Cyprus Turkish Airlines take on British Civil Aviation

AlsancakJack



Joined: 14/08/2008
Posts: 5762

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 13:19

FAMAGUSTA GAZETTE 09.APR.09

BRT Turkish Cypriot television has broadcast the following news item:



“'The Minister of Public Works and Communications' Salih Usar has announced that a hearing at the English High Court into the case filed by Cyprus Turkish Airlines against the British Civil Aviation will be heard later this month.



Commenting on the issue to the BRT during a trip to Kayseri, Turkey, the 'Minister' said that the efforts to establish direct flights to and from the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" were continuing.



He said that, within that framework, a case filed by CTA against the British Civil Aviation authority will be heard at the English High Court later this month.



Reminding that the two leaders in Cyprus were currently conducting negotiations aimed at reaching a political settlement, 'Minister' Usar said that once a solution is found, direct flights will start, resulting in a serious competitive environment.”

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:07

Thanks AJ...and about time too...

petez


Joined: 04/12/2008
Posts: 560

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:21

Interesting.. thanks for the update!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:25

AJ



But only after a cyprus solution is found......

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:25

thanks aj

i thought this hearing was in febuary? or was supposed to be.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:33

Juliet,



Let's see what is said at the hearing, you may be suprised, even the British economy needs all the cash it can get no matter how small the revenue, airport taxes etc are a tidy sum, you may see direct flights sooner than you think.

hattikins


Joined: 17/02/2008
Posts: 2793

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:34

I thought direct flights were one of the things promised after TC,s voted to accept the Annan plan.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:48

my feelings are wouldn't it be great.

i just don't believe they can take on the civil aviation people and win, especially in the uk.

i hope i'm wrong, but some how i don't think so!

juliet


Joined: 11/01/2009
Posts: 612

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 14:58

its not the UK who decide about direct flights its the international civil aviation that make the rules. hopefully after a solution people will be free to use any airport of there choice on the island.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 15:04

for me i always fly from ercan, nothing to do with politics just that it is closer.

lots go for the larnaca choice because they fly to more regional airports, but for me any london airport is ok.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 15:07

Juliet,



The Civil Aviation Authority decide which flights are made from the uk, believe me I have worked within the IATA and CAA in the past.



One hurdle at a time.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 15:34

at the uk airport they still book you on the flight to ercan, but via turkey.

to me its more an enviromental issue all those take offs and landings which is not very green considering we get extra taxes on flying, and the pollution could be cut with direct flights.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 15:37

Direct flights we have! You're talking non-stop flights, big difference!



Richard

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 15:40

fire starter,



correct and some of the flights have a one hour tarmac standing period in Turkey, you don't get off the plane, sort of direct flight.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 16:05

Funnily enough if there's a huge delay in either direction the tarmac stop can only be a matter minutes omitting passport control on board in order to catch up time. The issue is the extra cost of fuel usage on descending and take off, but do you think prices would come down on non-stop flights? I think not!



Richard

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 16:16

The implimentation of direct flights would be of interest to several airlines causing a competetive market, to whit competing for the bums on seats would of course have a direct implication on ticket prices, pretty basic when you think about it.

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 16:40

Even if under the present situation if direct flights were permitted who would fly to Ercan? Most carriers already fly to Larnaca/Paphos what incentives would there be for them to change? Aircraft carriers are not going to fly to Ercan as well as or instead of Larnaca/Paphos.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 16:43

We would be talking of not just passengers but air freight too, believe me there is money to be made in direct flight operations to Ercan.

Lilli



Joined: 21/07/2008
Posts: 13081

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 17:29

Do you really think turkey will give up the landing charges. There is money to be made but sadly not here xxxx

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 17:42

Its the International Air Transport Authority they should be suing if they want direct flights to Ercan not the CAA.It might buck up CTA if they suddenly find they have some serious competion.Maybe some EUflights might be interested but the majority of UKoperators seem quite content with their southern operations.I think if they thought there was enough money to be made going to the north they would have been on the bandwagon before now..

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 17:54

Coachie the CAA decide what flights leave UK airports one hurdle at a time, first the take the CAA to task and then IATA.

No1Doyen


Joined: 04/07/2008
Posts: 16617

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 17:55

We'll have direct flights by the end of the year.......

deecyprus4


Joined: 27/07/2008
Posts: 3452

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 17:56

Brinsley we do not have direct flights, the flight is via somewhere in Turkey becos Ercan is not recognised.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 18:36

Msg 20, yep the expected response from Pikey just landed

elko2



Joined: 24/07/2007
Posts: 4400

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 20:48

The Courts will have to examine the Chicago Convention. I am hopeful they will rule that it is not against the Convention to have non-stop flights. Let us wait and see, one step at a time.

ismet

Coachie



Joined: 29/07/2008
Posts: 2135

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 21:06

Wellif they are successful,great,could lead to cheaper flights because they will have some realcompetition..

