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Lucy09


Joined: 03/08/2009
Posts: 5

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 13:51

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Message 1 of 62 in Discussion

I am aware that there is already plenty of threads on this topic, however i have only now became interested in this case for educational purposes. I am finding it difficult to get my head around it all!!



So right now the ECJ have ruled against them and it is to be reverted back to the Court of Appeal in the UK where it will be decided whether they shall implement this?or has this happened??And then the possibilty of an appeal to the House of Lords Yes?

So if they judgement is implemented,what does this really mean?Can it be enforced against their property to the point that they will actually hve to give it over in light TRNC not veing in the EU?or will the plaintiffs sue in the UK for their compo and seize the orams assets?if this the route they will take, then what hppens to the Lapta propety?



I would be grateful to anyone who could help me on this. i have read through plenty on this and still struggling.

Thanks



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:05

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Message 2 of 62 in Discussion

Hi Lucy,



I expect the reason you struggle is that there are so many "interpretations"..



Basically this is as a result of a civil action taken in the "rump" RoC against a British couple who built a house on what is still - legally - as far as the UN/ EU / ECHR regard as the plaintiffs land.



The plaintiff had sought to have the judgement enforced in the court of Eng and Wales, and the first UK Judge interpreted Protocol 10 of the Green Line Regulations - appertaining to Cyprus ( as a whole) joining the EU and the "acquis" being suspended north of the Green Line - pending a solution IMHO incorrectly.



When the Court of Eng / Wales asked for a ruling from the ECJ - they got a purely legalistic response.. The Judgement IS enforceable. So YES, the Plaintiff could ask for assets to be seized. The amount of damages will be relatively small. but the LEGAL FEES are HUGE.



*I* think the UK govt IS meddling in that they hope a political soln will be agreed..



TRNCVaughan


Joined: 27/04/2008
Posts: 4578

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:07

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Message 3 of 62 in Discussion

Hi mmmmmmmmmmm,



Please clarify your last line.



fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:16

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Message 4 of 62 in Discussion

i don't see the british goverment meddling, i see them not wanting to rule and passing the buck to the ecj.



Lucy09


Joined: 03/08/2009
Posts: 5

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:17

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Message 5 of 62 in Discussion

Legally enforceable yes but realistically how easy is it actually enforceable?Im still struggling to understand how the judgement of an EU court can be applied to land in TRNC?



So let me get this straight in my head...i know im probably confusing everyone..sorry!!Can the plaintiff demolish the villa and reclaim it AND claim damages or seize their assets in the UK?



I understand that the Orams house in the UK is probably more under threat than their lapta home?So this mean that potentially the Lapta home is safe...and if so what happens from there??



Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:18

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Message 6 of 62 in Discussion

The ECJ decision as to the enforcement of a civil court judgement of one EU state being valid in another EU state obviously applies EU wide. It is not simply a matter of North v South Cyprus politics. You could sue someone in say a German civil court, get judgement and then if the defendant doesn't pay up, go after their assets, say in Italy.



Although I agree with mmmm above, I don't believe the UK government either can or will 'meddle' in this case. They would open themselves up to massive criticism with the UK judiciary and a civil claim against them.



I think there is very little doubt that the High Court will accept the ECJ ruling. They can't ask for the ECJ ruling & then go against it. As for an appeal to the H of Lords, there would be no grounds.



The compensation & legal fees could be enforced against the Orams UK assets i.e. their home. That was the point (other than political) of bringing the case in the UK courts. Their NC villa not be touched but compensation contin



Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:22

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Message 7 of 62 in Discussion

Their Lapta home is 'safe' as it is in the TRNC and no one (unless the TRNC government/courts decide otherwise) can or will make them demolish it. The trouble is though that the claimant Mr Apostilides will continue to recover damages against them and can continue to have that enforced through the UK courts. Eventually they would run out of money.



Lucy09


Joined: 03/08/2009
Posts: 5

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:32

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Message 8 of 62 in Discussion

Thanks everyone...that has really cleared it up for me!!



