take excpetion to the statement that 'most TC will tell you....'. You simply can not say this and expect to have any credibility with me. Yes I know of TC that are convinced that TC are outnumbered but I also know of others that are not convinced - most especially when clear definitions are laid out. I have no way of knowing what 'most' think any more than you do.



What I do know is that if those with rights to citizenship within



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 01:38

the TRNC did support a reality that TC were outnumbered by settlers, there are certain things I would expect to see as a manifest reuslt of this reality. I would expect to see settlers outnumber TC in parlimaent and government and in key posts like prime minsiter and president. I do not see this. I would also have expected to see the Annan Plan , that limited the number of settlers in the North to 35,000, to have been defeated. I did not see this.



"It was and is a deliberate act."



I agree and accept that PART of the reason settlers were introduced ot the North post 74 in such large numbers was a political objective of altering demographics within both the North and CYprus as a whole. However what annopys and frustrates me is the idea that this was the ONLY reason settlers were introduced in such large numbers. The reality is that post 74 the North was shattered , physicaly and economically - with 80%ish of the Norths TC population displaced and without work or means



[cont]

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 01:42

of supporting themseleves and their familes. PART of the reason for bringing in Turkish mainlanders to the north post 74 was the practicality of trying to rebuild what was left of the north post 74 and create some semblance of a funstioning economy. There were huge swathes of agricultural land in the north post 74 that TC had neither the ability and skills or desire to bring into economic activity to give one example.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 02:01

Dear ErolZ re 85-7



EXACTLY, the response I KNEW you would come back with.. You offer "excuses" as to why the figures can't be accurate... that is how "it" was intended by the "authorities" ! Hard to "prove".. However, TCs KNOW.. and so, really do you..



Many TCs look down on the Anatolian settlers and will tell you that perhaps when they celebrated the TR "peace movement" they should have been careful what they wished for.. They STILL don't run their own affairs..



If there had been no "final solution", no ethnic cleansing - there would have been no need to "repopulate"..



Don't get me wrong, I know many TCs left in the fifties, sixties and early seventies - BEFORE TR "arrived" - due to the actions of GCs - the Church even gave money to buy out TCs at above market rates - but TCs carried on leaving..AFTER TR arrived,.



Just because we have no accurate figures doesn't make my/ Macha's / the articles assertion that TCs are outnumbered any less true.. !

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 02:14

MM msg 88



(please do not call me dear)



I do not offer excuses - I state the reality that accurate figures are not avialable.



I notice as ever you do not address the point I made. IF as you assert settlers VASTLY outnumber TC, then why in your view do they not dominate in TRNC parliament or government? How do you explain that settlers that VASTLY outnumber TC voted FOR and agreement that would have limited the number of settlers allowed to remain in the North as Cypriot citizens to 35,000 ?



"Just because we have no accurate figures doesn't make my/ Macha's / the articles assertion that TCs are outnumbered any less true.. !"



It makes them what they are. Opinion passed off as fact and unable to be supported as facts by credible evidence.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 15:16

erolz: "The article is generally balanced but does imo show some bias towards the TC 'side'."



Given that we seem to enjoying a period of "detente", does the fact that overall you feel my news feature was slanted towards the TC side lead you to any conclusions about me as a person and my own views?

erolz


Joined: 17/11/2008
Posts: 3456

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 15:27

Macha msg 90



It goes some way to balancing the perceived impression I have of you from your years of posting on forums like this.

Macha


Joined: 18/01/2009
Posts: 650

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 15:30

Thanks for that. ;)

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 16:22

Macha



Your article does you credit.

Your new openness does you credit.



I am actually going to go back to your article and re read it because when I find such as this I like think it over and more importantly think it through.

Seems to me the more info we have.. presuming a reader wants a grasp of the Cyprus problem... the better you are to make your own judgements.



I even think it could be the common/starting ground for you and Erolz to have that friendly beer together... just don't ask me to act as referee

as both you and Mmm have all pointed out... its a minefield, a moral maze.



Regards Joseph

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 16:48

Alas Joseph,



that friendly beer will not happen as "the thing" only drinks with his own side.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 16:56

tiggy

it is not my place to disclose other members names or identitys on this or any other forum.

i would hope that people i have met would give me the same respect as i give them.

sorry iwasn't up to speed with a reply as i said before i have been away from the pc.

Tiggy


Joined: 25/07/2007
Posts: 1994

Message Posted:
14/03/2009 17:01

Thanks Sarah,



thought that might be the case.



Have a good weekend.