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 21:44

Coachie



how will flights prices be cheaper? Which airline would fly to Ercan and not compromise their flights to LCA/PFO or who currenlty does not fly there?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 22:11

Virgin awhile ago in serious talks with the Government wanting a piece of the action when NON-STOP flights materialise. Branson wanting some of the hotel/pleasure market no doubt.



Richard

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
09/04/2009 22:15

Thats an easy one do you know how many aircraft are available to charter for anyone who get get a cargo or a pax list together.

Many and they will fly anywhere. My profession is Logistics and I specialise in air transport into Hazardous and remote locations.

IATA and CAA approved to ship hazardous materials too, and a Chartered Member of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and transport.

Yes there would be a competitive market to Ercan.

Carbotec


Joined: 28/02/2009
Posts: 98

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 00:01

Well said ismet, thats why CTA have started the action because there is nothing in the chicargo convention that says that CTA cannot fly direct to the UK or anywhere else for that matter.



carbotec

phylray



Joined: 21/09/2007
Posts: 1727

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 00:21

I am flying with B.A from Glasgow direct to Istanbul, 3 day stopover

with friend, then Turkish Airlines to Ercan, all very good times, at

a cost of £280. I think it is good value & I will enjoy every minute of it.

I hope in future that we will see more economical flights (greenwise also)

direct from other than London.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 15:57

Reminds me about one trip last year with CTA arriving above London an hour before schedule but had to stack for an hour and a half before landing, arriving late once again! The ironic thing was on that precise day the World Leaders were having a knees up somewhere in the Southern Hemisphere about global warming and emissions and how to cut them back! Great, we where just circling London burning up and emitting goodness knows how many carbon particles contributing to the case of the Eco-fascists!



Richard

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 18:24

Richard



Have you any evidence to back up your comment re Virgin talking to the government?



Or is it just another hearsay rumour much like the Roman Abromovich and countless other which have been circulated over the years?

doddies


Joined: 16/02/2009
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 18:38

Stubs Msg 27

Surely CTA, Turkish and Pegasus would be cheaper for saving of fuel, flying direct as opposed to a dog leg route via Turkey and no landing fees in Turkey.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 18:42

Stubs



I'm going back some years now around the time the boarder opened up.



Richard

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 18:51

Richard



Was there any evidence to credibable link for this claim?

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 18:57

Last time we flew from Manchester to Ercan, flight was about 11pm at night and we were due the usual hour stopover in Dalaman.

Once we had baorded; the pilot announced as no one was disembarking at Dalaman we would fly straight on to Ercan, which we did.



Ended up arriving two hours earlier than scheduled



Has this happened to any one else?



Regards Joseph

Stubs


Joined: 01/07/2008
Posts: 641

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 18:57

Doddies



Environmentally it does not make much sense either. If planes no longer landed in Turkey then these routes would also need to be serviced so now instead of one flight you have 2 flights.



However commercially there is not enough passengers flying from the UK and staying on the plane flying to Ercan. Many passengers use the flights to fly to Turkey and also the routes are very popular from Cyprus to Turkey and vice versa.



Weigh up the revenue streams which would be induced from flights non-stop to Ercan to/from the UK as well as the revenue streams from the flights from Turkey to Ercan and vice versa.

Aysesdaddy



Joined: 21/03/2009
Posts: 392

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 20:16

I have been going to the TRNC for over twentyfive years from London and manchester aiiways to Ercan it would be the best thing that could happen and then cta may all so inprove but i must say thay are getting there

newscoop


Joined: 23/12/2007
Posts: 2197

Message Posted:
10/04/2009 20:32

If direct flights were to happen then CTA would be screwed.



In order to maintain their Turkish routes they would have to lease more aircraft.



The Turkish stops make up a large part of their "profitability"



Witness all the golfers who get off at Antalya, thats just one example.

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 08:44

do planes ever refuel here??

i have only ever seen the refuelling in turkey does ercan have the facility?

is fuel cheaper in turkey??

pinkchilli


Joined: 30/11/2008
Posts: 689

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 09:14

Suppose we have non-stop flights.



Suppose we have lots more visitors.



Now, all these visitors would be looking for somewhere to eat and drink.



Now, that favourite place of yours, instead of being half-empty and giving you good service are now fully-booked every night, serving mainly tourists, i.e. "passing trade".



Who thinks they will NOT increase their prices? This will apply to every sector.



I'm not saying it's wrong, I'm not saying it wouldn't be better for the TRNC, but remember, things may change!



By the way, will the authorities see any of this money and improve the lives of the ordinary TC's?

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 11:10

You're doing my head in!



Fly to NZ, plane touches down twice on the way to destination to refuel, arrives Auckland! That is a DIRECT flight

Fly to NZ in latest aircraft with huge fuel capacity, lands Auckland without stopping to re-fuel! That is a NON-STOP flight.



CLEAR AS MUD?