One last question if this goes ahead againt the Orams which it more than likely will...does this leave the door open for turkish cypriots to claim back land in the south?Or is their title deed situation different??



fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:49

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Message 9 of 62 in Discussion

i think that they can already apply for their property in the south through a commission set up, but it doesn't make it easy for them.

the orams case was started before the commision was opened / put in place.



ilovecyprus


Joined: 08/05/2007
Posts: 2880

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 14:58

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Message 10 of 62 in Discussion

What happens if the Orams comply and they decide to knock down their property in Lapta and also pay back the rent that is owed



Presumably their assets, which includes their property in the UK are safe?



Presumably knocking down their Lapta property is dependent on the TRNC governement agreeing to this?



What if the TRNC government disaprove and do not consent, then the Orams have conformed to the courts wishes but are prevented from doing so? What happens then?



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 15:10

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Message 11 of 62 in Discussion

re "TRNC" msg 3 - "hoping" the Court process will take a long time...? Hoping they won't have the "hot potato"?!



re msg 5

>>Legally enforceable yes but realistically how easy is it actually enforceable?Im still struggling to understand how the judgement of an EU court can be applied to land in TRNC? << The EU Court see the land as in the RoC - but beyond the effective control of the recognised govt..



The Plaintiff has no current means to enforce the demolition - just the damages for loss of use / rent - IF successful - sizing of assets would only occur- if the defendants lose, and can't / won't pay up.



What happens to the Lapitos/ Lapta house depends on any Political settlement.



TCs can apply to the RoC Guardian of TC properties and ask for their place back.. there is a (unfair) prerequisite to be resident in the "free areas" ( what I call the "rump" RoC) for six months. Many TCs have been able to do just this.. GCs had to wait for ECHR rulings against TR.



madturk


Joined: 25/03/2009
Posts: 217

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 20:18

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Message 12 of 62 in Discussion

so if the orams lose this case. then surely every single person who have a disputed title deed ,has to lose

their property as well. not just in cyprus . will the courts force russian people out of their cyprus homes.

will they be forced to sell their houses in moscow, turkish cypriots to leave their houses.

I think not,



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 20:34

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Message 13 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Madturk



If the Orams "lose" who will win.. I doubt Mr Apostolides will get all his costs back..



There won't be a floodgate of civil actions because of the cost factors and now there is a defence, that the RoC Courts might "dismiss".. the IPC, but it would open up the door to go to the ECHR.



As for "Russians" ( I use the " " as many of these Russian speakers aren't Russian nationals .. if they haven't assets in the EU they need only "worry" about being arrested in the "rump" RoC under the recent criminal code ..



wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 20:54

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Message 14 of 62 in Discussion

The bit you've missed is the court of human rights which where this case is bound for unless a political solution overtakes it because of the unfair trial in the Banana Republic of Cyprus

see :-

http://www.cyprus44.com/forums/17955.asp see comment 33 Elco2 and subsequent comments

"The trial was a fixer they didn't stand a chance "(B Dylan The Hurricane")



This is where M comes in and says he thinks that roc courts are wonderful and helped him in his case

sorry M one problem with that argument you were not Turkish



if you were we would be reading about you in the papers instead of here



Paulkay


Joined: 10/11/2007
Posts: 64

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 21:02

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Message 15 of 62 in Discussion

So what would happen if you only rented in the UK and only had a home in N/C.?

As I see it Turkey would not let the GC come over the boarder and take your house or knock it down?



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 21:10

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Message 16 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Wanderer



re msg 14



My point was that I was a Foreigner - a non Cypriot - taking on one of the biggest commercial concerns in the RoC - I was the defendant- and I found the Judge to be fair... I'm WELL aware of the time it can take to get a case to Court in CY



Elko's case is that the Oram's were not given the opportunity/ time for a Defence.. Yet a Judge heard what their "defence" - inverted commas because it involved legitimising a "state" that isn't recognised - particularly by a RoC court - was going to be that they had been issued "Title Deeds" by the "govt". .. that they had bought in good faith..



As we know, the reality is that the RoC land registry show Mr Apostolides is still the owner - so THAT's WHY the ECJ accepted the Judgement can be enforced.. and now it's up to the UK to decide..



wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 21:18

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Message 17 of 62 in Discussion

The point you missed was that the Human rights were ignored they were not given chance to defend themselves and were not treated properly

The uk is not the end of it the human rights court is

Elco2 is right it was a kangaroo court roc know it end of .

The other point that you also miss is that a Turk cannot get justice in the banana republic of Cyprus because of the racial bigotry that is inherent in the orthodox faith against Muslims



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 21:23

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Message 18 of 62 in Discussion

hands up those people who believe that the british courts have the balls to carry this insane



rubbish ,yes rubbish by their great buddies the roc ,or will they just past the buck as per usual.



i believe most of us know the answer .and why an english couple ,why not make an example of



an israeli a russian a german ,because they know these countries governments will tell them where



to go.



long live the kktc.



musin



cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 21:51

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Message 19 of 62 in Discussion

mmmmmm.....can anyone outside the RoC be 100% sure of the accuracy and validity of the records held in the South ?



wanderer


Joined: 05/02/2009
Posts: 1653

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 22:02

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Message 20 of 62 in Discussion

Cronos

Can anyone in the south be sure???



I don,t think so!!!



No proof but with their track history!



I wouldn't



100,000 deeds cant be wrong



Sorry missing



Sorry its a backlog



No sorry its a mistake



We will put it right in law



Well from now on the things will be OK



Forget the first 100,000 mistakes



No sorry cons



Luckily they are only property deeds



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
20/08/2009 22:05

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Message 21 of 62 in Discussion

musin is right most of these other countries would tell the bent roc court to take a running jump



nonetheless I hardly think a legal campaign to recover north cypriot properties wholesale from eu citizens

by legal moves will really happen, unless you are talking about a few cases used for point-scoring



as I have remarked umpteen times without being contradicted,

everything in cyprus ultimately depends on turkey continuing to defend its people on the island

and not the slightest evidence of any shift there then, "eu application" or no



would you believe that a punter on another thread actually said something like he wished

the orams business was over one way or the other "so we know where we stand" (as if)



the best place I know to stand is alongside the brave turkish cypriots, our hosts in their beautiful country



...provided we have decided which side we are actually on, and not immediately obvious in every case



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 00:29

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Message 22 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Wanderer re 17



>>The point you missed was that the Human rights were ignored they were not given chance to defend themselves and were not treated properly <<



I'm not being sarky.. how were their HRs infringed - what will be the defence?



>>The other point that you also miss is that a Turk cannot get justice in the banana republic of Cyprus because of the racial bigotry that is inherent in the orthodox faith against Muslims<<



Hmm I might agree if you meant a Turk - as opposed to a TC - the GCs make that distinction .. As you know many TCs live in the south and never left - some even returned and got their places back.



If a TC is attacked - like the poor TC kid murdered by a Mentally ill person, who should never have been walking the streets - the GC politicians crap themselves about being perceived as racists - especially since joining the EU !



TCs and GCs live in mixed communities some in UN areas "policed " by the UN. Do you read of racial bigotry ?!



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 00:37

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Message 23 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Musin M re 18



Mr Apostolides took the civil action - against the wishes of the govt. ( I know many of you question that, but there you go!) It built up a head of steam in the RoC and "hit the rails" ( for Mr Apostolides) in the UK .. So HOW you figure the UK is biased to the GCs AMAZES me..



The "rump" RoC arrested a Russian speaking couple at the crossing points a couple of years back - but I never did hear what happened after that... Don't be too surprised if the RoC does try to make an "example" of a non EU citizen re it's new Criminal code on dealing in GC owned property.. IF they are going to use the law, *I* think they won't go for an EU citizen..



Cronos re msg 19



Apparently, AJ says there is a case waiting to go before a court re shenanigans at the "rump" RoC LR - so we show know, soon enough..



re msg 20



As I've explained before.. the 100K deeds awaited are mainly new build and effect far more locals than expats.