Richard

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 12:41

34 & 40 Turkey not just from Ercan is profitable for all the airlines you only have seat avai;lability problems at peak times Easter etc.



43 Yes it does everyones heads in:

Direct - means not changing planes (unless of course you choose to)

Indirect - would normaly involve a change of aircraft and maybe a stopover

Non Stop - is dierect with no touchdowns and no land fueling on the journey

doddies


Joined: 16/02/2009
Posts: 102

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 15:20

Joseph Msg 37

Yes, i have flown non-stop Stansted-Ercan night flight twice. Family also night flight non-stop. Don`t tell anyone.....ssshhhhhhs!

joseph


Joined: 17/04/2008
Posts: 709

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 16:04

Hi doddies... phew... for a minute there I thought I had been dreaming



I'm on a late evening flight in June so will be interesting to see how the flight goes?



Re fuel costs... I think I am right in saying there is an international agreement that no country taxes aviation fuel for obvious reasons, though FlashG muted this a couple of years ago. Thankfully it died in his sleep.



Then again did he side step the issue and hike the "ticket" tax instead?



Regards Joseph

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 16:23

So What is the current UK govt line on this ? :



http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/country-profiles/europe/cyprus/



"Why can't I fly direct to the northern part of Cyprus?

It is not possible to fly directly from the UK to the northern part of Cyprus. Under the terms of the International Convention on Civil Aviation of 1944 (Chicago Convention), flights can only operate legally to the international airports designated by the Republic of Cyprus. There are no such airports in the northern part of Cyprus. Under these circumstances, the UK Government has decided that the approval of direct flights by any airline from the UK to the northern part of Cyprus would be incompatible with the UK's international obligations under the Chicago Convention, and with UK domestic legal obligations."



So it is the RoC that decide what is legally an international airport...

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 21:41

well said m

but ercan is closer for me.

TheSaints



Joined: 28/01/2009
Posts: 1369

Message Posted:
11/04/2009 21:48

Yep, and now that both sides at the talks are starting to agree on some matters and jointly implementing some small but significant things it may even get as far as Direct Flights to Ercan in the not too distant future.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
12/04/2009 22:41

re msg 49



..not unless TCs agree to calling it Tymbou or Nicosia International ;)

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 08:02

it would be good if the refurbed the old airport, then it would be even closer.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 09:03

Hi FS



re msg 51



They can't open Nicosia Int'l - as I understand it - there has been building done that would exclude it being allowed to be used as an airport.

handsome


Joined: 23/02/2009
Posts: 2

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 10:08

i have been hearing direct flights next year for 15 years

flightholiday


Joined: 19/07/2007
Posts: 3217

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 11:01

msg 52 - Can't the authorities knock down the buildings? They would anywhere else in the world.



Bad humour apart - I think we would agree that there are other problems too.



Direct flights are not likely for a long while yet. I wonder what would happen if the flights into Larnaca had to go via Greece all the time.

Cyprusquest


Joined: 09/12/2008
Posts: 428

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 11:36

Ms 54 " I wonder what would happen if the flights into Larnaca had to go via Greece all the time."



Nice thought, worth another thread?



I bet them down South would be none too happy. Maybe that is what Embargo should be working on; then we could have a typical British "level playing field". Let the best man win and all that - what ho!

TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 12:54

Hi mmmmmmmm,



I'm sure the TC's would love to see Ercan renamed Nicosia Intl. Airport. Especially if it remained in "their" half of the island and under their control!!

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 16:23

You should have watched the BBC short documentary/news report not so long ago on Nicosia airport. Terminal hasn't changed since 1974 though the runway in appalling condition which is now only fit for helicopter traffic.



Richard

fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 16:34

i agree i saw the program showing the old airport.

i don't know what has been built close to it though?

nothing suprises me here with regards planning.

mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 16:40

Dear Flightholiday re msg 54



"I wonder what would happen if the flights into Larnaca had to go via Greece all the time. "



Hi!



1/ let's put this in perspective - there's a HECK of a lot of more serious issues for Cypriots !



2/ The GCs have to fly much longer distances - example LCA- Moscow -an extra 500 miles - because TR doesn't let them overfly - in contravention of the Ankara accord TR signed - which said they WOULD allow all EU members free access to airspace and ports - there were no exceptions.



re msg 56

"TRNC" Vaughan



"I'm sure the TC's would love to see Ercan renamed Nicosia Intl. Airport. Especially if it remained in "their" half of the island and under their control!!"



Again - the RoC officially operate the airspace over Cyprus - I'm sure this can all be sorted as part of an overall deal.

Brinsley


Joined: 04/04/2009
Posts: 6858

Message Posted:
13/04/2009 17:04

The airport is a red herring, Varosha a far better prize for the Greeks but they're not interested! My solution is simple, expensive but decisive than all the procrastinating, rhetoric, b**l***t at present.



DNA the whole population and adhere to the results of who is who and from where, then negotiate from there. That would open Pandora's box if not a few cans of worms!



Richard