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 03:54

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Message 24 of 62 in Discussion

re:mark's reply to musin at the top of message 23:



you seem familiar with the origins of the "case" wherever your real sympathies lie

it is believable that apostilides, a government official, sparked the whole bandwagon

on his own initiative, but as usual with these of your posts that somewhat misses the point:

a gc minister recently stated "the objective is to have all property returned"

and although this is unlikely to happen in a month of fridays or indeed ever,

these mp chaps do have an important constituency to pander to, even if in words only



the whole trip about underscoring technical "ownership" is to keep alive at head height

something that doesn't really exist on the ground at floor level



and in the context of the original thread to keep alive an imagined certainty

even though ozdil nami does of course include the all-important "if" word in his reported comments

because like many aspects of life, ultimate certainty is a far rarer commodity than we'd hope for



CyprusChill


Joined: 08/05/2009
Posts: 666

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 04:26

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Message 25 of 62 in Discussion

Exchange Land.

Agreed compromise at a time of greed, hunger and unjustified enforcement.



Still to this day, a shotgun will resolve any dispute.



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 12:09

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Message 26 of 62 in Discussion

...and I'd like to see who are still wobbly on the cyprus dispute

hands up all those "who cannot decide which side they are on"



fire starter


Joined: 19/06/2008
Posts: 3401

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 13:07

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Message 27 of 62 in Discussion

andre,

can i ask why anyone needs to take sides?

it is for the cypriots to decide the future of their country.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 13:28

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Message 28 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Andre_514



It is a legal case- why the inverted commas?



Many TCs owe their livelihoods to working as civil servants.. I don't know.. does that make them liable to "conform"..it certainly wouldn't in the case of a GC who wanted to do things his way.. From his point of view he had seen 30 plus years with no closer likelihood of his being able to use his property.



Mr Apostolides action could still backfire .. I believe he will not recover his property and what he wins will not cover his legal costs which are rarely fully recovered.



As to "taking sides" I'd ideally like those who WANT to live / work where they like on the island to be able to do that.. I appreciate that is unrealistic.. and think an Annan like soln - for now is a start - a compromise.



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
21/08/2009 23:26

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Message 29 of 62 in Discussion

mark,



with reference to wobbling on the cyprus "dispute" and as regards being on side,

I was thinking of the intuitive member who blithely assumes the gc's only wanted

a pocketful of cash compensation all along when they've never really asked for it!

"our" home owner would settle for a payout, but "they" want the whole shebang



I am disappointed by people who were very content to buy a property in the trnc

yet are too feeble or confused to speak up for their host country in its hour of need



you are worldly about some possible snags and pitfalls that "may" affect mr a's result



but it is disingenuous to focus on the much-discussed "legal case" (it's far more than that)

and the many questions it raises as only being about er... where you can live or work



for the greek cypriots it is a potent symbol of getting back what they once foolishly threw away

but for cypriot turks it is more to do with freedom from a knock on their door by the death squad



do I exaggerate?



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
23/08/2009 13:42

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Message 30 of 62 in Discussion

firestarter msg 27,



ye...ess it's for cypriots to decide their future



although they seem to have put that question to bed some considerable time ago!

but the "sides" referred to above means which lot you'd support

(if any at all, but then why waste time in posting on the forum, lost kittens aside?)



I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that the wobbly brigade

secretely hope for a reunification deal because they imagine it would help them out



here's a quiz:

aside from the locals, whom may have a certain influence on the chances of a deal?

there is only one "right" answer!



the international community

turkey

a diverse collection of wobbly expats

the french president

mark 6m

a ragbag of bent eurojudges



WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/08/2009 22:57

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Message 31 of 62 in Discussion

msg 23 mmm.

I find it very hard to accept that the ROC administration have not been supportive of Mt Appostolides's litligation. What motive would support such a stance?



My own view is mixed. The UK COA may find in favour of the Orams based upon a conflict upon public interest.

This they can indeed do.

The COA may follow the ruling of the ECJ and find in favour of Mr. A.

Costs will most certainly be asked for. In view of the size and clear political sensitivity of the case. I think that costs will be denied.

Mr Appostolides, if he wins will walk away with punitive damages of less than 15k. Hardly an amount to cause a seizure of assets.

What is rather more worrying is that an EU citizen breaking any ROC criminal law could find themselves up for extradition to the ROC for trial before an ROC court. The Orams case is clear evidence of the bilighted view of the ROC against anything and anyone linked positively to the TRNC.



WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
23/08/2009 22:58

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Message 32 of 62 in Discussion

cont....

It really is time for the World and its politicall leaders and powers to remove the blinkers and attend to the real Human rights issues that blight the people of Northern Cyprus.



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
23/08/2009 23:14

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Message 33 of 62 in Discussion

re 29



YES...



re 31 Waz,

Warren, I have explained this to you before - why the RoC didn't / don't REALLY want such cases - I see no point in repeating myself.

As the case is CIVIL - not Criminal - how would the Orams face extradition?

Lastly, Ismet felt the same as you re Public Policy when this case "kicked off".. I warned him that it was different this time, and say the same to you ..



>>It really is time for the World and its politicall leaders and powers to remove the blinkers and attend to the real Human rights issues that blight the people of Northern Cyprus.<<



Sorry, Waz.. but I THINK you'll find they ( most "TRNC" "citizens" ) don't worry too much about the plight of ex-pat EU citizens, and don't feel too worried about HR issues.. may be they think the current "status quo" is sustainable..

This case has merely highlighted the CY problem .



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
23/08/2009 23:46

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Message 34 of 62 in Discussion

6mms

are you a tc living in the kktc or are you irish living in ireland,sorry to disappoint you ,but



you know very little about the tcs,if indeed you know anything at all.



you state to waz and let me quote you (BUT I THINK THEY most trnc citizens DON,T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF EX PATS EU CITIZENS,



this proves to me anyway, if no one else how you know absolutely jack about us.



musin



long live the kktc



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 01:29

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Message 35 of 62 in Discussion

mark message 33:



"may be they think the status quo is sustainable" (sic)



it has been sustained for thirtyfive years without serious challenge

although you have several times remarked that it cannot continue, or some such

...I don't see why not, perhaps it is only for you it cannot?



a failed power-sharing plan like 1960 could result in things worsening,

even if a few misguided expats already calculate their gains in a re-uni deal



though with a chasm between the two sides, it's improbable

but in case you forgot I'll remind you again:





gc side



single state

control all the airspace

restitution

one man one vote





cypriot turk side



self-governing provinces

separate a.t.c.

compensation

turkish guarantee



sporty


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 685

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 01:35

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Message 36 of 62 in Discussion

i'm with you on this one andre,not in the month of sundays will they agree on a settlement,too far apart unfortunately.



Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 02:16

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Message 37 of 62 in Discussion

Andre message 21:

"would you believe that a punter on another thread actually said something like he wished



the orams business was over one way or the other "so we know where we stand" (as if) "



What do you mean by this?



Reproman


Joined: 05/06/2008
Posts: 252

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 02:25

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Message 38 of 62 in Discussion

The part I am most interested in is:

IF the UK court decides to carry out this civil action against the Orams as per the ROC ruling, ( which seems will be the most likey result after the EU judgement )...



Will Turkey step in and pay the Compenstion?



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 13:21

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Message 39 of 62 in Discussion

reproman postings 37 and 38:



think we might be "chasing our tails" if we believe we'll see a decisive outcome of any sort

even the orams lawyers doubt the endgame for this single case will be the end of the story

as regards rulings and judgements, always remember turkey holds the military trump card

and on previous form they will probably do what they want ultimately



as regards the unlikely event of a re-uni deal between the two very different cypruses,

ismet/elko 2 suggested any deal's propects for survival are pretty slim on past form



does this mean I should be labelled a pessimist? I do hope not!

doesn't a pessimist fear they will fail to get what they want? I want the following:

sun, sea, honey, goats milk products, fresh vegetables, the rare and unexpected

...and north cyprus to slough off its problems, but hold onto its wonder and charm



keep your compensation monies in the bank for now



long live kktc!



Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 17:42

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Message 40 of 62 in Discussion

If no reasonable settlement is reached, my fear is that the TRNC will be slowly crushed into submission and accepting a deal the TC's won't like when it's too late (within 5 years I guesstimate).



I say this because of the financial situation both internally (current budget can't go on & the new government knows it) & internationally and the political situation likewise. The use of EU laws against the TRNC, Turkey and in particular EU citizens with interests in NC will hit the TRNC particularly hard. Turkey future interests lie within the EU and whilst NC is an important issue for Turks, Turkey will have to take a world & pragmatic view. The reduction troops will be used as a gesture, one of a number of cards in it's pack to play.



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 18:41

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Message 41 of 62 in Discussion

hector,



what you say seems reasonable enough, but assumes there is a deal waiting to be done

is it what you are hoping for?



as regards "slowly getting crushed into submission" this may be on someone's agenda,

but this victim seems to be taking an awfully long time to surrender

why do you think that may be?



whether or not turkey's "interests" really lie in the eu they are being set up for the brush-off

would that bother you?



you have obviously though all this through over a long period and have several ideas to boot

what do you think the terms of a "reasonable settlement" might be?



sorry for so many questions, but I would be very interested in your answers to the above



yorgozlu



Joined: 16/06/2009
Posts: 4437

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 18:47

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Message 42 of 62 in Discussion

re msg 40

Hector;

The current situatiation isnt good at all,but how did it manage to survive before EU citizens started coming over?

TRNC is TRNC,and it will remain as TRNC.



We will not comprimise our "freedom" to solve Cyprus issues.

The sooner rest of the world realises this,the sooner it will be solved.

The amount of Turkish troops in Cyprus is in fact to show the rest of the world how strongly their beside us.As they say,"once bitten,twice shy".



cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 19:05

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Message 43 of 62 in Discussion

Yorgozlu.....an interesting standpoint.



I would imagine that the majority of Brits who've bought in NC think that THEIR interests are paramount,and can't contemplate the TRNC or Turkey deserting them in their hour of need.



Unfortunately , I think they may be sadly mistaken when push comes to shove !



girne 29


Joined: 06/12/2007
Posts: 1488

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 19:06

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Message 44 of 62 in Discussion

Hector.



Turkey will never get into the EU ,they know this, but will hope for favoured status. Most people think the EU is too big already.Add to the fact that Turkey must be getting p---d off with Greece and ROC constantly threatening to use the veto.



clarets



Joined: 08/01/2009
Posts: 752

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 19:13

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Message 45 of 62 in Discussion

Cronos,msg 43.........and you speak for ALL Turkey of course ?!!!!!



cronos


Joined: 26/10/2008
Posts: 2093

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 19:17

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Message 46 of 62 in Discussion

Clarets.....read my post again.



I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself.



Think before you type.



Hector


Joined: 26/08/2008
Posts: 2352

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 19:33

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Message 47 of 62 in Discussion

The world can move and things change at a fast pace at times especially when we have been unaware of what has been going on in the background. Like a flower seed, it takes time and then it appears.



What I mean is, take just one aspect, the financial state of the TRNC. It may well be reaching crunch time. Turkey is in talks with the IMF over its own financial situation. I assume that part of the negotiations for a IMF loan would be to go through what Turkey spends on NC (& the cost of the army etc.). Turkey & the IMF must be aware of the gravy train attitude to work & pensions in NC, surely? The threat of & actual strikes (i.e. over the huge overtime bill) will be reported in the worlds press & will do nothing to enhance the TRNC or its financial situation.



Of course I hope for a 'win win' settlement, who doesn't? Patriotism is a fine thing in any country so long as that fine quality is tempered with common sense, reality and consideration for other nations.



Just my thought



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 22:42

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Message 48 of 62 in Discussion

hector,



turkey in trouble? press reports state that gordon brown borrowed 880 billion pounds,

it must be paid back with great pain over the next fifteen years or we'll get hyperinflation



a think tank reports that the real uk unemployed total six million

this is people of working age on one benefit or another...

it means out of every six british people under 65, five are working to pay for the sixth's benefits

britain's industry has dwindled to a shadow, yet we fork out seven billion yearly to give to the eu



labour borrowed from the IMF in the 1970's, so I wouldn't be too smug about turkey's IMF loan!

while eastern europe is in financial chaos as well as "celtic tiger" the republic of ireland...



it is so patronising to tell cypriots what "we" think is best for "them"

after all why did the gc's provoke turkey beyond endurance back in 1974? ah yes, henry kissinger etc!

do remember it wasn't your ikonostasis stripped bare by vandals or your folks killed by a death squad



Turtle


Joined: 28/05/2007
Posts: 2669

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 22:54

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Message 49 of 62 in Discussion

Good evening Pikey.



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
24/08/2009 23:12

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Message 50 of 62 in Discussion

we...ll



technically and locally the good old trnc, m'boy



personally I think it is a **** take to waffle on here gc-style, as well as pitifully naive



or are you suggesting that the host country is really the ghastly republic of "cyprus"?



ps your member's profile uses the old name, the town has been called girne since 1974



a freudian slip perhaps



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 00:29

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Message 51 of 62 in Discussion

re 34



>>You know very little about TCs<<



OK, I'll put my seven years of face to face encounters with TCs - some of whom shaped Cyprus as it is now, and my daily encounters with 'em into the "round file" ..... NOT



>>you state to waz and let me quote you (BUT I THINK THEY most trnc citizens DON,T WORRY TOO MUCH ABOUT THE PLIGHT OF EX PATS EU CITIZENS, <<



and I stand by it.. and you left off the inverted commas around "TRNC" and "citizens" when you "quoted" me..



re 35 Andre_514



another one that misquotes- by omitting emphasis - "naughty".. and btw "TRNC" has "existed" for 27 yrs..and during that time - please tell me which UN resolution has been overturned re it's "legally invalid" status? Has the ECHR suddenly decided that Turkey is no longer responsible?



As things still stand TURKEY is paying BIG TIME, and unsustainably. A settlement on Cyprus is desperately what modern TR needs.



Your arguments are demonstrably 6 years out of date..



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 00:36

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Message 52 of 62 in Discussion

Andre_514



re 39 >>always remember turkey holds the military trump card



and on previous form they will probably do what they want ultimately <<



Hmm.. and do you pay attention to any ECHR findings.... ? TR has.. in the end.. Some clues:

Property

Freedom of Movement



Are you suggesting TR will do as they please ? Your Realpolitik naivety is showing through LOUD and PROUD..



>>as regards the unlikely event of a re-uni deal between the two very different cypruses,

ismet/elko 2 suggested any deal's propects for survival are pretty slim on past form <<



Ismet and you "forget" what has been achieved in Ireland and the Balkans..



>>long live kktc!<<





mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 00:46

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Message 53 of 62 in Discussion

Andre _514



re 48



>>it is so patronising to tell cypriots what "we" think is best for "them" <<



You do that quite often, too.. ! :o



>>after all why did the gc's provoke turkey beyond endurance back in 1974? ah yes, henry kissinger etc! <<



So you know part of the answer... do not dismiss it so lightly.. The Cypriots were pawns - their welfare wasn't as important as maintaining Cyprus as a giant aircraft carrier for NATO.... and free of Soviet "influence"



>>do remember it wasn't your ikonostasis stripped bare by vandals or your folks killed by a death squad<<

Well you can keep using that as an excuse or "wake up" in the 21ST Century and see TR and GR trading, their current leaders being "close" personally, and Cyprus being too small a reason to screw things up..



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 00:55

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Message 54 of 62 in Discussion

mmmmmm



i believe you misunderstood me ,i said you know jack ,that means you know nothing .



you may be able to fool some of the people on here,but not all ,eh.



and yes my friend LONG LIVE THE KKTC.



musin



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 01:42

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Message 55 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Musin



re msg 55



>> believe you misunderstood me ,<<



don't think so..



<


Oh, and there was me thinking English was first first language - silly me..



Long live reality checks, I say..



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 01:45

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Message 56 of 62 in Discussion

Wow ! How did I manage those italics?!



BTW Musin, lest you try to misinterpret .. I believe the declaration of "TRNC" set back the TC cause for decades, and gave /gives GCs the ability to "beat TCs over the head" - from a legal / political perspective.



andre 514


Joined: 31/03/2008
Posts: 1163

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 12:48

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Message 57 of 62 in Discussion

mark messages 53 and 54,



so cyprus was meant to serve as a giant "nato aircraft carrier"?

thought akrotiri sovereign base already fulfilled that role many years earlier!

and of course britain itself was labelled "airstrip one" by george orwell in his 1948 book

...but there is nothing much wrong being loyal to nato, unlike greece and south cyprus



"cyprus too small a reason to screw things up":

think palestine, ulster, south ossetia, kosovo, rwanda...the list is quite considerable

ireland does seem to be pacified now, the correct medicine being permanent partition



and what is wrong with "realpolitik" if the alternative is "unrealpolitik"?

...but I don't believe you meant to say that,

perhaps you were really thinking of "self interest" instead:



and on that score most of us on planet earth must plead guilty, however it is dressed up!



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 13:12

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Message 58 of 62 in Discussion

Dear Andre_514



re msg 58



>>so cyprus was meant to serve as a giant "nato aircraft carrier"?



thought akrotiri sovereign base already fulfilled that role many years earlier! <<



Cast your mind back, Andre .. the British denied Cyprus independence - and even polarised the ethnicities to ENSURE it didn't lose that "carrier"..



>>"cyprus too small a reason to screw things up": <<



Hmm, AGAIN, you possibly misinterpret my response.. I meant that the interests of the locals was NOT in the big powers national interests....making sure the Soviets didn't get a foothold in the Eastern Med WAS !



Ireland? Partition ? Hmm IF you knew your demographics, you realise that the foxy Brits can see that it won't be long before the Nationalists in NI outnumber the Loyalists and a referendum might bring about the end of the Union... The wily Nationalists know that, too ;)





You ignored WHY I referred to your naivety re Realpolitik - I think we both know that self-interest isn't on *my*



mmmmmm



Joined: 19/12/2008
Posts: 8398

Message Posted:
25/08/2009 13:14

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Message 59 of 62 in Discussion

( cont from 59 )



agenda ;) .. You have tried to assertain that often enough.. Have you noticed I don't question yours ?!



MUSIN M


Joined: 26/06/2008
Posts: 1352

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 19:07

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Message 60 of 62 in Discussion

mmmmmmmmmm



you should wake up son ,firstly turkish is my mother tongue and secondly what we talking here



double negatives .



you should stop trying to be too smart,and stop conversing to yourself,let me reiterate you know nothing



or is it anything about tc,s or cyprus.



i bet you can do a smiley too.



long live the kktc.





musin



tattlad


Joined: 13/12/2008
Posts: 479

Message Posted:
26/08/2009 21:10

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Message 61 of 62 in Discussion

I think the British ruling was quite right, given that the south of Cyprus should never have been allowed to join the EU on the protocol 10, it clearly states that only the whole of Cyprus ( a united one) could be allowed to join the EU, so it was a corrupt decission to allow the GC's to join without ther TC's, just another case of the EU doing what siuts them and not sticking by the rules they set out, personaly I'll be over the moon if the UK the the hell out of the EU to be honest.



WAZ-24-7



Joined: 18/10/2008
Posts: 695

Message Posted:
27/08/2009 00:36

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Message 62 of 62 in Discussion

Msg 33



mmmmmm

late response I am afraid. However.

I recollect no such reasoning why the ROC are not supportive of Mr Apostolides litigation. I do however see clear advantage for offering support. Perhaps you might substantiate your own stance.



My point upon extradition is not directed at the Orams but towards the distinct possibility that EU citizens in breach of ROC laws may well be extradited to the ROC for trial in that State. EU citizens in the TRNC would be clear and soft targets. Political points could easily be scored against the TRNC and the extradition threat would further intimidate TRNC residents/investors/visitors that are also EU citizens.



I beg to differ with your could not care less sumise of TRNC citizens. I fear that you are clearly out of touch with TRNC citizens in general. We are not in 2004 now.



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